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Sunday, October 21, 2007 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Egypt's fight against female circumcision clashes with tradition

by PhyOrg.com

Reposted from:
http://www.physorg.com/news112154986.html

Twice circumcised, Wafaa Helmy swore her own daughters would never suffer the same fate. But one night her own mother secretly took her first-born to go under the knife in their Upper Egypt village.

Despite pronouncements to the contrary by both Muslim and Christian clerics, she believes, as do many Egyptians, that this "purification" is a religious duty that helps preserve a girl's virtue and honour.

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The social stigma of not having her granddaughter's labia and/or clitoris cut off was just too strong for her.

Official Egyptian statistics say 97 percent of women aged 15 to 49, Christians and Muslims alike, have undergone what the UN prefers to call female genital mutilation, or FGM.

Women here feel they are guarantors of a certain social order and few dare question a tradition that goes back to the time of the pharaohs, in spite of the stories of bleeding, infection and other nefarious effects.

In June, following the death of 12-year-old Bedur Ahmed Shaker, Health Minister Hatem al-Gabali issued a decree banning every doctor and member of the medical profession from performing the procedure.

That ban must still be translated into law and could face a tough debate in parliament's next session in November. A ban was already imposed in 1997 but operations were allowed in "exceptional cases."

Female circumcision can cause death through haemorrhaging and later complications during childbirth. It also carries risks of infection, urinary tract problems and mental trauma.

"It's simple: I'm frigid," says Wafaa, attending an information session organised by the Coptic Centre for Education and Development NGO at a church in Bayad al-Arab, south of Cairo.

"It's a big problem with my husband. We argue all the time. I never want to make love. I have no reaction, no feelings, no pleasure," says the 35-year-old Copt who was circumcised twice at the age of 10 because "there was still a little bit left."

Kawkaba Fathi, a Muslim, has found her own way of dealing with the problem.

"I pretend I'm enjoying it to keep my husband happy and it's going much better," she says, her round face placid and framed by a black veil.

Kawkaba's operation was carried out "the Sudanese way," meaning that all her external genital organs were cut off. Traumatised, she decided with her husband not to have the operation done on their three daughters.

Around 60 women, all circumcised, are gathered to listen to a gynaecologist from the NGO.

"Circumcision is a very, very old tradition and has no connection with religion," says Mariam Munib, describing common side effects: haemorrhaging, incontinence, painful sexual intercourse, problems giving birth.

Some women nod in agreement, but others are concerned about what people will say.

"What if the husband rejects my daughter on their wedding night because she hasn't been circumcised," asks one worried mother.

"People have to know if the girl is normal, if (her sexual organs) are too big, or deformed?" says another. She is echoing a belief among many women here that too "prominent" genitals must be cut off -- at least if they're female.

"Do you take your daughter to the doctor to know if her nose or eyes are too big or small? So why would you do it for that part of the body," asks Sister Joanna, the petite and slightly stern Coptic nun who runs the NGO.

The gynaecologist says comparing female and male circumcision is like the difference between clipping a nail and cutting the whole finger off.

The government has even enlisted the country's top religious authorities to drive home the message against what UNICEF describes "one of the most persistent, pervasive and silently endured human rights violations."

Mohammed Sayyed Tantawi, the sheikh of Al-Azhar University, the top Sunni Muslim authority, and Coptic Patriarch Chenouda III, also declared it had no foundation in the religious texts of either Islam or Christianity.

The centre is particularly worried about girls aged eight to 12, prime time for circumcision. Arranging seminars in 15 villages in the deserts of Upper Egypt, workers hand out tea, washing powder and soap to encourage women to come.

Sister Joanna insists there has been progress.

"Ten years ago it was taboo even to say 'female circumcision,'" she says, citing progress in spite of widespread local distrust including rumours she is pushing a Western agenda "to corrupt Egyptian girls."

Comments 1 - 22 of 22 |

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1. Comment #80448 by BAEOZ on October 21, 2007 at 10:03 pm

 avatarPoor buggers. It may not be religious in origin, but religions that treat women as property will encourage or at least turn a blind eye to practices that they believe will stop women "straying" because of their supposed insatiable lust......sick.

