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Thursday, November 1, 2007 | Reason : Backlash | print version Print | Comments

Document The truth in religion

by REVEREND John Polkinghorne, Times Online

The Times Literary Supplement is less than frank about the credentials of John Polkinghorne, the reviewer. He is the REVEREND John Polkinghorne, an ordained Anglican priest, and they should have said so.

Reposted from:
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/the_tls/article2778493.ece

Substituting science for religion is like swapping a series of case-notes on senile dementia for King Lear

John Cornwell
DARWIN'S ANGEL
An angelic riposte to The God Delusion
171pp. Profile Books. £10.99
978 1 84668 048 9

John Humphrys
IN GOD WE DOUBT
Confessions of a failed atheist
323pp. Hodder and Stoughton. £18.99.
978 0 340 95126 2

Religious belief is currently under heavy fire. Books by Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and others tell us that religion is a corrupting delusion. Despite their assertions of the rationality of atheism, the style of their onslaughts has been strongly polemical and rhetorical, rather than reasonably argued. Historical evidence is selectively surveyed. Attention is focused on inquisitions and crusades, while the significance of Hitler and Stalin is downplayed. Believers in young-earth creationism are presented as if they were typical of religious people in general. The two books under review aim to make a more temperate contribution to the debate.

John Cornwell has hit on the amusing conceit of writing in the persona of Richard Dawkins's guardian angel, a being, moreover, who had earlier stood in the same relationship to Charles Darwin. The book's tone is gently ironic and its style that of modest discussion, which all makes for an enlightening read. The twenty-one short chapters each consider some claim made in Dawkins's book The God Delusion (reviewed in the TLS, January 19) and then subject it to reasoned questioning.

Cornwell begins by pointing out that Dawkins makes no serious attempt to engage with the academic discussion of religious thought and practice. His book is "as innocent of heavy scholarship as it is free from false modesty". When it asserts that Jesus' call to love our neighbour referred only to relations between Jews (despite this claim being in clear contradiction to the point of the parable of the Good Samaritan), the only support quoted for this highly questionable statement is a book written by an anaesthesiologist.

Over the centuries, theologians have wrestled with how human language can attempt to speak about the nature of God, emphatically rejecting the idea that the deity is simply an invisible object among the other objects of the world. Yet, as Cornwell points out, the God in whom Dawkins disbelieves is a kind of "Great Science Professor in the Sky", a simplistic notion that any thinking theist would be quick to reject. We are continually told that theology is no proper academic discipline, a conclusion that could only be reached by someone whose knowledge of the subject was comparable to the scientific knowledge displayed by those who write in green ink that "Einstein was wrong".

Dawkins is relentlessly rude about religious believers. They are said to be "malevolent, barking mad, mendacious, deluded" and much more. He cannot have the courtesy to take seriously those of us who are both scientists and believers. Religious education of the young is equated with child abuse. Darwin's angel pertinently asks, "Would you really trade child sexual abuse for being brought up in the religion of your parents?". The tone of contempt – one might almost say hatred – that characterizes many of the assertions in The God Delusion is one of the most disturbing aspects of the book.

In God We Doubt displays much more even-handedness. John Humphrys is respectful of religious belief and the kind of life that often, but not invariably, issues from it, while emphasizing that he is unable himself to accept such belief. His approach is that of one who remains open and questioning about these matters, as indicated by the subtitle of his book, Confessions of a failed atheist. Humphrys writes in the chirpy colloquial style one might expect from a presenter of the Today programme on Radio 4. In fact, the book originated partly from interviews he conducted with the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Chief Rabbi and Tariq Ramadan, a Muslim academic, for the radio, and from the deluge of correspondence that followed.

Humphrys takes very seriously the human experience of conscience, urging us to do some things and to refuse to do others. No doubt, evolutionary thinking offers us some partial understanding of this, with its concepts of kin altruism (protecting the family gene pool) and reciprocal altruism (I'll help you in the expectation that you will help me). Nevertheless, Humphrys rightly sees that these concepts fail to offer insight into the kind of radical altruism which, to use an example he discusses at some length, led Irena Sendlerova repeatedly to risk her life in saving 2,500 Jewish children who were trapped in the Warsaw ghetto. Humphrys sees ethical intuition as the signal of a transcendent dimension in life, which he values but does not know how to explain from an atheist point of view.

Humphrys believes that the case for God made by the Abrahamic faiths is "riddled with holes". He fails to acknowledge the subtlety and truth-seeking character of theological thought, or to recognize that the care and discrimination exercised in serious biblical studies carries us well beyond a plodding, crypto-literalist approach to the interpretation of Scripture.

