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Thursday, November 15, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Secular Fundamentalists: There is no such thing...and the AAI conference doesn't make atheism a movement, either.

by Kelly O'Connor, RRS

Reposted from:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/secular_fundamentalists_there_is_no_such_thing_and_the_aai_conference_doesn_t_make_atheism_a_movement_either

kellyOne of the methods used by the religious to marginalize atheists and our increasing visibility is to accuse us of becoming that which we originally opposed, or in other words, just like them. It's even better if they have the convenience of one experience with these so-called "secular fundamentalists" from which they can draw unfounded conclusions as to the validity of this argument and, ultimately, the character of all those who have no belief in gods, goddesses, or other mythical creatures.

This is the route taken by Michael Brendan Dougherty in the November issue of The American Conservative. His article, entitled "Secular Fundamentalists: Can atheists form a movement around shared disbelief", uses this year's Atheist Alliance International convention as fodder for his clumsy attempt to represent atheism as a new phenomenon comprised of the dogmatically anti-religious.

The title alone is an oxymoron—would Mr. Dougherty mind explaining the fundamentals of secularism before he starts labeling us as adherents to them? He tries to use Sam Harris' speech about the word "atheist" and the subsequent reaction as proof of this claim, pointing out the discomfort of the audience during his speech. He goes on to assume that Sam Harris would prefer that there be no AAI conference next year, which is only true in one scenario—that in which religion is no longer a menace to society and has been effectively stripped of its power.

Of course, according to Mr. Dougherty, the only reason we get together is to tell jokes about pedophile priests and fight the morality imposed upon us by the "prudes and prigs" who surround us, it is really unnecessary since all of this can be done online anyway. As a matter of fact, most of the conference attendees or those with whom I have spoken regarding Harris' speech, which was reprinted in The Washington Post, were pleased to see a dissenting position presented, even if some may have disagreed with that position. This is an example of the very thing that makes atheism different from religion; we're allowed to ask questions and present our differences of opinion. There's no excommunication from atheism. Apparently, he hung around for the Q&A, but failed to mention that in my question to Sam, I stated that I agreed conceptually but see no other way to gain any influence as a group by avoiding the one word under which we can unite. Harris agrees with that, and furthermore, I think that as atheists, we all agree that we would prefer to live in a world in which the word was not even necessary.

Dougherty goes on to the addition of Harris' somewhat controversial affinity for meditation. He adds the jab frequently used against us, that we hate all religions, rather than just not believing in them, and goes on to misrepresent Daniel Dennett's comment that he himself had been practicing meditation. Of course, in his mind, the audience was deeply troubled by this, despite the fact that meditation does not necessarily have a religious connotation and does have scientific evidence to show that similar contemplative practices have health benefits. Meditation may not be everybody's cup of tea, but there were certainly some in the audience who understand this point, but mentioning that would undermine his initial claim that we are "fundamentalists." So he chooses to be dishonest instead, proclaiming that "the leaders of unbelief are exposed as potential monks and mystics."

At least we still have Hitchens, whom he briefly addresses by using the well-worn "he's just angry at God" argument. He then finds it humorous that conference attendees are excited by the opportunity to meet these distinguished individuals, and points out a person that had a conversation with Hitchens and was ecstatic, claiming that this is a form of "idol worship" and a religion of its own. If that is true, then Christians are assuredly in violation of their precious commandments by idolizing their own batch of celebrities such as Rick Warren, Dinesh D'Souza, or Lee Strobel. Being happy to meet a person that you admire and respect, who has potentially influenced your life through their work, is now a religion, folks. Again, nothing other than juvenile and amateur attempts to disparage atheists and a simple restatement of that childish taunt, "I know you are but what am I?"

In an egregious violation of journalistic objectivity, he goes on to personally insult Margaret Downey, referring to her as a "dippy hostess." Margaret has fought for the rights of atheists and gays to join the Boy Scouts, has given a presentation to the United Nations on the discrimination of atheists, and is still the UN expert on atheist discrimination in the US. She has worked tirelessly for years on end and put her own life at risk to make separation of church and state a reality, not just some words on an aged document. The fact that he would have the audacity to refer to one of the most influential women in the world of atheism as he did displays the utter lack of respect and contempt that he holds for those who do not worship his imaginary friend, yet he wonders why we feel the need to rally together, speak up, and rattle cages.

