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Sunday, October 21, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document The greatest debate

by Jill Rowbotham, The Australian

Thanks to Russell Blackford for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22595221-28737,00.html

God is back in the discussion about life, the universe and everything, Jill Rowbotham writes. After decades of peaceful coexistence, Christians and non-believers are at each other's ideas ... and throats

INSISTENTLY, sometimes stridently, atheists have chalked up gains for their cause in the past year or so and other debates have ceded airtime, newspaper space, book sales and public attention to the intellectuals who have made it their business to push for the abandonment of religion.

They take this quest very personally. Both Richard Dawkins, author of The God Delusion, and Christopher Hitchens, whose God is Not Great made an equally large splash, quote stories from their childhood about the moment they realised the folly of the Christian faith. Australia's best known atheist, Phillip Adams, has released a revised edition of his 1980s book on the subject, Adams vs God, the Rematch. According to Adams: "There was not a second in my life when religion ever seemed feasible, so I 'know' in the same way a religious fanatic 'knows'."

Believers have fought back, most recently English writer John Cornwell with his forthcoming Darwin's Angel, a "Dear Richard (Dawkins) letter" whose aim is to be vigorous but not heavy-handed in rebuttal.

"Dawkins is reluctant to grant that religion can be in any circumstance a basis for human flourishing. There is no distinction in his view between tolerant religion and fundamentalism since all faith is against reason and therefore a source of ignorance, prejudice and ultimately violence," he writes.

The free-for-all over the credibility of religion, and particularly of Christianity, is hard to manage because the deeply personal is only part of the story. It is greatly complicated by elements of institutional religion, such as church politics and scandal, and theological arguments.

Surely what is true in a believer's heart deserves respect? Hang on, say the atheists, out of that apparently benign foundation have come intolerance and the determination to impose belief. That leads to wars, they add, as well as brutality and prejudice, and entrenched moralities and propaganda that burden the whole society, such as the abortion debate and taxpayer funding for church schools.

Well, argue the religious, the range of belief and theological interpretation is vast: treat us as homogenous and you will have missed the point. And while Christianity's in-fights over biblical interpretation seem mostly irrelevant to non-believers, ferocious disagreements within Islam are not.

Neither is the abhorrence its most fundamentalist adherents feel for the West. In one sense, this is where the atheist resurgence in the West begins, with the spectacular declaration of war by Muslim fanatics on September 11, 2001, which transformed (among many other things) the presidency of George W. Bush and made Osama bin Laden a household name.

"It's big business because of the clash of civilisations, Muslim v Christian, which is getting more strident," Adams says of the appearance of a slew of books about atheism. "Many of us would say that you have Bush and bin Laden both convinced they are on a mission from God."

Writer and commentator Emily Maguire, who has made the area of belief a specialty, agrees the resurgence in atheism is a response to religious violence and also to the attempt to exercise political muscle. "I think (it) is a reaction to increasingly aggressive religious forces trying to influence and direct public life," she says.

Her recent novel, an absorbing read called The Gospel According to Luke, is about an atheist who helps women obtain abortions, then falls in love with a born-again Christian.

Melbourne academic and author of Against Religion Tamas Pataki agrees the new anti-God mood answers an "external threat coming from the upsurge of Islamist violence, which is closely linked by commentators with Islamic fundamentalism. The internal threat is the influence of the fundamentalist and loonier elements of the Christian Right, especially, of course, in Bush's America. I think the latter probably is more worrying to most intellectuals, especially scientists."

So, out came the books, followed by the publicity tours and the writers festivals. Out came the reviews, comment pieces and letters.

Australia's Atheist Foundation president David Nicholls wrote to The Australian last year saying Christianity, Islam and Judaism were the "metaphorical oil lubricating the situation" in the Middle East. "These, all unevidenced and relying solely on infant indoctrination, need recognition as a threat, not just to the region but also to the whole of humanity,' he wrote. "The planet has enough real problems with a looming energy crisis, global warming, overpopulation and failing eco-systems."

After Pamela Bone argued in the same newspaper in January that non-religious people were "fed up with all the talk about the emptiness, the barrenness and lack of meaning in 'secular society"' and chided Kevin Rudd for wearing his religion on his sleeve, another letter writer applauded. Good on her, he said, for "having the guts to stand up for the non-believers who are tired of the politicians who daren't say boo to the fear-laden faithful".

