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Tuesday, October 3, 2006 | Reason : Religion as Child Abuse | print version Print | Comments |

Document Surviving 'Jesus Camp'

by Josh Timonen

JC1"Raise your hand if you think that God can do anything!"

Pastor Becky Fischer throws her arm into the air as an example while darting her eyes back and forth over the children in the audience. She yells in a fake high-pitched voice like a sleazy, overly animated kid's show host and waits for them to imitate her answer. In one aisle a mother lifts the arm of her disinterested son, no more than 8 years old.

That, in a nutshell, is the whole problem.

I almost walked out of Jesus Camp during several scenes; it was that hard to watch. As I listened to conversations around the theatre before the film, I was pleased to find myself in a fairly secular group. Not much of a surprise, considering we're in Hollywood. I stopped and wondered how the opening nights were in fundamentalist Christian towns such as Colorado Springs, Colorado.

Jesus Camp is a straightforward documentary, with no narrator or fancy cutting to present an opinion. The footage really does speak for itself. The film follows a group of children born into Evangelical Christian families as they prepare for and later attend the "Kid's on Fire" camp in Devil's Lake (I'm not making this up), North Dakota.

We meet a young boy in an oversized t-shirt who is lounging in front of the television at home. He's watching a "Creation Adventures" video for children, and with a commanding baritone voice it falsely instructs that the earth was formed 6,000 years ago by you-guessed-who. Thankfully, in my theatre this received a roaring round of laughter. The narrator makes a joke about how 'some people say' we came from 'slime,' and he puts on a ridiculous face as he holds up his two hands covered in a silly green goop. We later see this boy's mother looking through a 3-ring study binder at the dinner table, quizzing her son on what to say if someone tries to tell him that global warming is real(?!?). He knows the answer to this one, and with a smile tells his mother how he would reply: the temperature has only risen half a degree over some recent time period, and that this isn't a big deal. It was as if he was doing his nightly homework, with his mother at his side. I sort of missed what the boy specifically said. I had already blown a gasket and was yelling at the screen after the ridiculous global warming question the mother had asked - And from some 3-ring study binder no less!

Later we meet another camp attendee, a little girl who loves dancing. She is ashamed of when she sometimes dances "for the flesh" and has to correct herself, because everything she does must be for God.

At the church we see Pastor Becky Fischer in action with two boys (one was the boy watching the "Creation Adventures" video), recruiting them for the camp in the hallway with phrases such as "Right on, guys!" and "Totally cool!" Pastor Becky asks the boys if they plan on going to the camp, and they are. She tries out some other young trendy phrases in a high, affected voice, and gives them both a hug. Watching this I found myself growling out loud with anger like a dog after the mailman. My friend began elbowing me to keep it down.

Before camp begins, there is the blessing of the empty chairs, the electricity, and a PowerPoint presentation. It was much-needed comic relief, and my theatre laughed together for a moment.

The camp begins and it is pure madness. One of the first points of business is to condemn every child's favorite "warlock". Pastor Becky explains that "had he been in the Old Testament, Harry Potter would have been put to death!" (Thank goodness we've got that straightened out).

The children are all so eager to please, and this element of the film is the most difficult for me. If the adults decided to hand out the special Kool-Aid at this camp, the children would all unquestionably partake. With arms in the air, they are 'instructed' on how to let the spirit take over their bodies and speak in tongues. The children imitate. Many of them cry. Some fall to the ground and shake on the floor in what looks like an epileptic seizure. More cry. I wanted to cry with them, or more accurately for them. This all looked very unhealthy, I could only imagine what it was doing to them psychologically. I had the striking thought that this was all completely unforgivable. These adults, no matter their intentions, were performing horrific acts of mental child abuse.

Beck FischerThen comes the guilt, and mountains of it. "A lot of you say you're Christians, but how many of you are leading two separate lives?" Pastor Becky lays it on thick over the PA. She leads the children on through ideas of what they might be sinfully doing at school with their friends, and how they should be ashamed of themselves for it. I considered vomiting into my drink cup. She asks the children to gather around her and reach out their hands if they wish to be cleansed of these newly uncovered sins. Their cleansing source: A 20 oz. bottle of Nestlé-brand water poured over their grouped hands. Talk about product placement! There is of course more crying. There is more of me yelling at the screen, and more of my friend elbowing me in embarrassment.

They bring in a life-size cardboard cutout of President Bush in front of a big American flag, and the children are instructed to bless him and speak in tongues for him (or perhaps at him, I'm not exactly sure how this is supposed to work). Everyone performs as directed.

Suddenly, I was shocked to find a sense of relief wash over me. "Don't worry," I thought, "This is all a dream that you've had before! This is the one where the crazy Christians are with you on an airplane that is about to crash, and then Natalie Portman tells you-" No, wait, this is really happening! Can it possibly be?

LIFE Tape A 'Pro-Life' speaker visits the camp and explains how "God doesn't care about how small the baby is, it is still a person and a soul, even if it's just protoplasm..." he pauses to pan the young crowd with a cartoon-ish, bug-eyed smile before delivering his punch line: "...whatever that is!" Some in the theatre laughed, and some screamed. Things had become so unbelievable that the audience was just making whatever sounds were possible in their collective state of shock. The 'Pro-Life' man passed around a boxed set of plastic fetuses at different stages of development (do they sell these at Christian Supply stores?!). He then placed red gaffe tape with the word 'LIFE' written on it over each child's mouth in preparation for their protest in front of the US Capitol Building. I had to step back for a second. They are placing gaffe tape over a child's mouth, and the child is then persuaded to interpret this as a positive, meaningful experience. 'Let the church decide what goes in place of my personal thoughts and voice.' It's a sad metaphor for how these children are kept from thinking for themselves, and a sad irony how their 'LIFE', the only one they'll ever have, is truly what they are missing out on by accepting these dogmatic restrictions.

