1. Comment #81931 by Devolution on October 25, 2007 at 12:14 pm

This is a favorite subject of mine to debate with Christians. I find the Treaty of Tripoli to be an effective starting point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

Article 11 reads:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

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2. Comment #81932 by Devolution on October 25, 2007 at 12:17 pm

Another interesting point of debate is the fact the "In God we trust" Was not added to our currency till after 1960.

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml

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3. Comment #81936 by Diacanu on October 25, 2007 at 12:23 pm

The Eddie Tabash video on this site tears that whole assertion to confetti.

http://richarddawkins.net/article,1772,Eddie-Tabash-at-AAI-07,Eddie-Tabash




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4. Comment #81942 by kurtdenke on October 25, 2007 at 12:28 pm

There are, of course, many important points to be made here about the actual history of the nation and what-not. But setting those aside, I usually just go to this:

Accepting for the sake of argument (and for the sake of argument ONLY, because it isn't true) that the founding fathers were all christians, who cares? We infer their intent in the creation of the republic from the words they chose to use in chartering it, not from what they may or may not have privately believed about the supernatural. And for the words they chose: see the First Amendment; and note the absence of any contrary wording in the rest of the Constitution.

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5. Comment #81950 by sidfaiwu on October 25, 2007 at 12:46 pm

I've already written an extensive response to this. If you are interested, you can read it here: http://religiousfreaks.com/truth-for-youth/the-christian-states-of-america/

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6. Comment #81961 by Rtambree on October 25, 2007 at 12:56 pm

There's already too many Abrahamic nations on Earth as it is... and look at their pathetic standard of livings, violence and ignorance.

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7. Comment #81967 by Ivan The Not So Bad on October 25, 2007 at 1:06 pm

As we here in the UK often hear the cry that "Britain is a Christian nation" and no doubt others around the world hear similar things about their country, this forum might be better headed "(Country X) is a Christian nation" and then sub-dividing it according to country as the argument will be different for each.

For instance, the UK has a state church with 26 bishops in the upper chamber of Parliament, a head of state who is head of that church and an heir to the throne who wants to be "Defender of Faiths" rather than "Defender of the Faith". This is clearly different from the situation in the US where state and religion are more clearly separated.

With current proposals for reform of the upper house into an all elected chamber, it is important that we are on top of this as the Government are showing signs of backsliding in the face of protests not only from the Church of England but also from other religions who now want to have seats in our legislature reserved for them in the name of "equality".



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8. Comment #81971 by Corky on October 25, 2007 at 1:08 pm

The US is a free nation: "dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal" with no royalty or priestly class above the common people who are able to govern themselves.

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9. Comment #81986 by Bonzai on October 25, 2007 at 1:43 pm

This is odd. The U.S. is not the centre of the universe, nor is it the model nation for the world. I cannot see how the U.S's. supposed Christian root validates Christianity in its truth or moral claim.

The U.S. was found on the genocide of Native Americans, which was justified by many on religious ground. Later Christianity again provided the rhetorical and ideological cover for slavery. So in a sense there is some truth to the claim that the U.S. is a Christian nation.

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10. Comment #81994 by kurtdenke on October 25, 2007 at 2:04 pm

I cannot see how the U.S's. supposed Christian root validates Christianity in its truth or moral claim.

This isn't really an argument for christianity's truth; it's an argument which we in the US hear ad nauseam every time there is an issue over church/state separation. The import of the argument is not "the founders believed, therefore it must be true" but "you live in a christian nation, so expect to get it shoved down your throat!"

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11. Comment #82003 by bluebird on October 25, 2007 at 2:15 pm

We personally don't use the term "founded", Christian or otherwise. There was already a strong population of settled indigenous peoples in North America, as Bonzai mentions.
http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States

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12. Comment #82013 by Teratornis on October 25, 2007 at 2:28 pm

For a Christian nation, we don't seem too eager to forgive our enemies and turn the other cheek.

U.S. military spending exceeds that of the next ten countries combined:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_spending
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_federations_by_military_expenditures

U.S. militarism is more along the lines of the Old Testament than the New. We are more of a "Mosaic" nation than a "Christian" one.

