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Lessons in hate found at leading mosques
by Sean O'Neill, Times Online
Thanks to porterdyn and Linda Ward Selbie for the link.
Reposted from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2767252.ece
Books calling for the beheading of lapsed Muslims, ordering women to remain indoors and forbidding interfaith marriage are being sold inside some of Britain's leading mosques, according to research seen by The Times.
Some of the fundamentalist works were found at the bookshop in the London Central mosque in Regent's Park, which is funded by the Saudi regime and is regularly visited by government ministers. Its director, Ahmad al-Dubayan, is also a Saudi diplomat and was among those greeting King Abdullah when he arrived in Britain last night for his official state visit.
Extremist literature, including passages supporting the stoning of adulterers and waging violent jihad, was also found on sale at many other mosques regarded as mainstream institutions.
More than 80 books and pamphlets were collected during a year-long project in which researchers visited 100 mosques across Britain.
One book, Fatawa Islamiyah, which urges the execution of apostates, was found in bookshops at Regent's Park mosque and at the huge East London mosque in Whitechapel. Muhammad Abdul Bari, the secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), is the chairman of the East London mosque.
The researchers said that they found further controversial works during visits to mosques in Manchester, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Oxford and High Wycombe.
The Times has learnt that five of the books that were acquired by researchers had been also found in searches during Scotland Yard antiterrorist investigations since 2001. About half of the books collected were in English – raising questions about the emphasis placed by the Government in combating extremism by training more English-speaking imams. The other publications were in Arabic or Urdu. The report, The Hijacking of British Islam, is published by the conservative Policy Exchange think-tank and was written by Denis MacEoin, a Fellow at Newcastle University and expert on Islamic issues.
The researchers found hardline material at a quarter of the 100 mosques visited during the project.
The report said: "On the one hand, the results were reassuring: in only a minority of institutions – approximately 25 per cent – was radical material found.
"What is more worrying is that these are among the best-funded and most dynamic institutions in Muslim Britain – some of which are held up as mainstream bodies. Many of the institutions featured here have been endowed with official recognition."
A key theme of the books was a "strident sectarianism" which told Muslims that they should remain separate from other faiths and resist integration. The report stated: "Simply put, these notions demand that the individual Muslim must not merely feel deep affection for and identity with his fellow believers and with all that is authentically Islamic. The individual Muslim must also feel an abhorrence for nonbelievers, hypocrites, heretics, and all that is deemed 'unIslamic'. The latter category encompasses those Muslims who are judged to practise an insufficiently rigorous form of Islam." Most books stopped short of calling for violence. But they created a climate of intolerance and contempt for nonMuslims that could be exploited by violent jihadists, the researchers said.
The report called for a radical overhaul of Britain's relationship with Saudi Arabia, which it argued has a "powerful and malign" influence over British Islam and sponsored the export of fundamentalist Islamic doctrine.
Regent's Park mosque said that the bookshop on its premises was run by a private company. Yunes Teniaz, of the London Central Mosque Trust, told The Times: "The bookshop is franchised to a separate organisation. These books express their authors' opinions and not those of the London Central Mosque Trust."
Inayat Bunglawala, the MCB assistant secretary-general, said: "Bookshops sell a variety of publications and we live in an open, democratic society where it is not illegal to sell books which contain antiWestern views."
Fundamental views
Extracts from works found on sale in British mosques
"And if he apostatises after that, his head should be chopped off, according to the Hadith: 'Whoever changes his religion, kill him'."
(Fatawa Islamiyah – Islamic Verdicts, volume 5; reported found at the East London mosque and the London Central mosque)
"Whoever takes part in stoning a married adulterer is rewarded for that, and it is not fitting for anyone to abstain from it if a ruling of stoning is issued."
(Fatawa Islamiyah – Islamic Verdicts, volume 6; reported found at the East London mosque)
"Some Kinds of Women Who Will Go to Hell
1. The Grumbler … the woman who complains against her husband every now and then is one of Hell.
2. The Woman Who Adorns Herself.
3. The Woman Who Apes Men, Tattoos, Cuts Hair Short and Alters Nature.
(Women Who Deserve to Go to Hell: East London mosque; Muslim Education Centre, High Wycombe)
Reposted from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2767252.ece
Books calling for the beheading of lapsed Muslims, ordering women to remain indoors and forbidding interfaith marriage are being sold inside some of Britain's leading mosques, according to research seen by The Times.
Some of the fundamentalist works were found at the bookshop in the London Central mosque in Regent's Park, which is funded by the Saudi regime and is regularly visited by government ministers. Its director, Ahmad al-Dubayan, is also a Saudi diplomat and was among those greeting King Abdullah when he arrived in Britain last night for his official state visit.
Extremist literature, including passages supporting the stoning of adulterers and waging violent jihad, was also found on sale at many other mosques regarded as mainstream institutions.
More than 80 books and pamphlets were collected during a year-long project in which researchers visited 100 mosques across Britain.