The sermons are rife with politics, and Pastor Becky leads the children in chilling chants such as "One nation under God!" and "Righteous Judges!" She preaches of war and the mission for their "key generation." She asks if they would lay down their lives for Jesus, and I'm sure you can imagine the children's eager response. As Pastor Becky later explains to the interviewer,

"I want to see young people who are as committed to the cause of Jesus Christ as the young people are to the cause of Islam. I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are over in Pakistan and Israel and Palestine and all those different places... Excuse me, but we have the truth!"


No need to decipher her statements, no need for clever video cuts to accentuate the parallels. She spells it out for everyone, and it's jaw droppingly crystal clear through a megaphone. Let's call it religious fundamentalism, Coke and Pepsi.

Ted HaggardThe film even makes a quick visit to Ted Haggard's New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado, just in case you were able to keep your lunch down this far into the film. In his sequel appearance to 'The Root of All Evil?' Ted is as creepy as ever, speaking directly to the camera as they attempt to film one of his mega-sermons. "If you try and use any of this I'll sue you!" he says perhaps half-jokingly, followed by an expected laugh from his flock. Ted even gets in his little sound byte about some people 'calling children animals.' He yelled this same phrase at Dawkins and his film crew in 'The Root of All Evil?' while chasing them away from the church in his pickup truck, and I wondered how frequently he replays that confrontation over in his mind.

'Jesus Camp' speaks without commentary like an ice pick to the heart and mind. In the United States we are in the presence of a dangerous and powerful Evangelical Christian movement that runs from local churches all the way to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Unless a person is steeped in such fundamentalism, I think viewers will come away from 'Jesus Camp' with an extreme sense of urgency for rational organization and action against this spreading virus. Maybe the film can shed light on the horrible indoctrination of these poor children. Some of them will escape their parent's religion, but too many will stay to repeat the memetic cycle with another generation of eager and impressionable young boys and girls.

We can always walk out of the movie theatre, but Ted Haggard, Becky Fisher, President Bush and millions of Evangelicals will be waiting for us in the real world, and how we handle their rising brand of fundamentalism will likely shape our nation and the world for generations to come.

Watch the trailer on apple.com

Visit the official 'Jesus Camp: The Movie' website

View the list of theatres showing 'Jesus Camp'

YouTube.com clips of 'Jesus Camp'



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1. Comment #584 by TheRandomDude on October 4, 2006 at 9:10 am

I call it, "Medievalization" and I think it's spreading more rapidly than ever before.

along with christian rejection of science, there is also cell phone companies that cripple phones which have extra features only in the US, and digital rights management so widespread that it's destroying technological advancement to a huge extent.

in another 10 years we'll be behind the rest of the world so vastly that if you want to study technology or use it creatively, you'll have to move to japan or korea.

2. Comment #587 by Robert on October 4, 2006 at 11:25 am

Cheer up. These dingbats are not going to wreck the scientific and technological base of the United States. They are only powerful in some of the red states and even there they won't necessarily dominate forever. Kansas has begun to return to sanity recently by voting the fundamentalists off the school boards. Governor Schwarzenegger of California is taking global warming seriously despite the deniers in the Republican party. My guess is that America will follow California rather than Texas. It always has in the past

3. Comment #589 by Jonathan on October 4, 2006 at 11:32 am

I am a Christian...

Now that that's out of the way - I do not agree with brain washing children to get them to act a certain way. A person must accept Christ on his owns terms using his own heart. Yes, most of these kids will probably grow up claiming they are Christians without really thinking about why they say they are. But, maybe one day they'll really sit down and pray about it and find a real reason.

Please understand that this way of thinking represented in the movie does not reflect the beliefs of the entire Christian population. Christianity is a wonderful thing and is simply someone acknowledging that there is something bigger than themselves, free will makes us sin, Jesus pays for those sin, and that a peaceful, selfless, loving way of life is best.

As for calling Christianity a virus, the us versus them idea of Christianity that's becoming so popular these days is dividing America and is a horrible thing. But, my Christianity, the Christianity the Bible speaks of is nothing but a good thing. For all.

And, by the way -

I DO NOT THINK GEORGE W. BUSH IS A CHRISTIAN. HE ONLY CLAIMS TO BE ONE TO WIN THE CHRISTIAN VOTE. IF HE READ ANY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT THERE WOULD BE NO WAR.

4. Comment #592 by Bob on October 4, 2006 at 11:54 am

Yes, hopefully anyone reading/watching this can make the distinction. Just as there is a clear distinction between radical/fundamentalist Muslims and the rest of the Muslim population, there is also a difference in Christians. I myself am not relgious, but have no problem with those that are. Everyone is free to believe what they want. Or should be, unlike the cases set forth here.

5. Comment #597 by Sarah on October 4, 2006 at 12:43 pm

I was a Christian, reborn and the whole tootie I’m not proud of it I’m more appalled than anything else its horrific how they brain wash and bible punch. I was also a kid in many of these types of camps for many, many years I believed this was the way till I reasoned with myself and found it all to be a terrible hoax. I do believe Jesus existed so did Mohamed, Buddha and Darwin. But education and level headedness showed me a different view I also read this on Reddit written by someone who had logic and proof:
Posted by: Canada at September 19, 2006 01:21 PM
In response to: Daniel Dennett On The Pope's Remarks

The bible was actually first written down hundreds of years after Jesus and all the disciples were dead, based on campfire tales. I think the first compilation was around 1200? Then it was edited for hundreds of years by politically motivated religious leaders for their own political and financial gain. What we have now is the result of a very long game of telephone, and you know how that usually ends up. Loads of laughs!
No more fanatic bible punching Christians for me don’t like them never will

6. Comment #599 by Jonathan on October 4, 2006 at 1:02 pm

Sarah - just copied and pasted from Wiki -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

The Old Testament canon entered into Christian use in the Greek Septuagint translation, and its list of texts. The Jewish canon itself, it has been theorized, was yet to reach definitive form, as it was still being discussed between 200 BC and AD 100.