Both Dawkins and Humphrys rightly engage with the challenge to theism that is represented by the existence of a world claimed to be the creation of a good and powerful God, but which nevertheless contains so much evil and suffering. This is surely the greatest difficulty holding people back from religious belief, and it is one that continually troubles religious believers. One could not claim that there is a complete and straightforward answer available to remove the perplexity. Yet there are some arguments, not discussed by either Humphrys or by Dawkins, which offer modest help as theologians struggle with the problems of theodicy. Interestingly, science is of some assistance in this regard. Its understanding of how the world works shows that natural processes are inextricably entangled with each other. They cannot be separated out, so that those with good consequences could have been retained by a competent creator who, at the same time, eliminated those with bad consequences. The integrity of creation is a kind of package deal. For example, the process of genetic mutation produced new forms of life, but it has also resulted in malignancy. You cannot have the one without the other. Humphrys asks why there are not repeated divine interventions to avert evil consequences. Such things could only happen in a magical world, and that kind of world is not this one, because its creator is not a capricious magician. Only a world with sufficient reliability for deeds to have foreseeable consequences could be one in which moral responsibility was exercised. These insights do not dispose of all the anguish and anger that we feel in the face of individual human suffering, but they suggest that it is not simply gratuitous, easily removable by a God who was a bit less callous.

Fundamental to the discussion to which both books are seeking to contribute is the relationship between faith and reason. Too often the two have been pitted against each other, as if they were in necessary contradiction. Religious faith is not a matter of the unquestioning acceptance of unmotivated belief, demanded of us by some overriding authority. Quite the contrary. Faith is a commitment to a form of motivated belief, differing only from scientific reason in the nature of the subject of that belief and the kind of motivations appropriate to it. Science achieves its success by the modesty of its ambition, only considering impersonal experience open to repetition at will. Personal experience, let alone encounter with the transpersonal reality of God, does not fit within this limited protocol. The concept of reality offered by scientism is that of a world of metastable, replicating and information-processing systems, but it has no persons in it. Darwin's angel criticizes Dawkins for a lack of trust in the power of imagination to explore reality, such as we exercise through poetry. He is said to sound "as though he would substitute a series of case-notes on senile dementia for King Lear".

No progress will be made in the debate about religious belief unless participants are prepared to recognize that the issue of truth is as important to religion as it is to science. Dawkins invokes Bertrand Russell's parable of the teapot irrationally claimed to be in unobserved orbit in the solar system. Of course there are no grounds for belief in this piece of celestial crockery, but there are grounds offered for religious belief, though admittedly different people evaluate their persuasiveness differently. Religion does not have access to absolute proof of its beliefs but, on careful analysis, nor does science. In all realms of human inquiry, the interlacing of experience and interpretation introduces a degree of precariousness into the argument. Yet this does not mean that we cannot attain beliefs sufficiently well motivated to be the basis for rational commitment. In his book on the philosophy of science, Personal Knowlege (1964), Michael Polanyi stated that he was writing in order to explain how (scientifically) he could commit himself to what he believed to be true, while knowing it might be false. That is the human epistemic condition. Recognizing this should encourage caution, but not induce intellectual paralysis. It is in this spirit that the dialogue between science and religion needs to be conducted.




John Polkinghorne was formerly Professor of Mathematical Physics at Cambridge University, and President of Queens' College. His autobiography From Physicist to Priest was published this year.

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1. Comment #84173 by JFHalsey on November 1, 2007 at 11:13 am

I see a delightful drinking game opportunity in these apologist articles. You have to take a shot every time they bring up one of the dead horses they so love to beat...

"What about Hitler, Stalin...?"
*shot*
"That's not /my/ God you're talking about..."
*shot*
"The Courtier's Response"
*shot*

...my, that's just the first few paragraphs. I believe I will be quite stone drunk b\very s0on... ^_^*

Other Comments by JFHalsey

2. Comment #84174 by cyris8400 on November 1, 2007 at 11:23 am

Perhaps gushing reviewers of Cornwell's new book would hold their tongue on the "thank God Hitler was an atheist" thing if someone told him about one of Cornwell's old books, "Hitler's Pope".

Other Comments by cyris8400

3. Comment #84180 by Quine on November 1, 2007 at 11:35 am

 avatar
Darwin's angel pertinently asks, "Would you really trade child sexual abuse for being brought up in the religion of your parents?".


What about the kids that get both at once?

EDIT: I just finished reading Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and have, thus, seen so much child abuse through her eyes that I have lost all patience with any of this.

