1. Comment #81387 by dhudson0001 on October 24, 2007 at 4:39 pm

To the contrary, I recall being 9 or 10 and desperately searching for someone my age who appreciated music in the way that I did. By that time, I had taught myself hundreds of songs on my fathers Fender Jazzmaster and was also well on my way to discarding religion. Need I say more?

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2. Comment #81391 by Robert Maynard on October 24, 2007 at 4:45 pm

The charge that atheists lead 'meaningless' lives rests on the notion that purpose can only be prescribed by a third party, and in the absence of that party, we wander without purpose. The unhappy state is to believe we have to be given a purpose, that we can't produce our own.

I have decided my own directives in life - to seek enjoyable experiences and cherish the companionship of my friends, to discuss and consume art and culture (and food), to argue and to create. These decisions have value to me, and the people close to me. They don't need to exist beyond my life (where I'll have no use for them), and they don't need to persist in order to be have been real.

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3. Comment #81396 by menoone on October 24, 2007 at 4:56 pm

It's precisely because I do not see life as depressing, meaningless and cold that I do not accept the supernatural. I freely admit that I might if I did, but thats only a matter of consolation.

Meaning is something that we as a species create for ourselves. To someone else an old crumpled napkin in a shoebox is an old napkin in a shoebox. But for the owner this little grubby restaurant napkin is a precious artifact of the night they proposed marriage to the love of their life decades before.

Is a ring only a piece of metal? Is the diamond just a pebble? Are objects only there shape and weight and chemical composition or can they be a very great deal more?

We make meaning for ourselves and always have. We all do it and we all do it all of the time. Nothing about empricism or inductive reasoning takes away the deep infusions of meaning that we make, nor the power of art, music, literature or even little personal artifacts to express them.

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4. Comment #81425 by maton100 on October 24, 2007 at 5:46 pm

Life *is* depressing, meaningless and cold. As if that wasn't bad enough, now you want to add angels, demons and shit.

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5. Comment #81478 by prettygoodformonkeys on October 24, 2007 at 7:57 pm

Loving music, art, and poetry have made my life more difficult, in the sense that I have never fit in, but life is more confusing yet more worthwhile when it isn't black and white. Losing illusions opens your eyes to the world around you, and atheism is just another liberation from another illusion.

Unhappy: "if you just believe there is a father in the sky, you will be as happy as us." How long could one pretend this, and what kind of happiness is that? I left my father, grew up: born right the first time.

Depressed: being surrounded by the deluded is depressing; is that the fault of atheism?

Loveless: My wife, family and friends are the most important 'part' of my life. It is the truly loveless who imagine a supernatural love in order to escape the excruciatingly beautiful poignancy of our temporary nature. Surely this is more of a bond than the simplistic club rules of "believe, and you will be saved with us"; or, more correctly, "you will FEEL saved, like us". And, if you join us, we will feel less alone, which kind of feels like love.

Indifferent: it just looks like that to you from the artificial viewpoint you have created. Put down the goggles of religion, or just set them over there for a moment while we weigh things. See if you can, just for a moment.

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6. Comment #81482 by mrmatt on October 24, 2007 at 8:13 pm

Religious people can't be depressed and unhappy?

Non-religious people don't appreciate art? What about the many artists who weren't religious at all; Douglas Adams, Jose Saramago, Shelley, Vonnegut, Korsakov, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe etc etc.

The supernatural, like fiction, art, music, is an imaginative human construct. The difference is that fiction, art and music do not command us how to live. The Bible, for instance, is a fun piece of fiction (murders, rapes, magic, epic battles etc) but that's all it is.

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7. Comment #81493 by Goldy on October 24, 2007 at 8:34 pm

Only real answer to this is a deep belly laugh!

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8. Comment #81511 by Quine on October 24, 2007 at 9:14 pm

I follow Richard Feynman as an example, who's unbounded curiosity was far more exillerating then any of this religious make believe.


