1. Comment #81934 by Mr C on October 25, 2007 at 12:18 pm

Atheists don't believe in anything, except the power of reasoned rational thought, free investigation and the unfettered human spirit to succeed.

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2. Comment #81939 by thelivingbrian on October 25, 2007 at 12:28 pm

I believe in evidence.

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3. Comment #81943 by Vadjong on October 25, 2007 at 12:30 pm

To a believer : As an atheist I do believe in intelligence, even yours.


If there is one thing I believe in, it is intelligence ;
If there is one thing I believe in, even against better judgement, it's human intelligence.

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4. Comment #81945 by zepner508 on October 25, 2007 at 12:35 pm

atheists don't believe in anything supernatural



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5. Comment #81972 by technogogo on October 25, 2007 at 1:15 pm

I still believe in love.

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6. Comment #81974 by axiomtek on October 25, 2007 at 1:16 pm

This statement is partly true – 'atheism' does not entail that one believes anything! If someone says they are an atheist, they have only told you what they do not believe [ie gods exist]. Of course, atheists as people happen to believe many things, but none of them is necessitated by their atheism.


zepner508 claims "atheists don't believe in anything supernatural"

Well, that is mostly true for most atheists, but you can not say "being an atheist requires you to reject the supernatural" since all that's required to be an atheist is that you have no belief in gods! You can be an atheist and believe in ghosts.

You are wrong.

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7. Comment #81993 by Not the Messiah on October 25, 2007 at 2:03 pm

I'm not sure the argument is one to take offence at.

Ideally, the Atheist position results from having a cautious, skeptical worldview - which might be characterised as "Try not to suppose more than is absolutely necessary".

So while the original statement is rather exaggerated, it might be fair to say that rational atheists, as a rule, do try to keep their "beliefs" to a minimum, and subject to change, and this is no bad thing.

The argument is muddied by confusing the phrase "to believe in something" with "to value something", at which point it descends into the argument that "atheists have no morals/capacity for love/appreciation of art" ..or whatever.

.

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8. Comment #82005 by srobbins on October 25, 2007 at 2:17 pm

I would say that we don't believe in anything for no reason. Which just means we don't have faith in anything, not that we don't believe anything.

We believe in gravity for many good reasons, as do all people. We don't believe in the orbiting teapot because there is no reason to.

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9. Comment #82011 by burkbraun on October 25, 2007 at 2:27 pm

Well, we sure don't believe in Santa Claus, if that is what you mean. Or in beings that are formally equivalent to Santa Claus.
1. invisible, except in school plays
2. plays good cop/bad cop to make us behave
3. documentary evidence- stories and myth
4. rich artistic heritage
5. changes likes and dislikes with time and culture

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10. Comment #82025 by jaf on October 25, 2007 at 2:47 pm

To quote the lovely Shirley Manson (of Garbage), from her song 'Stupid Girl' -
"[I] don't believe in anything that I can't break."

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11. Comment #82034 by 82abhilash on October 25, 2007 at 3:07 pm

If by belief, you mean belief without evidence (faith), you are absolutely right. We take pride in the fact that we do not believe in things that cannot be proved rationally.

But like everybody else we share the hope to live in a world that is better than what it is today. We do not believe a super-natural entity has any role in it and that is all.

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12. Comment #82036 by Tatarize on October 25, 2007 at 3:20 pm

I believe this commenter is on to something. Atheists don't believe in anything. And, as an atheist I believe in nothing. Wait, then I can't really believe the comment is true if it is true.

If you don't believe in Santa Claus you don't believe in anything.

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13. Comment #82038 by Mewtwo_X on October 25, 2007 at 3:20 pm

"I obviously believe its worthwhile talking to you, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation..."

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14. Comment #82102 by dawson on October 25, 2007 at 5:11 pm

Atheists believe and disbelieve all sorts of things. There is no standard set of beliefs for atheists. The only commonality among atheists is the absence of belief in supernatural deities.