One book, Fatawa Islamiyah, which urges the execution of apostates, was found in bookshops at Regent's Park mosque and at the huge East London mosque in Whitechapel. Muhammad Abdul Bari, the secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), is the chairman of the East London mosque.
The researchers said that they found further controversial works during visits to mosques in Manchester, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Oxford and High Wycombe.
The Times has learnt that five of the books that were acquired by researchers had been also found in searches during Scotland Yard antiterrorist investigations since 2001. About half of the books collected were in English – raising questions about the emphasis placed by the Government in combating extremism by training more English-speaking imams. The other publications were in Arabic or Urdu. The report, The Hijacking of British Islam, is published by the conservative Policy Exchange think-tank and was written by Denis MacEoin, a Fellow at Newcastle University and expert on Islamic issues.
The researchers found hardline material at a quarter of the 100 mosques visited during the project.
The report said: "On the one hand, the results were reassuring: in only a minority of institutions – approximately 25 per cent – was radical material found.
"What is more worrying is that these are among the best-funded and most dynamic institutions in Muslim Britain – some of which are held up as mainstream bodies. Many of the institutions featured here have been endowed with official recognition."
A key theme of the books was a "strident sectarianism" which told Muslims that they should remain separate from other faiths and resist integration. The report stated: "Simply put, these notions demand that the individual Muslim must not merely feel deep affection for and identity with his fellow believers and with all that is authentically Islamic. The individual Muslim must also feel an abhorrence for nonbelievers, hypocrites, heretics, and all that is deemed 'unIslamic'. The latter category encompasses those Muslims who are judged to practise an insufficiently rigorous form of Islam." Most books stopped short of calling for violence. But they created a climate of intolerance and contempt for nonMuslims that could be exploited by violent jihadists, the researchers said.
The report called for a radical overhaul of Britain's relationship with Saudi Arabia, which it argued has a "powerful and malign" influence over British Islam and sponsored the export of fundamentalist Islamic doctrine.
Regent's Park mosque said that the bookshop on its premises was run by a private company. Yunes Teniaz, of the London Central Mosque Trust, told The Times: "The bookshop is franchised to a separate organisation. These books express their authors' opinions and not those of the London Central Mosque Trust."
Inayat Bunglawala, the MCB assistant secretary-general, said: "Bookshops sell a variety of publications and we live in an open, democratic society where it is not illegal to sell books which contain antiWestern views."
Fundamental views
Extracts from works found on sale in British mosques
"And if he apostatises after that, his head should be chopped off, according to the Hadith: 'Whoever changes his religion, kill him'."
(Fatawa Islamiyah – Islamic Verdicts, volume 5; reported found at the East London mosque and the London Central mosque)
"Whoever takes part in stoning a married adulterer is rewarded for that, and it is not fitting for anyone to abstain from it if a ruling of stoning is issued."
(Fatawa Islamiyah – Islamic Verdicts, volume 6; reported found at the East London mosque)
"Some Kinds of Women Who Will Go to Hell
1. The Grumbler … the woman who complains against her husband every now and then is one of Hell.
2. The Woman Who Adorns Herself.
3. The Woman Who Apes Men, Tattoos, Cuts Hair Short and Alters Nature.
(Women Who Deserve to Go to Hell: East London mosque; Muslim Education Centre, High Wycombe)
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Posted: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 52 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #83607 by SilentMike on October 30, 2007 at 3:52 pm
The report said: "On the one hand, the results were reassuring: in only a minority of institutions - approximately 25 per cent – was radical material found.
Reassuring? "Only" 25% had litarature in the advocating murder?
What the bloody hell is wrong with these people?
Other Comments by SilentMike
3. Comment #83610 by PrimeNumbers on October 30, 2007 at 3:59 pm
It's time for this to end. It is not, and never had been free speach to threaten death to others. It's time to tell Muslims that their behaviour is unnaceptable, that they will cease and desist from such extemism. If they do not alter their religious books to remove all commandments to violence and intolerance, then it will have to be done for them, and the old style books removed and destroyed. Other Comments by PrimeNumbers
4. Comment #83613 by SilentMike on October 30, 2007 at 4:20 pm
It's time that somebody told the Saudi royal family that if they don't don't stop enciting every crazy violent urge in Islam they're going to be made to drink all that oil.Seriously. We already know that their money's going to enciting crazy radical Islam. How much more of this backstabbing are we supposed to take?
Other Comments by SilentMike
5. Comment #83614 by NakedCelt on October 30, 2007 at 4:28 pm
It's time that somebody told the Saudi royal family that if they don't don't stop enciting every crazy violent urge in Islam they're going to be made to drink all that oil... their money's going to enciting crazy radical Islam...
And where is "their" money coming from? We are funding these people at the petrol pump.
If you want to see radical Islam weakened, a good first step would be finding a viable, renewable alternative energy source to oil.