The fact that, in his opinion, holding a conference qualifies your group as a "movement" is mildly amusing. I guess that makes attendees of "Star Trek" conventions members of a pro-Star Trek movement. In much the same way that the aforementioned "Trekkies" are chided for having their apparel, costumes, and merchandise, Dougherty goes on to more trivial evidences of this subversive "atheist movement."

Apparently, Dougherty finds "young men with haircuts fit for their mother's basement" a valid point upon which to base an argument that we are nothing more than a "cranky subculture" that wants to ridicule religion much as a teenager wants to rebel against his/her parents. He interestingly notes that we did not view "The Passion of the Christ" and instead chose "Life of Brian". I take it he didn't consider that we atheists have no desire to watch a man brutally tortured and ultimately murdered for two and a half hours. I consider that to be a good thing, and would certainly allow my children to watch "Life of Brian" before that snuff film of which he apparently approves.

He comes back to the worst insult Christians have to offer, which is the conflation of atheism to a religion itself. It is about time that atheists come together at conferences and stand up for ourselves in a country dominated by irrationality. How ironic that the best argument he can muster is that we're just like them. He claims that the conference "provides plenty of evidence" by "[resembling] an evangelical retreat weekend." Wouldn't any conference probably have similarities; such as there were speakers, there were meetings, and an amalgamation of people hanging out conversing? Again, if the Church of Star Trek hasn't been founded already, it is now, whether the fans agree or not. He completely ignores the valid criticisms of religious belief and insists on using ridicule and insults to make the entire concept seem silly, much like Christianity. Is he projecting his own feelings regarding the absurdity of his own religion, maybe?

He attacks Julia Sweeney as a "D-list celebrity" eager for a second career as an atheist spokesperson. The fact that she does a monologue based on her personal experience with religion escapes him, and once again, he sardonically quips that she must be fun on dates after she recounts a story about debating evolution while out with a former romantic interest. Watch out ladies and gentlemen—we've entered the "no-humor" zone.

The ad hominems don't stop there, either. His next target is Greydon Square, and Dougherty can't stop himself from painting him as a thug with a rap sheet. We all know that getting arrested completely discredits a person despite the validity of their beliefs or lack thereof in this case. Any journalist with credibility would at least have done his research and known that Greydon was released that day—his only charge being an unpaid ticket. We can add this to the list of half-truths purposely written by Dougherty and designed to deceive the readers.

Coming full circle back to Sam Harris, he quotes Sam from The End of Faith as saying, "Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them." Not only is this completely skewed and out of context, he presumes that nobody would contemplate this statement. If you had the ability to stop the 9/11 hijackers before they boarded the planes that eventually slammed into buildings, killing thousands, would you have? What if lethal force was the only means by which it was possible? It is certainly a delicate subject, but it is not presented accurately in Dougherty's piece. Dougherty's defense then consists of the absurd claim that, "The Inquisition at least allowed defendants the chance to recant—often many times." Yes, they did, offer a choice between keeping one's integrity and dying or lying about one's lack of belief and remaining alive. What a stunning example of Christian generosity and kindness. Maybe we should watch two and a half hours of that at next year's AAI conference.

Finally, we have Richard Dawkins. Even this criticism isn't bereft of superficial personal attacks, as he refers to Prof. Dawkins as "owl-faced" and "ignorant of religious people as a species." Apparently, a speciation event occurred that officially separates the logical from the illogical; the reason-based from the faith-based. Unfortunately, it's not true (sorry if he got anybody's hopes up).

He argues that Dawkins' proposition that religious indoctrination is tantamount to child abuse and that we should refrain from labeling our children as a particular religion is reductive and tendentious. Dougherty claims that religion is not a "mere set of mental propositions" and is, in fact, a way of life started at birth. I don't imagine that Dawkins would disagree with the latter, but the issue is one of choice and the autonomy of children. It concerns the routine obfuscation that occurs when parents lie to their children with regards to evolution, history and the value of faith as a reasonable methodology. Many who have suffered from this treatment do not possess the ability to deprogram themselves as adults, and thus logic and rationality have been suppressed for yet another generation.