The passion of the attack by Dawkins and others surprised some worldly religious people, such as law professor and Jesuit priest Frank Brennan, who noted in these pages: "Before the publication of Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion, I had presumed that in Western intellectual circles the atheists were ahead on points and that they were little troubled by the doings of those they regarded as well meaning, slightly befuddled religious people.

"I now realise that Dawkins and his ilk are upset even by religious people such as me, perhaps especially by religious people such as me ... Dawkins's 'take home message' is that we should blame 'religion itself, not religious extremism, as though that were some kind of perversion of real, decent religion'."

Partly it is a question of perception, Maguire argues. "I think we're so used to religious belief being treated as beyond analysis and debate that any criticism is perceived as aggressive, angry, militant," she says.

"Language and rhetorical approaches that would be considered mild in a discussion of political ideology are considered hostile and aggressive when used to discuss religion."

Not all Christians are dismayed. John Shelby Spong, a retired but still radical American Episcopalian (Anglican) bishop recently in Australia, couldn't be more pleased that the gloves are off at last. "I welcome their books," he told Review during a discussion of Dawkins and Hitchens. "It shifts the debate to exactly where it needs to be. They are people I want to read and be in dialogue with."

Christianity, like many other spheres of life, has its celebrity speaker circuit and Spong has been on it for a long time. He has sparred with Hitchens on US television and dined with Dawkins at New College, Oxford, and is impressed, particularly by Dawkins, whom he calls "completely personable".

"If you are going to have an advocate for the atheistic point of view, he's the one," Spong says.

But the Christianity Dawkins represents in his books and documentaries is the kind Spong rejects. "The difference is that he's convinced that's all there is to Christianity," Spong says.

Spong, who enrages many Christians because he denies the physical resurrection -- which he refers to as "resuscitation" -- has a new book out that describes an alternative for those interested in the historical basis of the New Testament accounts of Jesus. Jesus for the Non-Religious continues Spong's life work, which is to convince Christians -- and anyone else who will listen -- that clinging to 1st-century Christianity makes the 21st-century church irrelevant. He argues that knowing the historical sources of the Bible means some of its detail cannot be taken literally. (He is not the only one who thinks so: there is a wide range of opinion on this issue.)

But, Spong says, the Bible's themes are potentially as powerful as ever.

"I think that God is so much bigger than a theist definition," he says. "The problem is Christianity was shaped in the 1st century when people believed the earth was the centre of the universe. And we live in the 21st century when we have some perception of how small the earth is in the universe. It's a very different world. What I am asking people to do is read the New Testament for what it really says. The Christian faith is so much greater than what we have people talking about today in its popular expression. It's mostly about controlling behaviour. Fundamentally, I have to live a good life because it's worth living, not because I get a reward for doing it or get punished for not doing it."

Like Spong, Uniting Church minister James Haire is unfazed by the atheists' outpourings. The professor of theology at Charles Sturt University in regional NSW sees in the vehemence a recognition that religion is not as easily dismissed as the atheists had assumed. "Some people get angry that there is this interest in religion again," Haire says.

"I think the reaction of the atheists is legitimate because they realise that they are dealing with quite a problem, that there is a big interest in non-institutionalised religion. They believed with the collapse of the institutional religion that faith would disappear."

Certainly, time appears to be on the side of the irreligious. While 68 per cent of Australians identified themselves as Christian in the 2001 census, by 2006 this had dropped to 64 per cent. And the non-believers are getting bolder: the proportion who identified themselves as having no religion was 18.7 per cent in 2006, compared with 16 per cent in 2001.

Haire is surprised by the number who continue to identify themselves as Christians, but in general he takes the figures with a grain of salt. "I think the statistics will fly around back and forth and they don't tell us much; we have not actually got the right measure.

"Religious belief in Australia has to do with personal and community feeling and the institutions come second," he argues. "Religious institutions structured belief but they did not create it. Australians find institutions very helpful but they are not tied to them.

"The atheists know they have a fight on their hands and so the gloves are off. Dawkins and co know what they are doing and in a sense I welcome it: let's get it out in the open."

Whether atheism will make any headway as a result of all this hard work is moot. Adams certainly doesn't think so, despite the efforts of Dawkins, Hitchens and another much-publicised exponent, French philosopher Michel Onfray, author of Atheist Manifesto.