And...

The earliest surviving complete manuscript of the entire Bible is the Codex Amiatinus, a Latin Vulgate edition produced in eighth century England at the double monastery of Wearmouth-Jarrow.

That's all I have time for now cause I'm at work. Will get on later. Hopefully.

7. Comment #600 by Trevor on October 4, 2006 at 1:19 pm

There we go being defensive as usual Christians can't leave others alone for one moment. Madning

8. Comment #601 by Sarah on October 4, 2006 at 1:26 pm

Thanks Trevor,
Jonathan says, I copied that quote from Wikipedia when I said It was someone else’s in the first place but thanks for pointing out that it does exist on wikipedia it is obvious I’m not the only one out there who agrees the bible has caused more trouble than it its worth. Good on you Jonathan go on misinterpreting things it suits you.

9. Comment #604 by Jonathan on October 4, 2006 at 1:44 pm

Sarah -

I was saying that I copied it from Wiki. It was a comment that I hoped you would read. That's why I put your name on my post. I wasn't saying "Sarah copied it." Sorry for the confusion.

Gary -

The only thing I can say about your comment is that in the New Testament, specifically the Sermon on the Mount, says that the new way of doing things is through non-violence. That's why I pointed out the New Testament and not the old.

Matthew 38 "You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.


You guys are going to get me fired.

10. Comment #608 by Sarah on October 4, 2006 at 2:12 pm

Thanks for clearing that up Jonathan.
I have difficulty with that Matthew thing you quoted looks like you will get annihilated in life if you go on those principals but each to their own. Now don’t get fired you may have to show a cheek which will it be?

11. Comment #609 by George on October 4, 2006 at 2:32 pm

Johnathan, if I was your boss and I saw this, I'd fire you on the spot - Don't you have work to do?

12. Comment #610 by Brian on October 4, 2006 at 2:33 pm

Sarah,

As with most ancient things like this, it depends on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament#Date_of_composition who you ask.

Compilation, (canonization), is not the time when it was written down, but simply put together and given the "official" church stamp of approval.

I think you are right to question how the Bible was canonized, and why. Everyone, and especially Christians, should be skeptical of things like this.

However, I think the game of telephone metaphor is misleading, because after some point we DO have surviving texts, which we can go and compare with our modern texts for accuracy. It works only to the point that we do not have surviving originals, so we can't know how close they are to our earliest surviving text.

Basically all of this can be garnered from wikipedia if someone wants to spend a few minutes reading.

13. Comment #611 by Sarah on October 4, 2006 at 2:48 pm

Thanks Brian
What I want to know is who was the Church? And why was their approval sought? Then these manuscripts when were they written and by who? It says the gospel of John but was it really he him himself who wrote this? I need proof. (There is none)
Also why don’t Buddhists and Shinto’s punt their belief system this way? I don’t hear them ranting on about what’s good for others and attacking those who don’t believe in what they believe. I’m not good enough to be a Buddhist but they have my respect.

14. Comment #612 by Trevor on October 4, 2006 at 2:52 pm

Wow Sarah, you have a point The Christians are agressive and well.. much like the Muslims who cant take a joke they seem one in the same perhaps they are.

15. Comment #620 by Nathan on October 4, 2006 at 10:27 pm

MrFitz
you call christianity a virus that is spread by contacted with an infected individual. As a deist, aren't you giving a christianity a little too much credit. If it is spread simply by contact, doesn't that give it some legitimacy. In fact it is not spread by contact. One has to be open to it, be willing to accept christ, and be willing to live the life of a christian...denying yourself yada yada. Do you people live in the same world as me.

16. Comment #630 by Tom on October 5, 2006 at 6:05 am

The people in this camp do not represent all of Christianity. What they do represent is false doctrines in action. As a Christian, from what I've read of your account I agree with you on many points about what is being done with these children. The part about the tongues particularly sickens me.

Be careful about generalizing that this is how Christian children are being brought up in America, because that is not the fact. No Christian I know would send their kids to such a camp. What I see here is zealousness without knowledge, which is a dangerous thing. It is the very thing that led Saul of Tarsus to kill Christians in the name of God.

17. Comment #640 by Terry on October 5, 2006 at 10:31 am

I'm horrified at all this, it proves one thing to me. All Christians should be painted with the same brush. How can one say they are a Christian but not like the other Christians they are intrinsically the same.
I live in South Africa where many different colours and creeds get on without question. I do not want to go near America with their radical behaviour. We used to believe cowboys came from that part of the world now we understand all forms of radical Christian trouble exist there.
I do not want to visit America with their bad attitude towards one another.
I’m Gnostic that is not Agnostic check it out.

18. Comment #653 by Terry on October 5, 2006 at 3:13 pm

To Franklin
Who is Dawkins? and why so defensive I thought when you point a finger at someone you have 4 pointing at yourself so in otherwords you must be calling yourself trash? or am I wrong? How Christian is this to criticise? you aint gona be saved mate not this way. Try another religion perhaps Islam will teach you a thing or two.