Other Comments by NakedCelt
6. Comment #83615 by ramses on October 30, 2007 at 4:34 pm
Aren't these mosques with hate documents aware of the "Islam is Peace" (www.islamispeace.org.uk) campaign?? Did nobody tell them??Other Comments by ramses
7. Comment #83617 by Duff on October 30, 2007 at 4:42 pm
If you, by choice, drive a gas guzzler, and if you, by choice, waste resources, you enable these arab, stone-aged, simpletons. You make the choice. No one lives in a vacuum these days.Other Comments by Duff
8. Comment #83621 by dhudson0001 on October 30, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Dont get me wrong, I agree that enough is enough, I just don't see how this differs so much from selling the bible at the local B&N store or church bookstore for that matter. Remember Deuteronomy teaches us that we must stone to death anyone who "secretly entices you to worship another god".
So what really then is the major difference here?
(i would just add - it just helps drive home the point that religion is all fun and games until one actually takes it seriously)
Other Comments by dhudson0001
9. Comment #83624 by Conrad on October 30, 2007 at 5:25 pm
A woman who simply GRUMBLES EVERY NOW AND AGAIN is of hell?Assuming then the man isn't perfect, his wife is not allowed to call him out on his asshatery? No wonder there is currently such a large number of Islamic wingnuts. They don't have any self correcting mechanisms in their lives, namely, a wife that can call "bullshit".
Other Comments by Conrad
10. Comment #83625 by Bonzai on October 30, 2007 at 5:36 pm
Remember Deuteronomy teaches us that we must stone to death anyone who "secretly entices you to worship another god".
So what really then is the major difference here?
The difference is nobody believes in imposing the Mosaic Laws anymore. No one gets sentenced to death for adultery or worshiping false Gods in Israel or the Vatican but Sharia is still the official law in many Muslim countries.
Mainstream Judaism and Christianity don't take the bible literally. The holy books themselves may say very nasty things but they can be read allegorically. But the books in question here are interpretative works of the Islam religion by Muslim theologians, they are what these people truly believe!
While I disagree with the knee jerk, over the top hysteria by one of our posters here. It is naive to think all religions are untrue so they are just as bad. This is a fallacy that people who look at religions simply as truth claims fall into.
Religions are also political and social institutions and there are important differences in details besides the overarching truth claims.
Some religions are much worse than the others, not because necessarily what was written on the books, but because the way the religions are actually practiced. Christianity has been tamed by secularism, but not Islam. Falwell would a liberal next to mainstream Islamic clerics.
Other Comments by Bonzai
11. Comment #83628 by kraut on October 30, 2007 at 5:58 pm
"A key theme of the books was a "strident sectarianism" which told Muslims that they should remain separate from other faiths and resist integration."This is an often repeated theme in the koran, part of the basic creed.
"Some religions are much worse than the others, not because necessarily what was written on the books, but because the way the religions are actually practiced. Christianity has been tamed by secularism, but not Islam. Falwell would a liberal next to mainstream Islamic clerics."
It is naive to believe fundamental christians are basically different from fundamental muslims.
Just listen to Dobson et.al.
Other Comments by kraut
12. Comment #83630 by steveroot on October 30, 2007 at 6:02 pm
Inayat Bunglawala, the MCB assistant secretary-general, said: "Bookshops sell a variety of publications and we live in an open, democratic society where it is not illegal to sell books which contain antiWestern views."
Surely, then, in such an open, democratic society it would not be objectionable to publish anti-islamic material (even cartoons!). Fair is fair.
Steve
Other Comments by steveroot
13. Comment #83632 by Bonzai on October 30, 2007 at 6:11 pm
Kraut,It is naive to believe fundamental christians are basically different from fundamental muslims
Yes they are.
Even Falwell didn't believe in a full blown theocracy with Mosaic laws. But all mainstream Islamic theologians believe in Sharia and Islamic state. So here you go.
All four main schools of Sunni Islam jurisprudence agree that male apostates have to be killed (punishments for female range from life imprisonment to execution). I never heard the Pope, the Falwells or the Robertsons saying anything even close.
You can probably find some extremely fringe characters from Christianity such as Phelps or the Dominionists with comparable lunacy, but even the "mainstream" Christian Right wants nothing to do with them.
Other Comments by Bonzai
14. Comment #83637 by Fanusi Khiyal on October 30, 2007 at 6:31 pm
I'm waiting for the inevitable comments about 'right wing propaganda'...Anyway, Bonzai you've touched on a very important point. Christian fundamentalism has nothing on orthodox Islam.
I will say though that parts of this article are farcial:
"On the one hand, the results were reassuring: in only a minority of institutions – approximately 25 per cent – was radical material found.
How is this reassuring? Imagine if we found literature advocating the killing of apostates in even 2% of Christian Churches. We'd go ballistic.
Anyway, the figure's false. You'll find that stuff in 100% of all real Mosques, it'll just be inside Sahih al-Bukhari, which people believe they can safely ignore. They can't.
Yunes Teniaz, of the London Central Mosque Trust, told The Times: "The bookshop is franchised to a separate organisation. These books express their authors' opinions and not those of the London Central Mosque Trust."