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13. Comment #82042 by Mewtwo_X on October 25, 2007 at 3:26 pm

"The constitution of America is based on Locke's works. Therefore, America is a Lockean Nation."

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14. Comment #82134 by John P on October 25, 2007 at 6:07 pm

I blogged on this.

Practically all major governments up to 1776 were patterned on those set forth in the Bible. The American Revolution was a rebellion against that type of government (a monarchy, where all powers of government are concentrated in one individual, where religious freedom was non-existent, etc.). Remember the concept "the Divine Right of Kings"? That's what we got rid of, folks, when we overthrew King George III, and enacted our Constitution. Our country, our form of government, is anything but Christian.

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15. Comment #82135 by kev_s on October 25, 2007 at 6:09 pm

It is absolutely true. The idea of church/state separation came about because one group of Christians was persecuting another. Without Christians persecuting each other there would not have been a need for separation of church and state.
Eventually some intelligent people got so fed up with this state of affairs that they decided there had to be a better way. They created the American constitution with its separation of church and state to prevent the persecution of one religious group by another and especially to prevent persecution by the state in the name of one religion.
Saying that church/state separation comes from Christianity is like saying that the bruise on my face is caused by a bully or the lock on my house is caused by a thief. Hardly a causal connection to applaud.

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16. Comment #82136 by Goldy on October 25, 2007 at 6:14 pm

Wasn't the American constitution partly inspired by the idealists of the Civil War (our one, not your one)? Divine right of Kings extinguished by the blow of an axe (Charles I) and all that? I'll admit differences, hence the use of the word inspired. I believe the French Revolution was also inspired by the same and helped the American independence.
I could be wrong and will accept corrections :-)

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17. Comment #82177 by kev_s on October 25, 2007 at 7:43 pm

In a restaurant this evening a young American student expressed the opinion that liberalism was the same as communism.
How can someone who lives in a country with the only liberal constitution that has existed in the history of mankind say such a dumb thing?
I confess I did not stand up and start a row but now I am ashamed that I didn't. Such stupidity should not go unchallenged.
Of course he thinks this because the right-wing equate liberal attitudes with communism just as the religious equate atheism with fascism. What a sad state of affairs.

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18. Comment #82217 by EastCoastAtheist on October 25, 2007 at 10:16 pm

Logical Fallacy: Argumentum ad populum

It is, of course, not true that America is a Christian nation. But even if it was true, what does that have to do with the truth of Christianity? It's interesting how many of these debate points have nothing to do with whether or not religious claims are true.

If the United States was a Christian nation (which, again, it isn't), then I would be interested in getting that changed.

Iran is a Muslim country. Does that make Islam true?

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19. Comment #82498 by Icculus on October 26, 2007 at 1:18 pm

The clearest evidence against this argument is the mountain of text written by the Framers negating it.

That said, the argument isn't offered to prove the truth or veracity of Christianity, at least most of the time. People assert this argument as a basis for social policy that otherwise would not pass Establishment Clause scrutiny (i.e. abstinence only sex education).

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20. Comment #82502 by Diacanu on October 26, 2007 at 1:33 pm

Well, you know what his argument really says to me?
Deep at its core, it's saying "it doesn't MATTER if you can outhink us, we'll merely outbreed you".
And that's how religion has spread in the past.
By the sword, and the porksword.
And that's why the "there's more of us", argument chills me.
Implicit in "there's more of us", is the covert threat "...piss us off, and we'll get you".

I see it in every creepy phony skeleton grin of Anne Coulter.

.

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21. Comment #82589 by VrijzinnigMan on October 26, 2007 at 8:30 pm

The US is a Christian nation as much as it is white nation, i.e. the majority of the population is Christian and is also Caucasian. Above all, however, the US is a democracy, which is different from "majority rules".

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22. Comment #82678 by sornord on October 27, 2007 at 7:52 am

The US is not actually a democracy, per se, but a democratic REPUBLIC since elected REPRESENTATIVES legislate in the name of their constituents.