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15. Comment #82119 by kev_s on October 25, 2007 at 5:38 pm

Ok...so if religionists believe in god then they must believe in fairies and unicorns too. Duuurrr!

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16. Comment #82120 by kev_s on October 25, 2007 at 5:39 pm

I believe in gravity.

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17. Comment #82125 by Rtambree on October 25, 2007 at 5:51 pm

Other way around - it is the Abrahamic religions that are so disgusted with themselves, their lives, the species, and the cosmos, that the only way they can make it bearable is to invent a whole layer of myth.

The world isn't good enough on its own. They revile it. It is they who don't believe that life is worth living.

How often, when atheists debate theists, the conversation ends with "well if you're right and there is no God, we might as well just kill ourselves"? This reveals an underlying nihilism in theists.

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18. Comment #82212 by EastCoastAtheist on October 25, 2007 at 9:58 pm

All you can tell by my Atheism, dear Theist, is that I don't believe in the supernatural. You haven't taken the time to find out what I do believe.

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19. Comment #82256 by atp on October 26, 2007 at 12:09 am

I believe it's a stupid argument.

Apart from that, atheisme is not defined by what people believe in. It's only defined by a lack of belief in the existence of gods.

Of course, any rational atheist would believe in science. And believing in science does not mean believing that everything science ever produces is true, but believing in the scientific method and that it over time will uncover more and more knowledge about the world and how everything works.

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20. Comment #82269 by yaaaay on October 26, 2007 at 1:19 am

Albert10110 on youtube made a brilliant video on this very subject.

"I believe our methods of courtship were at their peak when we were in the third grade, those notes that said "I like you, do you like me?" with Yes and No checkboxes were perfect."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss3ZUKo28lo

There is also a transcript here:

http://coffeeghost.net/2007/05/14/what-one-atheist-believes/

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21. Comment #82283 by daddy_phantom on October 26, 2007 at 1:53 am

I tend to reject the word "believe" in a discussion or debate. It often translates into "think something is so without any reason or evidence". In a debate it can be detrimental to start arguing the meaning of the words early on. I suggest every time your opponent says "believe", rephrase with "think" or "understand" and work in the word "evidence" often.

I also like what "Not the Messiah" said in Comment #81993:

The argument is muddied by confusing the phrase "to believe in something" with "to value something", at which point it descends into the argument that "atheists have no morals/capacity for love/appreciation of art" ..or whatever.

Yet another good reason to rephrase away from the confusing word "believe".



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22. Comment #82285 by daddy_phantom on October 26, 2007 at 1:54 am

Note: I think that what you are calling "gravity" is really just a distortion in spacetime cause by the presence of a large mass. But I am still poking into General Relativity and have a very long way to go before I can do more than quip about it.

The point is that the more we learn the more we find out that what we used to know ain't so.

:-Dan



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23. Comment #82312 by CJ22 on October 26, 2007 at 3:19 am

I usually counter this one with:

"Everybody is an atheist. Do you believe in Shiva The Destroyer? No? Do you believe in Jove, Greatest Of All The Gods? No? You're an atheist about 99.9% of all the thousands of gods invented by man over the millennia. I just go one God further than you. It's a perfectly reasonable working hypothesis that if all those Gods are wrong, yours is liekly to be wrong too"

Tricksy moderate theists will often counter this with:

"Ah but they're all just different interpretations of the same deity - God shows himself in different way in different times"

I counter this with:

"In that case, why go to church? Why don't you drink? Why do you feel sex outside of marriage is a sin? If all these interpretations are equally valid, why choose one over the other?"

When you start to pin them down on this, it usually turns out that they truly believe that THEIR interpretation is the correct one, in which case go back to the beginning and start again.

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24. Comment #82315 by GaryWM on October 26, 2007 at 3:26 am

I'll believe it when I see (for "see", read "have evidence for") it.