"Atheism is being represented by that unholy trinity aggressively and probably a bit unhelpfully," Adams says. "I think we should turn the thermostat down a bit." He doesn't regard himself as aggressive and argues that in various of his causes the only support he is able to rely on is from nuns and Jesuits. Of the rest he says: "You need the buggers, they are not all Ku Klux Klan. In a pluralist world religious multiculturalism is a fact, so get over it.

"I am not an a-theist (anti-theist) in the sense of being attacking. I look at people who believe with the best of intentions but I think: How can you possibly believe this?' So my original book and its new edition are much more conciliatory. I have long since given up trying to convince people: you cannot reason people out of an irrational belief. Dawkins and Hitchens seem to think they can do it."

Pataki is not too worked up about it, either. "I can't detect in myself the sort of missionary motives that seem to animate Dawkins, for example," he concedes.

Adams and Spong identify one further reason for the heartfelt response to the latest phase of the atheist debate: sheer relief among atheists at finding it publicly acceptable -- even fashionable -- to express the contrary view on religion, despite it having being theoretically permissible for several decades.

"Back in the 1970s and '80s when I was writing about it in newspapers it was outrageous," Adams asserts. Spong agrees. "To be an atheist is not very popular," he says of the US, where he hails from the Bible Belt of southern states that is the power base for the Christian political Right. For example, he says, there is still enough cachet in being religious in the US for expressions of faith to be necessary for a political career. (Likewise, John Howard and Rudd have not found it a liability.)

And in a curious way Spong identifies with the atheist crusade. "Dawkins and Hitchens give these people courage," he says of atheists. "I find when I do a series of lectures people who have been on the outside or the fringes of Christianity come back in. I think what I do is give them courage and that's what Dawkins and Hitchens are saying: it's not that bad to be an atheist."

Adams concurs, and from personal experience. "I was an atheist before I could read, but I read much later in life Bertrand Russell's Why I Am Not a Christian and I just didn't feel lonely all of a sudden," he says.

Comments 1 - 20 of 20 |

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1. Comment #80326 by monkey2 on October 21, 2007 at 10:56 am

 avatarAustralia's best known atheist, Phillip Adams
"Atheism is being represented by that unholy trinity aggressively and probably a bit unhelpfully," Adams says. "I think we should turn the thermostat down a bit......... I have long since given up trying to convince people: you cannot reason people out of an irrational belief."

Perhaps Australia needs a new spokesperson for the 21st century. Someone who is prepared to turn up the heat.

Other Comments by monkey2

2. Comment #80329 by hotshoe on October 21, 2007 at 11:03 am

 avatarIf this is typical of journalism in Australia, then I want to move to Australia! Nice long article, balanced, careful in tone. It sounds as if the various quotations have been taken in context correctly. Too bad about the very first paragraph ("insistently, sometimes stridently") but I would expect that is a grabber to get readers into the article.

Other Comments by hotshoe

3. Comment #80339 by gd_edi on October 21, 2007 at 11:26 am

% Non religious in Australia. Taken from Australian census data. (No religion includes Atheist, Agnostic, Humanist and Rationalist):

Year%
19110.4
19210.5
19330.2
19470.3
19540.3
19610.4
19660.8
19716.7
19768.3
198110.8
198612.7
199112.9
199616.6
200115.5
200618.7


I dont think atheism needs any sort of 'movement', at least in Australia. 40 years since 1966 the non religious percntage has grown from less than 1% to nearly 20%, without an organized effort. In my opinion the trend is just the product of a half decent education system. I have no idea about similar figures in other countries though.

edit: fixed (cheers Quine)

Other Comments by gd_edi

4. Comment #80344 by phil rimmer on October 21, 2007 at 11:47 am

 avatarI will leave Spong in perfect peace if only he would stand up and say-

"Belief is a wholly insufficient reason to decide on the organization of society and its rules of governance."

Were he to believe and proclaim the deep morality of that, I would be truly happy.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

5. Comment #80347 by Flagellant on October 21, 2007 at 11:55 am

 avatarThanks for nominating this article, Russell Blackford. It makes me pleased about Australian politics. Mind you, when you've got people like Pell (nutty RC archbishop) and Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali (even nuttier Muslim cleric) - and that's just in Sydney - you need some common sense. I'll be following the election, Howard v. Rudd, with interest.