Other Comments by BAEOZ

2. Comment #80484 by Dunc-uk on October 22, 2007 at 12:46 am

 avatarIt is horrendous that this vile practise still persists in the modern world, I am not aware of any possible medical benefit for FGM... and I hope that soon the term "male genital mutilation" replaces that of male circumcision. This sort of surgery must be performed on consenting adults only. Ban everything else.

Other Comments by Dunc-uk

3. Comment #80488 by mmurray on October 22, 2007 at 1:21 am

 avatarThere is a discussion in Jarrod Diamond's `The Third Chimpanzee' which sheds light on how this madness may have arisen. It talks about how you would expect a species to evolve if, like ours, it finds itself under evolutionary pressure for the parents to care for the children for longer periods. In our case as we evolved more sophisticated methods of obtaining food it became harder for our children to feed themselves so there was a benefit to both the parents caring for the children for say 10-15 years. The gene (I know it might not be as simple as single gene) that makes the father care for the children will only get passed on if the father is caring for *his* children. The mother, of course, knows they are her children. Some animals evolve systems where after fertilization of the female the vaginal passage is blocked from further attempts at fertilization by a plug of some kind deposited by the male. It would seem the the human chimp evolved a range of (horrible) social systems to achieve the same outcome: control of female reproduction by males.

Before anyone raises the issue note that I don't subscribe to the idea the evolution is some kind of moral justification. The practice of FGM and all the associated notions of `honour' are relics of our past that should be disposed of as quickly as possible.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

4. Comment #80492 by irate_atheist on October 22, 2007 at 1:42 am

 avatarAh, yes, tradition. The finest way of making decisions in the world, even the dead get their say.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

5. Comment #80497 by Nefrubyr on October 22, 2007 at 1:55 am

 avatar
"What if the husband rejects my daughter on their wedding night because she hasn't been circumcised," asks one worried mother.

Then he's a backwards arsehole who supports the sexual abuse of children that results in permanent damage and he deserves to die a virgin. Your daughter deserves better.

Perhaps this would also be a suitable time to point out the benefits of sex before marriage.

Other Comments by Nefrubyr

6. Comment #80511 by tieInterceptor on October 22, 2007 at 3:08 am

 avatardisgusting, I would like to see human right groups get up in arms about this and pulling no punches.

entire nations of unsatisified sexual partners,

maybe there is a relationship somewhere to be found with Islamic fundamentalism... lets take the fun out of life, and make sure womankind is traumatized.

unhealthy minds.

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

7. Comment #80529 by Matt7895 on October 22, 2007 at 4:32 am

 avatarIt almost makes me feel quite violent when I read about female genital manipulation. If somebody ever tried to do that to my wife or daughter I'm really worried about what I might do in response.

Other Comments by Matt7895

8. Comment #80540 by MAS2007 on October 22, 2007 at 5:39 am

 avatarFalse honor and virtue. Does not justify FGM or MGM, any other similar mutilation of non consenting adult must be consider assault and be unlawful.
What I find most revolting is the mothers and grandmothers not protecting their children from this abuse. There should be no debate, this is evil incarnate.

Other Comments by MAS2007

9. Comment #80544 by Barbara on October 22, 2007 at 6:02 am

 avatar
"It's simple: I'm frigid," says Wafaa,...

Understandable under the circumstances.

"It's a big problem with my husband. We argue all the time. I never want to make love. I have no reaction, no feelings, no pleasure," says the 35-year-old Copt who was circumcised twice at the age of 10 because "there was a little bit left."

What else should a husband expect from a woman who has undergone this barbaric procedure?

Kawkaba Fathi, a Muslim, has found her own way of dealing with the problem.

"I pretend I'm enjoying it to keep my husband happy and it's going much better," she says, her round face placid and framed by a black veil.

Serious question guys. . . Are men really happy knowing their wives are faking it?

Other Comments by Barbara

10. Comment #80554 by mmurray on October 22, 2007 at 6:46 am

 avatar

Serious question guys. . . Are men really happy knowing their wives are faking it?