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25. Comment #82317 by Stevie B on October 26, 2007 at 3:35 am

I think its been posted on this site before, but for me this is the perfect summation of what I, as an atheist, 'believe' -

"YOUR PETITIONERS ARE ATHEISTS and they define their life-style as follows. An Atheist loves himself and his fellowman instead of a god. An Atheist knows that heaven is something for which we should work now — here on earth — for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist thinks that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue, and enjoy it. An Atheist thinks that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellowman can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfilment. Therefore, he seeks to know himself and his fellowman rather than to know a god. An Atheist knows that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist knows that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man. He wants an ethical way of life. He knows that we cannot rely on a god, nor channel action into prayer, nor hope for an end to troubles in the hereafter. He knows that we are our brother's keeper and keepers of our lives; that we are responsible persons, that the job is here and the time is now."


~ Madalyn Murray (later O'Hair), preamble to Murray v. Curlett, U.S. Supreme Court, April 27, 1961

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26. Comment #82423 by Nick Good on October 26, 2007 at 9:59 am

If you don't believe in God, you must not believe in anything.

It's a non sequitur.

Not only does the second statement not follow from the first; it's patently untrue! You can be a communist atheist (Mao, Marx etcetera), a monetarist atheist (Alan Greenspan), a humanist atheist (where to start), a Darwinist atheist (the good professor). You can even be a Buddhist Atheist . Indeed I suspect Sam Harris is, at least in the sense that he very clearly follows much of 'Buddha Dhamma' - Buddhist teaching. I also very strongly suspect, from what he's written and said, as well as his general demenour and deportment, that he has practiced a good deal of Vipassana meditation.

All being an atheist tells you about someone - in the absence of any other information - is that they lack belief in deities; nothing more.

The sub text if of course, that theism provides some kind 'moral compass', one unavailable to atheists, some 'invisible check' on our baser motivations, one that serves to make theists better people.

If this were so, you would expect this to be correlated with general behavior. You would expect to see atheists over represented amongst criminals, child molesters, train spotters and bed wetters. You might expect to see the standard of public and private morality lower in countries with a higher incidence of atheism.

Is this what we see?


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27. Comment #82431 by logos_tech on October 26, 2007 at 10:16 am

I believe in fraternity, liberty and equality. I believe in self-governance. I believe in the separation of church and state as the best means for protecting religion from itself as well as the non-religious from religion.

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28. Comment #82434 by Nick Good on October 26, 2007 at 10:24 am

I'm an atheist; and I rather strongly believe, that the kinetic energy of a body, is half it's mass, multiplied by the square of its velocity. I also love a few people in this world, and believe that a few of them, love me. I also happen to believe, that US policy in Iraq; is, broadly correct. Three facets of 'belief'.

One may or may not share some of these beliefs, this is not to equivocate on the meaning of "believe"... I might add, unlike the conflation of the meaning of 'faith' - in it's religious sense of 'belief without evidence' with 'faith' that the sun will come up in the morning. Something over which, all too many theists, seem willfully, to do.

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29. Comment #82505 by Spinoza on October 26, 2007 at 1:45 pm

If you don't believe in God, you must not believe in anything.

Spinoza's answer:

I believe in everything but God.

Q.E.D.

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30. Comment #82555 by Zaphod on October 26, 2007 at 5:29 pm

I believe in Kung Po Chicken.

Oh you spicy, sweet, and sour temptress.

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31. Comment #82580 by VrijzinnigMan on October 26, 2007 at 7:40 pm

I would first ask my opponent "What do you mean by 'believing in something'?" I suppose the word "to believe" in this context means "to accept as true, genuine or real" (see Webster's Online Dictionary)

I would then ask my opponent in the debate to give a few examples of what (other than God) he/she believes in. I would explain why I do or do not concur and respond with my own examples to illustrate that I only believe in something if there is supporting evidence that it is "true, genuine or real".

There is no evidence for the existence of God, so I do not believe in His existence. But I do believe in the use of statins to lower a person's bad cholesterol. The evidence is based on my own experience.