And that will be the whole my career as a civics teacher...

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23. Comment #82694 by darwinron on October 27, 2007 at 8:55 am

This statement appears on a religious website:
"The United States is not, by any stretch of the imagination a Christian nation today, nor has it ever been, nor was it ever intended to be." Read the entire piece with many great facts at: The Quartz Hill School of Theology (of all places) http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm

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24. Comment #82726 by Garnok on October 27, 2007 at 11:15 am

"The US is (or was founded as) a Christian Nation."

Most polls do show that he majority of the United States affiliates with one type of Christianity or another but they also show that the majority of those affliate with Roman Catholicism, so why do we even bother with elections and not just give the Pope the reins of power? After all, you think the "majority rules", right? (This is assuming that you are talking to a non- Catholic Christian, of course, but most Catholics I know have no problem with the US being a secular nation)

"The idea of Church/State separation comes from Christianity"

Then you should have no problem agreeing with it. Why are we still discussing it. Get your religion out of government. You don't want to upset your god, do you?

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25. Comment #83384 by lpetrich on October 29, 2007 at 9:57 pm

The US Constitution starts with

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

which has no God or Jesus Christ in it. In fact, it's a good statement of the social-contract theory of government, in which people decide to have a government to do various things for them. It is a complete rejection of the divine-command theory of government ("We are only following God's orders"), and it certainly did not state that God has appointed a God-surrogate (king) to rule. Which is what King George III had believed about himself.

The original Constitution mentioned religion only once, in Article 6: "... no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." Its First Amendment states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Some God-is-an-American apologists retreat from there to the Declaration of Independence, but the God in that document is a deist sort of God, one who is an ultimate lawgiver, but one who does not meddle in human affairs or fix political contests as if they were football games. It also makes no mention of Jesus Christ.

The reference to "year of our Lord" does not prove much; the signing on Thursday, July 4, does not prove that they worshipped Thor or Julius Caesar.

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26. Comment #83549 by Steven Mading on October 30, 2007 at 11:35 am

The reference to "year of our Lord" does not prove much; the signing on Thursday, July 4, does not prove that they worshipped Thor or Julius Caesar.

That's a great point, but to use it in a debate against people who are ignorant enough of history to claim the US is a Christian Nation, you'll have to spell it out for them. These same people aren't going to realize that Thursday is a modern mutation of "Thor's day" and that July was named after Julius Ceaser.

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27. Comment #83946 by Wilfred C. Lyon on October 31, 2007 at 6:41 pm

"The idea of Church/State separation comes from Christianity"

Well, in some respects this is a true statement. James Madison was so taken with pity for a Baptist whowas being abused by his Virginia state religion's parson, that he wrote to Thomas Jefferson about it. The two conspired to have Virginia's law changed to protect all religions. That Virginia law became the basis for the First amendment.

Thomas Jefferson, of course, mentioned the "wall of separation" between church and state to assure the Baptists in New York that it protected them, too.

It is one irony of religious history that a minority religion pleads for tolerance until it becomes the majority when it then can become intolerant, and then does.

I have a brother-in-law who believe the Christian nation idea and that the non-faithful are turning it into a nation hostile to Christianity. I say "believes" because no amount of showing that either George Washington did tell a lie with his statement in the Treaty of Tripoli or that he is wrong, or giving him the letters of Madison, Jefferson, Ben Franklin, will shake his belief. A "faith-head" believes and anyone who tries to shake his faith is giving him satanic verses.

Sadly, reason and facts, will not change belief. A believer must put aside belief to accept reason and fact, and then they are no longer a believer.

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28. Comment #84368 by anonquick on November 1, 2007 at 11:09 pm

The Gist: Make a public bet "I bet $100,000 that Jefferson wasn't, another $100,000 this person wasn't etc.

This wholly depends on how good the historical record is. Autobiographies are good. If you going to use this one, bet big and get the help of the best experts you can find who are willing to help.

If nothing else it will get publicity.

