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Exorcism death shocks archdeacon
by NZ Herald
Thanks to Mike Goldthorpe for the link.
Reposted from:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10475430
Also see:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4269877a10.html
One of New Zealand's leading Maori priests says he's surprised and dismayed by the death of a 22-year-old woman in an exorcism gone wrong.
Janet Moses, a mother-of-two, is thought to have drowned when at least one member of her 'healing group' held her under water, while trying to drive out an evil curse.
This afternoon, Anglican Maori Church archdeacon Hone said he'd never heard of anyone dying in a "maketu", but acknowledged they were potentially dangerous ceremonies if not conducted properly.
"These types of ceremonies, maketu's [lifting ceremonies] go on quite regularly but you usually don't hear anything about them publicly because they have achieved what they were meant to," Dr Kaa said.
"But they can be very emotional, very tense, the healer must be in total control.
"If there is any discord in maketu's I am involved with, I will ask them [others in the healing group] to leave, because you can introduce unwanted spirits, the situation can become very dangerous.
"Like I say, you have to be very careful.
"You have to pray greatly, it helps if the victim has family present and you can create links with their whakapapa (their family)."
Ms Moses was found with grazes to her upper arms, forearms and torso.
Dr Kaa said, in some cases, victims needed to be held down by several people as the spirit fought, but he was not familiar with injuries such as scratches and grazes being inflicted.
He said water was often used in such ceremonies, but not the amounts understood to have been involved in Ms Moses' case.
Dr Kaa wouldn't comment on the specifics of the Wellington case which police are now treating as a homicide.
Police say Ms Moses died at a family home in Wainuiomata on October 12.
Police were called to the house by family members.
Inquiry head Detective Senior Sergeant Ross Levy refused to comment on the exorcism theory and said police were trying to establish which individuals were responsible for the death.
He said Ms Moses' paternal family was not involved in the ceremony.
As many as 40 people were at the house during the ceremony and more came and went throughout the day after she died, Mr Levy said.
More than 100 people have already been spoken to, and between 15 and 25 detectives have been working on the case.
Police said she had been dead for about nine hours before they were called and have since interviewed dozens of people in relation to the death.
The curse was believed to have been linked to a relative stealing a taonga (treasure).
Reposted from:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10475430
Also see:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4269877a10.html
One of New Zealand's leading Maori priests says he's surprised and dismayed by the death of a 22-year-old woman in an exorcism gone wrong.
Janet Moses, a mother-of-two, is thought to have drowned when at least one member of her 'healing group' held her under water, while trying to drive out an evil curse.
This afternoon, Anglican Maori Church archdeacon Hone said he'd never heard of anyone dying in a "maketu", but acknowledged they were potentially dangerous ceremonies if not conducted properly.
"These types of ceremonies, maketu's [lifting ceremonies] go on quite regularly but you usually don't hear anything about them publicly because they have achieved what they were meant to," Dr Kaa said.
"But they can be very emotional, very tense, the healer must be in total control.
"If there is any discord in maketu's I am involved with, I will ask them [others in the healing group] to leave, because you can introduce unwanted spirits, the situation can become very dangerous.
"Like I say, you have to be very careful.
"You have to pray greatly, it helps if the victim has family present and you can create links with their whakapapa (their family)."
Ms Moses was found with grazes to her upper arms, forearms and torso.
Dr Kaa said, in some cases, victims needed to be held down by several people as the spirit fought, but he was not familiar with injuries such as scratches and grazes being inflicted.
He said water was often used in such ceremonies, but not the amounts understood to have been involved in Ms Moses' case.
Dr Kaa wouldn't comment on the specifics of the Wellington case which police are now treating as a homicide.
Police say Ms Moses died at a family home in Wainuiomata on October 12.
Police were called to the house by family members.
Inquiry head Detective Senior Sergeant Ross Levy refused to comment on the exorcism theory and said police were trying to establish which individuals were responsible for the death.
He said Ms Moses' paternal family was not involved in the ceremony.
As many as 40 people were at the house during the ceremony and more came and went throughout the day after she died, Mr Levy said.
More than 100 people have already been spoken to, and between 15 and 25 detectives have been working on the case.
Police said she had been dead for about nine hours before they were called and have since interviewed dozens of people in relation to the death.
The curse was believed to have been linked to a relative stealing a taonga (treasure).