19. Comment #654 by Anonymous on October 5, 2006 at 4:45 pm

Hello Terry. Dawkins is the self appointed attacker of Christianity and all those who belive in God. He represents himself as the spokeperson for atheists. Why are you here if you've never heard of him? And Pullllease don't thump the Bible at me. I've chosen to be a Christian. What religion have you chosen? Are you an atheist? Dawkins lives to attack theism. He is a Minister of Atheism. I posted a response in defense of my beliefs. Why do atheists always have to be on the attack? Why can't they just believe there is no God and leave it at that. Is this a site of religious tolerance? No. Why do you have a problem with my defending my beliefs against his attacks? Franklin.

20. Comment #658 by Anonymous on October 5, 2006 at 5:21 pm

Steven, of course you are wrong big time and your post smacks of incredible intolerance. Explain to me why does atheism, if it is just oh so benevolent like you pretend, has to constantly attack all theist beliefs?

And why do you believe that atheism is the only right way? So it's your way (athesim) or the highway. Anyone who believes in God is nuts according to you and the High Priest of Atheism, Dawkins. Look at his picture. A true demagougue. Is this his shrine you all come to worship him?

"Religion is an archaic concept that we should have outgrown long ago"

What you would have liked to write was "OUTLAWED" instead of outgrown. The atheists in the Soviet Union tried that and now theism is more popular than ever.

Atheism is just another competing religion on the global scene. 8% of the world's population and ever decreasing. It is based on man made dogma, hedonism and narcissism. It exists solely to attack all the other religions as has nothing to offer humanity but hopelessness.

You might be heavily programmed in the atheist dogma but the world will continue to worship God in one fashion of the other.

Learn to be tolerant of others beliefs ok Steve? You say your way is the only way but I disagree. Franklin.

21. Comment #660 by Anonymous on October 5, 2006 at 5:24 pm

Yes, Steven attack the messenger. I have read Dawkin's attacks on Christians and Christianity long enough. What's the matter? Is it a sacrilege to criticize the Pope of Atheism? I guess there is no "free thinking allowed here on this site????

22. Comment #661 by Anonymous on October 5, 2006 at 5:32 pm

Of course this Church of Atheism site is going to broadbrush all Christians in a negative light. They are atheists here and hate all believers in God. If you want truth about any belief in God don't come to this website. This is nothing but atheist propaganda. They have no respect for the viewers figuring that if they repeat the lies about beliefs and believers in God enough times someone is bound to believe them. This website is dedicated to slandering all believers in God and proselytizing their their atheist beliefs. This is Atheist Conversion 101!

23. Comment #664 by Anonymous on October 5, 2006 at 6:28 pm

That's a good description of the Dawkins cloned atheists...... Nazis!

24. Comment #665 by Anonymous on October 5, 2006 at 6:36 pm

. Comment #612 by Trevor on October 4, 2006 at 2:52 pm

Wow Sarah, you have a point The Christians are agressive and well.. much like the Muslims who cant take a joke they seem one in the same perhaps they are.

SAME WITH ATHEISTS. THEY CAN NOT TAKE CRITICISM OR QUESTIONING. SHOWS HOW DEEP THEIR PROGTRAMMING IS.

25. Comment #686 by Anonymous on October 6, 2006 at 8:19 am

Steven wrote "because I feel these beliefs can cause people to do terrible things."

Oh uh let's see here. History shows us that atheism and atrheists have cuased the slaughter of billions of people on this planet. Lenin - atheist. Stalin - atheist. Pol Pot - atheist. Milosevic - atheist. Mao Tse Tung - atheist. Hoi Chi Minh - atheist. Fidel Castro - Atheist. Kim Jong Il - atheist.

That is such a lie you are telling. you can not sweep the billions of people slaughtered like cattle by atheists under the rug. Atheism is poison for humanity.

You can not preach about your sacred atheism without slamming other people's beliefs. Yet I can tell you about my beliefs without slamming yours. There is something wrong with this picture.

Atheism is a religion. You believe in science. You have beliefs. And Dawkins is your God. You have a soul. Scrape that atheist crud off of it and use it to get in touch with God. There is your evidence. You have to find it just like I did. God is within you. Your soul connects you to God!

26. Comment #699 by Anonymous on October 6, 2006 at 10:50 am

Just some more atheist propaganda. You atheists take the truth and twist it into a lie. Duh?!? Who is responsible for the flood? The people and their wickedness in their hearts. God (since then) is never responsible for any violent death. Duh?!? Ever hear of free will. God does not interfere if you want to go out and kill someone. You will pay for your crime one way or another. What goes around comes around. God can intervene with intercessory prayer. And does. You atheist Dawkins arse lickers are just so dumb, clueless and hateful. Know what you are talking about if you want to criticize Christianity. You just sound so ignorant with the things you write.


Duh!?! Brian I came to this site which is nothing more that a hate Christians site. You started the hate. I respond to it.

Atheists are anything but rational people. The most famous atheists are mass murderers. Do you call that rational?

27. Comment #748 by Jay on October 6, 2006 at 4:14 pm

I reckon in the great scheme of things religion has killed a million times more than atheism. Not that I can recall a mass murderer who has killed specifically in the name of atheism, but you get my point (I hope).

Remember, the biggest murderer (human) of the modern world, Hitler, was a Christian, and he did have a lot of help from Rome.....after all, they had a common enemy did they not?

As for mass-killers who were atheists, well it wasn't because they were atheists that they did what they did, it was incidental. But millions HAVE died in the name of God - specifically.

Dawkins et al stand for reason and rationalism against religion. Are you claiming that Mao, Stalin, Pot et al were reasonable and rational? No. Religion or not you'll still get the mentally insane. And any such argument about genocide and atheism is very risky ground for you religious folk. Why? Simple: because the modern world looks on the aforementioned as bad people, not good. Communist atheists killed millions? Terrible, godless people! Catholics, Jews and Muslims killed millions? Er, um, let's move on.....but what about Stalin, Mao..... etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseum.

