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Friday, November 16, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document For the glory of God

by Dan Gardner, Ottawa Citizen

Thanks to rowed for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/opinion/story.html?id=5575dc5a-facb-49b6-abef-5041fc800f1d&p=1

Critics say the brand of literalist religion Richard Dawkins condemns is limited to a small minority of believers -- but in fact it's all too common

Gazing down from the 40th floor of a lower Manhattan skyscraper, Richard Dawkins shakes his head. "What a symbol," he growls.

In the evening drizzle, the city is a jungle of glitz and twinkling lights but Dawkins' attention is fixed on a flood-lit crater directly below us. It is Ground Zero, the footprint of the twin towers, still barren six years after the atrocity that made the world gasp. At the bottom of the vast hole, backhoes scrape into the night.

What does this symbolize, I ask? "Religious bigotry," he answers crisply. Not a twisted version of Islam. Not Islam as a whole. No, for the Oxford professor, biologist, renowned science writer, and author of the notorious bestseller The God Delusion, the void below is what religion itself hath wrought.

"The people who did this terrible thing were sincere, deeply religious, believed they were right, believed they were doing the will of their god, firmly believed they were going straight to heaven for doing what they thought of as a wonderful deed," Dawkins says. "They had just one thing wrong with them. They believed. They had faith. And it was their faith that drove them to it."

In New York to attend a conference on secularism sponsored by the Center for Inquiry, Dawkins has slipped out of what must be an exhausting reception with several hundred enthusiastic atheists. This evening, the heretic is a prophet and everyone wants to see him, to shake his hand and give thanks unto him. A British television crew records his every smile and nod. He could be forgiven for being a little distracted this evening.
But whatever one may think of the man dubbed "Darwin's Rottweiler," there's no denying the speed and precision of Dawkins' mind. Even harried like a royal on holiday, the man talks like a scalpel cuts.

"I wouldn't for a moment suggest the majority of people would do anything remotely so terrible, indeed anything terrible at all, but there is a logical pathway that leads from religious faith to doing the most appalling deeds." Accept that there is a God. Accept that He is involved in the world's affairs. Accept that the Bible or the Koran is His holy word. "Once you've got that in your head, then a reasonable person can progress step by step to the conclusion that the right thing to do, the righteous thing to do, is to destroy thousands of lives."

The God Delusion has already sold 1.5 million copies, a particularly astonishing accomplishment given that the book market is crowded with broadsides on religion. Sam Harris was first out with The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation, while Christopher Hitchens' God Is Not Great had a long run high on the New York Times best-seller list. The coincidence of these publishing successes has led the three men to be dubbed the "new atheists." It has also generated the most sustained discussion of religion and its place in society for decades, including a flurry of counter-attacks against Dawkins and his fellow prophets.

Almost invariably, the first volley is aimed at style. These atheists are nasty, it is said. Their language is crude, even vicious. This is a particularly serious charge for Dawkins, as esteemed Oxford professors are simply not supposed to do that sort of thing.

Dawkins scoffs. "The bits of my book which are described as intemperate, ranting, strident or shrill, they're moderate when compared to the sort of language any of us use, whether we're talking about politics or a terrible play we've seen or a terrible piece of music. It's just that religion has been accustomed to getting a free ride and therefore even moderate criticism sounds strident if it's criticism of religion."

Religion hasn't always been exempt from scrutiny and even the briefest tour of commentary on the subject will turn up gems such as Friedrich Nietzsche complaining that "I find it necessary to wash my hands after I have come into contact with religious people," and Émile Zola declaring the perfection of civilization will be at hand when "the last stone from the last church falls on the last priest!" Voltaire described Christianity as "the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that has ever infected the world." Tennessee Williams saw in the God of Western mythology a "senile delinquent." David Hume called prevailing religious principles "sick men's dreams." Next to this litany of provocations and calumnies, Dawkins' language is only a little more inflammatory than the Queen's.

A more substantive response to the new atheists is somewhat related to the first. "When believers pick up Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens," said Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, in a recent address, "we may feel as we turn the pages: 'This is not it. Whatever the religion being attacked here, it's not actually what I believe in'."