And if you believe that, I have a car to sell you.
Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal
15. Comment #83640 by Goldy on October 30, 2007 at 6:48 pm
So, Independent, Daily Telegraph and the Times all have something vaguely anti-Islamic. Didn't I mention on another thread the growing backlash Islamic protests have provoked in our media?Other Comments by Goldy
16. Comment #83643 by Bonzai on October 30, 2007 at 7:03 pm
I think what creates the backlash is the arrogance of some so called Muslim leaders. Whenever something embarrassing got exposed like the undercover mosque documentary their instinctive reaction is to accuse the media of "Islamophobia" instead of cleaning house. Well if there is one iota of truth in what has been uncovered lately about the state of mosques I think there is a good reason to be "phobic" about Islam.I don't believe in mass deportation, internment or anything like that. But I have no problem in banning Wahabi clerics from entering the country, screening Saudi money and material and closing down mosques and faith schools that are found to be preaching hate or threatening people for leaving Islam. If any new religion advocates death against identifiable groups such as homosexuals and makes physical threats against ex members it would certainly be branded a cult and shut down and its leader charged. Why do we make exception to Islam? The same policy should apply to mosques.
In this case I think these books should be confiscated and banned. Some people worry that this may drive the literature underground. But it cannot be worse than it is now when we allow these things to circulate openly without doing anything. At least banning them sends a strong message that enough is enough.
Other Comments by Bonzai
17. Comment #83645 by dhudson0001 on October 30, 2007 at 7:14 pm
Christianity has been tamed by secularism, but not Islam. Falwell would a liberal next to mainstream Islamic clerics.
I'm in agreement. However, a tamed christian is still an enabler.
In any case, I was speaking not so much of the majority interpretation of the bible by the church and it's followers, than of the way any one individual might interpret the various passages of the "holy text".
As Harris says, "all we have are conversations", and in this light, the bible and the koran equally shout out in deviant unison. So again I ask, what really is the difference when we see a a row of bibles in Barnes & Nobles?
I think we simply must continue to ask ourselves and others over and over about a safe future.
Simply stated, we have a huge moral obligation to be responsible ancestors, so where can we have the most effect as individuals?
I think the answer is all around us.
Most of us here probably live entrenched in religious moderation- opportunities abound! The more pressure we put on those around us who are al a carte moderates, the faster we could see the law of exponentials take hold.
I hate to be the one to say it but we REALLY need exponential growth chart here people..how many of you are willing to bet that we have more than a few decades to set this right before it's too late?
Perhaps Dr. Dawkins knows a futurist or two who would like to take a shot at projecting at what rate we would need to grow as secularists in order to save humanity?
If your wondering or thinking I must be joking, I'm not!
Other Comments by dhudson0001
18. Comment #83647 by Alkal on October 30, 2007 at 7:23 pm
... why are they so worried about women who will go hell, it would make them enjoy their 72 virgin heaven more, wouldn't it, being bereft of all these women...Anyhow ALL religion needs to be BANNED
Other Comments by Alkal
19. Comment #83656 by notbadfora human on October 30, 2007 at 7:54 pm
"I hate to be the one to say it but we REALLY need exponential growth chart here people..how many of you are willing to bet that we have more than a few decades to set this right before it's too late?"I don't think we have a few decades. Within a few years Iran or some other fundamentalist group will have access to WMD. Then we are fucked. Our pale blue dot will become one faded brown pimple and some other race (Cockroaches?) will inherit the earth. In time, they will find God and religion, and start arguing... and the circle will be complete...
Other Comments by notbadfora human
20. Comment #83663 by HappyPrimate on October 30, 2007 at 8:26 pm
This is a serious subject and we really must get the closet atheists out and talking and making noises loud enough to be heard over the den of these people who just want to tolerate this hateful stuff being drummed into children day in and day out. The xians are not seeing that they are in fact enabling this to go on by insisting we acquiese to their beliefs on social issues based solely on biblical writings and what their authoritative preachers and priests tell them.Speak up and speak out now. Every voice counts. Enough emails/phone calls and correspondence to the Louisiana senator sponsoring it enabled us to stop federal funding of a religious charity herein Louisiana. A small start but you cannot sit back and just give up or yes, cockroaches will inherit our planet.
On a lighter side. Have you seen this guy? He is so funny. Gotta laugh sometimes too.