Jay, UK
"If you want your child to grow up to be an atheist, send them to a convent school."

28. Comment #749 by Anonymous on October 6, 2006 at 4:25 pm

Atheist cliche after cliche after cliche. All of those responses are so canned. Part of your programming. Won't spend the time right now in my response.

But all of those dictators were atheists. All of them.

“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism”

Vladimir Lenin

Uh, How about the invasions of Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland, 1940? C'mon crack open a history book. How about Tibet? How about South Vietnam? South Korea? Laos? India? The list goes on and on. Atheists have nothing to be proud of. Nothing. Lots of shame and blame goes your way. Perversion of the truth and trying to revise history makes you look like a fool and a liar.

Do innocent people die or get killed. Of course they do. God does not micro manage everything. God does not want us to be robots. Free will. This world is not menat to be perfect. It is for the purification of souls. But by us following the Holy Spirit's guidance a lot of tragedy can be avoided. Intercessory prayer does save lives.

Teaching the unproven speculation that man and simians share a common ancestor as fact is teaching the religion, atheism, in our public schools.

Just tell the world what atheism has to offer without attacking other religions and you might seem a little bit more tolerant.

By the way which denomination of atheism do you belong to?

29. Comment #750 by Jay on October 6, 2006 at 4:26 pm

"He's watching a "Creation Adventures" video for children, and with a commanding baritone voice it falsely instructs that the earth was formed 6,000 years ago by you-guessed-who. Thankfully, in my theatre this received a roaring round of laughter. The narrator makes a joke about how ‘some people say’ we came from ‘slime,’ and he puts on a ridiculous face as he holds up his two hands covered in a silly green goop."

Well, according to the bible we come from the dirt on the ground: you know, the dirty brown crud you scrape off the bottom of your shoe.

Does not the bible state that god blew into the dust in his hand and mankind was created?

30. Comment #756 by Anonymous on October 6, 2006 at 5:36 pm

Your totally clueless. If God came down physically and spoke to everyone in a loud voice then guess what? Everyone would believe in God. You too. He'd be your sugardaddy!

But God's existense transpires many dimensions. This is the lowest level and very imperfect. This is where pure spirit matter is born into the physical, knows God, then learns sin, then makes a choice. Between God or sin. Salvation or hedonism. We choose the type of world we our next world will be.

The only way to seek God is within ourselves. To talk to God. Our souls are the connection to God. Our soul is the only thing we take into this physical world and the only thing that we take out of it. We're just passing through.Who we really are is this spirit. Our bodies are just outside garment clothing the spirit in this world. Physical world, physical body. Logical.

As we pass we either chose to believe in God or chose to believe nothing but what we see in the physical world. It's easier to live a selfish hedonistic life if you refuse to believe in God. Refuse to believe that there are universal laws that govern our life. If we transgress against another we will be transgressed upom. Simple laws but very, very real. That's why you don't see too many old evil people. Except Fidel Castro but his day is coming.

This is not chaos. There is logic and reason behind this physical world it is there. It is God.

God does allow bad things to happen. But God will also intercede at times too. We will never have a true understanding of that in this world. In the next world we will know more and more about God. We will continually spirtually progress.

But hey if you are not interested in God then fine. I am. I want to progress spiritually in this life as far as I can. I want to understand God. I want to be closer to God more than I want to be closer to things in this material world. I could have not a nickel to my name but if I have God's love then I will be the richest man in the world. Richer that the world's richest rich.

That is 92% of the world's choice. Yet you demand that everyone believe that you know the only truth. That there is no God. You makes us laugh. We respect your right to have that belief. But we will not sit idly by while you attack our beliefs. You will get a response. If you are going to preach atheism at me then I am going to preach Christianity to you. The second you stop preaching to me I will stop preaching to you. Go on and be an atheist. But shut up with the talking trash about my beliefs.

Tolerance that's what you need to learn. And respect for others beliefs. There are fanatics in all beliefs. Dawkins is a fanatic in the atheist belief. Christians deal with their own fanatics and deal with them. Deal with your own.

What are you doing to bring down the Atheist dictator (he certainly does not believe in God) Kim Jong Il of South Korea? Fidel Castro? Have you toured the killing fields of Cambodia? Atheist mass murder of believers in God. What you doing to help free Tibet. Return the Dalai Lama?

Leaders of nations who do not know God are positively the worst mass murderers ever on this planet. No God, life has no value. People are cattle.

Tolerance. Or find God. God will teach you tolerance and how to love your fellow humans as much as you love yourself and love God.

God is not going to be our sugardaddy in this life. No,uh,uh. God wants you to come to him. Those are the purer souls. God is perfect. We are imperfect. But we can not be near God unless we become less imperfect. This unseen Creator in this world. But your soul is your connection to God's presence in this world. And God is here. God is everywhere. Whether you choose to believe in God, God is here.

If this was a perfect world then there would be no trial for God to see who the purer souls are. God wants to be nearer those who seek God. To be loved by us. With real love. Sugardaddies get no real love. It is not how many times you pray or got to church. But who you are, how perfect we can become. We will always be imperfect but we want to know God in this life to receive God's blessing and protection and LOVE!

It is all so simple, logical and of sound reason if you believe. But if you don't believe it may seem like chaos. It all has a purpose.

Find tolerance and respect for all beliefs. Or Find God. God will teach you tolerance and respect. I've found God!

31. Comment #757 by Anonymous on October 6, 2006 at 5:37 pm

Your totally clueless. If God came down physically and spoke to everyone in a loud voice then guess what? Everyone would believe in God. You too. He'd be your sugardaddy!