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Posted: Sunday, November 11, 2007 | PermalinkComments 1 - 43 of 43 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #87352 by Goldy on November 12, 2007 at 12:43 am
Given the power of the church, I wouldn't hold my breath.Other Comments by Goldy
3. Comment #87354 by Foggerty on November 12, 2007 at 12:51 am
Unlikely, people in government here are anxious as hell not to step on people's cultural toes.Other Comments by Foggerty
4. Comment #87372 by irate_atheist on November 12, 2007 at 2:00 am
"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."- Denis Diderot
Quick - has anyone got a king handy?
Other Comments by irate_atheist
5. Comment #87383 by rory on November 12, 2007 at 2:26 am
"He said Ms Moses' paternal family was not involved in the ceremony."As many as 40 people were at the house during the ceremony."
And by 'ceremony' we should read 'murder', yes?
Other Comments by rory
6. Comment #87413 by black wolf on November 12, 2007 at 3:57 am
Atrocities like this one aren't even uncommon. Recently, a depressive muslim woman was killed in Germany by a faith healer. He filled her bathtub with salted water and made her drink so much of it that she drowned, to drive out her 'possession'. He fled from the scene before police arrived, and was apprehended shortly after.As expected, muslims denounced the practice as un-Islamic and discordant with the Koran. More evidence of how murderously incompetent mainstream religion is at educating their flock.
Ironically, I had a discussion with a charismatic- freechurch Christian these days about the late Padre Pio (the story was on this site also). While he did agree that stigmata are very often the result of auto-suggestive hypnosis, he was quick to add, "or demonic possession". These people have no problem at all with replacing one superstition with another and calling it rational, simply because Jesus said so.
And the problem won't go away, since we can neither prevent them from holding their beliefs nor can we disprove demons.
But we can stir the soup by asking each and every moderate we meet if she believes that there are demons which possess people. If they don't, they're not Christians.
Jesus the Son of God and God could not have been mistaken, right?
Other Comments by black wolf
7. Comment #87429 by stephenray on November 12, 2007 at 5:22 am
Quote Black Wolf: "But we can stir the soup by asking each and every moderate we meet if she believes that there are demons which possess people. If they don't, they're not Christians."You wish. They simply redefine christianity to mean "Whatever I personally believe."
Other Comments by stephenray
8. Comment #87432 by Barbara on November 12, 2007 at 5:33 am
This is insanity! Is there any other way to describe it? Other Comments by Barbara
9. Comment #87435 by black wolf on November 12, 2007 at 5:50 am
You wish. They simply redefine christianity to mean "Whatever I personally believe."
To boot, you're supposed to show respect for such drivel. But I still think publically exposing their superstitions, for instance in television discussions, may at least withdraw the blanket and reveal some of the bronze-age ideas religions inevitably incorporate. Then the next time that person tries to take the high ground, many viewers will definitely know they're istening to an irrationalist.
Plus, religionists love to occupy as much time as possible in public discussions in order to let the rational participants voice a minimal amount of arguments and evidence. In a recent German television discussion on the Phoenix channel, there was one humanist philosopher, namely Schmidt-Salomon of the Giordano Bruno Foundation, and three religious Christians (directly anti-proportional to the actual demographic ratio in Germany). One of them, who is also a prominent news anchorman and author, complained shortly after the beginning that he didn't get enough speaking time, and then smugly and gleefully proceeded to occupy the majority of the discussion time with his concoction of O'Reilly-McGrath style drivel (all the usual first cause, Stalin, love-thy-neighbor propaganda). Salomon barely got two sentences in until the show was over.
Other Comments by black wolf
10. Comment #87448 by Crazymalc on November 12, 2007 at 6:43 am
Yay! New Zealand is my country!Err... wait...
Comment #87351 by mandrellian
All sensitivity to indigenous culture aside, this kind of murderous superstitious bullshit has to be condemned by the NZ government and stamped out in the most vigorous possible way
Don't put it to one side. A fooked up thing is a fooked up thing no matter who does it.
Other Comments by Crazymalc
11. Comment #87453 by octopus on November 12, 2007 at 7:07 am
...but you usually don't hear anything about them publicly because they have achieved what they were meant to
Well...I am no Aristotle...but I think I can follow the logic of the statement...