Other Comments by Quine

4. Comment #84182 by jeepyjay on November 1, 2007 at 11:39 am

 avatarI've long been hoping that one of these religious apologists, who claim that there is no conflict between faith and reason, would give a definition of faith to justify this view. He does at least offer one:

[blockquote]Faith is a commitment to a form of motivated belief, differing only from scientific reason in the nature of the subject of that belief and the kind of motivations appropriate to it.[/blockquote]

But unfortunately It's rather to convoluted for me to follow. Can anyone translate it?

Later on this comment made me choke on my tea:

[blockquote]Religion does not have access to absolute proof of its beliefs but, on careful analysis, nor does science.[/blockquote]

Scientific proofs are a damn sight more absolute than anything I've seen from religion! This is one of the main troubles with religious believers. They want "absolute" knowledge. Just 99.999999 percent wont do for them! Yet they are still not prepared give up their favourite beliefs even if there is only 0.0000001 percent evidence it just might be true.

Other Comments by jeepyjay

5. Comment #84185 by Chris Hagan on November 1, 2007 at 11:43 am

With such woolly thinking, I'm not surprised that Christians are sometimes referred to as a flock.

Other Comments by Chris Hagan

6. Comment #84187 by Rtambree on November 1, 2007 at 11:44 am

4. Comment #84182 by jeepyjay on November 1, 2007 at 11:39 am

"Faith is a commitment to a form of motivated belief, differing only from scientific reason in the nature of the subject of that belief and the kind of motivations appropriate to it."

>But unfortunately It's rather to convoluted for me to follow. Can anyone translate it?

Here's an attempt at translation: Faith is like science, except where it's not.

Other Comments by Rtambree

7. Comment #84198 by GBile on November 1, 2007 at 12:04 pm

The integrity of creation is a kind of package deal.

.. its creator is not a capricious magician.


As Christopher Hitchens said: 'When you have REVEREND before your name, you can say anything'.

How does Reverend Polkinghorne KNOW these things?
My guess is, he just makes them up in order to present a seemingly well funded and logical story. But no way he can KNOW what the character of his 'creator' is or that creations have to be 'package deals'.

Mr. Polkinghorne, thanks for participating in the 'Great Believers opinion poll'.

Other Comments by GBile

8. Comment #84203 by Tyler Durden on November 1, 2007 at 12:13 pm

 avatar
No progress will be made in the debate about religious belief unless participants are prepared to recognize that the issue of truth is as important to religion as it is to science.
Yet every single time we expose one of their myths using science or logic, they refuse to accept it as truth.

Religion does not have access to absolute proof of its beliefs but, on careful analysis, nor does science.
What a load of nonsense!

Would the Reverend care to take a long walk off a short pier? We all know the outcome. Splat!

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

9. Comment #84206 by Corylus on November 1, 2007 at 12:18 pm

 avatarRev. Polkinghorne
Faith is a commitment to a form of motivated belief, differing only from scientific reason in the nature of the subject of that belief and the kind of motivations appropriate to it.

Jeepyjay

But unfortunately It's rather to convoluted for me to follow. Can anyone translate it?

Charitable translation:
The world makes sense when purpose is assumed - when a goal is considered. I think in this fashion - therefore (as God made me in his image!) I consider to reasonable to assume that God does also.

Uncharitable translation:
I believe it cos I want to. So there.

Other Comments by Corylus

10. Comment #84213 by Janus on November 1, 2007 at 12:31 pm

 avatarThere needs to be a series of articles written by rational atheists attacking the intellectual honesty of moderate religious believers. In other words, it's not enough to use the Harris tactic of claiming that religious moderation facilitates fundamentalism. Religious moderates are almost invariably obscurantist and dishonest thinkers, what Daniel Dennett calls "murkies", and they need to be criticized as such.

Discredit the moderates, and the fundies will fall with them, because of course Sam is right about them.

Other Comments by Janus

11. Comment #84215 by cowalker on November 1, 2007 at 12:31 pm

Non-sacred Cow! What a load of illogical nonsense.

"Yet there are some arguments, not discussed by either Humphrys or by Dawkins, which offer modest help as theologians struggle with the problems of theodicy. Interestingly, science is of some assistance in this regard. Its understanding of how the world works shows that natural processes are inextricably entangled with each other. They cannot be separated out, so that those with good consequences could have been retained by a competent creator who, at the same time, eliminated those with bad consequences. The integrity of creation is a kind of package deal. For example, the process of genetic mutation produced new forms of life, but it has also resulted in malignancy. You cannot have the one without the other. Humphrys asks why there are not repeated divine interventions to avert evil consequences. Such things could only happen in a magical world, and that kind of world is not this one, because its creator is not a capricious magician. Only a world with sufficient reliability for deeds to have foreseeable consequences could be one in which moral responsibility was exercised."