If he has no problem with that concept, why is it that he aims to make Julia Sweeney look like a child abuser for telling her daughter that they don't believe in God? If the general consensus is that pushing religion on your children is not an issue, then why is the advocacy of non-religion? Why was there such a backlash to our own Blasphemy Challenge, largely because teens were being "targeted" by the evil atheists? It is the obvious hypocrisy that is most problematic here—indoctrination from Christian parents is fine, but atheist parents need to keep their lack of belief to themselves. The hazard represented by this mode of thought is actualized in the many cases of discrimination against atheist parents in child custody cases.

This article was nothing short of a long list of intellectually inept claims peppered with personal attacks which do more to reveal the character of the author than his intended targets. Michael Brendan Dougherty should be ashamed of himself for exploiting the kindness of the atheists at the conference who spoke with him in order to purposely malign and misrepresent us. His penchant for focusing on irrelevant, superficial details, such as age, clothing or hair-style, was deftly demonstrated in this piece, which I can only describe as being a supremely dishonest polemic aimed at the continued marginalization of atheists. Hopefully, his lack of journalistic integrity will prevent him from getting a press pass at any future events.

Here is the original article.

Comments 1 - 34 of 34 |

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1. Comment #88255 by Jack Rawlinson on November 15, 2007 at 3:43 pm

 avatarSee, one of the reasons I was so irritated by Sam Harris's speech was I just knew it would get used like this. Ah well, I don't want to re-hash that argument again.

Good summation and dispatching of the latest round of bullshit from one of the desperate defenders of the faith.

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

2. Comment #88256 by Arcturus on November 15, 2007 at 3:49 pm

 avatar"[resembling] an evangelical retreat weekend." :)

What kind of idiot makes this argument?

You can tell him what you think about his piece at:

http://surfeited.net/blog/out-of-africa-atheists.html

Other Comments by Arcturus

3. Comment #88257 by articulett on November 15, 2007 at 3:52 pm

Beautifully written!

Other Comments by articulett

4. Comment #88258 by Russell Blackford on November 15, 2007 at 4:10 pm

Kelly is getting better all the time - this piece is really well-written.

By the way, I see nothing wrong with getting together to gripe with likeminded people about all the prudes and prigs who are around these days - not just the religious nuts but also the lefty, middleclass wowsers who infest the media and the political process. Obviously, that's not the point of the conference, but if someone did actually run an anti-prudes-and-prigs conference I'd be there; I think it would be a great idea.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

5. Comment #88259 by zarcus on November 15, 2007 at 4:10 pm

 avatarI read Michael Brendan Dougherty's essay after reading most of Kelly O'Connor's response. I then came back to read the entire response and find it pretty goofy. Dougherty's essay is stupid in parts, but from a piece out of American Conservative it's pretty tame. If this the reaction to a piece like that then I would say someone needs a vacation.

Other Comments by zarcus

6. Comment #88266 by steve99 on November 15, 2007 at 4:29 pm

 avatarI do have to say I am impressed. I think this new direction for the RSS is excellent, and Kelly is doing a great job.

Other Comments by steve99

7. Comment #88267 by Duff on November 15, 2007 at 4:30 pm

Kelly,
Are you telling us this religious person is being dishonest!!! I'm shocked, I tell you! Shocked! A representative of the religious, simple people dishonest??? This just might destroy my faith in religion. Well...if I had any faith in religion it would destroy it. Well...if the religionites had any credibility it would be diminished by this...so, if they are slimy and slippery, I shouldn't be surprised, should I? Are you telling me they are a bunch of fuckwits after all? Shocked!!

Other Comments by Duff

8. Comment #88276 by Janus on November 15, 2007 at 5:14 pm

 avatarThat was very good.

The title's too long.

Other Comments by Janus

9. Comment #88277 by OhioAtheist on November 15, 2007 at 5:24 pm

 avatarThis is the first piece of real first-rate argument I've seen from the RRS. And I mean that not as a disparagement of the squad's prior activities, but as praise for this article.

Other Comments by OhioAtheist

10. Comment #88278 by FreeThink25 on November 15, 2007 at 5:29 pm

Zarcus,

So you're suggesting that tame arguments should not be countered, regardless of how poorly the arguments are reasoned? Is the new discourse to be based on how outrageous the article is, rather than how irrational? That seems silly to me. I, as many others here, actually enjoy Kelly's writing and hope she doesn't take your advice and 'take a vacation' just because you find a poorly thought-out attack to be "timid" enough to be ignored.