Other Comments by octopus
12. Comment #87522 by kaiserkriss on November 12, 2007 at 11:09 am
As mandrellian and Foggerty pointed out above, and I paraphrase, governments and politicians are reluctant to step on indigenous and cultural toes... Well my response to that in the case of the Maori, Aborigines, and North American Indian, all of them are a conquered people(by the Europeans) where such barbaric behaviour is no longer condoned by the state, regardless of cultural and religious tolerance. Should the practitioners feel themselves to be above the law of the land they should reap the consequences.Surely basic human rights should supercede any such irrational and dangerous behaviour. The practitioners of these barbaric rituals should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and condemned by society for the charlatans they truly are. jcw
Other Comments by kaiserkriss
13. Comment #87523 by steveroot on November 12, 2007 at 11:10 am
And they criticize the U.S. for waterboarding "detainees". Really, such hypocrisy!Steve
I must add this: Where did this "Dr." Kaakaa get his degree? This is beyond *bat-shit* crazy... it's *kiwi-shit* crazy.
Other Comments by steveroot
14. Comment #87524 by themanchoo on November 12, 2007 at 11:14 am
Of course this is outrageous, but..........my new favourite word is "whakapapa".
Other Comments by themanchoo
15. Comment #87541 by rex on November 12, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Ms Moses wasn't the only person that the crazy family subjected to exorcisms.Follow-up report at http://www.stuff.co.nz/4271124a19715.html
Other Comments by rex
16. Comment #87559 by Shuggy on November 12, 2007 at 1:08 pm
rory:And by 'ceremony' we should read 'murder', yes?No, murder requires the intent to kill. That was the last thing they wanted.
kaiserkris:
the Maori, Aborigines, and North American Indian, all of them are a conquered people(by the Europeans)The Maori were NOT conquered. They signed a treaty in 1840 with Queen Victoria's representatives granting them the rights of British citizens. International law has forced recent goverments to acknowledge this and redress past wrongs.
The practitioners of these barbaric rituals should be prosecuted to the full extent of the lawHydrotherapy? Baptism by total immersion? I don't think so. We need a sense of proportion here. Putting disturbed people in water does calm them down. What seems to have happened here is a kind of Milgram Experiment where, perhaps, no-one was in charge and no-one had the strength of will to overcome the group mentality and call a halt.
steveroot:
And they criticize the U.S. for waterboarding "detainees". Really, such hypocrisy!You're dern tootin' we do! Not hypocrisy at all. The only thing in common is the water. One is a family trying to treat a disturbed person by wacky means and it going disastrously wrong, the other is a major government redefining torture so that it can get away with it.
(What's the derivation of "dern tootin'"?)
Where did this "Dr." KaakaaHis name is Kaa. They're a well-known East Coast family with many distinguished representatives. That's like saying "'Dr' Dork-ins"
get his degree?
The Venerable Dr Hone T K Kaa, MA (Hons) (Auckland), DMin (EDS), LTh. Lecturer in Maori Studies, Ministry Studies/Homiletics/Minihare History
EDS seems to be Episcopal Divinity School, an Episcopal Seminary in Cambridge, Massachusetts
So it's a pretty low-level doctorate, but Hone Kaa is a liberal christian who spoke up for the Anti-smacking Bill when the fundies were opposing it, and supported gay rights when his Archbishop was opposing them.
themanchoo
.....my new favourite word is "whakapapa".Yes, it's a lovely word, isn't it. It doesn't mean "family" but "family tree" or "genealogy" (whaka- = cause to be, papa = laid out flat) and it's pronounced (more or less) "fukapuppa". Doubtless many English words sound like rude words in other languages too.
Other Comments by Shuggy
17. Comment #87624 by Scott McMeekin on November 12, 2007 at 4:00 pm
@ShuggyNo, murder requires the intent to kill. That was the last thing they wanted.
They intended to hold this person, despite their no doubt last few desperate painful thrashings, underwater to the poor bugger's unfortunate and inevitable demise. Ignorance of the laws of a country are not considered to be an adequate defence, so why should ignorance of the laws of nature count? What else could one reasonably expect of these actions? Of COURSE they drowned, and given the physical evidence of struggle, we only have the word of the wingnuts that this wasn't some form of mob revenge killing. How convenient to use religious practice as an excuse.
Scott.