So what's the problem with predictability if God reliably intervenes to prevent a mutation from becoming a malignancy? And why couldn't God create an integrated universe where evolution took place by a different means than gene mutation? Why did God have to use evolution at all? Why couldn't he have done it the way the book of Genesis describes it? Why didn't God create beings who absorbed all the energy they needed from sunlight rather obliging all earth's creatures to devour each other, often causing much suffering to other creatures in the process?

I need the answers to all those questions before I could even consider the existence of a good God. Now a powerful evil, or amoral critter--I can't disprove it. Is that belief Ok with the reverend?

Other Comments by cowalker

12. Comment #84216 by Corky on November 1, 2007 at 12:31 pm

 avatar
No progress will be made in the debate about religious belief unless participants are prepared to recognize that the issue of truth is as important to religion as it is to science.


Truth and religion aren't even kin to each other. Religion is about beliefs and deception, science is about facts and evidence. Where is there room for "progress" between the two? Does the Rev. think that atheism and religion may reach a consensus?

Dawkins invokes Bertrand Russell's parable of the teapot irrationally claimed to be in unobserved orbit in the solar system. Of course there are no grounds for belief in this piece of celestial crockery, but there are grounds offered for religious belief, though admittedly different people evaluate their persuasiveness differently.


There is as much grounds for a belief in the celestial teapot as there is for a God, none. That's the point of the parable.

Religion does not have access to absolute proof of its beliefs but, on careful analysis, nor does science.


Religion has no evidence at all, much less proof of any sort. On the other hand science works from known facts and lets the evidence lead the theory.

In all realms of human inquiry, the interlacing of experience and interpretation introduces a degree of precariousness into the argument.


You will need something which to interpret first and religion has nothing, no evidence at all, to interpret. Inquiries into the existence of a God cannot be done, you have to just believe it at the outset for it to have any meaning at all.

Other Comments by Corky

13. Comment #84218 by TheCelestialTeapot on November 1, 2007 at 12:39 pm

Something I have come to notice after months of reading similar articles to this one is that none of the religious ever bring up Dennett's book Breaking the Spell. I think the reason that it often goes unmentioned when the religous are making claims that "Dawkins and Hitchens don't understand theology" or that "this is not my religion" is because Dennett offers the argument that the religious are claiming that the other athiest books do not. Dennett gives as complete an argument as can be given, while being somewhat deferential to belief. It's not necessary for Dawkins or Hitchens to recant and commit themselves to further study. Dennett has already driven in the final nail in the coffin. If some theologian can argue with Dennett philsophical position successfully, then I would be impressed. Or rather, if any theologian or faith-head even mentioned and confronted Dennett's major points, then I would be impressed. To my knowledge it appears that no one can step up and challenge Breaking the Spell, and it also appears that the religous are refusing to do so because they know damn well what would happen. They would lose.

Other Comments by TheCelestialTeapot

14. Comment #84220 by walk on November 1, 2007 at 12:44 pm

 avatar
Faith is a commitment to a form of motivated belief, differing only from scientific reason in the nature of the subject of that belief and the kind of motivations appropriate to it


Huh? - - Obviously, when the kind reverend mentions "the kind of motivations appropriate", he avoids stating that these motivations are:

1) Fear of the wrath of god, ie. eternal torture
2) Greed, ie. heavenly reward (thanks epeeist)

How CONVE-E-E-NIENT! - - And what wonderful motivations these are!

Other Comments by walk

15. Comment #84222 by Diacanu on November 1, 2007 at 12:45 pm

 avatarJayzus, apologetics is some major bullshit.

I don't know what's scarier to try to fathom, the kind of mind that comes up with this stuff, or the kind of mind that falls for it.

Apologist- So you see, God must exist, because atheist say he doesn't which means he's at least an idea in their heads to rebel against, and where would he get that idea without God?

Credulous sap- Yay!! You're brilliant! Have some money!!

Starving orphans- Please sir...

Credulous sap- Fuck you!! This guy singlehandedly saved God! What have you done lately!? Get a job!

Other Comments by Diacanu

16. Comment #84224 by infidel_michael on November 1, 2007 at 12:49 pm

Dawkins invokes Bertrand Russell's parable of the teapot irrationally claimed to be in unobserved orbit in the solar system. Of course there are no grounds for belief in this piece of celestial crockery, but there are grounds offered for religious belief, though admittedly different people evaluate their persuasiveness differently.

Mr. Reverend completely misunderstood this argument. This is his version:

Celestial teapot is unobserved, therefore belief in it is irrational. Therefore religion is irrational, because God is unobserved as celestial teapot is.