P.S. Who needs make believe when we have quantum physics.



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9. Comment #81542 by lukerazor on October 24, 2007 at 10:22 pm

We, as atheists, need to choose our own values in life, because there is no universal arbiter.

We can still choose to create a world where beauty is valued, or not. There is not nessecity that it is dark, cold and valueless.

See Satre's existential humanism for examples of how it could work.

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10. Comment #81571 by donn on October 24, 2007 at 11:06 pm

I'll try by way of a poem:

~ Wonder ~

We're no different
from the constituent stuff
minds depend by
dust and fluff.
Binary coded to multiply,
selected naturally tough.
Twisting uncertain gyres,
golden sectioned Nautili,
unfolding ferns spire.
Wonder stalks wonder
new worlds to magnify.
Does it ever tire,
rend end asunder?
Charmed spin,
Charged snail --
The snake forever
consumes its tail.

/d

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11. Comment #81595 by deepanjan_nag on October 25, 2007 at 12:21 am

Beethoven and Miles Davis bring tears to my eyes. Their aural creations are so beautiful, I feel ecstatic at times. And never ever did I have to allude to a supernatural being at such moments.

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12. Comment #81603 by oisha on October 25, 2007 at 12:42 am

My experience is that such comments are a last resort for the theist. They're actually talking about the utility of belief in God rather than the truth of the belief itself. They've already made the implicit assumption that "ignorance is bliss".

And they're not really saying "YOU must live a cold, meaningless, empty and unhappy life", what they're really saying is "if I abandoned God, I think I would live a cold, meaningless, empty, and unhappy life" - somewhat like the oft-repeated "I don't know what I would've done without God in my life. He's helped me through some really tough times."

I for one trust that people can see how happy I am without me having to convince them of it. And far be it from me to try to tell others that THEY can be happy without God in their lives. I very much believe that that is indeed the case, but I very much doubt that I would convince a religious person of it, so my simple retort to such statements as these is to concede their point and suggest the following:

"I'd rather believe what's true than what makes me feel good."

Or, less diplomatically, depending on the audience:

"I'd rather be sobre and depressed than happy and drunk."

These kinds of responses are, I think, much more likely to get the religious person to really question whether they believe in God because they believe he exists, or whether they merely entertain it as a useful fiction. If they ever start to waver towards the latter, what they might term a 'crisis of faith', then I consider my comments to have done their job.

Of course, people can always do some rather strange acrobatics in their mind and say, "life would be so depressing without God, therefore God must be true", but if somebody can't see the flaw of that kind of thinking then I don't think anything I can say will ever convince them otherwise.

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13. Comment #81609 by Conrad on October 25, 2007 at 12:58 am

Third party meaning is no meaning at all. If an advanced alien race long ago tweaked the hominid line in order to make a better race of slaves, then this too would give our lives meaning from a third party. But simply because meaning is given to us by another entity doesn't mean we will wish to recieve it.

On a side note, anyone who has actually read the entire bible will find it to be horribly written in a pedantic dreary style that hardly ever lets up. Even aside from the content, it's terrible writing! I don't take to the argument that being a christian gives you increased artistic sense or ability. If this were true then the vast majory of artists today would be christians....

As for life being depressing, we are depressed when our expectations are not met. It's my opinion that having a reality based view of the world leaves me vulnerable to less of my expectations being thwarted. For example, I don't expect prayers to come true and thus am not saddened by thoughts that requests to my diety have been ignored or refused. Instead I place my trust in what is possible, and more importantly, probable, yet always leaving open the possibility of the unexpected.

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14. Comment #81626 by oisha on October 25, 2007 at 1:28 am

Combining Goldy's comment I'd rephrase my response so as not to concede the theist any point:

"Look at me [with a broad beaming smile and deep belly laugh]. Do I really look unhappy to you? And even if I were unhappy, I'd rather believe something because the evidence suggests it's true than because it makes me feel good. Don't you think it's better to be sobre and depressed than happy and drunk? At least a sobre person can fix his problems with real solutions. And he can try to find ways to be happy that don't leave him with a headache in the morning."