But God's existense transpires many dimensions. This is the lowest level and very imperfect. This is where pure spirit matter is born into the physical, knows God, then learns sin, then makes a choice. Between God or sin. Salvation or hedonism. We choose the type of world we our next world will be.

The only way to seek God is within ourselves. To talk to God. Our souls are the connection to God. Our soul is the only thing we take into this physical world and the only thing that we take out of it. We're just passing through.Who we really are is this spirit. Our bodies are just outside garment clothing the spirit in this world. Physical world, physical body. Logical.

As we pass we either chose to believe in God or chose to believe nothing but what we see in the physical world. It's easier to live a selfish hedonistic life if you refuse to believe in God. Refuse to believe that there are universal laws that govern our life. If we transgress against another we will be transgressed upom. Simple laws but very, very real. That's why you don't see too many old evil people. Except Fidel Castro but his day is coming.

This is not chaos. There is logic and reason behind this physical world it is there. It is God.

God does allow bad things to happen. But God will also intercede at times too. We will never have a true understanding of that in this world. In the next world we will know more and more about God. We will continually spirtually progress.

But hey if you are not interested in God then fine. I am. I want to progress spiritually in this life as far as I can. I want to understand God. I want to be closer to God more than I want to be closer to things in this material world. I could have not a nickel to my name but if I have God's love then I will be the richest man in the world. Richer that the world's richest rich.

That is 92% of the world's choice. Yet you demand that everyone believe that you know the only truth. That there is no God. You makes us laugh. We respect your right to have that belief. But we will not sit idly by while you attack our beliefs. You will get a response. If you are going to preach atheism at me then I am going to preach Christianity to you. The second you stop preaching to me I will stop preaching to you. Go on and be an atheist. But shut up with the talking trash about my beliefs.

Tolerance that's what you need to learn. And respect for others beliefs. There are fanatics in all beliefs. Dawkins is a fanatic in the atheist belief. Christians deal with their own fanatics and deal with them. Deal with your own.

What are you doing to bring down the Atheist dictator (he certainly does not believe in God) Kim Jong Il of South Korea? Fidel Castro? Have you toured the killing fields of Cambodia? Atheist mass murder of believers in God. What you doing to help free Tibet. Return the Dalai Lama?

Leaders of nations who do not know God are positively the worst mass murderers ever on this planet. No God, life has no value. People are cattle.

Tolerance. Or find God. God will teach you tolerance and how to love your fellow humans as much as you love yourself and love God.

God is not going to be our sugardaddy in this life. No,uh,uh. God wants you to come to him. Those are the purer souls. God is perfect. We are imperfect. But we can not be near God unless we become less imperfect. This unseen Creator in this world. But your soul is your connection to God's presence in this world. And God is here. God is everywhere. Whether you choose to believe in God, God is here.

If this was a perfect world then there would be no trial for God to see who the purer souls are. God wants to be nearer those who seek God. To be loved by us. With real love. Sugardaddies get no real love. It is not how many times you pray or got to church. But who you are, how perfect we can become. We will always be imperfect but we want to know God in this life to receive God's blessing and protection and LOVE!

It is all so simple, logical and of sound reason if you believe. But if you don't believe it may seem like chaos. It all has a purpose.

Find tolerance and respect for all beliefs. Or Find God. God will teach you tolerance and respect. I've found God!

32. Comment #760 by Anonymous on October 6, 2006 at 6:09 pm

Go ahead and believe what you want to believe. Just shut up about what I believe. Stop your attack. If you had a real belief in something besides yourself then we would already know this. Learn respect. Or you are nothing but part of the problem instead of being part of the solution. This will always be a dog eat dog world to you with that level of understanding. .

You just keep spewing out those worn out atheist cliches. Nothing original. You just don't understand. Understand or learn tolerance and respect.Stop the attack.

33. Comment #807 by Simmons on October 7, 2006 at 4:14 am

Damn, people! No one is saying that all Christians are fundamentalist or that all Christians would send their children to this camp. This article only contains the authors experience of a film that documents a single Christian summer camp. Thats all. It makes no assumptions on what Christian "moderates" would do to their children.

Crikey, I dont even know why people would comment if they dont plan on saying something remotely constructive.

34. Comment #1035 by Jeff on October 9, 2006 at 2:40 am

I have no problem with Jesus Camp. I think the person who reviewed it is the one who is wrong. These are just some people who want to do God's will. And those who are sinners and lukewarm Christians, will not understand it. And yet, you're trying to tell me what to believe? Are you kidding me? No, if you were a true Christian, you wouldn't be sharing this crap. You need Jesus, and likewise everyone else in here. We will win in the end. And you will lose. So, get on God's side and not the devil's side. Satan is the one who's spewing out all this crap.

35. Comment #1042 by Jason on October 9, 2006 at 4:06 am

I feel I must address the inaccuracies (some of them anyway) above. Firstly and most glaringly to suggest that atheism is ever decreasing is utter non-sense. Fundamentalism is strengthing in America and in the Islamic world but elsewhere religion is on the decline. I live in Ireland that untill 20 years ago was still locked in the grip of the Catholic Chruch,fortunately my generation (i'm 26) has completely abandoned religion with Mass attendance down massively and the number of priests and nuns being ordained also reduced to almost nothing. It is no coincidence that at the same time our economy has transformed, the role of women has changed and the country is generally far less depressed than it once was. Across Europe the picture is much the same.
As for atheism being portrayed as another religion as some posters above have tried to do, could they possibly justify their claims in some way. I base my atheism on science and rationalitly with no faith involved whatsoever.

36. Comment #1131 by Jason on October 10, 2006 at 1:38 am

I agree with the last post, to say that the Dictators of history (and present) are athiests and therefore they murder in the name of aetheism is complete stupidity. They do not murder in the name of atheism unlike the Christian right who think W is doing Gods work or those religious maniacs who flew the planes into New York, please the communist/atheist argument belongs in the 1950s where most people left that kind of thinking.