But this is stupid, Russel didn't say that. The teapot argument wasn't meant as a argument against existence of God, but as a response to the "you cannot disprove God" argument. The celestial teapot is a counter-example against the intuitive notion that impossibility of disproving God is something in favor of existence of God. It is not.

Other Comments by infidel_michael

17. Comment #84227 by cowalker on November 1, 2007 at 12:53 pm

It's a target-rich piece of work, isn't it?

"Cornwell begins by pointing out that Dawkins makes no serious attempt to engage with the academic discussion of religious thought and practice."

I think we should take Cornwell seriously here. No one should address faith except in dispassionate, academic terms. Children should not be emotionally engaged in faith practices. They should be taught the disciplines (reading skills, the scientific method, history, anthropology, etc.) they will need to evaluate the claims of religious belief and atheism when they reach adulthood. Then they should be given the opportunity to learn about all religions and points of view on religion and decide for themselves. I'm sure Cornwell would agree that it would be quite irresponsible to indoctrinate children with simplistic religious beliefs before they are capable of understanding academic arguments and theological subtleties.

Other Comments by cowalker

18. Comment #84233 by Quine on November 1, 2007 at 1:15 pm

 avatarcowalker:
I'm sure Cornwell would agree that it would be quite irresponsible to indoctrinate children with simplistic religious beliefs before they are capable of understanding academic arguments and theological subtleties.

:clap:

Thank you! This is exactly what was sitting in the back of my mind waiting for crystallization. They present the dogma based on unexplained theology and require acceptance excused by the "you will understand later, if you go to theology school" flag, then turn around and wrap themselves in the same flag when exposed as having no clothes.

This is the reason why it is fair game to attack the dogma they indoctrinate, no matter how they complain that their religion is really about some(unexplained)thing else.

EDIT: They seem to think they are entitled to use the same model as mathematics, in which children are indoctrinated in arithmetic but have to wait until lessons in higher mathematics provide the proof for arithmetic itself (which only the "elite" get to know). However, unlike theology, we do not see mathematicians in different cultures going around with different answers for 2+2, nor a band of ex-mathematicians going around denouncing arithmetic as bullshit (or even not meant to be taken literally).


Other Comments by Quine

19. Comment #84238 by Logicel on November 1, 2007 at 1:35 pm

 avatarCorylus wrote: Uncharitable translation:
I believe it cos I want to. So there.

_______

Here's mine: I am too fully clothed, my draperies are heavy with reason, my feathered cap weighted with truth, and my buttons gleam with sophistication. I AM TOO FULLY CLOTHED!!!! I AM, I AM, I AM TELLIN' YA I AM ROOTED IN THE HABERDASHERY OF ELEGANT, FINELY HONED TRUTH! I AM NOT NAKED!!!

Other Comments by Logicel

20. Comment #84240 by Bonzai on November 1, 2007 at 1:47 pm

Rev. Polkinghorne was a very distinguished physicist in his former life. He is no run of the mill Christian apologist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Polkinghorne

I find it mind boggling that someone whose day job involves rigorous scientific work of the highest caliber can come up with this kind of drivels.

It is not his having a theistic belief that I find strange, but the reasons or rather, non reasons that he uses to support his theistic belief and the leap from cosmological arguments for some kind of amorphous universal intelligence to the bronze age story of Christianity. You wouldn't expect a mathematical physicist to make that kind of basic logical errors, it would be like a professional writer making the most elementary spelling and grammatical mistakes and mangling up his sentences consistently in his private communications.

Psychologists may have something interesting to say about how people compartmentalize their minds.

Other Comments by Bonzai

21. Comment #84241 by junklight on November 1, 2007 at 1:48 pm


Scientific proofs are a damn sight more absolute than anything I've seen from religion! This is one of the main troubles with religious believers. They want "absolute" knowledge. Just 99.999999 percent wont do for them! Yet they are still not prepared give up their favourite beliefs even if there is only 0.0000001 percent evidence it just might be true.


C: so do you know what is making these small holes in the skirting board?
A: no. but we've deduced that its small, moves quickly and quietly
C: but you don't know
A: well not as such
C: so it could be a Rhinoceros then.
A: no
C: but you just said you don't know
A: well...yes...but..
C: so it could be a Rhinoceros
etc. etc.

Other Comments by junklight

22. Comment #84242 by infidel_michael on November 1, 2007 at 1:48 pm

REVEREND: Science achieves its success by the modesty of its ambition, only considering impersonal experience open to repetition at will. Personal experience, let alone encounter with the transpersonal reality of God, does not fit within this limited protocol.