The new atheists' view of religion is far too crude, critics say. They ignore the fine and subtle thoughts of great theologians and dwell instead on literal readings of holy books, divine intervention, miracles, fundamentalism, televangelists, terrorists and other fringe elements. "Only religious nutcases take the Creation story literally," wrote Salley Vickers in The Times of London. Most Christians are well aware that the Bible is "a miscellany of stories, letters, polemic, histories, fables and certainly some great moral teachings, as well as some outmoded and unacceptable social prejudices. Therefore it is perfectly reasonable to 'pick and choose' when reading the Bible, something that Dawkins takes Christians to task for."

The odd thing about this criticism is that it is itself so out of touch with reality. In Gallup surveys asking Americans about the creationist account of human origins -- that "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years" -- four in 10 said it was "definitely true," while another one in four said it was "probably true." Only 31 per cent thought it probably or definitely false.

Gallup also asked about the nature of the Bible, offering one of three possible responses: "the Bible is the actual word of God and is to be taken literally, word for word"; it is "the inspired word of God but not everything in it should be taken literally"; and, "the Bible is an ancient book of fables, legends, history and moral precepts recorded by man."

Only 15 per cent of Americans agreed with that last statement. Almost half said the Bible is the inspired word of God, while one-third said every blessed word comes from the Lord's own ballpoint pen. Given that the Bible condones genocide, slavery and a system of justice the Taliban would find a little harsh, one suspects that the Archbishop of Canterbury and the other theologians with fine and subtle thoughts are considerably outnumbered by those who prefer their religion to be a touch more old school.

And don't think this is a uniquely American affliction. Gallup found that only 29 per cent of Canadians identified the Bible as a book of stories written by fellow humans. Half said it is divinely inspired, while 17 per cent said every word in the Bible is sacred and must be read literally.

And this, of course, is to say nothing of faith in the Muslim world, which we can reasonably assume tilts heavily to literalism, not least because, in many Muslim countries, asserting that the Koran is an "ancient book of fables, legends, history and moral precepts recorded by man" can get one killed.

Faith exists on a spectrum. At one end are atheists like Dawkins who say they'll take a look at whatever evidence anyone cares to offer but they will not believe that which is not proven. A little further over are the folks who may see valuable moral instruction in religion but whose sense of reality is similar to what was called "deism" in the 18th century: There exists a creator of things but rather than a bearded old man on a throne who smites unbelievers, he is more like -- to use the classic metaphor -- the watchmaker who set his creation in motion and does not interfere with its operation.

Atheists don't agree with deists, but Dawkins and the other new atheists have almost nothing to say about them. A god who does not intervene in the world does not write books -- not even with the help of ghost writers -- and cannot inspire mischief.

Further along the spectrum, we come to the many variations of an interventionist God. In moderate form, it typically involves a vague belief that God somehow inspired the Bible -- although not the nasty bits about killing homosexuals, enslaving enemies, punishing sons for the sins of their fathers, or anything else that grates on the sensibilities of the moment. Miracles are possible, in this view, but only in the distant past -- thus avoiding blatant contradiction between scientific observation and faith in the present.

And finally, there is the muscular version of the interventionist God, the one who penned the Bible -- or the Koran, if you prefer -- and who delights in fiddling with the world in ways that defy all reason. In a side street next to the hole in the ground that was the Twin Towers, there is a monument to this brand of faith.

crossIt is, says a plaque, "The Cross at Ground Zero" -- steel beams in the shape of a cross discovered amid the wreckage. Workers wept on discovering it. A miracle, they said. A Catholic priest blessed it. It is "a sign of comfort for all," the plaque says.

Of course, if this claim is true, then God is a Christian God, which really can't be such a comfort for billions of non-Christians, including the families of the many Jews, Muslims and atheists killed in the attacks. One might also think it strange that the omniscient and omnipotent God who thrust his hand into the collapsing tower to leave his calling card couldn't be bothered to thrust it back in and save a life or two. And is it really impressive that a section of steel beam in the shape of a cross was found following the collapse of thousands of interconnected steel beams? A Star of David would have been quite impressive, but probability alone can explain crosses.

This sort of faith is little more than crude superstition and I suspect that it makes thoughtful believers like the Archbishop of Canterbury wince. But much as the archbishop and atheists alike may wish it to be fringe, it's not. The sidewalk beside "The Cross of Ground Zero" is constantly filled with people gazing in awe at a hunk of scrap metal. This is what faith is for countless people.