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29. Comment #84589 by dantheman on November 2, 2007 at 4:04 pm

"The US is not actually a democracy, per se, but a democratic REPUBLIC since elected REPRESENTATIVES legislate in the name of their constituents."

And that will be the whole my career as a civics teacher...

He, He, You mean they actually represent me, Little old me?. I'm going to go tell that to Mr. Haliburton

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30. Comment #84926 by killer_rabbit79 on November 4, 2007 at 8:26 am

I don't like it, but the US is a Christian nation. It may have a free religion policy but the majority of people are Christians and the Christians have all the power. How many Hindus or Buddhists or Muslims have you seen in the senate or in congress? How many have you seen hosting Fox News? What's Uncle Sam's religion? That's all there is to it.

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31. Comment #87396 by Roel on November 12, 2007 at 3:00 am

The question is not whether the US is a christian nation. The question is: if it is, should that affect your political and justice system? If your answer is yes, then please be sincere to admit that you're against democracy.

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32. Comment #87398 by Roel on November 12, 2007 at 3:08 am

No offense, but I really don't understand your preoccupation with the founding fathers. I'm living in The Netherlands, and in no debate whatsoever anyone ever says "What would William of Orange have said about this?" What if someone proves that the founding fathers were not secularists? Would that change your mind?

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33. Comment #99826 by EmilFremy on December 17, 2007 at 4:00 pm

1. "The US is (or was founded as) a Christian Nation."

How do you define Christian Nation?
Repeating just some words and ideas from the Bible
in the constitution? Sitting in churches, listening to Televangelists?
That´s just idle chatter and self-deception!

The instructions given by Jesus to his followers where quite easy
to understand, but obviously not easy to practice:
Do not kill, don´t not steal ...
Love thy enemies ... and much more!

But what happened in and through the US:
Genocide to the Indians, exploitation of slaves, Civil war,
World Wars, atomic Bombs on Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Irak, . . .

Anyone who states, that the US are a christian nation is a liar
and/or he does not know what Christ told his followers to do.
There is no excuse!

Actually there is no christian nation on earth at all.


2. "The idea of Church/State separation comes from Christianity"

This refers probably to the story in the new testament where Jesus said:
(freely translated from german) Give to the emperor what the emperors (property) is . .
... my kingdom is of another world . . .
But as the story goes, that was just tactics for the situation at that time.

The idea of separation of Church and State resulted from the terror
of religious motivated wars in Europe centuries later.
Or to be cynical, yes, it comes from christianity, but in the negative sense.

So my answer is:
Certainly not, it is just the vain attempt to bring some sanity
into political decisions, because religion is just one more reason to
hate other people and justify that.

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34. Comment #119406 by Eric Blair on January 31, 2008 at 3:01 pm

Not sure of the purpose of this thread.

The US Constitution, purposefully, does not mention God (even the references in the Dec of Ind are not specifically Christian, more Deist).

It's probably true that most of the founding fathers saw the US as a Christian nation, though they themselves were hardly devoted believers. But so what? Even if they were devoted, that really has no bearing on what the US is today.

On the other hand, the secularism advocated by the FFs, and the church/state separation that expressed it, was aimed at avoiding a single denomination being recognized as the "state church," as in most European countries at the time.

The FFs were generally Unitarian, Deists or vague Christians. They were not atheists and did not encourage atheism. Jefferson in particular saw it as harmful to social order.

But again, what's the relevance? They are not great "witnesses" for either side in this dispute.

Is the US a Christian nation? Yes, because most people are Christians. Is it formally a Christian nation? Absolutely not, according to its constitution. Or at least not yet...

EB

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35. Comment #120507 by blasphemer_number1 on February 1, 2008 at 8:54 pm

While it may not be formally true, it's hard to argue against this one. The US population is 75% Christian according to some of the sources I checked. Our money has "In god we trust" printed on it. Our pledge of allegiance has "one nation under god" in it. We swear on a bible before testifying in trial (in some states atheists cannot legally testify for this reason no doubt.) There are US court houses with the ten commandments prominently displayed.