Achmed The Terrorist
http://www.break.com/index/achmed-the-terrorist.html
Other Comments by HappyPrimate
21. Comment #83670 by Paskoo on October 30, 2007 at 8:49 pm
Most religions are an "all or none phenomenon". Either you beleive in them in entirety or you get cured from the mental disease that you were most likely born with. All these books that are from supposedly peaceful religions like Islam or Judaism or christianity will always be full of hatred and ignorance. Remember Quran and Bible are supposed to be word of God. If these books are full of hate than any interpretations of these books are to be full of hate as well. It's not these books that are a problem as such because most of the violent and bigoted followers of reliogions probably cannot even read these books. Problems in this world will always be blind followers and the wicked religious leaders. Quran is nothing more than a twisted version of Bible that Mohammad used to fulfill his personal agenda and of course Bible has to a twisted version of some other material that Jesus and his cronies used to turn people into puppets. If you doubt in these books you doubt in the word of the "Big Guy". You cannot have a religion if you do not beleive in the hate.Farooq Nasim
An ex-Muslim
"Cured now"
Other Comments by Paskoo
22. Comment #83692 by shaunfletcher on October 31, 2007 at 12:49 am
Inayat Bunglawala, the MCB assistant secretary-general, said: "Bookshops sell a variety of publications and we live in an open, democratic society where it is not illegal to sell books which contain antiWestern views."
No but its IS illegal to sell books which advocate murder. Definitely illegal, which leads to the question of why police found these books and took, presumably, no action?
Other Comments by shaunfletcher
23. Comment #83695 by Goldy on October 31, 2007 at 1:19 am
There must be something to make this happen - people don't believe in this hate filled stuff generally. An Iraqi delivered my daughter, another is going to fix my hernia. Both, whatever their religion, were influenced by Islamic society and both are bloody good blokes (as far as I can tell). I meet Muslims all the time and none of them strike me as particularly depraved. All pretty much thought the Danish imam was a fuckwit stirring up trouble (especially when finding out he had to doctor his picture portfolio before the start of his Middle East tour...and the Danes allowed him back in!) over a set of cartoons. Working in Syria, most Muslims I met liked beer (Abu Laurence - named after you know who for his smuggling exploits - particularly liked whisky - naughty Shia that he was!) and were partial to a bacon butty. Hell, most of them thought God was OK but life is life and he doesn't seem to troule them greatly.So why this hatred in the mosques? I think some Chinese action is called for - don't ban the religion, but a wee bit of scrutiny of what's on offer is in order...though saying that there are more underground Catholics than there are Patriotic Catholics...
People tell me there is nothing we can do as the Koran is the inerrant word of God. Piffle. Indonesia was not Muslim before the advent of Islamic traders and so can change again. Southern Spain was Islamic...is it now? Were Bosniacs virtuous Muslims (at least before Milosevic sent them running into Wahab's arms)?
People change. I just hope the government listens to those that can effect this change without recourse to bloodshed.
Other Comments by Goldy
24. Comment #83700 by Fanusi Khiyal on October 31, 2007 at 1:32 am
Goldy This is one of the nastiest lessons about humanity. The same people who care for their children, and help out the neighbour, and are pillars of the community, can engage is the most viscious cruelty imaginable.To give an example:
Were Bosniacs virtuous Muslims (at least before Milosevic sent them running into Wahab's arms)?
No. These are the guys that killed 90% of the Jewish population of that region during the Second World War, allied with Hitler via the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and formed the Handscharr SS division.
Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal
25. Comment #83701 by SilentMike on October 31, 2007 at 1:34 am
5. Comment #83614 by NakedCeltAnd where is "their" money coming from? We are funding these people at the petrol pump.
Yes. I am aware of the irony. I would say though that the house of Saud bares some resposibility because of the way they choose to use the oil money.
If you want to see radical Islam weakened, a good first step would be finding a viable, renewable alternative energy source to oil.
Agreed. But I don't see oil becoming valueless any time soon, so in the meantime I suggest we try to do something about the way all that oil money is spent.
Other Comments by SilentMike
26. Comment #83703 by Philip1978 on October 31, 2007 at 1:57 am
I grew up in High Wycombe, I have seen it become more and more dangerous as time has gone on. 20 years ago nobody, but nobody, would be doing half the things that I see down there now. (Cor, I am sounding old here!) Wycombe has become a very violent place, especially over the weekends, I still hear now of stabbings and even shootings that I would never have believed possible. What shocked me even more is that I went to school with some of the terrorists arrested, I think that was last year, not sure. That was when they found bomb making equipment in some woods where I used to play as a kid and rounded up a load of men who were planning to do some terrible acts of violence.
I mostly think its is due to gang culture and religion, Wycombe is full of chavs and religious idiots who are constantly making the place where I grew up a nightmare. People get into fights over absolutely nothing and it just a minority of people doing this. It worries me that so much hate is being brewed up, but thinking about it these book findings are of no surprise to me, after what I have seen already books about Jihad, stoning people etc are nothing out of the ordinary.
This is a great pity, High Wycombe is actually quite a lovely place with some amazing people living there, I hope something can be done about it
Philip
Other Comments by Philip1978
27. Comment #83718 by Mike O'Risal on October 31, 2007 at 3:29 am
In other news, Jews are preventing Muslims from ruling the world by selling them drugs. No, really, Lebanese television says so. In fact, all that Jewish drug-dealing is why the Nazis had to exterminate a few million Jews. It all makes perfect sense now, doesn't it?Religion is such a unifying force. Why, we'd have no morality without it and we certainly wouldn't be loving our neighbors. Where would we be without the voices in some prophets' heads telling us who to kill next?
