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Thursday, November 8, 2007 | Reason : Children and Religion | print version Print | Comments

Document Losing faith in Quebec

by Graeme Hamilton, National Post

Thanks to Catalin Sandu for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=08876ab3-a800-4995-b9d0-7eea7a703938&k=60734

Even private schools in La belle province must adopt one-size-fits-all religious classes

MONTREAL -Since the founding of Quebec, its schools have given a central place to Christian instruction. Even today, parents in public schools choose whether they want their children to take a course in Catholic, Protestant or non-religious moral education. But that is about to change.

Beginning next September, Jesus and Moses will have to make room for Muhammad, Buddha and Glooscap as the provincial Education Department replaces its denominational courses with a one-size-fits-all class in Ethics and Religious Culture.

Covering Christianity, Judaism, aboriginal spirituality, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism, the new course will be mandatory even in private religious schools, most of which receive partial government funding.

The reform has been sold as an effort to bring the education system in step with an increasingly secular Quebec, which broke from the Catholic Church in the Quiet Revolution of the 1960s.

But religious groups are worried the new program will undermine parents' efforts to instill the values of their chosen religion in their children.

"This is radical. Since the foundation of Quebec by the French, up until September of next year, we've had religion taught in schools," said Spencer Boudreau, an associate dean at McGill University's Faculty of Education. "It was inconceivable in the Catholic thinking that you could be educated and not talk about religion."

The new course is the final step in a secularization of Quebec schooling that began with a 1997 constitutional amendment replacing the province's denominational school boards with linguistic ones. A 2005 law changed Quebec's Education Act and its Charter of Rights to eliminate parents' right to choose a course in Catholic, Protestant or moral instruction, and the changes come into force at the end of the current school year.

The reform has been a hot topic during province-wide hearings underway to examine how Quebec should accommodate religious and cultural minorities. Catholic parents have complained that the new course, designed to increase understanding between different cultural groups, is depriving them of their right to decide which values their children will be taught.

Quebec City Archbishop Marc Cardinal Ouellet, appearing this week before the travelling commission, accused the Education Department of imposing "a dictatorship of relativism."
Private Catholic schools will have to marginalize their own religious instruction to make room for the state-mandated course, he said. "No European nation has ever taken such a radical direction, upending the convictions and religious freedom of citizens."

At Montreal 's Loyola High School, principal Paul Donovan is not sure how the new course will be incorporated into the private Jesuit school's teaching. Students at Loyola already learn about world religions, and Mr. Donovan hopes the Education Department will agree that the material covered in the new course is already part of the Loyola curriculum. If not, the school intends to continue its Catholic instruction, but it will be in addition to the provincial curriculum.

Mr. Donovan's biggest concern with the new course is not the inclusion of other religions but its "squishy" approach to ethics. "We teach kids that there is some kind of morality that we need to search for," he said.

"I would have a problem teaching what is effectively a much more relativistic moral code than what we do with our kids. In an effort to try to be pluralistic, it essentially won't take a stand."

For example, the existing Catholic education course approved by the government strives to help children "take an enlightened position on situations involving a moral issue." The new course, conscious of avoiding conflict, merely aims to have students "reflect on ethical questions."

Barry Levy, a professor of religion at McGill University specializing in Jewish studies, says the new course could be seen as an attempt to cultivate a common Quebec culture.

"At the moment, I think Quebec society is challenging the value of religion altogether," he said. "This has to do with its recently developed secular postures, it has to do with the rejection of the Catholic Church, it has to do with fear of ethnic groups, many of whom are coming from outside the country and bringing religious practices that seem inappropriate to some Quebecers."

While he supports the program's goal of increasing understanding between communities, he said the government's approach is heavy-handed. Orthodox Jewish schools will have a hard time accepting that they need to teach the gamut of world religions, he said.

"Once you start teaching little children that Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanza and occasionally Ramadan all come together and are all of equal value and authority -- either that's going to be the message or the message is going to be [that] none of these things really matter -- people who are committed to one of these celebrations are going to find it very difficult to teach their children."