Other Comments by Scott McMeekin
18. Comment #87632 by Dr Benway on November 12, 2007 at 4:19 pm
When you're not getting enough oxygen, shortly before you die, you thrash about violently. People sometimes mistake this agitation for out-of-control behavior that must be subdued. They'll press the person down, further compromising breathing. Other Comments by Dr Benway
19. Comment #87635 by kaiserkriss on November 12, 2007 at 4:30 pm
Shuggy, I plead ignorance to the Maori treaty with Queen Victoria's reps, nevertheless, some of the "cultural" practises of some of the Maoris, should stay in the past, and recognized for the un-contemporaneous hogwash they represent.A complete dunking (referred to as baptism in some circles) is but a quaint quirk, that does no real harm, with willing participants,despite the whole thing being quite ludicrous.
Referring to this tragic circumstance as hydrotherapy, even with a question mark or a Milgram experiment gone wrong is belittling the fact we a have a dead victim. A victim that tried to fight off a "well meaning" mob. That is no excuse in civilized society. jcw
Other Comments by kaiserkriss
20. Comment #87638 by Crazymalc on November 12, 2007 at 4:43 pm
Comment #87559 by Shuggy
The Maori were NOT conquered. They signed a treaty in 1840 with Queen Victoria's representatives granting them the rights of British citizens. International law has forced recent goverments to acknowledge this and redress past wrongs.
Hi Shuggy,
As a (I assume) fellow Kiwi, I agree with almost everything you said. Very astute comments as well.
As yes, there was the Treaty in 1840. There is also the small matter of the NZ land wars though. The Maori put up a good fight to start with, but soon succumbed to colonial might. Large areas of land were confiscated and all native schools closed down.
This is a different type of conquering to other areas, but it is still conquering.
To NZ's credit though, we have gone a long way to addressing these past wrongs.
*sniff* *sniff* Just my two cents
Other Comments by Crazymalc
21. Comment #87677 by Shuggy on November 12, 2007 at 8:05 pm
Scott McMeekin:They intended to hold this person, despite their no doubt last few desperate painful thrashings, underwater to the poor bugger's unfortunate and inevitable demise. Ignorance of the laws of a country are not considered to be an adequate defence, so why should ignorance of the laws of nature count? What else could one reasonably expect of these actions?A homicide investigation is underway. We can expect someone will be convicted of manslaughter. The police's main problem seems to be working out who was in charge.
Of COURSE they drowned, and given the physical evidence of struggle, we only have the word of the wingnuts that this wasn't some form of mob revenge killing. How convenient to use religious practice as an excuse.There is not the slightest bit of evidence that that was the case.
kaiserkris:
Referring to this tragic circumstance as hydrotherapy, even with a question mark or a Milgram experiment gone wrong is belittling the fact we a have a dead victim. A victim that tried to fight off a "well meaning" mob. That is no excuse in civilized society.I'm not trying to excuse it, I'm trying to explain it. They're her loving (by all accounts) family, absolutely devastated by what happened.
There is also the small matter of the NZ land wars though. The Maori put up a good fight to start with, but soon succumbed to colonial might. Large areas of land were confiscated and all native schools closed down.The land wars were guite localised in time and space. Tacticians agree the Maori "won on points". The "confiscations" were land-grabs to "punish" the Maori for fighting to keep the land they had been guaranteed by the Treaty. The Native Schools were not closed until the 1960s.
There is a racial undercurrent to this thread I don't like. I agree that this exorcism was loony, but it is any more culpable than any of the fatal exorcisms that have occurred in white societies? I don't think pre-European exorcism practices were so dangerous (or no more dangerous than comparable contemporary European practices) - I know one way of warding off evil spirits involved w*nking with the left hand while saying an incantation.
Other Comments by Shuggy
22. Comment #87678 by steveroot on November 12, 2007 at 8:06 pm
16. Comment #87559 by Shuggy on November 12, 2007 at 1:08 pm
steveroot:
And they criticize the U.S. for waterboarding "detainees". Really, such hypocrisy!
You're dern tootin' we do! Not hypocrisy at all. The only thing in common is the water. One is a family trying to treat a disturbed person by wacky means and it going disastrously wrong, the other is a major government redefining torture so that it can get away with it.
(What's the derivation of "dern tootin'"?)
Where did this "Dr." Kaakaa
His name is Kaa. They're a well-known East Coast family with many distinguished representatives. That's like saying "'Dr' Dork-ins"
Shuggy, my tongue was so far into my cheek when I typed that it was hitting the keyboard! I failed to use the "sarcasm" emoticon; my bad.