I thought we couldn't tell :-)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1J-eUKF6O6M

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

11. Comment #80556 by bluebird on October 22, 2007 at 6:46 am

 avatarAny female who sees 'this' coming towards her, should head for the hills and never return!!!

http://www.richarddawkins.net/article,1401,Police-plea-on-genital-mutilation,BBC

Other Comments by bluebird

12. Comment #80560 by ATH1 on October 22, 2007 at 6:55 am

 avatarI recently saw some documentation from my local hospital, supporting a campaign against FGM.

I was like - WHAT ABOUT MGM !!!! aka circumscision
Or would it be antisimetic to campaign against that?

I've also recently seen World Health Organistaion 'mutterings' about promoting MGM to stem the spread of HIV/AIDS in Africa!

- Hardly a solution!

This Lunacy MUST STOP - although what chance is there while the vatican has a seat on the UN.

Other Comments by ATH1

13. Comment #80571 by Peacebeuponme on October 22, 2007 at 7:35 am

ATH1
I was like - WHAT ABOUT MGM !!!! aka circumscision
Or would it be antisimetic to campaign against that?
There are a lot of people (myself included) who feel strongly that babies/children of either sex should not undergo surgery unless for valid medical/health reasons (and by this I mean a direct health condition, not reducing potential STD risk).

However, in terms of directing resources, I think its right that we seek to eradicate FGM first and foremost before looking at circumcision. Its plain that this a far more gruesome and traumatic procedure. There don't seem to be too many circumcised males who find it a problem.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

14. Comment #80637 by ridelo on October 22, 2007 at 12:31 pm

Not quite about circumcision but you should see this: a discussion of a Dutch stand-up comedian with three muslima's about the right to insult (subtitled).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knRLJp-nqSg

Other Comments by ridelo

15. Comment #80657 by kaiserkriss on October 22, 2007 at 2:09 pm

 avatarThe question that begs asking is how do doctors in Muslim countries, often trained in the west, justify performing this barbaric practise??? (This is being unkind to the Barbarians by the way).
That some local witch doctor or shaman can get away with the warped thinking in their minds, might be understandable, but University trained Doctors (even in the Muslim world) is a different matter. Shame on them! It is these cases that make me (almost) wish for a hell these people would be condemned to once their lives are over.. jcw

Other Comments by kaiserkriss

16. Comment #80667 by Corky on October 22, 2007 at 3:02 pm

 avatarFGM not religious? I bet that it is and I bet it pre-dates circumcision by a long time. I would say that it dates to the time that the priesthood consisted of priestess rather than priest.

Before patriarchal religion, came matriarchal and the worship of "the queen of heaven" or "earth mother". Call her Isis or Esther or Asheroth or Ishtar . . . I think the story of Cain and Abel in the bible illustrates that change from matriarchal to patriarchal. Cain made sacrifice of things from the earth like the matriarchal societies did and Abel makes animal sacrifice like the patriarchal societies do.

Blaming "original sin" on Eve is also probably an indication of this change.

Matriarchal societies are not all that gentle either (Cain killed Abel, according to the story) Some of the AmerIndian tribes were matriarchal and had human sacrifices.

Other Comments by Corky

17. Comment #80693 by Goldy on October 22, 2007 at 4:34 pm

I alwasy thought the Cain and Able story was illustrative of pastoralism versus agrarianism. This was sort of illustrated on TV here in NZ recently in some Sky doco about Iranian sheep herders moving their flock to the north. Seemed to be a bit of a clash with the settled farmers.
I dare say this story is open to many interpretations :-)
I do tend to agree with the idea that blaming Eve about introducing evil according to the story. Middle Eastern culture is terribly patriarchal...

Other Comments by Goldy

18. Comment #80949 by Shuggy on October 23, 2007 at 3:52 pm

 avatar
The gynaecologist says comparing female and male circumcision is like the difference between clipping a nail and cutting the whole finger off.



Hello? The foreskin (http://www.circumstitions.com/Works.html) is living, sensitive tissue too.

Yes, FGM is usually much worse than FGM, but they are actually on overlapping bell-curves of severity, and as human rights violations there is nothing between them.

This determination to see only the differences and not the similarities
(http://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html) is quite remarkable, rather like "Male blood sanctifies, female blood pollutes."

I can sympathise with the women in Africa who put male circumcision in the too-hard basket and don't want to lose focus - but not with the people in the "civilized" West who can't see the atrocity committed several times a minute under their own noses.

