1. Comment #77080 by samratpathania on October 8, 2007 at 11:55 am

I thought overall this was a fairly unbiased documentary.

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2. Comment #77085 by radiohead on October 8, 2007 at 12:05 pm

i watched the first clip,

wow this is pretty daft stuff.

that theologian needs to read some biology books.,

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3. Comment #77086 by Bonzai on October 8, 2007 at 12:06 pm

Yeah, the voice over is kind of annoying, it sounds like a computer synthesized voice from an older generation of voice mails.

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4. Comment #77089 by chauvinj on October 8, 2007 at 12:18 pm

I'll agree, I could've went without the interviewer/voice over but overall it was a well done documentary.

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5. Comment #77091 by Fouad Boussetta on October 8, 2007 at 12:35 pm

*Pretty good documentary!

*Interestingly, Tom Harpur (the theologian) wrote "The Pagan Christ", in which he explains that there never was a historical Jesus. I think he's emotionally attached to his faith.

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6. Comment #77092 by onlysky on October 8, 2007 at 12:35 pm

Does anyone else get sick of the way the atheist position is ALWAYS couched in religious terms in these interviews and tv spots… "Born again atheist" "evangelistic atheist", "preaching the atheist gospel", "Greydon Square finds his congregation" "His flock lines up to get a copy of his latest sermon."

Maybe the reporters are trying to be funny, maybe they are just that uncreative and unwilling to think of phrasing that would accurately reflect atheism, or maybe they do it intentionally and maliciously to make atheism look like just another religion.

Whatever the reason is, it's really annoying and inaccurate.

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7. Comment #77095 by kelphis on October 8, 2007 at 12:48 pm

Ignoramous and chief!!! LOL that was hillarious Sam.

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8. Comment #77098 by Bonzai on October 8, 2007 at 12:56 pm

I find it astonishing that so many people seem to think that it is somehow natural to believe in some religion and atheism is an anomaly.

I never got that impression in my experience. Most people I know and grow up with are not religious, and they are not "atheists" in the sense that they don't even think they need to make a statement of their non belief, it is just their natural state of being.

After I came to Canada most people I met are again "naturally" atheistic. I know Jews, Christians and muslims but most of whom are only nominal believers by virtue of cultural affiliations. Among the vast majority of people I met it is almost a given that no one is religious, I remember we used to hang out with this born again Christian in my university class to ask him all kinds of questions and shaked our heads incredulously. We hanged out with him because a deeply religious person was a curiosity to us (and of course he also happened to be a nice person too).

I am actually quite surprised to hear people from Toronto saying they have been horribly oppressed by religion and even attacked for lack of belief.

There is a nagging suspicion in my mind that perhaps this is yet another manifestation of our deep seated "U.S. envy". It is as if we need to exaggerate our problem with religion in order to be more like the Americans because religion is big problem in south of our border. Of course this happens subconsciously. "U.S. envy" is a very strange and unique Canadian disorder, it is difficult to explain it to the non Canadians on this site but I am sure fellow Canucks would know what I am talking about. But then maybe I need to get out more.

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9. Comment #77121 by Dog Boots on October 8, 2007 at 1:50 pm

Am I the only one who felt that atheism got even cooler when talked about in semi-rastafari?

Nice program. Hilarious comment by Sam about the "Ignoramus in Chief".

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10. Comment #77128 by prettygoodformonkeys on October 8, 2007 at 1:56 pm

8. Comment #77098 by Bonzai
I don't see it as "U.S. envy", but as evangelism in a new stage of defensiveness. The religious lecture circuit knows no borders, so they all start to sound the same, the same as all the books they read - that's how they can all agree on such fantastic convolutions.

6. Comment #77092 by onlysky
They don't know any other way of saying it, because the rhetoric is so completely woven into the fabric of any discourse. They actually can't think outside of the religious framework. It's not that they're not interested in finding new phrasing, they really see it as another religion. Speaking as one who has had to do a lot of painful mental deconstruction work in this area, I think they don't yet see it as something that CAN be deconstructed, so complete is the cultural fabric.