The US forefathers were seccularists and arguably the most influential ones were almost certainly atheists (Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, etc...) The wording of the constitution specifies the separation of church and state and makes no mention (to my knowledge) directly favoring any religion; let alone Christianity. http://www.usconstitution.net/constfaq_a8.html#Q153

So, is the US a Christian nation? Legally no, but practically yes. As an atheist, I cannot and will not make my views known at work for fear of losing my job; although my co-workers regularly talk about various church functions (despite working in a technical field developing a product for a company not affiliated with religion.)

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36. Comment #121365 by Riley on February 3, 2008 at 9:52 am

The United States government can not be characterized as "Christian". The Constitution of the United States explicitly forbads that. This issue was of such great importance to the founding signatories of the United States constitution that the very first amendment is dedicated to their decision not to affiliate the U.S. with any particular religion.

The people and culture of America might be characterized as "Christian", but even this is too simplistic. The United States is a nation of mixed religious backgrounds. Yes, a strong majority of the U.S. population is accurately characterized as "Christian" but there are significant and influential minorities.

In response to "blasphemer_number1" points:
1) "In god we trust" and "under god" are not specifically Christian references. They're generic theism. The 10 Commandments are Judeo-Christian.

2) U.S. court houses displaying the 10 Commandments have been instructed by the U.S. government to remove them.

3) The method used to be sworn into office is a personal choice made by the person being sworn -- it's not dictated by U.S. law (such a law would be unconstitutional). Non-Christian office holders in the U.S. have been sworn in on the koran, Talmud, and on no holy book at all.

4) "In god we trust" and "under God" were added to U.S. currency and the pledge during the 1950's: a direct result of the McCarthyism hysteria of that period. McCarthyism was one of the most embarrassing periods of American political history. It featured widespread and unconstitutional government harassment of minority political, social, and religious views. The injection of "In god we trust" and "under God" into American traditions were shameful remnants of that McCarthyist era. Like the Confederate flag, we unfortunately still endure such embarrassing reminders, but that doesn't mean such symbols define what the United States Government is.

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37. Comment #121378 by Riley on February 3, 2008 at 10:24 am

Quotes from the authors and founding signatories of the U.S. Constitution are relevant because they provide insight into what their intentions were when they wrote and signed the document that defines what the United States Government is. Here are some insightful quotes:




JAMES MADISON:
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

BEN FRANKLIN:
"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."

THOMAS JEFFERSON:
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

JOHN ADAMS:
“It will never be pretended that any persons employed in [the formation of the American governments] had interviews with gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven ... ; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.�

Even though Madison and Adams were Christian themselves, they still believed passionately in founding a country (a government) that was explicitly not Christian.

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38. Comment #126238 by William Kaiser on February 12, 2008 at 6:38 pm

First of all I would like to NOT use the word 'nation.' It is way too ambiguous, there are many synonyms for this word.

I would like a more precise definition of what kind of 'nation' the US is. I would like to use the definition as written on Wikipedia.
'The United States of America is a federal constitutional republic...'

A 'constitution' is a document that nations use to define their basis for governance and laws.

The first amendment to the US Constitution CLEARLY states the role of religion, as it pertains to government (the US Congress) and of the citizens of the US.

'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...'

This statement has been argued quite a few times in the US courts, to my knowledge this principle has never been denied.

So here are my two (well.. three, I throw the third one in for no extra charge) major counter arguments against the 'US is a christian nation' view.

# 1 - The US is a constitutional republic and the Constitution of the US specifically prohibits the government from favoring any and/or all religions.

# 2 - The Constitution of the US specifically prohibits US citizens from interfering with any other citizens religious belief. It is totally irrelevant how many US citizens consider themselves 'christian.'

# 3 - It is totally irrelevant what were the religious beliefs of the 'Founding Fathers' of the US. These same 'Founding Fathers' wrote the US Constitution, they vigorously argued and debated over the contents of this document, in the end they approved it's contents and then had this document ratified by all thirteen states of the then new republic.