And the list of celebrations does not end at Kwanza. The curriculum gives a privileged place to Quebec's religious heritage, which it defines as including Catholicism and Protestantism foremost, followed by Judaism and aboriginal spirituality. But it includes other religions and even non-religious expressions that "define the sense and value of the human experience." So Mother's Day, Father's Day and birthdays make it on the list of holidays that elementary-school teachers are encouraged to discuss with their students.

Critics wonder how teachers will be able to knowledgeably cover the new curriculum's broad expanse. "The big challenge in my mind is going to be the qualifications of the teachers to do a good job with this," Mr. Boudreau said.

"Because a lot of them don't even know their own tradition very well. So how do you delicately present someone else's?"

His concern was echoed by Mr. Levy, who says he considers it a success if his university students have mastered a single religion when they graduate.

"What's going to happen in these contexts is it's going to be totally shallow, totally meaningless. The only message is going to be [that] they are all of equal value. And the people who are genuinely committed can't buy that argument."

Even groups pushing for secularism have problems with the reform. Henri Laberge, president of the Mouvement laique quebecois, called the elimination of denominational teaching "great progress" but questioned how well the new course will work. He said that instead of starting in Grade One, the new course should wait until high school, when students have a more developed critical sense. "We think it is up to each religion to give instruction to its supporters," he said. "It's not up to the public schools to do that."

Comments 1 - 30 of 30 |

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1. Comment #86253 by BAEOZ on November 8, 2007 at 8:53 pm

 avatar
"Once you start teaching little children that Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanza and occasionally Ramadan all come together and are all of equal value and authority -- either that's going to be the message or the message is going to be [that] none of these things really matter -- people who are committed to one of these celebrations are going to find it very difficult to teach their children."

I hope so. Your fairy's birthday is no more important than any other fairy's birthday.

Other Comments by BAEOZ

2. Comment #86261 by John Done on November 8, 2007 at 9:23 pm

Ah yes, the good old "Don't infringe on *my* right to force *my* religion down *my* children's throats" argument. That's like saying "It is a violation of my freedom of speech to keep me from depriving others of the freedom of speech. And no you can't use the same excuse for me, because you would be violating my freedom of religion as well!"

Other Comments by John Done

3. Comment #86263 by Mango on November 8, 2007 at 9:32 pm

 avatar
"We think it is up to each religion to give instruction to its supporters," he said. "It's not up to the public schools to do that."


EXACTLY!

Other Comments by Mango

4. Comment #86270 by 82abhilash on November 8, 2007 at 10:07 pm

I like this idea. It is very close to Dan Dennet's notion of having a class on world religions in public schools. If kids are being taught Christianity, Judaism, aboriginal spirituality, Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism inside the same school, it is higly unlikely that toxic forms of any one of them can talk hold.

It would be even better if every child is taught all of them. Them poor kids will see it all for the crap that it is.

Other Comments by 82abhilash

5. Comment #86275 by papavb on November 8, 2007 at 10:38 pm

Was I the only one who found, catholic thinking oxymoronic?

I hope some legislator runs this policy to its inevitable ad absurdum conclusion, a veritable clusterfuck of zaniness taught in all schools.

The Apollonians and the Mahometans will finally get along! Odin's prophecy is fulfilled!

Other Comments by papavb

6. Comment #86282 by madhatter on November 9, 2007 at 12:32 am


"... it has to do with fear of ethnic groups, many of whom are coming from outside the country and bringing religious practices that seem inappropriate to some Quebecers."


Admirably said.

What? Catholics came from "outside the country" as well? Drat.

Other Comments by madhatter

7. Comment #86289 by Russell Blackford on November 8, 2007 at 11:57 pm

Sounds good.

I think it's positive if kids are not going to be indoctrinated in any particular moral theory or religion. Let their parents teach them the basic virtues of kindness, loyalty, non-violence, honesty, and so on. On controversial issues, expose them to the range of views and let them make up their own minds. That's not relativism - at least not in any bad sense - just acceptance that these moral and religious issues are contested, and for practical purposes intractable.

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8. Comment #86294 by Logicel on November 9, 2007 at 12:17 am

 avatarBut religious groups are worried the new program will undermine parents' efforts to instill the values of their chosen religion in their children.
________

A more accurate phrasing is indoctrinate the dogma.