And Duff, your tone seems to be a bit hostile as well. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting the demeanor of your sarcasm...I hope so.

It is discouraging to me that any time Kelly writes an article, people respond negatively, or feel that it is their place to offer her their advice and criticism. I'm sure she has more qualified people in her circle to offer assistance, and I truly doubt that she's combing the RD forums searching for some pointers. I'll concede that it is possible that she is, and that she even appreciates it. But couldn't we all just discuss the logic of her arguments? On a site devoted to reason and evidence, that seems the proper choice.

What I truly dread is that some of this response is based on the fact that she is a woman.....wow....that would really be embarrassing.

Other Comments by FreeThink25

11. Comment #88284 by Gymnopedie on November 15, 2007 at 6:38 pm

I'm in complete agreement with OhioAtheist. Keep up the good work RRS.

Other Comments by Gymnopedie

12. Comment #88285 by Russell Blackford on November 15, 2007 at 6:39 pm

Given that Kelly is quite explicitly developing a presence as someone who's new to writing this kind of stuff, but now making a real effort to do it in a concerted way, I think it's natural that we're watching how she goes ... and that she gets a certain amount of advice, constructive criticism, and similar comment. There's nothing sinister about it, and if a bloke did exactly what she's doing the same thing would happen.

I mean, she does cop a lot of sexist crap, but I don't think the comments on this site should be viewed in that light.

The negative comments are another thing: I'm not a great fan of negativity towards our allies unless it is for some very important reason, as when someone with a very high profile says something very controversial.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

13. Comment #88286 by BaronOchs on November 15, 2007 at 6:41 pm

 avatar
While Harris comes perilously close to validating the existence of religious experience


Why is the idea that certain experiences just obviously have to be explained with reference to the supernatural so persistent? I'm glad Sam Harris addressed this topic; perhaps in time it'll be less easy to wave in our faces like a trump card.


"The Inquisition at least allowed defendants the chance to recant—often many times."


Is he just being snide or does he really believe that denying someone their freedom of conscience is morally one up from actually killing them?

Ridiculous man.

Other Comments by BaronOchs

14. Comment #88290 by Veronique on November 15, 2007 at 7:38 pm

 avatarGood on you Kelly O'Connor! Nice to see you writing and posted on this site. I have yet to read Dougherty's article however I am sure you picked the thrust and have responded in your properly irreverent manner:-).

Actually no. You have taken to task someone who has attempted disparagement of a group of people who came together to listen and learn in a well-organised and well-executed convention.

Would Dougherty have written similarly about a convention of clean energy protagonists coming together to exchange views on how to reduce our dependence on oil? Would he have written similarly about another group coming together to exchange views on how to build a health care safety net for the millions of people who need a universal health care system? Or education professionals? I am sure you could add your own lists to these.

No, you have responded well to someone who has written a nonsensical polemic.

Well done!

Duff is playing the ingénue very well. I have been caught by posters because I take them seriously and my reply is totally inappropriate. Duff is very clear:-).

I will now read Dougherty's piece.
V

Edit I have read Dougherty - I will reiterate - well done Kelly!!

Other Comments by Veronique

15. Comment #88297 by notbadfora human on November 15, 2007 at 10:00 pm

 avatarI read Dougherty's article, and it pisses me off no end that arseholes him get a public forum to lie and misrepresent in this way. But I guess that isn't surprising as the religious apologists are getting worried, and I'm sure we'll hear more of this whenever there are any "dissenting" voices within the 'aetheist (sorry, Sam!) community'.

I thought Kelly's blow by blow riposte to his bullshit was excellent.

Other Comments by notbadfora human

16. Comment #88310 by skyhook0 on November 15, 2007 at 11:37 pm

There is such a thing as secular fundamentalists. It's obvious that there are some people among us who are unthinking adherents to a dogma - only in their case they happen to have chosen one that's correct. In /Genome/ or /Agile Gene/ - I forget which - Matt Ridley says that religion isn't heritable, but zealotry is. There are clearly some atheists who would be right at home in the crusades, but by what appears to be sheer luck, are in fact correct in their metaphysical assumptions. They are blind squirrels who have found a nut. I don't agree with this article, but I think all of us who wish to make atheism a publicly acceptable stance ought to think twice before giving a full endorsement to the RRS and the like. The "blind squirrels" will be every bit as unable to defend their position (though it happens to be correct) as any priest, because they don't have the intellectual chops. I've witnessed it. Those of us who put our "faith," such as it is, in reason, should avoid associating with them.