BTW: I was brought up Xtian, lapsed, tried to be born again, tried to escape into Taoism, Zen (was even ordained), reacted by being an angry young man (until the 'young' thing fizzled out) but couldn't escape it until I turned around and faced it with the blowtorch of logic. I don't expect a commentator to do the same work just for a story. I'm just glad it gets air time!

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11. Comment #77181 by robotaholic on October 8, 2007 at 5:17 pm

ONLYSKY, i totally agree with you 100 percent. I don't like even the connotation- humorous or not- that atheism is some sort of religion...

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12. Comment #77187 by Nuclearman on October 8, 2007 at 5:37 pm

The voice over some of you complained about is not just some "at random" voice they have chosen; it is the voice of the interviewer seen early on in the first video clip. When the theologian is interviewed, one sees the black reporter in a chair opposite of him.

The accent on the voice is clearly Jamaican, or something similar, and that matches the ethnicity of the aforementioned reporter.

Call it annoying if you must, but I prefer to look at it as an example of Canada's diversity reflected in the CBC's journalists and journalism.

Ciao.

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13. Comment #77201 by Veronique on October 8, 2007 at 6:23 pm

I am very glad that this got airtime in Canada. The voice-over didn't worry me. It was the voice of the bloke talking to Tom Harpur. I heard a slight lisp in his voice and it lilted, that was all. I found it easy to listen to.

Harpur needs the consolation of religion; I find this sort of position one of the saddest. It's a bankrupt stance and quite possibly the hardest part of his end game. I think Fouad, that people like Harpur get panicky about letting go of that last rope to the shore. That he really feels that he would be casting himself into a sea of despair. He virtually said that, but I don't think he realised it.

Ah, Bonzai, we are going to re-astonished every day:-). I certainly never even bothered referring to myself as atheistic until lately. Australia is pretty secular as is Canada. Even so, I have said to you before that I fear it is changing over here. I just hope it doesn't get out of hand.

I have never heard of this Canadian disorder of 'US envy' before. I understand what you are saying here but how does it play out in other spheres of Canadian living? Maybe you can't explain it to me, but can you try? Has it to do with proximity? If so then I am glad I live on a ruddy big island.

I love 'Ignoramus in Chief':-).

onlysky. Yes, I get sick of it and every time I hear those sorts of phrases/descriptions it grates. Like PGFM I think it will only go away when rational atheism is the default position for more than just us. I really liked the basement meeting. Excellent. Maybe we should all aspire to get basement meetings together. And I like that it is a basement; how wonderfully subversive that is:-)

I thoroughly enjoyed this doco and commend CBC for it.
V

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14. Comment #77247 by macros_man on October 8, 2007 at 8:45 pm

Bonzai - I know exactly what you mean.

There's lots of different cultures in toronto - and lots of religions... but there doesn't seem to be much tension, like there is in the US - not in equal measure to the response of atheism in Canada.

However... problems might very well be burgeoning with things like the re-hashing of the right for catholic schools to get public money... and with people vying for public schools of all religious denominations...

We also have a problem with the Conservative government fueling the flames of religious intolerance, a bit... but of course - it's nothing like in the US... and in Toronto, we don't seem in nearly bad shape as they are in the West... with respect to religion issues.

But while most torontonians seem "too polite" to really discuss the issue... I think that we could be headed for troubles down the road unless our government champions secularism, and ensures it pushes out things like religious schools and catholic statehood.

We have a lot of foreign people coming to Canada, and bringing their dogma with them... and you'd probably be amazed at how many people hold really, really strange beliefs here... but I think the religion will largely fizzle out in a few generations of good ol' canadian indifference.

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15. Comment #77261 by jagmarz on October 8, 2007 at 10:27 pm

Didn't the kids' camp freak anyone else out?

Most of these kids aren't old enough to make Rational decisions. At their age kids should be curious, not certain! So all their testimonials are just Jesus Camp all over again from the other side.

Sad evidence of Atheist dogma, exactly what we should be avoiding.

-- Mario

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16. Comment #77270 by dlitt on October 8, 2007 at 11:29 pm

Comment #77098 by Bonzai on October 8, 2007 at 12:56 pm

"U.S. envy" is a very strange and unique Canadian disorder...