As usual, the apologist forgets that there are also religions other than Christianity, which have also their own "personal experiences". The question is, why all these personal experiences are so different and incompatible? Well, there is a simple answer - they are delusions. Different delusions can contradict each other, but different truths cannot.
There are people who claim to have personal experiences with E.T. Should we respect them because their "experiences" are not scientifically testable?

Btw. science is also based on personal experience. Scientific method starts and ends with observation, which in fact IS personal experience of scientists. The difference is, that Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist scientists have the same experience, not mutually contradicting.

Other Comments by infidel_michael

23. Comment #84244 by Diacanu on November 1, 2007 at 1:54 pm

 avatarScientist theists and ex-atheists are the worst.

The credulous snuggle right up to the security blanket like a child, that I can understand.

The scientists/ex-atheists, they made/make a conscious choice "this is what the universe without God looks like, I refuse it, give me the security blanket".

I find that chilling.
I wouldn't make that choice to save my life.
It's like asking to be plugged into the Matrix.

Other Comments by Diacanu

24. Comment #84245 by Mr DArcy on November 1, 2007 at 2:01 pm

 avatarSo many previous posters have expressed what I was thinking as I read the article, (for which he presumably got paid plenty), that I don't know where to begin with this article full of its theological doublespeak. So let's have a go at this:
Religious faith is not a matter of the unquestioning acceptance of unmotivated belief, demanded of us by some overriding authority.


IMHO what else is faith if it is exactly what the good rev. says it is not. Faith is exactly a leap into the dark and knowing (or hoping) that you will land safely. Faith is based on the unknown, but, in the case of religion, also a good feeling about the outcome. In the immortal words of Dirty Harry; "Are you feeling lucky?" There were also some other words to the effect of "this is a Magnum 45, and could blow your head clean off". What the hell, if you have faith, go for it!

For the rest of us, be very wary!

Other Comments by Mr DArcy

25. Comment #84247 by Rtambree on November 1, 2007 at 2:18 pm

23. Comment #84244 by Diacanu on November 1, 2007 at 1:54 pm

>Scientist theists and ex-atheists are the worst.
>The credulous snuggle right up to the security blanket like a child, that I can understand.
>The scientists/ex-atheists, they made/make a conscious choice "this is what the universe without God looks like, I refuse it, give me the security blanket".

Fully agreed. It's very infantile. There's nothing logical about it. They start with the conclusion they came to from their emotions (some mental illness?), and work backwards to concoct whatever wishy-washy arguments they need to justify it to themselves (and to the public).

I wonder if fMRI or PET scans would reveal anything unusual in the way their brains are organised.

Other Comments by Rtambree

26. Comment #84253 by Lauregon on November 1, 2007 at 2:40 pm

Faith is a commitment to a form of motivated belief, differing only from scientific reason in the nature of the subject of that belief and the kind of motivations appropriate to it.
- Polkinghorne


Motivated belief: I believe because I want to believe and choose to believe.


No progress will be made in the debate about religious belief unless participants are prepared to recognize that the issue of truth is as important to religion as it is to science. - Polkinghorne


If "truth" is allowed to inhabit the realm of "it's true because I choose and want to believe it," "truth" has a definition other than the one that is meant when one swears in a court of law to tell the truth.

Other Comments by Lauregon

27. Comment #84265 by clunkclickeverytrip on November 1, 2007 at 3:18 pm

My take on why the eternal "reason vs. faith" debate feels to we atheists like we are banging our heads agaist a brick wall is that we simply are not on an even playing field.
The "faith-full" have, almost exclusively, had there minds irretrievably altered during childhood indoctrination such that they can't see "reason", in the literal sense, that we "people of reason" (i.e. atheists) can.
Thankfully, many people that have been put through childhood indoctrination have the emotional fortitude to see off that unfortunate period of their lives and eventually find "reason" as adults.
The remaining "faith-full" clearly have had a part of their brain irreversibly altered and are beyond "reason". You simply can't reason with them. They are "unreasonable". It's really annoying.
This has to be addressed in childhood education (well done again Sweden). Young minds untainted by religion are required for "reason" to prevail.

Other Comments by clunkclickeverytrip

28. Comment #84267 by Diacanu on November 1, 2007 at 3:25 pm

 avatarThey really do think make-believe is real, and the fabric of reality is up for grabs.

Other Comments by Diacanu

29. Comment #84269 by jaytee_555 on November 1, 2007 at 3:28 pm

I think Polkinghorne is plain dishonest. I'm sure he knows very well that this article is all wind and piss. If there was any real chance of proving this one way or another, I'd be willing to place a very large bet on it.