I'm not sure that I can entirely agree that there has been
...sheer relief among atheists at finding it publicly acceptable - even fashionable - to express the contrary view on religion, despite it having being theoretically permissible for several decades.
I certainly found some time ago that even the mildest criticism that I made of religious belief was received with hostility. Now, it's much more acceptable and I think that Richard Dawkins, in particular, has done much to improve the situation. I remember seeing a letter of his in the Times, about twenty years ago, that was very critical of religion. The letter caused one of my neighbours to froth at the mouth. (Or was it my comment that I agreed with RD's analysis?)

It has always seemed absurd to me that religion has had such a privileged place in life and it's nice to hear people like Spong being so conciliatory. But it's going to be much more difficult getting the Mohammedans to think the same way.



Truly, god is grott, merdeiful.

Other Comments by Flagellant

6. Comment #80354 by BAEOZ on October 21, 2007 at 12:23 pm

 avatarHow do you get an article put up on the site? I sent an article about the vulnerability and possible extinction of the Tassy Devil to contact@richarddawkins.net but like all the articles I've sent it hasn't appeared. If that's editorial policy, so be it. But maybe I used the wrong email address. Anybody know how this is done.


Good article, but I worry more about the Tassy Devils here in Aus than RD toning down his necessary work.

Other Comments by BAEOZ

7. Comment #80357 by sent2null on October 21, 2007 at 12:27 pm

 avatarI agree hotshoe, the article was refreshingly well written. Presenting point and counter point of the opposing positions though toward the end it did lean a bit toward the religious views IMO.

That said, I recently read an article on the rise of population as correlated to IQ, the estimates are that average IQ will drop world wide as the rate of births will outstrip our ability to educate the individuals being born...this does not bode well for a continued rise in rationalism as there is a known correlation between lack of education and religious belief. I did realize one factor that may aid us in avoiding this reversal of global rationalism and that is *this* network of connected computers. The internet allows knowledge to be accessible in corners of the world that are otherwise remote, though much of it can be sequestered from view (as is being done in China for example) knowledge has an amazing tenaciousness, it just gets out there. If we are successful in curbing the global birth rates in the largest population centers by promoting education, along with access to education through the internet we may just be able to continue the upward trend of rationalism as population increases while at the same time slowing the rate of population increase which is also sorely needed if we are to preserve a livable environment.

Regards,

Other Comments by sent2null

8. Comment #80359 by Quine on October 21, 2007 at 12:38 pm

 avatargd_edi, (re comment #80339)

If you put in your HTML table code all on a single line, the preprocessor won't put in all the line breaks that make that big blank area above the table in the finished comment.

Other Comments by Quine

9. Comment #80363 by quill on October 21, 2007 at 1:00 pm

 avatarIt's meant to seem objective, but the article is clearly slanted. It cites one religious person after another in their criticism of Dawkins' views, but never cites how Dawkins responds to that criticism.

Other Comments by quill

10. Comment #80364 by TrashcanMan79 on October 21, 2007 at 1:06 pm

How do you get an article put up on the site?


I am wondering the same thing...

Other Comments by TrashcanMan79

11. Comment #80379 by Veronique on October 21, 2007 at 2:39 pm

 avatar6. Comment #80354 by

I have linked articles over the months and never had them put up and have never received an acknowledgment of receipt either.

I think the address is the correct one. Why don't you ask Russell which address he used?

Then again, it might be editorial policy. I am just not sure at all what goes on.

While you want to link the Devil's article, did you click on the related article and read about the lack of genetic diversity that maybe underlies the spread of this contagious cancer? That the Devils' immune system can't distinguish this as 'foreign' and therefore doesn't counter attack.

Sequestering healthy animals on islands is one way, but genetic diversity is likely to reduce further.

Big problem indeed!

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

12. Comment #80385 by Shuggy on October 21, 2007 at 3:12 pm

 avatargd_edi:

Australia:
199616.6%
200115.5
200618.7


New Zealand:
199626.1%
200129.6
200634.7

And the pavlova, and Phar Lap, nyar nyar nyar!

(Actually it has a lot to do with "No religion" being the first box you can tick on the census paper.)

Other Comments by Shuggy

13. Comment #80387 by admin on October 21, 2007 at 3:34 pm

 avatarYou can send me articles at design@richarddawkins.net for consideration. Thanks!

Josh

Other Comments by admin

14. Comment #80394 by Flagellant on October 21, 2007 at 3:57 pm

 avatarI remember the last (UK) census form I completed. The 'none' box was the last (or the last but one before 'other'). I left the whole section blank and there was no comeback. It pissed me off that 'none' didn't come first.