I've lived here in Canada for 48 of my 50 years. I've never heard of such a thing. Not in Western Canada - must be an Eastern disorder.

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17. Comment #77272 by dlitt on October 8, 2007 at 11:45 pm

15. Comment #77261 by jagmarz on October 8, 2007 at 10:27 pm

Most of these kids aren't old enough to make Rational decisions. At their age kids should be curious, not certain! So all their testimonials are just Jesus Camp all over again from the other side.

Sad evidence of Atheist dogma, exactly what we should be avoiding.

How naive. I'm sure they were not hollered at and brought to tears by threats of eternal dictatorial sky-worship. They are given the seeds of reason and allowed to decide for themselves without pressure from their instructors and peers. "Dogma" - nonsense! It is a terrific camp - I just wish it was in the West, too.

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18. Comment #77327 by onlysky on October 9, 2007 at 4:24 am

15. Comment #77261 by jagmarz on October 8, 2007 at 10:27 pm
Didn't the kids' camp freak anyone else out?

Most of these kids aren't old enough to make Rational decisions. At their age kids should be curious, not certain! So all their testimonials are just Jesus Camp all over again from the other side.

Sad evidence of Atheist dogma, exactly what we should be avoiding.



No, It doesn't freak me out. Know why? Because atheism is not a religion or a dogma! Does it freak you out when kids start professing that they don't believe in Santa Clause? Or the Tooth Fairy? There is no indoctrination into this kind of lack of belief.

It's amazing how even other atheists fall into the trap of thinking about atheism in religious terms. "Well, they are all gathering together in a group and talking about stuff they feel strongly about, so that must somehow be religious." If that were true, then every hobby group on meetup.com would have to be called a religion.

Stop confusing "being religious" with those who are just being passionate, and wanting a sense of community.

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19. Comment #77328 by onlysky on October 9, 2007 at 4:29 am

Can someone tell me how to reply to someone's comments so that the quote I'm replying to gets put in that neat, easy to read, box?

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20. Comment #77329 by Logicel on October 9, 2007 at 4:29 am

Well done doc--I enjoyed the narrator's style and voice.

Dr. Khalid saying that he finally realized that God was like an elderly father to whom he needed to say goodbye was inspiring.

Khalid's wife and Harpur show how entangled religious belief becomes within a human, and how difficult it is to disengage the belief from the person without that person feeling overwhelmed, disheartened, and depressed--similar to a withdrawal from drugs, alcohol, etc. Better to prevent such entanglement from happening in the first place.

Harpur looked drugged to me, glazed eyes, monotone voice, etc. His saying that atheists have no proof there isn't a God shows how truly wonky his 'reasoning' is. The burden of proof is on the shoulders of the faithful--which being the faithful there is no need for proof, they got faith, who needs evidence. So, Harpur was intellectually dishonest in that regard. In addition, Harpur knows in advance that he would consider life without God as being bleak--what do you expect from a guy that claims to know the mind and will of God without any evidence? He just knows. I found it very difficult not to throw up in my mouth listening to Harpur, reminds me of my reaction to McGrath's waffling description of his Christ addiction. Moderate Christians are creepy.

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21. Comment #77331 by Logicel on October 9, 2007 at 4:33 am

onlysky, check the comment Posting Guidelines (for using HTML code like for blockquotes) which are located right above the window for commenting.

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22. Comment #77333 by onlysky on October 9, 2007 at 4:41 am

21. Comment #77331 by Logicel on October 9, 2007 at 4:33 am
onlysky, check the comment Posting Guidelines (for using HTML code like for blockquotes)

Thanks:)

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23. Comment #77336 by Logicel on October 9, 2007 at 4:45 am

jagmarz wrote: Most of these kids aren't old enough to make Rational decisions
_____

Age of reason is seven years of age--these kids were at least that age. Coddling of kids, treating them as they can't be reasoned with, drives me up the friggin' wall. What a wonderful sight of that young girl saying I don't believe in God, and how envious I am that I was not allowed to do that many years ago when I was an atheist-in-the closet 7 year old.

STOP TREATING KIDS LIKE THEY ARE DUMB HUMANS JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE KIDS.