William Kaiser


Follow this link if you wish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

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39. Comment #130246 by martino on February 20, 2008 at 7:37 am

This is a scurrilous myth! Check the founders who were mostly deists, their care in creating the first amendment being well aware of the problems of religion interfering with the state in Europe and check out the Treaty of Tripoli.

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40. Comment #141952 by prospero811 on March 11, 2008 at 1:06 pm

Mr. Dawkins,

The claim that the U.S. is a "Christian Nation" is an outgrowth of what I've called "Founder Worship." There is a significant segment of the population, including many pundits on radio and television, that often refer to the "intent of the Founders," always with the upper case F.

This conjures an image of great robed thinkers who founded the nation in a golden age of unified thinking that we have since gone away from. We've lost the religion of The Founders. If only we could get back to the wonderful time of The Founders, then all will be well.

And, what did The Founders believe? Whatever it was, we have to agree with them, because they were the wise Founders. And, we're constantly told that The Founders were Christians and Founded this nation as a Christian Nation.

What's the reality? The nation was founded by a large number of different men, with a large variety of differing opinions, philosophies, and religious views. They argued vehemently with each other, bitterly (e.g., Jefferson and Adams, Federalists and Antifederalists, Deists and Christians, etc.). Jefferson, who wrote the U.S. Declaration of Independence, expressly loathed Christianity. Not one mention of God is made in the U.S. Constitution (the document that creates the U.S.), let alone the Christian God, and the only mention of religion is to say that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Clearly, if The Founders intended to form a Christian Nation, wouldn't they have spoken in a unified voice and stated in the Preamble to the Constitution, "We the People...in order to form a Christian Nation..." They absolutely did not.

I always take care to never, ever.... ever use the term "the Founders" or "intent of the Founders" exactly for the reason that there never was such a thing! This country came about out of strife, and out of struggle, among many men of differing temperaments and ideas, philosophies and religions, etc.

And, not to stop there, they were MEN, nothing more and nothing less. They had affairs, duels, fights, etc. They lied. They cheated. They were hypocritical. They flip-flopped. This isn't to say that they weren't essentially good men. Most of them were. But, they were no more of unified group of "Christian Nation Builders" than we have today.

Perhaps I've rambled. So, I'll stop my stream of consciousness there.

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41. Comment #142453 by prospero811 on March 12, 2008 at 2:08 pm

If the U.S. was founded as a Christian Nation then why have there been many efforts to incorporate express Christianity-adopting statements into the Constitution? And, why have they been rejected?

In February 1863 a coalition of eleven Protestant denominations from seven northern states gathered to discuss the state of the nation. Seeing the Civil War as God's punishment for the omission of God from the Constitution (not 'tolerance of gays' at that point...), they discussed a proposed amendment to alter the wording of the Preamble to acknowledge God. The original draft, by Pennsylvania attorney John Alexander, read: "We, the people of the United States recognizing the being and attributes of Almighty God, the Divine Authority of the Holy Scriptures, the law of God as the paramount rule, and Jesus, the Messiah, the Savior and Lord of all, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and to our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Obviously, religious people can suck the fun out of anything!

In the following year the "Christian Amendment Movement" was founded and quickly renamed the National Reform Association with Alexander as its first president. They sent a "memorial" to Congress formally proposing the following amendment: "We, the people of the United States, humbly acknowledging Almighty God as the source of all authority and power in civil government, the Lord Jesus Christ as the Ruler among the nations, His revealed will as the supreme law of the land, in order to constitute a Christian government, and in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the inalienable rights and the blessings of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to ourselves and our posterity, and all the people, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

The idea that civil governments derive their legitimacy from God, and Jesus in particular, was based on Biblical passages in Romans 13 and Psalms 2. The proposal was supported by Senators Charles Sumner, B. Gratz Brown and John Sherman, but did not come to a vote. However, one member of the National Reform Association, James Pollock, did play a role in getting the phrase "In God We Trust" on the two-cent coin in 1864.