"Kaakaa" was a play on the Spanish "caca", which loosely translated means "shit". Anyone who can say "'These types of ceremonies, maketu's [lifting ceremonies] go on quite regularly but you usually don't hear anything about them publicly because they have achieved what they were meant to,' Dr Kaa said." is clearly full of it, no matter *what* kind of doctor he is.
Steve
Other Comments by steveroot
23. Comment #87693 by dsainty on November 12, 2007 at 9:46 pm
The paper's front page said:
"Charlatans may be to blame", says scholar
So that's the problem. They didn't get a real exorcist.
Other Comments by dsainty
24. Comment #87701 by Shuggy on November 12, 2007 at 10:41 pm
22. Comment #87678 by steveroot on November 12, 2007I'm glad to hear that, but there are plenty of USAmericans who would write that (about the waterboarding) with a straight face.
16. Comment #87559 by Shuggy on November 12, 2007 at 1:08 pm
steveroot:
And they criticize the U.S. for waterboarding "detainees". Really, such hypocrisy!
You're dern tootin' we do! Not hypocrisy at all. ...
Where did this "Dr." Kaakaa
His name is Kaa. They're a well-known East Coast family with many distinguished representatives. That's like saying "'Dr' Dork-ins"
Shuggy, my tongue was so far into my cheek when I typed that it was hitting the keyboard! I failed to use the "sarcasm" emoticon; my bad.
"Kaakaa" was a play on the Spanish "caca", which loosely translated means "shit".I got it. "Dork" is perhaps not known in the US and means "penis".
Anyone who can say "'These types of ceremonies, maketu's [lifting ceremonies] go on quite regularly but you usually don't hear anything about them publicly because they have achieved what they were meant to,' Dr Kaa said." is clearly full of it, no matter *what* kind of doctor he is.Sounds perfectly sensible and afaecal to me, granted the placebo effect, and the hydrotherapy effect.
Other Comments by Shuggy
25. Comment #87717 by Goldy on November 13, 2007 at 12:57 am
I'm only a new Kiwi and still trying for acceptance here (not doing too badly mind :-)) so sometimes feel I don't really have the right to contribute to the pakeha/Maori debates.It does, however, seem to me that there is an undercurrent in NZ society that is scarred by all this - the debates, not the exorcism. I get teh feeling that the media tries its hardest by using Maori terms to show that Maori do have a greater part in society, while at the same time highlighting the social deprivations that appear to be endemic in that society.
Recently there was the terrorism scandal here. OK, I use scandal in the Kiwi sense - wouldn't even make the middle pages in other countries. Concerns a blokey called Tame Iti and the Tuhoe Nation (http://www.ngaituhoe.com/). From what I read, it was a bunch of Maori activists training to kill pakeha. From what I hear, it was rather a bunch of blokes who liked to run around in the hills in camoes and use guns (think Montana and you'll get the picture if you're in the US). Before this there were the stories of toddlers being battered to death (why the anti-smacking bill was brought in). Oddly, all the names were not pakeha.
Yet when Maori do things that are good, it isn't reported. Almost 80% of NZ is pakeha, mostly ex-UK. The names and ethnicities of the leaders are pakeha with a few exceptions (they're the ones that are in fuck-off jobs). Maori are used in adverts and in Disney-esque themes but not really in positions of full control.
What are they to think? The treaty of Waitangi gave them equal rights (http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/category/tid/133), indeed, more than equal rights but they are like all other aboriginal people downtrodden if they try and keep their culture and only accepted if they become more European (more specifically British).
Kaiserkriss, imagine Islam took hold in the UK and became dominant. How would you, an Anglican, react? Full acceptance, or would you try and hold on to your Christian British history?
Easy to criticise and all, but there are probably deeper underlying issues.
Other Comments by Goldy
26. Comment #87729 by shaunfletcher on November 13, 2007 at 1:45 am
Im actually VERY sympathetic to issues concerning maori and other islander groups (mostly educational problems but others too) but I think you need to look more deeply at the political landscape before saying 'Yet when Maori do things that are good, it isn't reported. Almost 80% of NZ is pakeha, mostly ex-UK. The names and ethnicities of the leaders are pakeha with a few exceptions'. I cant see that at all, loads and loads of government ministers, MPs, people in leading public roles etc are Maori. I cant speak for ceos and other private sector roles, but in public life it isnt I think right to say Maori arent represented fairly. And whats the basis for saying good things done by Maori arent reported? The media (assuming you dont listen to old fools on talk radio) are highly sympathetic to Maori causes and issues arent they?'they are like all other aboriginal people downtrodden if they try and keep their culture and only accepted if they become more European' This is also a weird phrase.. are you living in the same new zealand I know? Maori only accepted if they act european? I simply cannot see that at all. Maori culture, art, life is celebrated widely, and actually given precedence in the public sphere. White people call themselves pakeha! think about that. We call ourselves an insulting maori name because that word is just part of our language now.