Other Comments by Mike O'Risal
28. Comment #83721 by NJS on October 31, 2007 at 3:46 am
Why waste time on leaflets and books when all the instructions and encouragements exist in the Koran and the Bible?And those who say no christian advocates Leviticus etc needs to watch the root of all evil and see RD interview the American who just stopped short of actually stating he'd approve of stoning for adultery - you could see it too him effort to stop.
Other Comments by NJS
29. Comment #83740 by stevencarrwork on October 31, 2007 at 5:27 am
I detect double-standards here.Do you hear Muslims complaining about the books openly on sale in Britain which claim that Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old girl, or that Muhammad ordered the assassination of opponents?
Do you see the Times trying to track down the publishers of these books?
Other Comments by stevencarrwork
30. Comment #83743 by epeeist on October 31, 2007 at 5:46 am
Comment #83740 by stevencarrwork
Do you hear Muslims complaining about the books openly on sale in Britain which claim that Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old girl, or that Muhammad ordered the assassination of opponents?
Certainly what I found when working in Bradford here in the UK was that it was the Asian newsagents that sold the least salubrious of the top shelf magazines (not that I bought any you understand).
Other Comments by epeeist
31. Comment #83745 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on October 31, 2007 at 5:58 am
29. Comment #83740 by stevencarrwork on October 31, 2007 at 5:27 amI detect double-standards here.
Do you hear Muslims complaining about the books openly on sale in Britain which claim that Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old girl, or that Muhammad ordered the assassination of opponents?
Ummm yes? Much more than complaining!!!
Do you see the Times trying to track down the publishers of these books?
Why would they? These are not calls to murder people, rather they are matters of opinion (and perhaps fact) with regard to history.
No, No, exposing this kind of stuff is exactly correct. As long is it reflects actual reality, you'll hear no complaints from me. Muslims should be ashamed and humiliated by these revelations. Which in my mind is all to the good. The way to avoid that pain in the future is to drive the wahabists from their midst themselves, and ignore the bullshit bits of the Koran as Christians do with the Bible.
Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen
32. Comment #83747 by Luthien on October 31, 2007 at 6:06 am
29. Comment #83740 by stevencarrwork on October 31, 2007 at 5:27 am
I detect double-standards here.
Do you hear Muslims complaining about the books openly on sale in Britain which claim that Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old girl, or that Muhammad ordered the assassination of opponents?
Do you see the Times trying to track down the publishers of these books?
No, no, no, you have got it all wrong! The books that claim that Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old girl are on sale in the muslim bookstores.
(Go look if you don't believe me.)
Other Comments by Luthien
33. Comment #83748 by CJ22 on October 31, 2007 at 6:06 am
Surely selling these books is 'incitement to religious hatred' isn't it? Sauce for the goose... Other Comments by CJ22
34. Comment #83752 by Bonzai on October 31, 2007 at 6:23 am
Goldy,There must be something to make this happen - people don't believe in this hate filled stuff generally. An Iraqi delivered my daughter, another is going to fix my hernia. Both, whatever their religion, were influenced by Islamic society and both are bloody good blokes.
I also know some Muslims like those you described. But I am in Canada, don't know how it is in the U.K. The Muslims I know don't go to Mosques. I was told the true "moderates" don't hang around Mosques anyhow so they won't know what goes on there and don't feel they have any special obligations to raise hell above and beyond the non Muslims. The exact words were 'Mosques are for losers.'
Based on what I read the Wahabis are taking over the mosques with Saudi money, typically they approach a Mosque with financial difficulties, offering cash with the condition of distributing Wahabi materials, that's probably why they find those books in the Mosques. In some cases they actually take over and replace the Imams with Wahabi preachers. Last year in BC a Muslim congregation was upset that their Imam was fired and a new guy from Pakistan was brought in to teach hatred against Jews and Christians. The congregation complained to the authority and get the guy kicked out of the country, good for them.
We should be vigilant and crack down hard on the hate mongers and fanatics, in particular we should closely monitor the activities of Saudis and their proxies and ban their materials when feasible, but we must not tar all muslims with the same brush, they are not monolithic.
Other Comments by Bonzai
35. Comment #83759 by Bonzai on October 31, 2007 at 6:42 am
I find these Muslims quite reasonable.http://muslimwakeup.com/
Other Comments by Bonzai
36. Comment #83764 by SilentMike on October 31, 2007 at 7:14 am
27. Comment #83718 by Mike O'RisalIn other news, Jews are preventing Muslims from ruling the world by selling them drugs. No, really, Lebanese television says so. In fact, all that Jewish drug-dealing is why the Nazis had to exterminate a few million Jews. It all makes perfect sense now, doesn't it?
I'm confused. Do these guys hate me more because I'm an atheist or because I come from a jewish background? It's really important to know these things...