They all stand on Richard Dawkins' "logical pathway." Accept that there is a God, that He intervenes in the world, and that a book speckled with cruelty and hatred is His doing, and it becomes possible to move along the spectrum, step by step, to ever-more extreme and irrational conclusions.

The Dalai Lama recently said that all religions teach compassion and belief only becomes a problem when believers are "not really serious, not sincere." This, it seems to me, is exactly backwards. It is precisely those believers who are most sincere and most serious who travel furthest along religion's logical pathway. One can say many unkind things about the men who flew airplanes into skyscrapers, but give them their due: They were profoundly serious and sincere.

Across from Ground Zero, in the tiny cemetery of St. Paul's chapel, there is a bell given by the people of London on the first anniversary of 9/11. "For the greater glory of God," the inscription begins. When I tell Dawkins this, he shakes his head and points to the ground far below.

"It was precisely for the greater glory of God that that terrible deed was done," he says.


Dan Gardner writes Wednesday, Friday and Saturday.
E-mail: dgardner@thecitizen.canwest.com

Comments 1 - 50 of 138 |

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1. Comment #88416 by PaulJ on November 16, 2007 at 2:17 pm

 avatarWhen I saw Ground Zero for the first time, I was quite taken with that steel cross. But I didn't see it as any kind of miracle - I assumed that it was simply a piece of the building remains that someone had erected as a symbol. Hardly surprising to find such a thing in the wreckage - there must have been dozens of them.

(My recollection of the cross is that it was covered with inscriptions.)

Other Comments by PaulJ

2. Comment #88417 by Daksian on November 16, 2007 at 2:20 pm

I find myself privileged to live in Ottawa and get the Citizen every day, where I can enjoy articles like this one from Dan Gardner. He is an excellent counterpoint to the blind rhetoric of David Warren.

I love how Gardner presents his arguments...clear and logical and not even particularly provacative--it is almost casual in delivery, as if he is simply pointing out self-evident truth (which, in fact, he is).

I am distressed by the figures for Canada; I suspect that the more ignorant mindsets are more prevalent in the West (where I have had the misfortune to live from time to time), where there is widespread bible-thumping. These concentrations make the rest of Canada look bad.

Other Comments by Daksian

3. Comment #88419 by debaser71 on November 16, 2007 at 2:22 pm

"Faith exists on a spectrum. At one end are atheists like Dawkins who say they'll take a look at whatever evidence anyone cares to offer but they will not believe that which is not proven."

Do words not actually mean anything? Anyway otherwise an ok article.

Other Comments by debaser71

4. Comment #88420 by SilentMike on November 16, 2007 at 2:28 pm

Well what do you know? A non-hostile report. That's nice.

There may be some hope yet.

Other Comments by SilentMike

5. Comment #88422 by The_Stone on November 16, 2007 at 2:36 pm

 avatarIf America cannot reverse this unreason, it will end up being the the janitors and house servants of the former third-world. What a waste.

Other Comments by The_Stone

6. Comment #88423 by Duff on November 16, 2007 at 2:42 pm

The Dalai Lama (it should be Llama) says that the believers that do these sort of things are "not sincere". They are the most sincere believers there are. They are true believers. The worst kind. Spare us from the true believers in all their permutations and stripes! Would it be too much to ask for a pox on all true believers?

Other Comments by Duff

7. Comment #88424 by gr_man on November 16, 2007 at 2:43 pm

Comment #88417

Daksian: I think I will take offence to your extreme misunderstanding of Canadian people as they relate to geographical location. I have had the HONOUR of living all across this country and being born in the west and I can say unequivocably that religious stupidity is no more rampant out here in the west than it is in Ottawa or anywhere else in the east. What you said is equally ridiculous to the claims of the religious people and their god, and your bigotry is more appaling. I am ashamed that a fellow Canadian would take that view of others...you should be ashamed of yourself!

Other Comments by gr_man

8. Comment #88425 by Socrates on November 16, 2007 at 2:45 pm

 avatarI wrote this brief letter to the Ottawa Citizen in response:

Re: For the glory of God, Nov. 15 (page A17).

Thank goodness we Canadians have a lucid and candid writer like Dan Gardner to write about religion. In the Muslim world, what Westerns would classify as "fundamentalists" are the overwhelming majority.