If they had put 'none' first, I'd have been more inclined to tick that. 'None' is, of course, the default position and should always precede the 'wishful thinking' answers. Next time...



Religion - an activity for consenting adults in private.

Other Comments by Flagellant

15. Comment #80404 by Russell Blackford on October 21, 2007 at 4:37 pm

Some weeks back, I attended a session where Phillip Adams was talking about atheism (with a few others), and I managed to talk with Adams briefly at his book signing afterwards.

He seems to agree with Dawkins about almost everything, but thinks that religion can be benign. He makes quite a point about how the grassroots Catholic religious are not necessarily anything like their arch-conservative leaders, such as the pope and Cardinal Pell - which is doubtless true. I wish his tone was more reflective of the fact that he is almost 100 per cent with Dawkins on the detailed issues. In the talk, he seemed to want to distance himself from Dawkins - but then agreed with Dawkins on point after point. I don't think he appreciated it when I half-jokingly chided him about this.

None of which is to imply that anyone on the freethinking "side" has to agree with all the views of anyone else. Zeus knows, I'd have to be distancing myself a long way from Hitchens' views on Irag and Islam.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

16. Comment #80481 by lukerazor on October 22, 2007 at 12:31 am

 avatar"Adams concurs, and from personal experience. "I was an atheist before I could read, but I read much later in life Bertrand Russell's Why I Am Not a Christian and I just didn't feel lonely all of a sudden," he says."

Ah, me too, that was a great little book

Other Comments by lukerazor

17. Comment #80612 by Vaal on October 22, 2007 at 10:24 am

 avatarSpong? Not related to Spock, I suppose?

Other Comments by Vaal

18. Comment #80695 by Steve Wrathall on October 22, 2007 at 4:40 pm

 avatar>>Australia's Atheist Foundation president David Nicholls wrote to The Australian last year saying Christianity, Islam and Judaism were the "metaphorical oil lubricating the situation" in the Middle East. "These, all unevidenced and relying solely on infant indoctrination, need recognition as a threat, not just to the region but also to the whole of humanity,' he wrote. "The planet has enough real problems with a looming energy crisis, global warming, overpopulation and failing eco-systems."

Sliding in the obligatory environmental scare stories cheapen Mr Nicholls' valid criticisms of religions. These prophecies of doom are no more real than were Paul Ehrlich's predictions of 100s of millions dying of famine in the 1970s or the Club of Rome in 1972 saying that oil would run out by 1992. Nothing like these happened. Instead science has bought about a cornucopia, with once famine-ridden regions becoming net food exporters. The biggest threat after religion is the retreat from fossil fuels which underpin our economies.

Other Comments by Steve Wrathall

19. Comment #80844 by idmaer on October 23, 2007 at 7:25 am

 avatarRe comments by hotshoe and others about our Australian press, I agree with quill that the article has a pro-religion flavour, and in this it pretty much reflects the newspaper itself, which I sometimes dub The Catholic Australian because of the type of thinking evident in its editorialising and choice of contributors and, more sinisterly, in the choice of stories it gives space to. Steve Wrathall would likely approve of its enthusiasm for printing anything said by a climate change sceptic anywhere in the world. When The God Delusion appeared, it cleverly commissioned a double review to give the appearance of balance, and gave the reviews the prominence warranted by the TGD phenomenon, but contrived to find an atheist who largely rejected Dawkins' message and made sure to say some nice things about religious folk.

On the plus side, it is a national newspaper - really our only one - and it does deal with real issues and have a broad international coverage, and for these reasons I keep reading it, though not usually with any great anticipation.

Other Comments by idmaer

20. Comment #80878 by Shrunk on October 23, 2007 at 9:48 am

 avatarSpong:

I think that God is so much bigger than a theist definition. The problem is Christianity was shaped in the 1st century when people believed the earth was the centre of the universe. And we live in the 21st century when we have some perception of how small the earth is in the universe. It's a very different world. What I am asking people to do is read the New Testament for what it really says. The Christian faith is so much greater than what we have people talking about today in its popular expression. It's mostly about controlling behaviour. Fundamentally, I have to live a good life because it's worth living, not because I get a reward for doing it or get punished for not doing it.


This seems only slightly different from the atheist position. I'm not sure what would be lost by simply expunging the concept of God altogether.

Other Comments by Shrunk
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