I find this obsession with "The jews" highly unhealthy. Christianity and Islam have been around for thosands of years. Isn't it about time they grow up, stand on their own feet and stop blaming every damn thing on their parent religion and it members (practicing or just born into)?
Other Comments by SilentMike
37. Comment #83767 by Fanusi Khiyal on October 31, 2007 at 7:22 am
I find this obsession with "The jews" highly unhealthy. Christianity and Ilam have been around for thosands of years. Isn't it about time they grow up, stand on their own feet and stop blaming every damn thing on their parent religion and it members (practicing or just born into)?
It's actually a minor law of sociology. Ever collection of incompetent tosspots has always had it in for the jews. Dunno why. It's just the way things seem to turn out.l
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38. Comment #83769 by Philip1978 on October 31, 2007 at 7:27 am
"It's actually a minor law of sociology. Ever collection of incompetent tosspots has always had it in for the jews. Dunno why. It's just the way things seem to turn out."Ah, that's easy, the other Abrahamic religions arrived way after the Jews did, I reckon its jealousy! Plus the Christians and Muslim's plagiarised loads and are probably seeing how they can hide all that by being nasty to them! :)
Philip
Other Comments by Philip1978
39. Comment #83773 by tieInterceptor on October 31, 2007 at 7:54 am
Ever collection of incompetent tosspots has always had it in for the jews. Dunno why. It's just the way things seem to turn out.
I think at the time Jews where in a position of power and had the religion,
To make a new chapter on the story (easier than making a brand new cult) and to make sure of demonising the original sect... sounds like the kind of stuff I would do If I was a manipulative conqueror.
Worked for Hitler, nothing rallies more the people than a common enemy, having on-demand-divine-revelations it's just a plus, and gives you lots of gravitas.
The fact that Mohammed had 2 poets assassinated just for making fun of him also lines up with the insecure megalomaniac CSI-stile profiling.
ps:... and Jews do not mix with other people, that is quite snobbish ;)
Other Comments by tieInterceptor
40. Comment #83783 by Dinah on October 31, 2007 at 9:11 am
Our Government sends troops to Afghanistan to fight the Taliban. Meanwhile, the Deobandi – the Muslim sect behind the Taliban – are allowed to take over nearly half the mosques in this country. If it wasn't so utterly tragic and rage-making it would be laughable.Other Comments by Dinah
41. Comment #83800 by Steven Mading on October 31, 2007 at 10:15 am
Posted by Bonzai
Mainstream Judaism and Christianity don't take the bible literally. The holy books themselves may say very nasty things but they can be read allegorically. But the books in question here are interpretative works of the Islam religion by Muslim theologians, they are what these people truly believe!
While I agree that Islam does not use the metaphor dodge as much as Christianity does, and therefore their books are more in-line with their practices, I still think there is a huge problem with viewing the bible as allegory. An allegorical tale to teach what lesson exactly? Even when people don't believe the bible is actually telling true stories, there's still a huge problem - exactly what is supposed to be the allegorical moral of a story that says it's good to stone people to death for leaving their religion?
With an allegorical tale like, say, the race between the tortise and the hare, you can glean a nice moral lesson from the story even though you believe it to be fiction - slow and steady perseverance beats fast spurts with lazy interludes. But with bible "allegories" it is often that not only are they untrue, but they also teach morals that are completely deplorable. (For example, what is the nice moral of the story of Abraham deciding it was okay to sacrifice his son just because a giant powerful authority figure told him to? The moral of that story is that obedience to the biggest authority is automatically virtuous and you should ignore your own puny lsser moral objections and just obey.)
So all I'm saying is that it's false to characterize the nicer nature of modern Christians as being the result of them taking the nasty bible stories as mere allegory. Even if you took them as allegory you'd STILL end up with exactly the same deplorable morality. The reason modern Christians are nicer is NOT because they converted the bible from truth to fictional allegory. It's because they simply ignore parts of it altogether, and don't even take it as allegory either.
To "heal" Islam requires something similar - not JUST turning the holy texts into allegories - that's not sufficient. The notion of accepting that parts of it are just okay to purely ignore altogether is what's needed.
Other Comments by Steven Mading
42. Comment #83808 by Vinelectric on October 31, 2007 at 10:57 am
It's actually a minor law of sociology. Ever collection of incompetent tosspots has always had it in for the jews. Dunno why. It's just the way things seem to turn out.l
The Lebanese were probably referring to their neighbours the Israelis and they have every right to despise them.
C'mon, do you expect to rape the geography of an already turbulent region with a racist Jewish state AND claim the two million or so refugees who were torn off their homelands never existed and expect to be loved and respected?
No. These are the guys that killed 90% of the Jewish population of that region during the Second World War, allied with Hitler via the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and formed the Handscharr SS division.
What is wrong with your head? Did they all individually pledge allegiance to the grand mufti? Did they all individually participate in killing the Jews in that area?