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15. Comment #81647 by atp on October 25, 2007 at 1:54 am

One scary thing about religion is that it seems to take away some peoples ability to enjoy and find meaning in life as it is.

Maybe the reason is that religion teaches people to believe that there has to be something more, and thus makes it difficult to settle for what is.

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16. Comment #81656 by Paul Creber on October 25, 2007 at 2:18 am

We all make our own "meaning" in life. You make yours by inventing an imaginary friend whose powers put Superman to shame. I make mine by searching for a cure for cancer or tackling global warming. It irks me just a little when you describe my life as meaningless and futile.

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17. Comment #81697 by Synchronium on October 25, 2007 at 3:51 am

If anything, a life without the supernatual is a lot more fulfilling than one with.
What's the point of moping about, being on your best behaviour, waiting for whatever afterlife may await you? Religious people treat this life more like a dodgey train connection, whiling away the hours until they reach their destination. If you're not always waiting for the next life, you're a lot more able to enjoy the one you have now to its fullest, appreciating everything the universe has to offer.

A life without a god can actually be lived.

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18. Comment #81721 by Bertybob on October 25, 2007 at 5:11 am

The purpose in my life is to be as good and loving husband and father as I can be. To accept my failings and to hopefully leave this world slightly better than I found it in. To enjoy myself while I am here without trampling on others enjoyment and then to "shuffle off this mortal coil".

I have no God, but my wife, family, friends and dog give me all the meaning and enjoyment I need.



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19. Comment #81765 by upsidedawn on October 25, 2007 at 6:36 am

My experience is that such comments are a last resort for the theist. They're actually talking about the utility of belief in God rather than the truth of the belief itself. They've already made the implicit assumption that "ignorance is bliss".

And they're not really saying "YOU must live a cold, meaningless, empty and unhappy life", what they're really saying is "if I abandoned God, I think I would live a cold, meaningless, empty, and unhappy life" - somewhat like the oft-repeated "I don't know what I would've done without God in my life. He's helped me through some really tough times."

oisha, I like your thoughts on this and other subjects. I too feel that many dismissive comments about atheism coming from the mouths of believers are actually evidence of their own doubts. The comment that is the subject of this section is a case in point: is the believer actually masking his own unhappiness by making this statement? It's useful not to take the bait as if you have to prove the presence of happiness, love, and meaning in your own life, but to turn the attention back on the originator of the statement. If he is signaling his own doubts with these words, he may actually be, even unconsciously, asking you to encourage him toward a route out of the fog of God delusion.



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20. Comment #81836 by Extropian on October 25, 2007 at 9:08 am

As a professional musician, I guess I refute the idea that the godless have no appreciation or love for music. I most certainly do and there are a lot of other musicians who are atheists who feel the same way. This argument tells me more about the theist advancing the argument than it does about the likes or dislikes of atheists.

I view poetry, music, literature much in the same way as ice cream. I like vanilla, chocolate not so much and am ambivalent in regards to strawberry. Others reading this may differ with my views. :) The interesting thing is that I don't have to consult an external authority to validate or confirm my likes and dislikes as being "correct" or to determine what the correct "meaning" is of a piece of music, good book or my life overall. I determine what I like (duh), be that Bach or Benny Goodman, and I determine that on the basis of the merits of the particular work and it's effect on me. It is all internal and subjective and a function of one's specific history and inclinations. The theist is assuming that no one, atheist or not, is sufficient in and of him/herself to make that sort of determination without an appeal to an external authority to validate that opinion and declare it the "right" one to have regarding the work in question. "Well, GOD says......!" and that is the end of that.