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32. Comment #82658 by debaser71 on October 27, 2007 at 6:26 am

To say that atheists believe in nothing is to suggest that to believe in god is everything.

eta: hey I like my comment, it's short, simple, and doesn't make out atheism to be anything that it is not. Please rank this comment...I ranked others. DO IT!

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33. Comment #82716 by Garnok on October 27, 2007 at 10:12 am

If I'm in a pithy mood, my response to "If you don't believe in God, you must not believe in anything" is usually, "Sure I believe in something. Case in point, I do believe that what you just said is the dumbest thing I've heard all day." But I generally use this only with those that have demonstrated an inablity or unwillingnes to look at things reasonably or those that can see the joke in it.

Otherwise, I usually reply with, "I could sit here and recite a whole list of things I believe, however, I believe that would be a pointless endeavor. If you equate belief in a god, particularly your god, with belief in anything and everything then it is unsurprising that you then see that god's hand in everything, including that which would controvert said god's existence."

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34. Comment #82803 by petergm on October 27, 2007 at 5:01 pm

Answer:
Do you believe in anything other than God?
Surely you believe in fairness and decency, in treating people with respect, in loving your family, and in leading a moral life.
I share these beliefs and many more I'm sure you could name.
It's quite likely the only disparity we have is your assignment of a supernatural being as a requirement for holding our shared beliefs.

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35. Comment #82810 by rocket777 on October 27, 2007 at 7:18 pm

I believe that people that believe in gods, or God (the one in the bible) are deluded.

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36. Comment #82815 by Quine on October 27, 2007 at 8:36 pm

I just (tonight) had a Christian missionary try to work me over on "belief." Their standard tactic is to get you to talk about some basic things you "believe," and then shift the context so that the meaning of the word comes more from the definition of "faith," and that allows them to make some example of "faith" seem, not only believable, but also "reasonable."

I did not bite on the "belief" bait. The cost is that you are going to have to use more words to keep each word in an definitional context that is not so easy for them to shift. So I said, "No, I have a mental model of future situations that leads me to reasonable expectations." I went on to describe how evidence is fed back to adjust the model. I could see in his eyes that he really wanted to get to his usual conclusions, but was stopped trying to find a way to turn "reasonable expectations" into "faith."

EDIT: Also, when they hit me with things like, "Well, you believe in gravity, don't you?" I answer, "No, I don't have to believe in gravity, I can test it!"




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37. Comment #83009 by Nautilus on October 28, 2007 at 1:51 pm

It's like saying that vegetarians don't like any food, just because they don't eat meat.

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38. Comment #83041 by Brungardt on October 28, 2007 at 4:57 pm

debaser71: "To say that atheists believe in nothing is to suggest that to believe in god is everything."

I thought the same thing but with this as a foundation I'd say:

If God is everything, I'd rather believe in nothing.

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39. Comment #83091 by Loren Michael on October 28, 2007 at 11:20 pm

Atheists don't believe in god.

Any response that references "the supernatural" have misunderstood the term.

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40. Comment #83092 by Loren Michael on October 28, 2007 at 11:33 pm

These are all incorrect:

"Atheists don't believe in anything, except the power of reasoned rational thought, free investigation and the unfettered human spirit to succeed."

"I would say that we don't believe in anything for no reason. Which just means we don't have faith in anything, not that we don't believe anything."

"We believe in gravity for many good reasons, as do all people. We don't believe in the orbiting teapot because there is no reason to."

"If by belief, you mean belief without evidence (faith), you are absolutely right. We take pride in the fact that we do not believe in things that cannot be proved rationally."

Madalyn Murray's screed about specific atheist advocacy positions are also mostly incorrect. Don't try and turn "atheism" into something it's not. It has a well-established (and simple) meaning.

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41. Comment #83182 by Mysturji on October 29, 2007 at 7:56 am

"If you don't believe in God, you must not believe in anything."