There are dirt poor areas, where a lot of rural maori are living in unnaceptable conditions. There are some very bad schools serving majority maori areas. There is a cycle of deprivation which needs to be broken. These are the issues that need attention and work. But too often the 'leaders' of the community are more interested in other issues that are more glamorous/interesting or personally lucrative. Maori are very very often let down by their own community as much as by anyone else.
All isnt well in New Zealand for sure, but compared to other countries with an indigenous minority population things are remarkably functional.
However, there IS a foolish acceptance of unnacceptable behvaiours such as family violence, corruption, abuse, incest, in the name of 'inclusiveness' (as we see in this case). And there is some reaction against that in recent times, mostly due to the revelations about child abuse in some communities (and this is a real and huge issue for those communities, not a press invention. A HUGE issue, and one they as a community and the institutional world have known about for decades, but the press kept quiet till it blew open). The frank fact is that dead babies on the front of the newspaper wakes up a society that has been quietly ignoring the problem forever. Then other issues start to get discussed that would have been left alone.
Other Comments by shaunfletcher
27. Comment #87819 by kaiserkriss on November 13, 2007 at 8:46 am
Shuggy wrote:There is a racial undercurrent to this thread I don't like. I agree that this exorcism was loony, but it is any more culpable than any of the fatal exorcisms that have occurred in white societies
"Racial undercurrent" OUCH! The ethnicity of the perpetrators is NOT the issue here.
That the perpetrators are potentially hiding behind a cultural mumbo jumbo belief systems not compatible with life in the 21st Century is more likely it. The same argument applies to any other fatalities as the result of archaic belief systems any where else on the planet.
GOLDY:I think I understand your argument, however your analogy is a bit off; I could never think of myself as a Christian.
What I'm suggesting is that dangerous aspects to human health rituals, in this particular case aspects of the Maori tradition, should be condemned by an enlightened society regardless of how quaint and noble other aspects of their tradition may seem. They should not be given carte blanche by hiding behind tradition.
I'm sure if another member of your family decided to dunk one of your offspring " for their benefit" and the child drowned, you would quite correctly feel quite different and not be so apologetic.
shaunfletcher: I totally support your position.
WE are responsible for our own actions and destiny, NOT some sky fairy, or inner earth troll. jcw
Other Comments by kaiserkriss
28. Comment #87822 by logical on November 13, 2007 at 9:08 am
Compare these:http://www.morbidoutlook.com/lifestyle/spirituality/1999_00_arewitch.html
or:
http://www.vastsverige.com/templates/article____861.aspx
or:
http://groups.msn.com/TheCrossandTheStake/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=7071&LastModified=4675618098619357272#RepliesBookMark
especially the last one. It´s EUROPE.
Other Comments by logical
29. Comment #87860 by Goldy on November 13, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Shaun, like I said, I've only been here 6 years, so not really time enough to fully get a grasp of things. I also work in Auckland in the University, so my views are somewhat skewed :-)This is also a weird phrase.. are you living in the same new zealand I know? Maori only accepted if they act european? I simply cannot see that at all. Maori culture, art, life is celebrated widely, and actually given precedence in the public sphere. White people call themselves pakeha! think about that. We call ourselves an insulting maori name because that word is just part of our language now.
Mate, it's all wierd - trying to put thoughts to, errr, keyboard and wife standing over my should wanting me to hurry up and go. But I think I can stand by what I say - Maori culture is celebrated but don't you feel there is something Disney-esque about it? Don't you feel there is a slightly hysterical promotion of it? Just an outsiders view, mind. Only thing is, I do sometimes get the feeling it is....over-promoted? That the right phrase? I don't know - just doesn't seem easy to me, not like it is fully accepted or that people are totally happy with it on the whole. And look at the fuss when that woman was told to sit at the back in a marae... And then there's the money given to Maori for education - sort of a placating thing, son't you think? Other New Zealanders have to get there on merit, as it were. I know this is a slightly contentious thing, at least here at the Uni. I have heard the phrase "yeah, but they only got that position/funding/research because they are Maori!" And not just once. And what is your first thought when you see a guy with a moko?