According to a Pew Global poll conducted this year, 39% of Muslims in Mali see suicide bombings as either sometimes or often justified. In Nigeria, it's 42%. In the Palestinian territories, it's 70%. With the increasing availability of nuclear weapons technology, Islam presents us with a global emergency. I'm sure God would find nothing more glorious than a mushroom cloud.

Other Comments by Socrates

9. Comment #88435 by SRWB on November 16, 2007 at 3:42 pm

Daksian,

I too live in Ottawa and agree with Gardner's take on this issue. He has written at least three sound articles on this topic in the last year or so. Warren, in contrast, is a bigoted idiot who likes to stir up shit. Recently he wrote a couple of articles directly attacking Dawkins as deluded while holding up Michael Behe and Alister McGrath as credible defenders for the theists! Not convincing in the least.

gr_man,

Whoa - I think you need to lighten up a little! Are you suggesting that the west, Alberta in particular, is not more prone to religious belief? I think the stats would show otherwise.

Other Comments by SRWB

10. Comment #88436 by savagemickey on November 16, 2007 at 3:48 pm

You only have to look at the crowds of people who are ooohing and aaaahing at Ken Ham's coconut eating T-Rex to know that the christianity that Dawkins is critiquing is very widespread.

Other Comments by savagemickey

11. Comment #88438 by kaiserkriss on November 16, 2007 at 4:18 pm

 avatarDaksian: You have gone too far with your sweeping statements about the enlightened east and the ignorant west. If you must play bigoted regional politics, do it elsewhere, but not in a forum that set up to be a "clear thinking oasis".

With a relatively large, University educated urban population, you might be surprised that at least in the urban areas, especially with the younger age groups, bible thumping is about as popular as swim wear at minus 40C.

Just like elsewhere, the squeaky wheel gets the oil and press in the west. Religion is just too far down on most people's priority list to worry about most of the time. jcw

Other Comments by kaiserkriss

12. Comment #88440 by athegan on November 16, 2007 at 4:38 pm

 avatar
The Dalai Lama recently said that all religions teach compassion and belief only becomes a problem when believers are "not really serious, not sincere."


One wonders if the "sincere" version of religion he is talking about is that of people who tend to leave behind any parts of their religion that becomes inconsistent with the time and place they live in. Don't they see that provided enough time (if there fundamentalists don't destroy everything) every religion will become history eventually if that version is to be adhered to?

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13. Comment #88451 by hughlomas on November 16, 2007 at 5:57 pm

and Émile Zola declaring the perfection of civilization will be at hand when "the last stone from the last church falls on the last priest!"


This quote is strongly reminiscent of the quote below, made a century earlier:

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." -Denis Diderot


Other Comments by hughlomas

14. Comment #88453 by phasmagigas on November 16, 2007 at 6:06 pm

 avatar'A Star of David would have been quite impressive, but probability alone can explain crosses.'

i love it.

lets play jack straws and see 100's of miracles.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

15. Comment #88454 by phasmagigas on November 16, 2007 at 6:13 pm

 avatara religiously inspired nuclear conflagration could wipe out half the worlds population and leave the biosphere in tatters and people would still look for crosses in the inferno, maybe the 'believe what your parents tell you' genes mean that any intelligent beings will always have the disease called belief where ever they are in the universe.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

16. Comment #88462 by Ashley1319 on November 16, 2007 at 7:57 pm

I don't know about Canada's religious climate, but America tends to be divided along geographical lines. The north is where the moderates are, the south is where the bible thumpers are. Really, this is not at all exaggerating. The south tends to breed ignorance and superstition, and is the base camp of evangelical movements. In my small town alone, there are about a dozen protestant churches, and one tiny catholic church. I even saw a street preacher near Walmart the other day, his little child holding up a sign condemning people to hell. I was quite furious.

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17. Comment #88468 by Veronique on November 16, 2007 at 10:26 pm

 avatarI am reading Tamas Pataki's Against Religion at the moment. I commend it to everyone. His is a different take on religion and well worth adding to the stable of books that critique religion. Published in Australia by Scribe Books – scribepublications.com.au.

Starting from a very low base in the USA at the turn of the nineteenth century, there are now more than 500 million Pentecostals worldwide*1. Reports also suggest growth of religious confession in the Muslim and Hindu worlds. According to John Haldane, 'the religious outnumber the agnostics and atheists by four to one'.*2

*1 McGrath The Twilight of Atheism, 2004, p.195
*2 Haldane An Intelligent Person's Guide to Religion, 2005, p.23


I like Dan Gardner's writings. I consider him a sane reporter of issues at hand. I have no wish to get involved in the perceived religiosity of a particular area of Canada, Australia, Europe or wherever.