Obfuscation is the last refuge of the defeated, and it shows. He obviously feels he has muddled things enough to deserve his paycheck and make it look like he had something to say. The sheer cynicism of this type of theologian just depresses me. Give me an honest-to-goodness fundamentalist any day. At least you can respect their sincerity and pity their ignorance. This type of 'learned' dishonesty just makes me despair.

It's much easier to wake up someone who is asleep than it is to wake up someone who is pretending to be asleep.

Other Comments by jaytee_555

30. Comment #84271 by Bonzai on November 1, 2007 at 3:30 pm

Lauregon,

I think you sum it all up for John Polkinghorne.

It looks like his "God delusion" is deliberately self inflicted.

He takes a look at a world without God and decides that he doesn't like it, so he comes up with some excuses which I think even he himself would not buy in his more lucid moments to argue for Christianity. I have the feeling that he is rehashing these worn out arguments to convince himself, or as they say, to reaffirm his faith. He so desperately wishes it to be true.

According to Wikipedia, "He does not have a totally untroubled faith. Sometimes Christianity seems to him to be just too good to be true, but when this sort of doubt arises he says to himself, 'All right then, deny it' and he knows this is something he could never do."

I have a problem believing that an obviously intelligent person with a proven ability to reason logically would come up with such crude apologetics.

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31. Comment #84279 by Diacanu on November 1, 2007 at 3:53 pm

 avatar
...crude apologetics..


There's another kind?

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32. Comment #84286 by Bonzai on November 1, 2007 at 4:07 pm

At least I would expect him to come up with something more intriguing and fancy rather than same old same old.

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33. Comment #84290 by Inferno on November 1, 2007 at 4:14 pm

 avatarOn the question of evil...

You cannot have the one without the other. Humphrys asks why there are not repeated divine interventions to avert evil consequences. Such things could only happen in a magical world, and that kind of world is not this one, because its creator is not a capricious magician.


To create a world without evil, without suffering would be capricious? Why couldn't god create such a "magical world"? Was it beyond his power?

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34. Comment #84296 by Russell Blackford on November 1, 2007 at 4:34 pm

Polkinghorne simply does not understand the concepts of omnipotence and beneficence if he thinks that that nonsense can get him out of the problem of evil. Either that, or he's intellectually dishonest.

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35. Comment #84298 by Diacanu on November 1, 2007 at 4:40 pm

 avatar
To create a world without evil, without suffering would be capricious?


Ooo!!! Can we have this as a debate point thread??

I always wanted to tear this one into confetti.

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36. Comment #84315 by Theocrapcy on November 1, 2007 at 6:02 pm

 avatar"Faith is a commitment to a form of motivated belief, differing only from scientific reason in the nature of the subject of that belief and the kind of motivations appropriate to it."

Did someone say rhetoric?

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37. Comment #84321 by BAEOZ on November 1, 2007 at 6:10 pm

 avatarRussell Blackford:
Either that, or he's intellectually dishonest.

We have a winner. Choose your prize sir!

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38. Comment #84349 by BT Murtagh on November 1, 2007 at 9:24 pm

 avatarIs there a single so-called 'argument' here that could not be equally well applied to the beliefs of Hindus, Moslems, Odin-followers, Voudounists, or any of the bajillions of other religions extant or extinct?

It's all pretty feeble but it's the irritating little sweep of the cape from "some 'higher power' must exist" (an iffy enough proposition in itself to "Christianity is therefore true" that really irks me.

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39. Comment #84350 by monkey2 on November 1, 2007 at 9:27 pm

 avatar
Both Dawkins and Humphrys engage with the challenge to theism that is represented by the existence of a world...... which... contains so much evil and suffering. This is.... holding people back from religious belief, and .....[it] troubles religious believers.
One could not claim that there is a complete and straightforward answer available to remove the perplexity.

What a clear definition of atheism - A complete and straightforward answer to perplexity!

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40. Comment #84372 by Flagellant on November 1, 2007 at 11:29 pm

 avatarAnyone (e.g. Polkinghorne) who really thinks Darwin's Angel is an 'enlightening read' either hasn't read it properly - as an 'answer' to The God Delusion - or is, like Cornwell himself, intellectually dishonest. Darwin's Angel is a nasty book that frequently attributes views to Richard Dawkins, printed in The God Delusion, that are clearly those of other people. Moreover, they are views to which, it is clear to anyone other than a careless or prejudiced reader, that Richard does not subscribe.