Maybe being European is not totally right but sometimes I just get that outsider's feeling....
As for pakeha, it grated once. Now it's just normal - like the turning left rule :-) Insulting maybe - but then if blacks wear "nigger" with a twisted and subversive sense of pride, then I guess I can live with pakeha.
Not that it matters to me. I love it here - wild horses could not drag me back to the UK. I am a Kiwi now and I'm staying one :-)
Other Comments by Goldy
30. Comment #87889 by rustylix on November 13, 2007 at 2:06 pm
SELECT *FROM HealingGroup
WHERE (clue > 0)
0 rows returned
Other Comments by rustylix
31. Comment #87914 by shaunfletcher on November 13, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Ill be back home in Auckland in 3 weeks yay.Anyway.. Ive seen and felt all you describe now youve described it further.. but then I went there in a smiliar fashion about 10 years ago.
And yes the nasty little digs at maori over educational 'help' etc grate every single time I hear them. Just like the oh so common 'jokes' about asian people.
Other Comments by shaunfletcher
32. Comment #87917 by Goldy on November 13, 2007 at 4:11 pm
Weather's lovely - sun, then shower! Hot, then freezing! Typical Auckland weather this time of the year :-)As for jokes about Asians, wife doesn't much go for them either. And people who claim not to understand her get the full verbal treatment...but then Shanghai lasses are rather feisty :-)
Other Comments by Goldy
33. Comment #87921 by BAEOZ on November 13, 2007 at 4:17 pm
Weather's lovely - sun, then shower! Hot, then freezing!
I work for the law firm representing the city of Melbourne's long standing and publicly accepted claim to being the city with four seasons in one day. Auckland is requested to stop using Melbourne's weather.
Other Comments by BAEOZ
34. Comment #87927 by Goldy on November 13, 2007 at 4:44 pm
As a recipient of the aforementioned Melbourne weather, this Auckland resident hereby requests that Melbourne refrains froom sending its weather over :-)I was in Melbourne last year for Xmas. Great - staid with friends and it was 40° (celsius, not fahrenheit). Hotter than a hot thing that's hot. My parents called to ask what they should bring to wear. Shorts, said I, and tee shirts. Imagine their surprise when turning up and finding Xmas eve being colder than a cold thing that's cold, rain and hail.
Good for the fire fighters, mind...they got a brief respite over Xmas :-)
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35. Comment #87938 by Steve Wrathall on November 13, 2007 at 5:59 pm
There is another thread I started on this sad event at:http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=28497
Irate_Atheist said:
>>"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."
- Denis Diderot
>>Quick - has anyone got a king handy?
If anyone's seen the latest National Geographic, I nominate the Tongan king.
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36. Comment #87944 by Crazymalc on November 13, 2007 at 6:53 pm
My take:http://www.crazymalc.co.nz/2007/Nov/13Nov/13Nov.htm
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37. Comment #87955 by steveroot on November 13, 2007 at 8:36 pm
36. Comment #87944 by Crazymalc on November 13, 2007 at 6:53 pm
My take:
http://www.crazymalc.co.nz/2007/Nov/13Nov/13Nov.htm
Nice work!
FYI, "drowned to death" is redundant; you can't "drown" and not be dead. :-)
Steve
(ref: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/drown )
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38. Comment #87982 by hopeful on November 14, 2007 at 1:39 am
I am a New Zealander and I didn't know about this practice. Maori religious beliefs have always seemed relatively harmless.This country has it's share of religion, superstition and new age lunacy, I'm sorry to say.
We also have an establishment determined to be politically correct and support cultural and religious diversity at all costs.
Politicians very rarely have the courage to speak honestly about anything that might offend religious or cultural sensitivities.
I think that in the case of the Maori, politically correct NZrs of European descent have convinced many Europeans and most importantly the Maori themselves that the European NZrs of today are responsible for most Maori misfortune (past and present). In my opinion, while the do-gooders fall over themselves to appease Maori cultural sensitivities and right the wrongs of the past, they actually create a racial divide, and hold Maori back from integrating into a 21st century global community.
There is also a lot of hypocrisy here. Many like to criticise the USA, but at the same time they are are happy to take many things from it, both good (such as science and technology) and also bad (such as youth gang culture and TV evangelism).