Similar proposals were considered by Congress in 1874, 1896 and 1910, but none were passed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Amendment

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42. Comment #142455 by prospero811 on March 12, 2008 at 2:11 pm

Here's a fabulous article in the New York Times that says it well - a nation of Christians is not a Christian nation: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/opinion/07meacham.html

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43. Comment #156992 by KeepEmSeparated on April 8, 2008 at 1:16 pm

Everything posted here is ALL AROUND the most important issues; NO GOVERNMENT should have religeous leaders or Dogma involved in it AT ALL. DO you need more proof than the Muslim fundamentalists?

Since time began, tyrants knew they had to keep the religeous leaders at thier sides to do two things;
1. So they could KEEP their subjects subjugated; the King had you in life AND, commanding the Bishops, in the afterlife as well, so you DID what he SAID.

2. Propaganda; Normal well educated human beings do not go into another country and kill people wholesale and take their stuff on a kings whim. Not when there is a "higher power" to answer to. "God" then had to be "on the side" of tyrants who were smart. Why do you think the bishops (powerful pieces) are on either side of the King and Queen on a chessboard? A WAR game?

The proliferation of the Judeo Christan faith was at the expense of millions of mostly small brown semi naked peoples who were deemed "less than human" and "Heathens." Separation of government and religeon is an absolute necessity in preventing tyrrany and wholesale slaughter and enslavement "In the name of God."

I offer known History; The Crusades, The conquistadors, The "Discovery of the new world," The Nazi's, The Spanish Inquisition, 911 and muslim fundamentalists, ad nauseum, prove it ad nauseum. Separation of Church and State is the single most brilliant piece of legislation in recorded history, and it is certainly the most important, regardless of your faith. NO TRUE US CITIZEN AND PATRIOT should want religeon in their government any more than they want government in their church.

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44. Comment #160829 by dadamo on April 14, 2008 at 12:49 pm

Is the U.S. a Christian Nation?

(The following is from http://www.jhuger.com/)

I frequently hear Christians claim that the United States is a Christian nation, or that the Founding Fathers intended us to be a Christian nation. When they bother to offer evidence it's usually some McCarthy-era addition to our pledge or our money, or some quote (often bogus) from a speech or a letter by one of the Founding Fathers.

Think about this for a second: If you were starting a Christian nation, how would you go about it? Would you make oblique references to "Great Powers" and "Guiding Hands" in obscure speeches and letters, or would you fill your foundational documents with references to Jesus Christ and the Bible?

The Founding Fathers were brilliant men. They spent months and months working on the Constitution. They were very, very careful about what they wrote, discussing and debating every passage at great length. It seems to me that if they had intended this to be a Christian nation they would have said so somewhere in the Constitution. The Founding Fathers had no reason to be vague. There was no ACLU, no "Activist judges." If they had wanted a Christian Nation they could have written:
God Almighty, in Order to form a true Christian Nation, establish Divine Justice, insure adherence to His Laws, provide for the defense of His Church, promote His Word, and secure His Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, has led us to ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Instead they wrote:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

The words "Jesus" "Christ" "Bible" "God" and even "Creator" appear nowhere in the Constitution ("Endowed by their Creator" is in the Declaration of Independence.) Just how stupid would someone have to be to create a Christian nation then forget to mention Christ in the Constitution?

Also notice that nobody ever asks what the Founding Mothers might have said. There were no Founding Mothers. The Founders were all men; White men, many of them slave owners. White male slave owners who may or may not have been Christians, but explicitly forbade any kind of religious test for office. In other words, you have a far stronger case if you'd like to argue that the Founding Fathers intended us to be a racist and sexist nation.

I think you can make a good case that some or even most of the Founding Fathers were Christians, but it's absurd to think that they wanted to impose that belief on the nation, and even more absurd to imagine we should be bound by their prejudices.

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45. Comment #225423 by Hari Seldon on August 6, 2008 at 2:52 pm

Here's a link to a website debunking the disinformation campaign by the US religious right to rewrite American history into a theocracy:

http://www.liarsforjesus.com/

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46. Comment #237663 by accelerant on August 26, 2008 at 10:59 pm

And how exaclty does this discredit atheism? Americans can re-introduce witch burning for all I care; I'd still be an atheist.

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