How many times have you raised a question to a theist about whether a certain activity is permitted only to get the response, "I'll have to ask my pastor about that..."? For a theist, all authorities are external; remove that authority and they are unable to figure out if they like something or not or whether it is okay to perform a certain act or not. Pretty sad state of affairs. Now, excuse me while I go eat my ice cream. :)

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21. Comment #81884 by Jaana on October 25, 2007 at 10:47 am

I spent most of my youthful years in search of the "meaning of life;" exploring everything from Philosophy, Religion, Science/Physics, and then various forms of Spirituality.

Upon looking back, my most miserable years where those during which I became involved in either religious groups or "New age" (spiritual) groups.

Religion, as we all know, speaks a great deal about "sin" and thus, it is not surprising that i felt very poorly about myself (and others) as a result. There was also a great deal of talk about feeling "filled by the Spirit" or "God's presence," and even those claiming God "spoke" to them - which everyone was apparently capable of experiencing but myself. So, I felt even *more* poorly about myself and wondered why am I the only person who seems "untouched" by God? In addition, a heap of guilt was laid on me for everything from my smoking habit to wearing bikinis on the beach.

I finally escaped the clutches of religion in the early 90's (and i am proud to announce I never gave up my bikinis.)

Then I came upon "Spirituality". At first, it felt comfortable & harmless enough. Wishing to keep an "open mind," i went off exploring the many different aspects of spirituality (Channeling, chanting, Sufi dances, psychics, Gurus, "Healing" techniques, etc.)

But it was not long before I once again found myself feeling very alone and depressed. I felt there must be something wrong with me because I was unable to experience such things as the "out of body" phenomenon, nor did i feel any of the warm & fuzzy feelings that all those around me seemed to be experiencing during such things as meditation sessions, nor could i see or feel any "spirit guides" (or the other nonsense) that my peers all claimed to see or feel, ....and the list goes on and on.

I ditched all efforts to belong to any spiritual or religious groups from there on, and instead, I filled the "spiritual void" by simply living my life -and also started researching material on spirituality (primarily the debunking of spiritual claims & atheist viewpoints.)

There is no longer a "spiritual void" in my life. I no longer feel like an outcast or alienated as I had when i was involved in religion or spirituality, and I feel a great deal happier in life!

My suspicion -or belief- is that i was not the only one who felt (or lacked feeling) the way i did in those groups. The strong desire to "belong" and the pressure felt while in these groups likely compels people to either fake these supernatural experiences, or believe they *are* experiencing something through self-deception, the placebo effect, communal reinforcement, etc.

Sadly, in all the groups i have attended, i was the only one with courage enough to admit i did not feel or experience anything. I could see why, as when you confess to having no sensory perception of the supernatural, you are accused of having "blocks" or being "closed minded." Those are stinging words to a person who truly wishes to "belong."

Life was depressing, meaningless and cold until I found my way *out* of religion and spirituality.

I hope this answered the question properly. :-)

Aloha!

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22. Comment #81899 by sidfaiwu on October 25, 2007 at 11:24 am

"If you don't accept the supernatural, you obviously think life is depressing, meaningless and cold"

As anyone who actually knows me would state that you are obviously wrong.

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23. Comment #81995 by TranshumanAtheist on October 25, 2007 at 2:05 pm

I wish more people knew about the scientific research into happiness. Scientists have discovered that humans have biologically determined happiness set points, or "happiness thermostats," that regulate our average levels of happiness throughout our lives. Changes in fortune can push your happiness levels above or below your thermostat setting, but in the long run you tend to return to your natural level. (The exhilaration from winning the lottery doesn't last very long, for example.) These happiness thermostats don't depend on whether we believe in a god or not, so we see all sorts of combinations of happiness levels and world views, like chronically cheerful atheists and chronically depressed theists.

I would add that a god doesn't necessarily solve the problem of making the universe happy any way. What if it turns out that god finds its existence "depressing, meaningless and cold" because it doesn't believe in the super-supernatural?