37. Comment #1282 by Sarah on October 11, 2006 at 6:10 am

I spent half hour after watching the UTube clip ranting- And I hadn't even seen the whole film!

Why aren't these people being pulled up on child abuse? If anyone else gaffe-taped shut a child's mouth, they'd be arrested; at least they would over here in the UK (I b****y well hope!).

The clip of the little girl 'speaking in tongues'... I just wanted to cry. And I absolutely love Pastor Freaky's justification for child abuse, efectively that her enemies do it so why shouldn't she?

I could go on, I'm sure, but what's the point? Everyone on here seems to be equally disgusted so I'm sure you'll all know everthing I feel like saying and a few things that I can't.

38. Comment #3113 by goddogit on October 25, 2006 at 5:06 pm

An interesting definition of what Christianity is by self-declared Christians can be read above. I believe I am summerizing it correctly as: Christianity cannot be taught, directly in a "Jesus Camp" or through socialization, but only received through personal revelation.

To be cynical, this sounds to me like: Christianity (Religion) is a disease that is largely non-infectious, despite being more widespread and damaging than dental caries, unless one helps incubate the viral agent.

It's just more nice people, whom I would do nothing extra to dissuade from their preferred brand of foolishness, excusing their stupid, drunk relatives at some BBQ.

39. Comment #3213 by Anonymous on October 26, 2006 at 1:27 pm

40. Comment #3218 by ThePacifier on October 26, 2006 at 2:14 pm

You fear that which you don't believe in....
Comment #3212 by Sandy on October 26, 2006 at 1:26 pm

_________________________________

You hit the “nail on the head” sandy. These “brighty bright moonybats” are just a little scaredy……

What’s wrong brighty bright scaredy moonybats? What the fucking hell you so scaredy about……… is it the “pasta” monster under your bed? Or is it Jesus that has you quivering?

Really, ….. seriously; I’m fascinated with the perceived “battle” between atheism and Christianity. I enjoy reading Dawkins simply because his “style” makes me laugh.

But now on to the monumentally important issue that is; the vast majority of humans alive today are completely and totally delusional. I concur with this observation however, I do question the validity of the assumption that a “belief” in “God” is at the root of this delusional epidemic.

So, as I ponder this mass delusion, one nagging question keeps popping into my mind……Am I one of the delusional? I mean, according to the moonybats….if I consider “God” to be real, I’m delusional and deranged! But, according to Jimmy Baker, if I don’t consider “God” to be real well……then I’m going to hell. Which may not be all that bad, depending on who’s already there…….if there is a there…..I mean "hot" (no pun intended) female porn stars would probably go to hell….right?

So I’m a little torn, either I’m going to hell or I’m a delusional nut case.

Alright “pasta” monster non-believers……. Could one of you “brighty” types help me out here?

41. Comment #3223 by The Spaghetti Monster on October 26, 2006 at 3:06 pm

I am real…….as evident by the words you are currently reading.

Don’t let anyone tell you differently……..

By the way; is this “ThePacifier” guy a friggen genius or what?

42. Comment #3225 by goddogit on October 26, 2006 at 3:32 pm

Xians ("anonymous? Give me a break!) and Xians or simple trolls ("Steven Colbert" Couldn't you be more obvious?) wearing cartoon-rationalist masks, evidently for Halloween, may be viewed - by those of you who are none too fastidious in their entertainment - in the appallingly stupid exchanges before this.

43. Comment #3435 by goddogit on October 28, 2006 at 4:33 pm

Doug, your recipe for defining "madness" seems, well, not only entirely self-serving but entirely dishonest. If someone is raised in the faith of North Korean nationalism, would not you consider their beliefs a bit unreal, even "mad". If you go back to, say, ANY "Christian" war and listened to the "beliefs" of the majority as they gloried in slaughtering their "deviant" Christian opponents, wouldn't they be quite clearly "mad"? If you talked to Christian in Europe even a hundred years ago, and they fervently "believed" that Jews used the blood of Christians to make their bread, wouldn't you consider this a "madness" that needed the cure of rational debate, and even the need for government intervension?

Of course, Prof. Dawkins has answered your excuse and plea for exemption far more eloquently (though I really doubt you have the honesty and courage to listen to his lectures and arguments; many available at this site).
Your "religious majorities" own nearly all of their supposedly "Christian" virtues to the work of rationalists, or else to religious figures who grasped the arguments of the Enlightenment but saw the advantages of using their faith as a tool to implement the goals shared by each view.

As for your statements about the Bible, you deserve no respect whatsoever - without extremely selective editing and re-writing, the OT is EXACTLY as bad as Dawkins (among all others who read it for what it is) claims, while the NT is a soup arguing as much for atheism as for faith, to those who have noticed that "God the Father" does jack-all from the beginning to the end of Jesus's life.

44. Comment #3436 by Fedler on October 28, 2006 at 4:47 pm

Reply on Comment #661 by Anonymous on October 5, 2006 at 5:32 pm

Careful. We're willing to have a discussion, but this site is for expression of free ideas. Mostly we try to interact rationally, but just like believers, we get passionate about our own identity. Atheists have relatively few sites with which they're ideas are accepted rationally. Believers in a god have the rest of the world in which to push their philosophy onto other people, where religion is accepted as "a given". Please recognize your own place in the hierarchy before you attempt to subjugate us into ours.

45. Comment #4263 by William on November 3, 2006 at 6:18 am

An interesting and truly frightening article.