Other Comments by skyhook0

17. Comment #88319 by bitbutter on November 16, 2007 at 1:28 am

 avatar(Repost of my comment on the guy's blog)
A cowardly piece. Snide enough to poison the well, half-jokey enough to escape the responsibility that comes with actually saying something in earnest.

http://surfeited.net/blog/out-of-africa-atheists.html

Other Comments by bitbutter

18. Comment #88337 by blueollie on November 16, 2007 at 4:39 am

I subscribe to TAC (no, I am a liberal but the TAC is very anti-war).

The article being talked about really appears to make the following point: atheists in most ways are just like everybody else.

If the author of the TAC article really wanted to attend an atheist meeting, he ought to go to a science conference. :-)

Other Comments by blueollie

19. Comment #88338 by Veronique on November 16, 2007 at 5:03 am

 avatar18. Comment #88320 by crazy old man

I know you didn't mean it to be but I found your post hilarious. LOL!!

Anecdotes are a bit like that. I haven't got one to match yours:-) However, I enjoyed it immensely.

Thank you
V

Other Comments by Veronique

20. Comment #88347 by phasmagigas on November 16, 2007 at 5:42 am

 avatarskyhook0

The "blind squirrels" will be every bit as unable to defend their position (though it happens to be correct) as any priest, because they don't have the intellectual chops.


so should a 14 year old boy not use condoms during sex with his girlfriend if he is unable to form a coherent argument with a priest as to why he should use them despite the priests opposition?? the boy is the blind squirrel in this case but im not sure we should hold that against him. i use this example as i suspect the average 14 year has a bit to learn re arguments, esp against priests.



Other Comments by phasmagigas

21. Comment #88349 by phasmagigas on November 16, 2007 at 5:46 am

 avatar
I was sharing a tent with this fellow Matthew, who happened to be a budding homosexual. He was also a raging pyromaniac


haha, remids me of a line from 'dirty harry' although the chase involved an erection (i wont insert the real word!) and a zippo!!

Other Comments by phasmagigas

22. Comment #88373 by shemp333 on November 16, 2007 at 9:24 am

 avatarGreat article, Kelly! Well written and spot on. Look forward to reading more of your writing in the near future.

Other Comments by shemp333

23. Comment #88381 by Styrer- on November 16, 2007 at 10:57 am

Although the language expressing them could be more precise in parts, O'Connor's points seem absolutely unassailable.

This is an important rebuttal and I am glad it has been made so comprehensively.

More, please.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

24. Comment #88382 by Phaeonix on November 16, 2007 at 11:04 am

 avatarGood stuff Kelly.

No matter how "timid" these articles and essays are, we actively need to engage them. We are often the only barrier between distortion and reality, regardless of our world views.

Other Comments by Phaeonix

25. Comment #88396 by Garnok on November 16, 2007 at 1:02 pm

he refers to Prof. Dawkins as "owl-faced"


Hmm, I've always heard that owls were associated with wisdom. Were I Dawkins I'm not sure I would feel too insulted by this and find it more of a compliment. Maybe Dougherty attended the "Beavis and Butthead School of Insulting".

If the general consensus is that pushing religion on your children is not an issue, then why is the advocacy of non-religion? Why was there such a backlash to our own Blasphemy Challenge, largely because teens were being "targeted" by the evil atheists? It is the obvious hypocrisy that is most problematic here—indoctrination from Christian parents is fine, but atheist parents need to keep their lack of belief to themselves.


See also the latest bruha over the movie The Golden Compass and the books the movie is based on. Yet I saw many people had no problem at all about having their children watch The Passion of the Christ whether it was at the theater, at home or at church. Even if I were Christian I'd have concerns over the violent and bloody content of the movie in regards to young children. I suppose that is some small evidence that, for some, typical matters of propriety become irrelevent for some when it comes to religion, at least of the Christian variety. Given the number of bootleg DVD copies of that movie I saw floating around, I suppose the same goes for legal issues, secular or religious, as well.

As others have said, good article.