500 million!! I have no reason to doubt McGrath's figures, unless someone can provide properly evidenced, statistically standardised polls to the contrary. Wake up you lot. This number must be growing exponentially.

Regional tiffs aside, we are facing a burgeoning growth in irrationality. The people on this side of the pond are deliberately facing up to people on the other side of the pond and, I have to say, the number of Muslims, on the other side of the pond, committed to world-wide conversion and theocracy frighten the shit out of me.

This is not a theological argument held in the hallowed halls of Oxford by over weight, over fed academics; it is being mounted by people who do not think theologically, but have an unshakeable ideology that their particular God is right.

So far as Muslims are concerned, Mohammed wrote the last 'inspired' word of God, long after the Jesus cult got going. The Muslims discount Christianity as having been outclassed and updated by the Koran and Hadith.

So far as Christians are concerned, the Book of Revelations predicts what will happen at the 'end of times', provided the stipulated Revelations' criteria are met. And they are trying their damnedest to hasten the fulfilment of those criteria.

This shit is not going away soon. As part of that 25% of agnostics and atheists, I have grave concerns that go way beyond regional partisan alliances.

I beg you to stop bickering about your own particular areas and their adherents to one cult or another. This is a massive problem. Please focus on the common enemy of unreason and superstitious religious dogma and get out there and do things to draw in the fence sitters by alerting them to the dangers. 25% is not enough to combat the encroaching new Dark Age and potential theocracies that threaten reason and science.

We need to move and move fast. My neighbour thinks that the second coming is likely to happen within his lifetime (he's 69!!), What about the Ken Hams of this world (an Aussie export – how embarrassing!)? What about the televangelists and the radical mullahs? This spread of radical religious fervour throughout the world has a base of religious dominionism that threatens to engulf us.

Whew – end of rant. Sorry, but you get my drift:-).
V

Other Comments by Veronique

18. Comment #88471 by TheCelestialTeapot on November 16, 2007 at 11:39 pm

Wow! What an excellent article!

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19. Comment #88486 by JFHalsey on November 17, 2007 at 3:33 am

An excellent article, and very true. Only three years ago I was one of those religious nutcases who believed the world was less than 10,000 years old and that every word in the bible came from ol'Yahweh's mouth. It's an oppressive, stifling worldview in which no dissent or logical reasoning or shadow of a doubt is allowed. And though my beliefs would not have led me to murder or to strap bombs to my chest, christianity taken 100% literally is still mortally dangerous. I shudder to think what might have happened to my children had they contracted a serious illness when I was still taking the New Testament's word on Faith Healing seriously.

Other Comments by JFHalsey

20. Comment #88492 by RSP123 on November 17, 2007 at 4:39 am

 avatar'..."Only religious nutcases take the Creation story literally," wrote Salley Vickers in The Times of London..."'

There are gazillions of nutcases around then.

As Sam Harris says, rather than just wail at them all, we should start exposing religious cant and hypocrisy by homing in on the stupidest ideas, and especially by pitting these people against each other. They usually believe different - and often fatally contradictory - things, so this shouldn't be too difficult, and besides, they don't listen to arguments from anyone labeled "Atheist". And think of the opportunities for getting nice, moderate religious believers to attack their more fundamentalist brethren who inhabit the darker stretches of Dawkins's "logical pathway". These "moderates" must be made to plant their poles in the sand: just where, exactly, does mild-mannered moderate faith end and fundamentalism begin? Which are the "ridiculous" ideas in their system, and which are "respectable"? Who decides? On what authority?

Nonsense belief systems (religious or political) can't be defeated en masse. They must be dismantled one stone at a time. Moreover, many of those who languish in the warm bath of delusion will need to be treated gently when they emerge into the chill of reality - the shock can be tremendous. Let's demolish bad ideas wherever we find them, as Harris says, but let's also look after those whose ideological homes we bulldoze.

Other Comments by RSP123

21. Comment #88495 by Logicel on November 17, 2007 at 5:27 am

 avatarRSP123 wrote: ...but let's also look after those whose ideological homes we bulldoze.
_______

RAmen. A very important point--not that secularism should replace religious beliefs, but that we need to be welcoming to the de-converted. This site does a bit in that direction, in the forums, there is an official welcoming feature. I encourage everyone here to welcome newcomers to our discussions. It matters.