There don't seem to be too many circumcised males who find it a problem.
More than you'd think -

http://www.circumstitions.com/Resent.html

http://www.circumstitions.com/Complic.html

http://www.circumstitions.com/death.html

http://www.circumstitions.com/Botched.html


Other Comments by Shuggy

19. Comment #81021 by the izz on October 23, 2007 at 11:02 pm

 avatarShuggy-

Of course all genital mutilation is horrible, and I am strenuously against male circumcision. But the gynecologist's quote is spot on.

The difference between female and male circumcision is the differece between virtually NO sexual pleasure and slightly reduced sexual pleasure. Or to put it more bluntly: can't have an orgasm or can have an orgasm.

I am shocked that 97 percent of women in Egypt have been unforgivably brutalized and have had a huge portion of their lives stolen from them. I had no idea the number was so high. And I can't get my mind around the fact that women are primaraly the ones who do this to their daughters and grandaughters.

Does anyone know of organizations that are trying to stop this child abuse that I can donate to?

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20. Comment #81049 by Shuggy on October 24, 2007 at 1:12 am

 avatarthe izz: "The difference between female and male circumcision is the differece between virtually NO sexual pleasure and slightly reduced sexual pleasure. Or to put it more bluntly: can't have an orgasm or can have an orgasm."
Female circumcision does not reduce sexual activity

12:30 24 September 02

NewScientist.com news service

Circumcised women experience sexual arousal and orgasm as frequently as uncircumcised women, according to a study in Nigeria.

The researchers also found no difference in the frequency of intercourse or age of first sexual experience between the two groups of women.

( http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2837 )


(Paradoxically, the above is used as an argument for not doing it. When exactly the same thing is said about MGC, that's an argument for doing it.)
Not all FGM is clitoridectomy.

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21. Comment #81092 by narco on October 24, 2007 at 3:58 am

I get frustrated by articles that make big claims yet cite no source.

so I found some:

An older meta-study on "female sexual castration" presented in 1989-MAR showed that five surveys conducted between 1977 and 1985 estimated that 80.5% of Egyptian women in Cairo and Alexandria had undergone FGM. (Mohamed Badawi, "Epidemiology of Female Sexual Castration in Cairo, Egypt," Paper delivered at the First International Symposium on Circumcision, Anaheim, California,1989-MAR-1 &. Online at: http://www.nocirc.org/)

During 2007-JUN, Ahmad 'Aliwa, a women's rights activist, described one finding that shows the near universal practice of FGM in Egypt, noting: "The Center for Social Studies conducted a survey which showed that 85% of the prostitutes in Egypt were circumcised. There is no relation between female circumcision and the girls' behavior." (Death of Girl During Circumcision Stirs Debate in Egypt and Prompts a Fatwa by Mufti of Egypt Banning this Practice," Transcript of program on Al-Mihwar TV, 2007-JUN-24, at: http://www.memritv.org/)

A 2005 report by UNICEF suggested that 97% of Egyptian women between the ages of 15 and 49 who have never been married have undergone some form of FGM or circumcision. (according to the guardian.co.uk)

A more recent study by the Egyptian government found that 50.3% of girls aged 10 to 18 have been circumcised. (according to the guardian.co.uk)

Apparently the definition of "female circumcision" varies from (relatively) minor cuts, to removal of all exterior parts of the female genitals.

As per usual I found the best information at

http://www.religioustolerance.org

which I find to be the most informative website on religion

narco

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22. Comment #82365 by Flagellant on October 26, 2007 at 6:57 am

 avatarThe effects of this vile procedure do not relate simply to sexual enjoyment. In some parts of the World, it involves excision of the labia and sewing together the wound with wire. All of this is done without anaesthetic, of course. Because the girls have to be held down, their shoulders are sometimes dislocated.

The 'operation' has a deleterious effect on childbirth - the amount of damage done is devastating to health: infections, fistulas, and incontinence, for example.

A friend of mine worked with Medecin sans Frontiers in Somalia. She came across these procedures. She explained that a girl couldn't get married if it hadn't been done. It's all done in the name of 'neatness'. I think they call it 'Gilding the Rose'.

I had forgotten what she had told me. This thread brought it back: it is horrific.


God is grott, merdeiful.

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