...And...?
What exactly is the problem with that?
I believe in nothing.
I do however, hold opinions about many things, because - in my opinion - it is very difficult to function in this world if I don't.
For instance, in my opinion, gravity exists, and works as described. I hold this opinion because - in my opinion - the evidence supports it.

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42. Comment #83204 by irate_atheist on October 29, 2007 at 9:13 am

Sometimes they will argue the reverse. That if we atheists don't worship God, we must worship money, celebrity or suchlike. I call this the 'Peter Hitchens' hypothesis after one of it's main proponents. It is, of course, utter tripe and provably false.

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43. Comment #84366 by anonquick on November 1, 2007 at 11:03 pm

The Gist: Reject it. Say yes we belief in stuff. Just not that stuff, and we are better for it.


Core tenet: Beliefs are psychological in nature.

Be aggressive, force the other side to admit that. Once they do, you have forced them into the secular world, which includes brains and cognition.

Even if they don't admit, it proclaim it yourself. Say I have beliefs, they are part of this secular word, nothing to do with your silly thoughts (just thoughts!), I prefer to have my thought do do with reality, and with potential realities (i.e. making the future a better than the present).

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44. Comment #84605 by Russell Blackford on November 2, 2007 at 7:40 pm

Taken literally, this is just a crazy non sequitur. It doesn't follow at all. How does failing to believe in the existence of an all-powerful disembodied spirit that dwells outside of space and time entail that, for example, I also don't believe in the existence of, say, Martina Hingis? If it's just a way of claiming that atheists have no ideals or principles, then it's totally without foundation.

Perhaps all it means is "If you don't believe in God, you don't believe in my worldview." Well? So what?

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45. Comment #84612 by Tim Friede on November 2, 2007 at 8:46 pm

We believe in ourselves, our logic, our eyes, and our honesty. We don't give up, we work hard to understand reason.

That's my first straight-up thought, kept short. TF

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46. Comment #84613 by Diacanu on November 2, 2007 at 8:56 pm

No, no, noooooo!!!
*Sob* *Sniffle*

*Pulls shades on window to big beautiful universe*

*Snuggles Bible like a Teddy, sucks thumb*
Nyoo, nyoo, nyooo.
*Sniffle*

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47. Comment #84690 by keith on November 3, 2007 at 7:52 am

Atheists believe in everything 'normal' people believe in, minus gods. Actually, the name is a bit of a give-away. Why the confusion among believers? It does exactly what it says on the tin.

My only confusion is with the wording of the topic under discussion:

"If you don't believe in God, you must not believe in anything".

As it stands, this is an order not to believe in anything. The opposite of 'you must believe in something' when talking about logical deduction is 'you can't believe in anything', not 'you must not'. This, surely, is the sense in which it is meant.

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48. Comment #84693 by keith on November 3, 2007 at 8:00 am

Loren Michael,
Sorry, I pretty much repeated your posts. I only saw them after I posted.
By the way, is that you on your avatar? You look like a very pleasant chap.

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49. Comment #84821 by Elentar on November 3, 2007 at 6:03 pm

This argument is what I call "The Last Dogma", because it often persists in former believers after they have walked away from religion. The anything here is anything moral. The claim is that loss of belief leads to nihilism--as Dostoyevsky put it, "Without God, everything is permissable." This is a very pernicious doctrine, because it amounts to a kind of moral brinksmanship.

Former believers of strict faiths sometimes run amok after leaving their religions because of this. They actually persist in the opinion that there can be no morality without faith. But in fact, they have never exercised the capacity for independent moral judgement. They acted by rote, rather than by the study of action and consequence--never understanding that one could work out right and wrong for oneself. The still, quiet voice of conscience was drowned out long ago by the rantings of a bellicose preacher.

The sad thing is that in communities where religion--and this doctrine--predominate, the religion really does become necessary to hold destructive behaviour in check. The capacity for independent ethical consideration is so atrophied that they need to be told what to do.

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50. Comment #84924 by killer_rabbit79 on November 4, 2007 at 8:06 am

I believe that theists are wrong.

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