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24. Comment #77395 by SilentMike on October 9, 2007 at 7:47 am

It's not a bad documentary, all in all. That theologian was a waste of time but I guess you have to put someone on. All the better for our side if he doesn't have anything extremely intelligent or convincing to say.

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25. Comment #77545 by Dog Boots on October 9, 2007 at 3:34 pm

Didn't the kids' camp freak anyone else out?

Most of these kids aren't old enough to make Rational decisions. At their age kids should be curious, not certain! So all their testimonials are just Jesus Camp all over again from the other side.

What brand of nonsense is that? Surely children can make rational decisions, and certainly that should be incouraged.

What they're learning there (as far as can be seen in the video) is exactly to NOT accept dogma. If you want to call that a dogma in itself, then...

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26. Comment #77688 by ThomasB on October 10, 2007 at 7:09 am

Some random thoughts:

My overall impressions are favourable. However, as someone who has never embraced any religion, I really didn't identify with most of the "atheists" shown in this program. Their investment in their atheist identity seems closely tied to their recovery from religion.

I surely don't concur with Bonzai's thesis about "U.S. Envy" animating many Canadians in their concerns about faith. Beyond the cultural mosaic of Toronto, one can still hear, now and then, the hoof beats of a crusading and oppressive Christianity. I suspect that at least half of my neighbours here in rural, central Ontario would be happy to see creationism taught in science class. And why would someone living in Canada feel any "envy" for the USA?! Certainly not for their beer.
____________

It was hard to listen to Tom Harpur, whose God is manifested in the "hummingbirds in the hollyhocks." It would have been nice to have seen this fluffery countered with Darwin's intellectually robust flourish:

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.

I liked the voice-over. Clifton Joseph is something of a renaissance man and is perhaps our unofficial dub poet laureate. His CBC bio reflects an interesting body of work:

Clifton Joseph is a reporter for CBC News: Marketplace, CBC Television's award-winning prime-time investigative consumer show.

Joseph has written for The Toronto Star, The Globe and Mail and Contrast newspaper, and for Toronto Life, Fuse, Freewheellin' and This magazines.

In radio, he has been a producer and host for Ryerson Campus station CKLN's flagship current affairs program Saturday Morning Live, worked for CIUT, and written and reported for CBC Radio programs, including Morningside, Ideas, The Arts Tonight, The Entertainers and CBL News.

In television, Joseph has been a producer and contributing interviewer for TVO's literary show Imprint and technology show The Future. At CTV, he worked as a pop culture columnist and movie reviewer for Canada AM and music/culture reporter for Entertainment Now. At the CBC, he co-wrote the Thick and Thin black comedy special and hosted the 2000 Gemini Awards (industry night). He has also reported for Undercurrents, CBC News: Sunday and CBC News: The National, as well as served as a panelist/contributor for Face Off, Big Life with Daniel Richler, Sunday Morning, Midday, Anne Petrie's Talk TV, The Lead and Jonovision.

As poet, Joseph is one of the founders of the dub poetry movement in Canada. He has performed widely across Canada, the United States, the United Kingdom and the Caribbean. His poems have been anthologized in numerous written and audio compilations, including De Dub Poets with poets Lilian Allen and Devon Haughton with the Truths & Rights Reggae Band, Poetry Nation, Vehicule Press's Paen to the spoken/word-performance poetry movement, and Word Up, Virgin Records' CD of North American spoken word poets and the accompanying Word Up poem-video series commissioned by and aired on Much Music. He's published Metropolitan Blues, a book of poems; released Oral Trans/missions, an album of poetry and music and the video Pimps.

Joseph is the recipient of two Gemini Awards for Best Writing in an Information Program or Series, a Freddie Award from the International Health and Medical Media Awards and a silver medal award from the New York TV Festival for his work on Undercurrents; and a Silver Fleece Award from the Chicago Film Festival for an Imprint documentary on dub poetry. He is also a two-time winner of the Best Dub Poet Award and recipient of The Peter Tosh Memorial Award from the Canadian Reggae Music Awards as well as Juno and CASBY nominations for his poetry.

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27. Comment #77709 by quill on October 10, 2007 at 8:48 am

I don't like having atheism branded an "opposite belief".

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