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24. Comment #82049 by Mewtwo_X on October 25, 2007 at 3:35 pm

"Only if you force meaningfulness into an objective position. Meaningfulness, like science is intersubjective and makes sense only to cognitive beings."

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25. Comment #82055 by Goldy on October 25, 2007 at 3:42 pm

If you don't accept the supernatural, you obviously think life is depressing, meaningless and cold

And then I lok at the late Ayahallah Khomeini and wonder where this idea comes from...

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26. Comment #82159 by ? on October 25, 2007 at 7:04 pm

Consider how subjective this question is. What one person finds "depressing" another might not. It is entirely irrelevant to deciding whether or not something is true.

[I am assuming the hypotheitical opponant is Christian] If a Hindu or New Ager said to you "I cannot accept Xianty because it does not have reincarnation and I find a universe where I have never lived before very dull, depressing and stifling; therefore I will not even consider the calims of your grim reincarnation-less religion" you would feel the same way I do when you reflexively reject looking sensibly at my worldview on narrow-minded, sentimental grounds.

If you are merely expressing your feelings, no problem. But don't present them as universal. Not that I would commit the same error and use my emotional responses as *arguments* for naturalism, I will share my feelings on what feels right and good to me:

1. The idea that the universe is only 6,000 years old, earth-centered and will soon be destroyed is depressing to me. What a small, petty cosmos!

2. The idea of being watched constantly and having my thoughts read constantly by God and maybe angels and devils, too, is CREEPY.

3. The idea that a newborn baby is already guilty before God makes me feel both depressed and incredibly angry.

4. The idea that we have only one life to live makes me feel like living it to the fullest.

5. Having to find my own "meaning of life" feels inspiring and just plain sounds like a lot of fun.

Again, neither of our emotional reactions to these ideas says anything about their truth or falsehood. So why don't we stick to evidence and logic?

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27. Comment #82164 by Bonzai on October 25, 2007 at 7:16 pm

I am perfectly happy being alone minding my own business. The idea that some sky daddy is watching my every move actually creates a lot of stress, anxiety and depression. Can you imagine some pervert video taping all you do, even when you perform bodily functions, just so that he can use the tape against you at some point?

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28. Comment #82234 by EastCoastAtheist on October 25, 2007 at 10:56 pm

I've noticed that it makes some Christians very uneasy when I tell them what a great childhood I had. They just don't seem comfortable with the idea that a family full of Atheists could get along so well. (This is usually after they've complained about how terrible their childhood was.)

Counter this mean caricature with your life. Live, love, and be proud Atheists.

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29. Comment #82237 by EastCoastAtheist on October 25, 2007 at 11:05 pm

Bonzai,

You reminded me of something:
My parents are not religious, so I didn't learn much about religion when I was very young. As I got a bit older, started school, and met other little kids, I learned a bit about their religions. At some point, while still in elementary school, I learned that both Santa Claus and God could watch you all the time. I immediately asked a Christian friend if he wore a bathing suit when he took a bath.

If you like privacy, life is better without the supernatural!

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30. Comment #82238 by Diacanu on October 25, 2007 at 11:06 pm

I keep hearing the meme "if we aren't spirit, then we're just dead atoms/matter".

Um, WTF is "dead", about atoms?

I don't need spooks blended into the mix to be fascinated by quantum theory any more than I need spooks stirred into cookie batter to make the cookies taste good.

It's that whole fairies in the garden deal.
Can't grasp that mindset.

And it just occured to me, notice they never take the next step, and think, what if there are spooks, and spooks are made of spook quanta?

There's always that arbitrary cutoff point.

"There, that's the end of there being any more stuff, and it makes me happy".

God, but no creator of God, the end.

Spooks amongst the atoms, but no atoms of spooks, the end.

How does a mind end up in that shape?
The horror.

.

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31. Comment #82931 by monkeytrumpet on October 28, 2007 at 9:47 am

If you DO accept the supernatural you obviously think life is depressing, meaningless and cold.