Other Comments by Garnok

26. Comment #88413 by skyhook0 on November 16, 2007 at 2:08 pm

Hmm... I posted my comments after a long day at the bar and I don't think I actually read the article. Not sure what I was trying to say... so, they are withdrawn.

Other Comments by skyhook0

27. Comment #88611 by Vaal on November 18, 2007 at 3:20 am

 avatarThis is my response to him on his blog..

Oh Oh, looks like the religious apologists are squealing big time. Might be time to address a single argument rather than this adolescent rant. No wonder the irrational are on the run, as they have no argument other than the usual inane gobbledygook.

"The Inquisition at least allowed defendants the chance to recant—often many times." Pratt. So, the choice of being tortured and murdered or the choice of lying. What a nobrainer. Suggest you read "The Crucible" by Arthur Miller to see where that line of reasoning leads.

Other Comments by Vaal

28. Comment #88615 by keith on November 18, 2007 at 3:47 am

 avatarOhioAtheist,
This is the first piece of real first-rate argument I've seen from the RRS. And I mean that not as a disparagement of the squad's prior activities, but as praise for this article.

It's both. There's no way you can call something not-first-rate and for it not to sound disparaging. Unless, of course, the RSS have been aiming until now to be second-rate, in which case they'll be quite pleased.

Other Comments by keith

29. Comment #88732 by dialector on November 18, 2007 at 5:50 pm

"The title alone is an oxymoron—would Mr. Dougherty mind explaining the fundamentals of secularism before he starts labeling us as adherents to them?"

The above is based on a fallacy. Words are so often misused and abused. Secular folks don't mind using the word "funamentalist" to describe overly zealous adherents to religious faith. Yet, in the Christian example, there are so many sects with so much diversity in belief that it is easy to find two conservative (fundamentalist?) christians who believe very different things. This raises the issue that fundamentalism has less to do with a common standard of world view than it does with attachement to the particulars of your own beliefs, no matter what they are. The semantic range of words used in association to religion are almost always larger than religion can contain. But we allow religion to dominate our use of language. That power needs to be taken away from them. Any person who is excessively attached to the particulars of their world view can legitimately be described as a "fundamentalist". The word fundamentalist is an adjective derived from the noun fundamentalism. This means "strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles". (from a dictionary) So any person, religious or secular, can be a fundamentalist with out creating an oxymoron. And this does not require that common standards be defined. The very idea of "Secular Fundamentalist" being an oxymoron is just semantic bluster.

Other Comments by dialector

30. Comment #88739 by Russell Blackford on November 18, 2007 at 6:49 pm

dialector, the words "fundamentalist", "fundamentalism", etc., have a clear historical meaning. A fundamentalist is someone who believes in the literal and inerrant truth of the Bible. By extension, it can be someone who has that kind of belief about another holy book such as the Koran.

The problem with such belief is that it is sustained in the face of what is discovered through the processes of rational inquiry. As a result, fundamentalists often end up adopting such absurd, stupid positions as young earth creationism.

There may, by analogy, be such a thing as a "fundamentalist Marxist" (someone who treats the words of Das Kapital, say, as beyond any correction), or a "fundamentalist Objectivist" (someone who takes the same attitude to the works of Ayn Rand).

However, Kelly is basically correct: there is no such a thing as a "fundamentalist secularist" or a "secular fundamentalist" (as opposed a Marxist or Randian, etc., fundamentalist). There is no one whose mere secularism locks her into a body of supposedly inerrant doctrine that he or she will believe dogmatically in the face of whatever is discovered by reason.

People who talk about "fundamentalist secularism" or "fundamentalist atheism" are playing dishonest semantic games. It's a debating tactic that we must continually expose, though I'm getting sick of having to do, and comments like yours don't help. It is just wrong - and highly unhelpful - to accuse people of "semantic bluster" when they set the record straight.

More charitably, some people who use the tactic of talking about secular fundamentalism may simply be ignorant: they don't understand what fundamentalism is, what is actually wrong with it, or why we criticise fundies in the first place.

Well, that means we have to educate them, and kudos to Kelly for doing some of that.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

31. Comment #88750 by dialector on November 18, 2007 at 10:14 pm

Russel, your post was a thoughtful one.