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39. Comment #87984 by Goldy on November 14, 2007 at 1:45 am
This country has it's share of religion, superstition and new age lunacy, I'm sorry to say
Brian Tamaki? :-D
http://www.destinychurch.org.nz/
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40. Comment #89028 by Shuggy on November 19, 2007 at 2:29 pm
(I've had the devil's own luck getting this posted...)shaunfletcher:
White people call themselves pakeha! think about that. We call ourselves an insulting maori name because that word is just part of our language now.Any insult is in the mind of the Päkehä. It's just the Mäori word for non-Mäori. Te reo Päkehä means the English language, and "whakapäkehä" means "translate into English". Its derivation (contrary to some fanciful back-constructions that usually get the vowel lengths wrong) is lost. I like it because it's positive, and to object to it because it's a Mäori word would be racist. I'm certainly not European, nor from the Caucasus.
Goldy:
And look at the fuss when that woman was told to sit at the back in a marae...Not the back, just not the front row where the speakers sit. This is a thorny issue (because sex roles are deeply entrenched, and they don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater) that Mäori women are working on. If you want to change it, do it by supporting them. That woman (Josie Bullock) just barged up to the front.
And then there's the money given to Maori for education - sort of a placating thing, son't you think?You can't just take off a ball and chain that someone's worn for over a century and expect them to win a 100 metre sprint straight away.
And what is your first thought when you see a guy with a moko?What a beautiful moko! (Or, what an incompetent moko - must have got it at a shop.)
hopeful:
I think that in the case of the Maori, politically correct NZrs of European descent have convinced many Europeans and most importantly the Maori themselves that the European NZrs of today are responsible for most Maori misfortune (past and present).That is so obviously false that no-one could believe it.
In my opinion, while the do-gooders fall over themselves to appease Maori cultural sensitivities and right the wrongs of the past, they actually create a racial divide, and hold Maori back from integrating into a 21st century global community.You assume that Mäori want or need to "integrate". Has it occured to you that we might have something to learn from them? Some of us have taken on some Mäori values, and been enriched by them. EG how we handle death, or the emphasis on people over property. And compared to the creationists, the Mäori creation myth is closer to reality than the Judeo-Christain one, in that it emphasises that all living beings are related.
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41. Comment #89063 by Goldy on November 19, 2007 at 4:10 pm
Shuggy, re your last points - I did say I am new here, only been here 6 years, so I can only write about what I feel I am observing...in you get my drift. I do take your point about learning from Maori - I used integration wrong. Damn this Eurocentricity I'm lumbered with! Sorry about that! Mind you, the taniwha holding up road construction when I arrived was a bit...odd :-) (I do realise now the political motive behind it.)Oh, regarding the moko. A lass here at the med school in Auckland has one. Nice. But didn't the revival of the moko have criminal gangs in part helping it get back into mainstream? Not that I think they are that different now (was a bit filled with wonder at first) but in the main the people I asked about in Wellington when I was there about their moko said it was due to their gang membership (and, as I also found out, being a member of a gang does not necessarily make one an evil person - they were actually quite nice to me)
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42. Comment #89757 by Shuggy on November 21, 2007 at 4:26 pm
Goldy:The taniwhä was reported in a very redneck way. The story as reported in the Mäori media was very different (as was the Tühoe hïkoi).
The revival of moko was very different for men and women. The käuae (women's chin tattoo) never died completely. In 1973 I went to a dining hall opening at Mangakino where Waikato fielded more than 10! (all old ladies), and Michael King's book came out soon after, written very much as though it was the end of an era, but there were a handful - largely in the backblocks - right through until the current revival. There were no full-facial male tattoos at all between about the 1910s and the 1990s, so the art had to be rediscovered from, um, scratch. You may be right that the male revival began with the gangs, but there are some very respectable bearers of it now, and even more of the body tattoos, especially on the buttocks (rape - two syllables) and thighs. Someone should write another book about the revival.
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43. Comment #90559 by Goldy on November 25, 2007 at 2:11 pm
True enough, ShuggyFrom today's Herald
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10478339.
There's also this editorial piece about integration etc...
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=252&objectid=10478255
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1. Comment #87351 by mandrellian on November 12, 2007 at 12:34 am
All sensitivity to indigenous culture aside, this kind of murderous superstitious bullshit has to be condemned by the NZ government and stamped out in the most vigorous possible way.Other Comments by mandrellian