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32. Comment #83004 by Luweewu on October 28, 2007 at 1:43 pm

As far as the argument that skeptics are unhappy, depressed, loveless, etc, that hasn't been my experience. But that's anecdotal evidence, and I doubt that theists can make a better argument on firmer ground.

But let's dig a little deeper. What seems to be at the heart of this argument (theists, tell me if I'm extrapolating too far) is the belief that without god(s), there is no meaning to life, and no thus over-arching goal of the universe. Theists seem to believe that without such a primary focus of the cosmos, life itself is depressing and meaningless.

At the risk of a straw man or a fallacious reductio ad absurdum, this seems best distilled as "if life doesn't last forever, then why bother living it?"

This begs the question, "if my sandwich is delicious, but it won't last me forever, why bother taking the first bite?" The answer in both cases is the same: It's delicious and I'll take as much of the good stuff as I can get.

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33. Comment #83044 by Corky on October 28, 2007 at 5:17 pm

If you accept the supernatural you must think that life is church and bible study. Isn't there anything else you enjoy?

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34. Comment #83375 by lpetrich on October 29, 2007 at 9:17 pm

It seems to me that this argument is almost like saying "I have to lie to myself to make myself happy."

I know of someone who was an atheist for a while, and a rather fervent one at that, but he snapped and ended up inventing a religion for himself to believe in, so he would not go nuts. He even came close to saying that he had to lie to himself in order to maintain his sanity.

It was a woozy New-Age-ish sort of religion, it must be said, and not some hard-boiled Abrahamic sect like the Orthodox Judaism which he had believed in before he became an atheist.

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35. Comment #83385 by Tim Friede on October 29, 2007 at 10:00 pm

Nope, just the opposite. B/c I don't believe I'll be floating around, or ever see the people I love after death, I spend every moment not wasting time. Every second is important, and atheism in me creates production with regards to time with family/friends/career, etc.

This is the greatest reward to me as a atheist. TF

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36. Comment #83599 by Eric Blair on October 30, 2007 at 3:01 pm

I think the point of this thread might be better stated as, "Life's a bitch and then you die."

If your life is pleasant enough and you're not obsessed with death, it's easy enough for anyone to be happy without God or mental stimulants.

But when things get tough – loved ones die young, your career nosedives, you get seriously ill, etc. – religious people would say that's when you turn to God (a variation on the "no atheists in the foxholes" argument).

The rebuttal – if that's the right word – would need to suggest that facing the hard rational truth, and being intellectually honest and reliant on one's self and one's fellow humans, are better than falling into the soft, comforting but childish pillow of belief in life after death.

Not always an easy sell. Who wants a soft but childish pillow and live forever? Hands up those who prefer to be intellectually honest and moulder six feet under…! (Where are those mental stimulants?)

EB

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37. Comment #83609 by CJ22 on October 30, 2007 at 3:59 pm

"Isn't it enough to believe a garden is beautiful, without having to believe there are faeries at the bottom of it?" ~Douglas Adams

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38. Comment #83644 by bluebird on October 30, 2007 at 7:13 pm

religious people would say that's when you turn to God

Our local newspaper editorialist wrote "even the atheist turns to God when they know their number is up".
Arg. Mighty presumptuous.

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39. Comment #83654 by 35bluejacket on October 30, 2007 at 7:47 pm

Personally I see the numinous lifestyle of Lucretious as the best, neo-epicurian frugal, happy and free from all the strife and frustrations of the world, we stand more as observers taking in the beauty of the universe, all the while defending reason. My favorite quote is his "Such is the power of reason to overcome inborn vices, that nothng prevents our living a life worthy of gods."

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40. Comment #83869 by lpetrich on October 31, 2007 at 1:52 pm

This argument reminds me of the classic editorial "Yes, Virginia, There Is a Santa Claus", stating that the Universe would be horribly dull and drab if there was no Santa Claus.

