










Believe it or not, courtesy counts2. Comment #83964 by Zakie Chan on October 31, 2007 at 11:21 pm
3. Comment #83965 by robotaholic on October 31, 2007 at 11:25 pm
4. Comment #83966 by Quine on October 31, 2007 at 11:28 pm
5. Comment #83968 by RainDear on October 31, 2007 at 11:47 pm
Well, it's not a bad article. But, once again, it is sad to see that this religious apologetic apparently hasn't read the books he criticizes.6. Comment #83979 by Atticus_of_Amber on November 1, 2007 at 12:19 am
7. Comment #83982 by JemyM on November 1, 2007 at 12:39 am
8. Comment #83985 by BMMcArdle on November 1, 2007 at 12:47 am
"It's really quite amazing," one may say, or: "You know, I was just reading it the other day; it's as good as ever."I look forward to using this, with the right inflection, of course. Ah, the nuances of language.
9. Comment #83989 by Goldy on November 1, 2007 at 1:01 am
If each religion accepted the other sacred texts as valid as their own, then yes, maybe I'd show a touch of respect (try getting a Bible openly into Arabia). Until then, sorry, they're fair game. Quit whining - we athiests are only doing what each religion does to each other. Complain about them first, then us.10. Comment #83991 by alfonso on November 1, 2007 at 1:07 am
Sacred texts, argues Carlin Romano, deserve to be approached politely even by those who see no merit in claims about their divine origins
11. Comment #83994 by kraut on November 1, 2007 at 1:13 am
"In all but exceptional cases, today's secularists are biblically illiterate."12. Comment #84005 by stereoroid on November 1, 2007 at 1:46 am
Van der Toorn's analysis of the data leads him to conclude that "the modern concept of books is unsuited to describe the written production from the ancient Near East ... To define the Bible as a collection of books, as implied in the Greek designation biblia, is an anachronism. The Bible is a repository of tradition." It is, he says, "the result of a series of scribal interventions".1) What?
13. Comment #84006 by pholt on November 1, 2007 at 2:02 am
In all but exceptional cases, today's secularists are biblically illiterate.
14. Comment #84013 by Veronique on November 1, 2007 at 2:29 am
15. Comment #84017 by Quetzalcoatl on November 1, 2007 at 2:46 am
16. Comment #84020 by Creeping Jesus on November 1, 2007 at 2:54 am
17. Comment #84022 by bitbutter on November 1, 2007 at 3:01 am
18. Comment #84030 by irate_atheist on November 1, 2007 at 3:20 am
19. Comment #84035 by Duff on November 1, 2007 at 3:31 am
All I can say is god has certainly made a hash of his sacred texts. Some god! Some sacred texts!20. Comment #84036 by Corylus on November 1, 2007 at 3:35 am
But why should any text or even any idea be "sacred"? Genuine question here.Personal theory:
21. Comment #84037 by Nefrubyr on November 1, 2007 at 3:46 am
This strikes me as machoism pretending to be scholarly integrity. Why can't atheists see sacred texts as sacred to believers and behave respectfully when not provoked? It is simply not true, in a normal, etiquette-infused vision of life, that we think truth must be stated at every time and in every context. We lie to people in small ways every day to make interactions gentler and less tense, and to be kind to others. Why shouldn't a similar gentleness and desire to avoid hurtful comments inform atheists when they write about books that many hold sacred?