Religious values are based on non-evidential faith, in other words, just fluff. Brings to mind Hitchens' focus on naming one good thing that a secular person can't do and also Dawkins' focus on not labeling children the religion of their parents (quote above refers to the chosen religion of the parents, exactly, the parent did but the children can't until they are adult).

It is heartening to see advances made, as with this initiative, and the one in a Nordic country where religion can't be taught as if it is true.

Other Comments by Logicel

9. Comment #86296 by Diacanu on November 9, 2007 at 12:26 am

 avatarI got more lessons in being good that I carried through life from Luke Skywalker and Superman as a kid than well....ANY of the Bible.

Bible never took with me.
In fact, once I got up to that Abraham and Isaac part, I was good and fully turned right off.

Superman, flies around, saves women, kids, and kitty cats, Abraham tries to kill his own kid.
It was no contest.

Other Comments by Diacanu

10. Comment #86297 by Logicel on November 9, 2007 at 12:28 am

 avatarThe only message is going to be [that] they are all of equal value.
________

More like the only message is going to be that they are all of no value at all, and all the good stuff that various religions has claimed to be their own is fully available in a secular sense.

Other Comments by Logicel

11. Comment #86302 by infidel_michael on November 9, 2007 at 12:36 am

Quebec City Archbishop Marc Cardinal Ouellet [...] accused the Education Department of imposing "a dictatorship of relativism."

And what is his alternative? "Freedom of absolutism"? = "Don't force kids to choose from many religions, let them freely believe in the one religion of their parents!" :)

Other Comments by infidel_michael

12. Comment #86313 by irate_atheist on November 9, 2007 at 1:32 am

 avatarHey!

Preacher!

Leave them kids alone!!!!

Other Comments by irate_atheist

13. Comment #86320 by Philip1978 on November 9, 2007 at 1:43 am

 avatarGlooscap???????????????????????????????????

What the hell is going on in this world?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glooscap
Look at the picture, that looks freeeeeeeeeky! Thats a zombie, who would worship a zombie...hang on... people pray to that Jesus chap...

Other Comments by Philip1978

14. Comment #86325 by Goldy on November 9, 2007 at 1:47 am

Reading that Wikipedia article reminds me of a bloke telling me the Micmacs were descended from Irish fathers and Scottish mothers :-)

Other Comments by Goldy

15. Comment #86343 by stereoroid on November 9, 2007 at 2:43 am

 avatarSwapping out the Morals, and replacing them with Ethics: sounds like a good start to me.

Other Comments by stereoroid

16. Comment #86354 by Bertybob on November 9, 2007 at 3:38 am

 avatarSounds similar to RE lessons in the UK.

It's not as good as removing religion entirely, but once the kids get their head around "hang on, why am I right and they are wrong", or "well someone must be wrong", it is not a very big step to "this is all bo**ocks".

Go Quebec....

Other Comments by Bertybob

17. Comment #86356 by 35bluejacket on November 9, 2007 at 3:54 am

The lack of value judgement seems to be rampant. Ayn Rand should be clawing at her casket.

Other Comments by 35bluejacket

18. Comment #86357 by monoape on November 9, 2007 at 4:02 am

 avatarWonderful.

This (sort of thing) is where it starts.

Hopefully they'll include The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Other Comments by monoape

19. Comment #86361 by monoape on November 9, 2007 at 4:19 am

 avatar[quote]I got more lessons in being good that I carried through life from Luke Skywalker and Superman ... [/quote]

Very good, Diacanu. I think the same may be true here.

P.S. Stayed in a hotel recently and made the mistake of flicking through The Good Book and came across: http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/judges/judges15.htm.

Who can read that and believe any part of the fairytale is true? Three hundred innocent animals were tortured, people were murdered by beating and by fire ... and what was the reason?

Other Comments by monoape

20. Comment #86362 by irate_atheist on November 9, 2007 at 4:30 am

 avatar19. Comment #86361 by monoape
...and what was the reason?
That would be an ecumenical question.

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21. Comment #86379 by GBile on November 9, 2007 at 5:43 am

 avatarThis is a very good development in Quebec. I hope it will succeed and that it may serve as a model for education in my European country and elsewhere. I think that any first grade and second grade education should take place in 'public schools'. Yes, our children should learn things in a religion free context, and in these schools they could learn about religion in the way described in the article. Of course parents can try to bring their children up in their own religious tradition (if they still have one ...), but school-education should be 'religion-free'.