>>"I want to see young people who are as committed to the cause of Jesus Christ as the young people are to the cause of Islam. I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are over in Pakistan and Israel and Palestine and all those different places... Excuse me, but we have the truth!"<<

As I write this I am listening to the BBC World Service. American GI's wives are on the radio, talking about how ANRGY - how VERY ANGRY they are that their loving husbands have been deployed to Iraq.

Where is THAT LOUD MOUTH DRAGUTIN NOW, THEN? Are you here Dragutin Matak? Have you got anything to say about this VILE Diatribe. Dragutin accused me of not-behaving correctly, because I am offended by Theists and their irrational behaviour. What has that loudmouth Dragutin got to say on this matter? What about 9/11? 7/11? 7/7? The Crusades? The Spanish Inquisition? The Divine Rights of Kings?

'Creation Adventure' videos?

What is this utter, utter crap? This camp is clearly indoctrination of innocent minds. Onward Christian soldiers, eh? I hope that pompous Professor Matak answers this piece. I'd love to see his warped view on this clear buffoonery.

Kind Regards, Willia.

46. Comment #4290 by William on November 3, 2006 at 8:17 am

Laura M Said:

>>To Si- (#30),

You wrote: "...our relationship with America is unhealthy, we are acting above our station."
What precisely does this phrase mean, in the context of Britain's relationship with the U.S.?
Just curious(I'm American).<<

Hi Laura! you and I have spoken before. Si does not speak for all us Brits. Just because the American and UK governments made the awful mistake of going to war in Iraq, DOESN'T for one instance mean we shouldn't treasure our alliance with America. I'd side with America, if push came to shove.

Bush and Blair would get a lot more respect if they came out and ADMITTED They were wrong. That they had really messed up big time and that they were now going to try and do what they could to put it right. Britain lost a lot of respect in the Moderate part of the Middle East, deservedly so. I would not be the proper authority to say how this could be undone, though.

I do worry that the media play a big part, sometimes, in making divisions where none should exist. The BBC are awful in their Bias. If Brits are unhappy with America, then it is not directed at Americans, but more likely American foreign policy. I feel it is important to state the difference - I'm sure Si would agree with this point. We have NO PROBLEM With Americans!

There is NOTHING unhealthy, in my opinion, with our relationship to America. This view is held by the anti-American elite of the U.K. We have a shared history, speak the same language because of that history; we have fought side-by-side in many wars; we share surveillance intelligence amongst groups such as the CIA and MI5; our countries are both stronger for it. Make no doubt.

The Iraq issue is enormous. I'd never understimate that. I feel for all the lives lost. But to take that a step further and say we should 'dispense' with American alliance is taking the assumption too far.

America donated 4 of the 5 billion gallons of oil during WW2. Did you know that? America was working in secret with the British BEFORE Pearl Harbour, even though a war involving America was not wanted. America helped us against FRENCH originated weaponry during the Falklands War. America donates a lot of money around the world. I'm not saying America is wonderful example of democracy, but America does, I feel, get a lot of undeserved criticism at times.

I don't like the arguments made in favour of cutting diplomatic ties with America. I think both countries would suffer as a result. Usually, Britain is a voice of reason (Yeah, Blair ain't been) to America. I think our countries benefit from our alliance.

BUT IRAQ WAS A MISTAKE! No doubt about it! Does anybody REALLY feel safer now?

47. Comment #4291 by Russ on November 3, 2006 at 8:28 am

Good idea by Mark Robinson. Post 123. Comment #4268.
Mark said,
-->
Time to stand up and be counted folks

I have starting/started a campaign in my community. A community project for a True Mind.We are going to knock on doors find the people that want to unite. Create book clubs, Science clubs for all ages and many other events and social.
We can sit in forums unitl the cows come home.

Not out to convert the believers but to create a program for those whom do not believe. We have a right in our community and we want it put to use.
-->

Mark, Another idea that at least gets out the message is letters to the editor. The following is a recent example I had printed.

>>>
In “Hindsight culture questions everything, including God’s will,” Paul Wakeman is upset about people questioning God’s wisdom. Even so, all people should doubt what wisdom this God ever revealed, especially in contrast to what it never revealed.
The Biblical God was pieced together by people with limited understanding of humanity and the natural world. That is why God never revealed knowledge that was useful to us. God’s creators didn’t know it; so, created God couldn’t show it.
Mankind might be better off if God’s creators had revealed things like slavery is wrong - always; germs, not demons, cause disease; the earth is not the center of the universe; here’s how to make antibiotics; witches are not real. Unfortunately, this fabricated God could not reveal anything his creators did not know, so God’s “wisdom” is simply his creator’s versions of various myths and legends, and not of much benefit to modern society.
>>>

This might vary from your exact intentions but putting the idea before the public that there are alternatives to the perspectives of religion can give strength to those with doubts. I regularly receive phone calls and letters asking for more information on atheism, skepticism, humanism, reason, and rationality. Religions have controlled the public discourse for most of written history which has permitted untold human suffering. Change is long overdue, and you are absolutely right, Mark, we can't simply talk, we must do.

48. Comment #4329 by Russ on November 3, 2006 at 12:10 pm

Check out this week's essay "Religion and Science" at

www.harrytcook.com

Harry is an atheist Christian minister. That's right!

49. Comment #4424 by Me on November 3, 2006 at 8:22 pm

Anonymous, atheists "can't keep their mouths shut" because we are angry of being ignored and the "least trusted minority". You say that the population of atheists is 8% and decreasing well, you are way wrong. Infact, according to polls, atheism is the fastast growing religious group of all! We grew from about 8% in 2002, to 14% in 2006!

50. Comment #4624 by Roy on November 4, 2006 at 10:48 pm

"Ted ( Haggard) is as creepy as ever",

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15536263/

Probably he does not think there is a hell to burn in after all!
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