I know that the religiously specific connotations of the word fundamentalist are clear and with significant historical basis. However, just because the history of religious domination has a tendency to artificially restrict the semantic range of some of the words we use, does not make that restriction appropriate. The dictionary definitions of the term do include a wider range of usage that is completely independent of religion. And I do not believe that the religious should be allowed to own so many words as they seem to own.

This is an interesting comment:
"There is no one whose mere secularism locks her into a body of supposedly inerrant doctrine that he or she will believe dogmatically in the face of whatever is discovered by reason."

Are there no irrational secular or atheist people? Does irrational attachment need to have a body of inerrant, or otherwise sacred doctrine (like a bible or an Ann Rand?)

I do not believe that an explicit definition of principle is needed to articulate a concept of fundamentalist attachment. Anyone can have an irrational attachment to any idea, belief or world view. This phenomenon goes way beyond the subject of religion. You are just used to hearing the word in a religious context.

I'm sure there is at least one person in the world who is secular and very fundamentalist about her attachment to her world view. I would have simply pointed out that the label had a stereotyping quality that does not do justice to the diversity of secular humanity. Deciding that the label is an oxymoron is an arbitrary choice based on restricting the meaning of a term to only part of its semantic range.

Other Comments by dialector

32. Comment #88810 by Russell Blackford on November 19, 2007 at 2:51 am

Thanks for your courteous response, dialector.

I have a bit of a better sense of where you're coming from, now, but the trouble is that once you allow people to use words in some broad sense the precision of debate is destroyed, which is never helpful to the party of reason.

We criticise the fundies for being fundamentalist, in a quite narrow sense, with all that that sense implies. Next thing you know, it's tu quoque: we start hearing about how Richard Dawkins is also a "fundamentalist", that anyone who is passionately opposed to religion is a "fundamentalist", etc.

The point is that we oppose religious fundamentalism for quite precise reasons. If we lose track of those reasons, we'll lose track of why we are critical of fundamentalism in the first place, and we'll have no response when we are accused of being just as "fundamentalist".

And no, fundamentalist does not simply mean "irrational". The word for that is, well, "irrational". :)

It's a particular kind of irrationality.

I think it's important for people like Kelly to keep making such points, and I think it's unfair when they are then criticised as "semantic bluster".

What I will concede is that Kelly's point can be sharpened up a bit, in a way that can accommodate some of what you're saying, and I think my comment does that ... and see also here:

http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/2007/10/fundamentalism.html

But she's not only on the right side: she's making an essentially strong point, and her writing is getting better with each piece she produces. I've been impressed (more than I expected to be). It looks like she will end up being a very good voice for doubt and disbelief.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

33. Comment #88941 by mcadamsdj on November 19, 2007 at 7:56 am

 avatarhere, here Kelly (she's a bad ass)!

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34. Comment #126181 by the_ultimate_samurai on February 12, 2008 at 2:48 pm

im with sam harris on meditation personaly. ive found it quite usefull...you know how sometimes you have too many things going on in your head at one time...thinking on too many topics...by meditating you can silence those and focus on one thing.

also meditations is a nice way to order your thoughts and to relieve stress, can also help to improve your control over your emotions (so as not to be driven to do something irrational for them)

and i imagine most everyone wishes for a time the name atheist wouldnt be needed, like you dont need a name for all the other millions of things you dont believe in. but for now...its needed.

and he is correct that not all religions are equally bad, though all religions have that same element of non-thinking. but the amount of non-thinking practiced varies. and to some degree there are many things people take without reflecting on them, political affiliation is one that comes to mind.

taoism for instance places the virtue on the here and now and has no afterlife, it doesnt put virtue in acceptance without thinking, but serves as a rough outline for meditation on philosophical issues. budhism tends to be similar, though it has its unusual claims, you dont have people saying its 100% true, most take it as being nothing but euphemism, alagory, and parables. even the dedicated monks dont take it as true, nor the common man. and since it emphesised critical thinking of the religion, there are many different forms all teaching largly different things. but unlike christian sects...the budhists sects dont hate each other with a firey passion.

but that doesnt mean is is by default good, it is still somewhat dangerous to have any form of non-thinking. if there is anything more ironic than killing in the name of budha id like to hear it. but such things have happened.

but some religions just lend themselves better to violance than others...such as books which have kill, smash, destroy, rape, kill, kill, kill written in them like the abahamic religions.

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