22. Comment #84038 by monoape on November 1, 2007 at 3:47 am
23. Comment #84039 by Quetzalcoatl on November 1, 2007 at 3:59 am
24. Comment #84040 by VanYoungman on November 1, 2007 at 4:06 am
25. Comment #84042 by Russell Blackford on November 1, 2007 at 4:14 am
There's a time and place for satire, mockery, and ridicule, but also a time and place for courtesy. I have no problem with that at all. I think I have enough sensitivity to tell the difference without the advice in the article.26. Comment #84044 by monoape on November 1, 2007 at 4:17 am
27. Comment #84046 by Flagellant on November 1, 2007 at 4:17 am
28. Comment #84051 by mmurray on November 1, 2007 at 4:35 am
29. Comment #84055 by Northern Bright on November 1, 2007 at 4:51 am
30. Comment #84058 by Logicel on November 1, 2007 at 4:58 am
31. Comment #84060 by mmurray on November 1, 2007 at 5:01 am
32. Comment #84061 by Bonzai on November 1, 2007 at 5:06 am
What a pretentious windbag. I hate people who write like that.33. Comment #84089 by robert s on November 1, 2007 at 6:27 am
Can I suggest 'propaganda' as a better word for 'sacred text'?34. Comment #84119 by PeterK on November 1, 2007 at 7:58 am
This article should be retitled:35. Comment #84151 by cowalker on November 1, 2007 at 9:47 am
The author mixed up several different miliues in this article, I think.36. Comment #84167 by artemisa on November 1, 2007 at 10:56 am
"And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt his existence".37. Comment #84274 by Damien White on November 1, 2007 at 3:34 pm
If the bible is the word of god, why isn't it still being written? If it was being written to record the works of god in the world, why isn't it still going? Why did it stop 2000 years ago at the death of Saul of Tarsus?38. Comment #84275 by ChrisMcL on November 1, 2007 at 3:37 pm
39. Comment #84309 by Cartomancer on November 1, 2007 at 5:39 pm
40. Comment #84316 by Russell Blackford on November 1, 2007 at 6:05 pm
All well said, Cartomancer. I tip my purely-metaphorical hat to your erudition. That said, much present-day Catholic moral teaching can be traced back through Aquinas to the uptight sexual hypocrite from Hippo, as you so aptly called Augustine. It would be salutary, methinks, if this were well-known - along with the fact that his values were so twisted and his actual arguments so ... silly.41. Comment #84398 by stereoroid on November 2, 2007 at 1:50 am
Why can't atheists see sacred texts as sacred to believers and behave respectfully when not provoked? It is simply not true, in a normal, etiquette-infused vision of life, that we think truth must be stated at every time and in every context. We lie to people in small ways every day to make interactions gentler and less tense, and to be kind to others.Or, as HL Mencken put it:
We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.
42. Comment #84413 by Nick Good on November 2, 2007 at 2:46 am
43. Comment #84598 by nothing on November 2, 2007 at 6:04 pm
In my experience, people that I have convinced to change their minds about God has not come from passionate debate or intense arguing. It has ALWAYS been from just calmly discussing the issues.
As soon as someone gets defensive (in anything), they close up and wont consider anything you have said.
What they deem as sacred then becomes inextricably part not only of their worldview, but also their self-view. A person's religion is a part of themselves, a manner in which they can define and identify themselves in relation to, and contra to, others.
Accordingly, when a person questions the theoretical basis of a particular religion they do not just question the religion. They also bring into the cold light of day the self-image of its adherents.
This questioning becomes then not merely questioning – it is an attack upon the integrity of the self. What is rudeness if not a personal affront?
Evidence for this is shown in how those who use their religion as their primary method of self-definition (as opposed to nationality or race say) are much, much, easier to offend.
I think this is large part of the thinking behind the muslim protests over something as trifling as a cartoon.
There's a time and place for satire, mockery, and ridicule, but also a time and place for courtesy. I have no problem with that at all. I think I have enough sensitivity to tell the difference without the advice in the article.
The trouble is that so often it is the religious believers who go far beyond mere discourtesy, into emotional denunciation of those who oppose their cruel ideas. Worse, they frequently attempt to impose their cruel ideas by force - with considerable success. Every day, wherever we live, we see examples of all this. Who can blame us if we lose patience?
This article should be retitled:
"Hey, At Least Be Nice To Us While Showing Us That We Are Wrong."
44. Comment #84603 by Bizarro Dawkins on November 2, 2007 at 6:56 pm
I totally disagree with this author. I firmly believe that athiests should maintain, if not escalate, their openly hyper-dogmatic hostility towards those religious boobs. It makes my job so much easier ;-)45. Comment #84609 by thirdchimpanzee on November 2, 2007 at 8:19 pm
I don't know about Australia or Europe, but the backlash against 1960's and 70's secularism was on full display in the US before 9/11. What had begun stealthily with Ronald Reagan had reached its fever pitch with the stolen election of 2000 that delivered the US Congress and Presidency to the Religious Right. The provoking of atheists and secularists began almost immediately afterwards, and was so strident that Jerry Falwell could feel sufficiently emboldened to blame the terror attacks of September 11th on the secularists, atheists and homosexuals of America.46. Comment #84610 by windweaver on November 2, 2007 at 8:31 pm
athiests should maintain, if not escalate, their openly hyper-dogmatic hostility towards those religious boobs
47. Comment #84611 by Diacanu on November 2, 2007 at 8:46 pm
48. Comment #84620 by Bizarro Dawkins on November 2, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Windreaver,49. Comment #84623 by Diacanu on November 2, 2007 at 11:30 pm
"Science" will therefore invariably be the projection of various individuals' personal beliefs,
50. Comment #84626 by Veronique on November 3, 2007 at 12:16 am
This article is reposted from a website that accepts comments.
Why not share your comment on the article there as well? CLICK HERE
1. Comment #83962 by mmurray on October 31, 2007 at 10:58 pm
We have been provoked.
Michael
Other Comments by mmurray