I have created a Mad Libs version of it here:

http://homepage.mac.com/lpetrich/YesVirginia.html

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41. Comment #84199 by Blue Lithium on November 1, 2007 at 12:07 pm

I think the world would actually be more horrid and depressing if a God existed, for at least two reasons:

1) The "celestial North Korea" aspect;

and 2) the idea of eternal life is just totally hellish. It would be torture by boredom...

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42. Comment #84374 by anonquick on November 1, 2007 at 11:39 pm

The Gist: distinguish the numinous from the supernatural, THEN argue that you can't own that, you can't capture the numinous with your petty beliefs, which are psychological in nature.
---

Like that Francis Collins, conversion experience. He has this awesome experience of beauty (acknowledge the experience), but its his interpretation that is suspect. I honor the experience, but have to insist that reducing it to some petty like conclusion about Jesus, is destroying one of the primal sources of wonder and experience. Push home the point that the wrong turn was to make the experience about own own beliefs, desires.

A related point - if raised in as a Hindu the experience would not have been of Jesus. Push the man-made nature of belief. There is the numinous experience that is the important thing, not the petty social construct.

If the debater has had there own such experience use that as a starting point.

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43. Comment #84479 by Diacanu on November 2, 2007 at 6:13 am

Y'know, I think I finally see the problem.

The theistic mind has been so inculcated with mythological pseudo-reality, that the person sees myth and reality as interchangeable, and indistinguishable.

Therefore, they see evolution, the big bang, etc, as the mythology structure cooked up by scientists.
Indeed, they can ONLY fathom it as a myth structure.

And they don't like it from a story telling point of view, so they choose the story structure that appeals to them as if the fabric of reality were up for grabs.

Like you could pick a world like flipping channels.

Because to them, you can.

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44. Comment #84875 by Telecaster on November 4, 2007 at 2:00 am

Why is it that the majority of people who base their existence on looking forward to eternal life, can't find enough to do on a long weekend?

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45. Comment #84921 by killer_rabbit79 on November 4, 2007 at 8:02 am

Sometimes I get asked how I can appreciate life if I don't think God gave it to me. I just say I appreciate the random chance of my conception over the other germ cells that I had to compete with. It's that simple.

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46. Comment #85464 by dweebs on November 6, 2007 at 1:12 am

Absolute rubbish, so suddenly people must be made to believe in a completely irrational idea to be able to live life and be happy? Because I'll be honest, my life is very warm and fuzzy (?) without somebody constantly watching me and smiting me evey time I say "oh,god!" thank you very much!

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47. Comment #85630 by drbreakfast on November 6, 2007 at 2:21 pm

This is such a meaningless assertion by theist and they (again) are mixing apples with oranges. If "the meaning of life" is conferred by a supernatural being, the question becomes how is this "meaning" conveyed? From self-contradictory, arbitrarily assembled collections of texts written by primitive Middle Easterners? Given the variety of interpretations/disagreements within just one "unified" religious tradition, it's clear that religion offers NO answers to the "meaning" question.

Secondly, my disbelief (and I think for most non-believers) enhances my appreciation for human talent that develops such great art, music, literature, etc.

Being an atheist is life affirming because we accept the fact that this life and world is all we have and it ends upon our deaths. So I have to appreciate as much beauty, emotion and wonder as I can get in because there's no bearded dude on a cloud who's going to show me this stuff upon my demise. Besides -- if I'm wrong, then am I not damned to "burn" for eternity anyway?

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48. Comment #85914 by oriole on November 7, 2007 at 1:15 pm

Right on, drbreakfast!

Actually, it seems to me that true believers in Christianity or Islam would be the ones who would find our world cold and meaningless compared to the infinite eternal happiness to be found in heaven. A true believer can shrug off earthly pain and suffering, or even find it to be a good thing because it qualifies the sufferer to enjoy eternal bliss in the afterlife.

Continuing on from drbreakfast's point, if you don't believe in the afterlife, you should logically look to make this life as fulfilling as possible, and not just a dreary preparation for the much better life to come.