Here is the conclusion to a review of Darwin's Angel, that I wrote with both DA and TGD to hand.
In his preface, Cornwell is explicit that he intends '…not so much to pick a fight…as to offer a few 'grace notes'…and…glosses in the interests of sharper logic, closer insight, and factual accuracy' (DA, p. 18). Well, phooey! If logic equals caprice, insight equals obfuscation and factual accuracy equals wilful misrepresentation, then he's on target... If you read Darwin's Angel, you will find a travesty of Dawkins's views and, if you accept Cornwell's misrepresentations, you will find yourself very badly informed by his perversions.
The issue is also discussed more fully in this thread: http://richarddawkins.net/article,1610,Honest-Mistakes-or-Willful-Mendacity,Richard-Dawkins started by Richard Dawkins. It also contains a penetrating review by Northern Bright (Comment #69971).



Religion – an activity for consenting adults in private.

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41. Comment #84397 by ADH on November 2, 2007 at 1:47 am

The responses on this site to the article by Polkinghorne have (as I knew they would) lent huge weight to the points he is making in it. The average "new atheist" quickly loses patience with argument and descends with mind-blowing alacrity into crude, brainless ad hominem vitriol. Dawkins and Hitchens have led the way as pioneers of this style of debate, and their little flock not so much of woolly-thinkers as of non-thinkers, cheerfully follow suit, bleating out their predictable puerile inanities. Keep it up chaps, it's just what we expect of you.

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42. Comment #84409 by Diacanu on November 2, 2007 at 2:38 am

 avatarADH-

How long are we supposed to let deliberate distortion slide?

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43. Comment #84414 by Newton30 on November 2, 2007 at 2:49 am

 avatarDid anyone else find the name "Polkinghorne" hilarious? It sounds like a pseudonym a naughty-jokes comic would use. At first, I thought this article was satire.

P.S. I just thought of a great name for myself if ever I become a porn star!

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44. Comment #84416 by ADH on November 2, 2007 at 2:59 am

Every new comment that appears here just serves to show how much truth there is in what Polkinghorne is saying. Keep digging folks! Your grave will soon be finished!

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45. Comment #84446 by Logicel on November 2, 2007 at 4:02 am

 avatarADH wrote: Keep it up chaps, it's just what we expect of you.
______

We will, thanks for noticing!

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46. Comment #84451 by Ford Prefect on November 2, 2007 at 4:11 am

ADH
Every new comment that appears here just serves to show how much truth there is in what Polkinghorne is saying.

Your right, not a lot of truth at all !

You claim ad hominem attacks by atheists and descend into some of your own. Pot,kettle , black comes to mind.

If you find the arguments against the article 'woolly' and 'puerile' could you please provide your counter argument or are you all mouth and no trousers ?

Other Comments by Ford Prefect

47. Comment #84452 by ADH on November 2, 2007 at 4:13 am

"If you find the arguments against the article 'woolly' and 'puerile' could you please provide your counter argument or are you all mouth and no trousers ?"

Once I have found an argument on this thread I'll do my best to counter it. Watch this space!

Other Comments by ADH

48. Comment #84454 by BaronOchs on November 2, 2007 at 4:27 am

 avatarADH allow me to begin:

When it asserts that Jesus' call to love our neighbour referred only to relations between Jews (despite this claim being in clear contradiction to the point of the parable of the Good Samaritan)


This claim is not in "clear contradiction" to the Samaritan story as Polkinghorne well knows! Samaritans comprised I think ten of the twelve israelite tribes? The "Real Jews" were members of the tribe of Judah, from which the name comes. (And the final tribe of course is Levi who were not confined to a single local)

So The Samaritan stroy deals with Zenophobia that is nevertheless within the israelite loop, not the more deep divide between Jews and Gentiles.

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49. Comment #84457 by BaronOchs on November 2, 2007 at 4:40 am

 avatar
Darwin's angel criticizes Dawkins for a lack of trust in the power of imagination to explore reality, such as we exercise through poetry.


For anyone who believes that I suggest they should read Unweaving the Rainbow, where Dawkins shows both a strong familiarity with and admiration for poetry, and argues that a productive relationship is possible between poetry and science. Due care being taken of course, he distinguishes between good poetic science and bad poetic science.

Statements like the above-quoted are just ad hominem, they usually boil down to nothing more than "I've studied the humanities more than you".

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50. Comment #84461 by stephenray on November 2, 2007 at 4:56 am

"[the universe's] creator is not a capricious magician"

How the hell else to describe him? What did he do to Job? To Abraham (always wondered how his son felt...) To Judas? Other than caprice, what would be the point of creating a universe that is a billion, billion, billion times larger than is necessary for the existence of humans?
...and other important questions. Answers on a postcard.

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