Only an narrow-minded 'Archbishop' could attack this with the objection that this would be 'a dictatorship of relativism'. Nothing is more dictatorial than religion.

Other Comments by GBile

22. Comment #86416 by JemyM on November 9, 2007 at 7:17 am

 avatarIn Sweden we have had classes like this for a long time.

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23. Comment #86417 by monoape on November 9, 2007 at 7:17 am

 avatar[quote]That would be an ecumenical question.[/quote]

Drink. Feck. Arse. Gerls.

Other Comments by monoape

24. Comment #86420 by Friend Giskard on November 9, 2007 at 7:20 am

 avatarFeck! Monoape got in about two seconds before me.

Other Comments by Friend Giskard

25. Comment #86424 by monoape on November 9, 2007 at 7:28 am

 avatarTalking of 'feck', how does one 'quote' on this fecking site. Testing:

blasphemy ... a victimless crime

blasphemy ... a victimless crime


blasphemy ... a victimless crime

blasphemy ... a victimless crime


A ha - 'preview' showed me the light. Oh, glory be. '< blockquote >' (without spaces) for those in the dark.

In Sweden we have had classes like this for a long time.


Can I come and live with you? :) Along with Norway (http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/Dra-Til-Helvete.html), I think you 'Vikings' are ahead of the curve (as usual - eco, sex, education?).

Other Comments by monoape

26. Comment #86430 by monoape on November 9, 2007 at 7:58 am

 avatarSorry, Mon Ami Giskard - "... of course, all of the girls have lovely bottoms". Hopefully that makes amends. If not:


Father Ted: Maybe he's agoraphobic.
Father Dougal: Jack? Scared of fighting? I don't think so, Ted!


For those sat on the 'bewildered side of the theatre': Father Ted ... the greatest comedy ever created (although I have no proof for that assertion [side-to-side eye movements, wary in the company of atheists ... damn your fact-and-reality-based thinking. It's just true. OK?]).

Other Comments by monoape

27. Comment #86557 by aquilacane on November 9, 2007 at 3:34 pm

 avatarPhilip 1978 - regarding Glooscap, I noticed this, as well.

From Wiki:
Gloosap is casted in the similar role as the Ojibwa Nanabozho and the Cree Wisakedjak. His name Kloskabe means... literally, "Man [created] only from speech."

So my question is—who spoke?

Sounds like a bit of a circular logic sillyness to me. Or they're flat-out telling us the truth that it's all just a story, and only realy exists in their telling of it.

Other Comments by aquilacane

28. Comment #86621 by Frankus1122 on November 9, 2007 at 6:05 pm

 avatarI just bought a book about world religions for my library at school. It is a beautiful book. There are astounding photos of all sorts of strange costumes and bizarre practices. The text also outlines some of the beliefs of the various major religions. It is my hope the students see that all religions are beautiful in many ways. And that they are all nutty in many ways.
It seems perfectly fine to advocate that you should be kind to other people and try to help them and be charitable.
But you must never cut your hair and you have to wear a funny hat and never sit in a chair a menstruating woman has sat in. Um, that I am not so sure about.
How about we are nice to each other and only wear funny hats if we feel like it?

Other Comments by Frankus1122

29. Comment #86656 by notsobad on November 9, 2007 at 9:51 pm

 avatar
Ah yes, the good old "Don't infringe on *my* right to force *my* religion down *my* children's throats" argument.

...and ending with "don't tell me what to do with my kids," is what I often here from Catholics here in Europe.
And at the same time, the same Catholics want to tell others what to do with their foetuses and embryos.
"Go look for consistency in religion," like Carlin said.

Other Comments by notsobad

30. Comment #165750 by Fsbof90 on April 22, 2008 at 8:27 am

 avatarI am from Quebec and I am so glad to read this. When I was in elementary school, I "chose" (along with my parents) the catechism class. I actually did believe all the bullshit the teacher was telling me and the worse thing is that I thought I was being enlightened.

One of my friends wasn't baptized and got into one of those classes. The teacher basically told her she was going to hell. We're talking about elementary school students here, that is disgusting beyond words.

Other Comments by Fsbof90
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