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49. Comment #86024 by Asta Kask on November 7, 2007 at 10:09 pm

Listen to "What a wonderful world" and ask yourself if that's not enough to find joy in the world?

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50. Comment #86598 by ungodlystheist on November 9, 2007 at 5:05 pm

This is something I wrote elsewhere on the subject of meaning,

Thought I would see what people think of it here:

Here goes:
==========

Meaning cannot be borrowed.

If living for ourselves, as part of a community, does not give our life meaning, then what gives meaning to God's life? After all he lives for himself alone, he has no God above him to loan meaning to his existence, and since he is the only God that exists and has no peers, he has no community in which to express his meaning.

Unless the above is answered, then what meaning does God give to a Christian?


How do we know life is meant to have an ultimate meaning? Why should it have ultimate meaning, and does it need it anyway?

If our meaning comes from God, then we become mere utilities of God, ie, slaves. If I said the meaning of my life was to serve the state, then I have made myself a slave of the state, and also said that my life has no value without the state. Which means I believe the state is justified to do whatever it likes to me or other human beings, and I am justified in doing whatever I like to other human beings, in the interests of serving the state,

Similarly with God. If I say the meaning of my life is to serve God, then I have made myself a slave of God, and also said my life has no value without God. Which means I believe God is justified to do whatever he likes to me or other human beings, and I am justified in doing whatever I like to other human beings, in the interests of serving God.

Now if God does not exist, which he does not, no wonder Christians - and other theists - panic, thinking that their life is meaningless, considering that in their search for meaning they value themselves as being 100% worthless without God.

Finally, it is all just a play on words. To add the word "Absolute", which is what theists mean when they say God gives their life meaning, adds nothing extra to the word meaning.

If something has meaning it has meaning, to prefix the word absolute to it, does not give it extra meaning. If the meaning is not fond in the object or activity, in and of itself, then no amount of extra words prefixed to the word meaning, such as "Absolute, ultimate, cosmic, divine etc" will give it meaning.

Meaning comes from the activity itself and the results it gives, not from something outside of that activity.

When I was a boy my mother would tell me to brush my teeth, the activity of brushing my teeth gained no extra meaning (or benefit for my teeth) from the fact that my Mother told me to do so.

I brush my teeth now, though I no longer need my mother to tell me to do so (Which is a good job, since she is sadly dead), and brushing my teeth has just as much meaning for my teeth now as it did then.

Same with murder, if a theist says they do not commit murder (If only that was true- look at the murder performed in God's name by some theists), the activity of not committing murder gains no extra meaning because God told them to refain from the activity. (Though the theist's ethics is certainly diminished - if this is truly his reason for not committing murder.).

If the atheist does not commit murder, the activity of not committing murder gains no less meaning from the fact that he does not commit murder because he is following the dictate of some God (Though the atheist's ethics may certainly be greater then the theist - if the atheist has an ethical reason for not committing murder).

If the above analogy of mothers and teeth brushing, and God and murder is true, then meaning must lie within the activity and the results it gives, and not outside of the activity.

Which means meaning is not an object that is added to our activities, but is found within those very activities and no where else.

I find this whole concept of God providing us with meaning horrific and one of the worse things, if not the worse, in a theistic worldview.

What is the meaning of feeding a starving child, surely that act, if it is to have meaning, exists in the act itself. Are theists saying 'If there was no God there would be no meaning to feeding a starving child?"

Sure feeding a starving child would have no 'ultimate' meaning, something which does not and cannot exist, but it would be meaningful all the same.

As for your God, rather then add further meaning to the act of feeding a starving child, it rather diminishes its meaning, since the only thing that would give it meaning would be if your God exists. ie, the meaning of fedding a starving child is not found in the act and its results, but outside of the act. Which means the act of feeding a starving child is, of itself, meaningless. Which is surely a corrupt and corrupting concept

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