Other Comments by Vinelectric
43. Comment #83829 by BicycleRepairMan on October 31, 2007 at 12:20 pm
Books calling for the beheading of lapsed Muslims, ordering women to remain indoors and forbidding interfaith marriage are being sold inside some of Britain's leading mosquesWe have the same hate-mongering books in my local bookstore, they are called "The Qu'ran" I hear it sells pretty well too.
Other Comments by BicycleRepairMan
44. Comment #83853 by Goldy on October 31, 2007 at 1:32 pm
I find this obsession with "The jews" highly unhealthy.
SilentMike, it's all persuasive! Sometimes it does get very out of hand, as this BBC HYS entry shows...
May I also remind you that Wahabism was a founded by the British/ Zionists together with Al Saudi and Ibn Wahaab who himself was not a Muslim.
I believe this was from, nominally, an Arab contributer, though one can't tell really (might be a hoax).
But rest assured, the jews do get help - from the British. You are not alone ;-)
As it is, a total load of bollocks, right up there with the "But it's not my god" excuse.
There's more to these than meets our eyes - we only know what we are told. How many of us have been caught up in situations we find uncomfortable because of the actions of a minority? A small minority (what is the percentage of terrorists to general population. Worldwide - make things easier) that dictate their agenda because there is no real way of stopping them (and if the state that condemns them with words but condones them in deed does nowt, what can the "moderate" do?).
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45. Comment #83899 by SilentMike on October 31, 2007 at 3:32 pm
For such a all powerful and influential lot we sure got our asses kicked a lot throughout history...Other Comments by SilentMike
46. Comment #83902 by Goldy on October 31, 2007 at 3:39 pm
Perils of being God's chosen, I guess :-) For more examples of the power of Zionism, read Arabnews.com. An Arabia (duh! No shit, Mike G...what with that title!) publication - has some very interesting letters and the Islam section is to die for :-DStill, could be worse - you might have been Kurdish and STILL be waiting for your homeland to appear...
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47. Comment #83910 by SilentMike on October 31, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Actually I am wating for a Kurdish homeland to appear. Wouldn't it be nice to have another one of those all too rare non-crazy Muslim majority states?Other Comments by SilentMike
48. Comment #83912 by Goldy on October 31, 2007 at 4:05 pm
I think that non-crazy Muslim majority state next door might have a few complaints...and it is one of our allies (our as in NATO). Still, they had to give up Eastern Armenia, so I guess anything is possible...You do realise this would be a Jewish plot to take over the whole region.
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49. Comment #83917 by SilentMike on October 31, 2007 at 4:20 pm
The Kurdish state doesn't have to include the turkish part. I think these guys should sit down and talk instead of getting each other all riled up. They can establish a Kurdish state in northerd Iraq (and maybe north-eastern Iran if all the puzzle pieces fall into place) and then the kurds in Turky will have a choice. They can stay in Turky as turkish citizens or move to the new Kurdistan (like jews converged to israel). Things can work out when people make compromises (A word some religious people have truble with).Other Comments by SilentMike
50. Comment #83944 by Goldy on October 31, 2007 at 6:32 pm
Somehow I can't see that happening....Ah, well, blame the Zionists and the British. It all their fault, yadda, yadda.
Letter in the Independent today
Sir: As an Englishman who lived in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia over two decades, circulating on all levels of society and living among the local population (not in a western compound), I was appalled to read your commentary of 29 October.
Women in the Kingdom are protected but not confined. I have known Saudi women in all the professions except accountancy. Trade unions are obviated because the Ministry of Labour arbitrates all labour disputes and I have heard no valid complaints from any of the Saudi people. King Abdullah is particularly loved by his subjects for reducing inflation and subsidising utilities.
You quote claims made by Mr Sandy Mitchell. Among friends during my residence in the Kingdom were many western diplomats, some of whose responsibility it was to visit their nationals in prison. Without exception, those prisoners complained about nothing more than not liking the food, even when interviewed without supervision.
Whilst it is true that capital punishment is by public beheading, it is not true that it is without adequate safeguards, because no one can be convicted of a capital crime solely on the basis of circumstantial evidence. Furthermore, it is not done in a cruel way. I have witnessed beheadings and can assure you that it is so swift, with such expert wielding of a razor-sharp blade, that the deed is accomplished in a fraction of a second.
Only the ignorant would allege lack of religious freedom in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. All foreigners are allowed to practise their religions in private. The absence of churches is simply because all Saudis are Muslims.
The repeated use of the term dictatorship is particularly unjust because every citizen has the right of audience with the king with less formality and delay than the average citizen of a western democracy has to endure to see his member of parliament. As the late King Faisal once said: "What can be more democratic than a citizen having free access to his sovereign?"
So I guess we shouldn't worry about wahabi literature in mosques...
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1. Comment #83606 by stevencarrwork on October 30, 2007 at 3:44 pm
'Whoever changes his religion, kill him'."News just in.
Muslims quote the words of Muhammad.
Later in our bulletin.
The Pope. What religion is he?
Bears. Where do they choose to defecate?
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