Other Comments by Logicel

22. Comment #88497 by Ian on November 17, 2007 at 5:40 am

The Dali Llama suffers from something that afflicts most of us, most of the time: the assumption that we are mediocre or representative of our type.

Although even Buddhism has had its moments of questionable moral behaviour, the Buddha taught that compassion should not be restricted to Buddhists and is given very high priority. The most highly regarded humans are called Bodhisattva - those who have delayed their attainment of Nirvana in order to help others.

To be a sincere Buddhist, you have to be compassionate and since the Dali Llama thinks all religions are like Buddhism, any religious person must be compassionate.

The Dali Llama reckons without Islam. The word Islam means peace through submission. Muslims want something called tawhid(unity) where everything is governed according to Islamic principles where the umma(Muslims) take precedence over dhimmis (Christians and Jews) and the rest of us(kafirs).

It is therfore internally logical for a Muslim to treat non-muslims as second class citizens and so the failure of compassion is endemic to Islam. Although Muslims will say compassion is important to them, it is given far less importance in Islam and restricted to the umma.

In my opinion, the principle whereby compassion is not restricted to members of an ingroup provides a rational criterion for judging whether a religion is civilised or not, with Buddhism passing the test and Islam failing.

Other Comments by Ian

23. Comment #88499 by wagnerpe on November 17, 2007 at 6:07 am

This is an excellent article. Right up there with "Those fanatical atheists" in my book.

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24. Comment #88505 by shemp333 on November 17, 2007 at 6:49 am

 avatarAn excellent article indeed. I like the way he let Dawkins' quotes define the opinion of the piece. He just reported on it without too much injection of his own. Nice journalistic style; and Dawkins definitely knows what he's talking a boot. (Sorry, couldn't help myself)

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25. Comment #88523 by D'Arcy on November 17, 2007 at 10:20 am

 avatar
The new atheists' view of religion is far too crude, critics say. They ignore the fine and subtle thoughts of great theologians and dwell instead on literal readings of holy books, divine intervention, miracles, fundamentalism, televangelists, terrorists and other fringe elements


It always amuses me how the believers move the target when the arrows are getting too close. Rowan Williams, the archbishop of cant, may well be a clever man, but the defence that "That's not my religion that Dawkins is criticising", is wearing very thin. Williams has his own problems in the CoE. Earlier, this year during the record wet summer, the Bishop of Carlisle blamed the subsequent floods on the sinfulness of the Brits, particularly homosexuals. God was apparently letting us know that we were going astray.

When this story made it into the mainstream media, the bishop's representative had to try to extricate him from looking ridiculous in most people's eyes. Apparently his views had been "misinterpreted" or were taken "out of context", or similar type excuses.

If God does intervene by flooding sinners (as is claimed for Noah), then there must be a lot more sinners in Bangladesh than there are in England!

Other Comments by D'Arcy

26. Comment #88534 by poppythinks on November 17, 2007 at 1:31 pm

 avatarmost excellent piece of journalism by dan gardner.
lucky ottowa.

Other Comments by poppythinks

27. Comment #88557 by troodon on November 17, 2007 at 7:07 pm

Daksian,

I'm not sure what you expect to accomplish with your comments on "the more ignorant mindsets" from the west. Besides, that claim doesn't stand up to scrutiny. By recent surveys, Quebec is the least religious province followed by BC and Alberta. Sure, in Alberta we have a creation museum and the Miracle Channel, but Ontario has David Warren, Denyse O'Leary, Charles McVety and the gang of Muslims who were foiled in their plans to behead the prime minister and blow up the Parliament. Fortunately there are also clear thinkers like Dan Gardner right across the country.

We're all in this battle together. Spouting off about about the west embarrassing Ontario does no good, especially when the statistics show that it's BS.

Other Comments by troodon

28. Comment #88572 by OneNationUnderThor on November 17, 2007 at 10:42 pm

 avatarI'm sorry, but I have to correct the misstatements about western Canada being more religious. It simply isn't true. The newest numbers from Stats Canada for religion (2001) aren't hard to find.

The overall percentage for "no religion" in Canada is 16.2. The western provinces are Manitoba at 18.3%, Saskatchewan at 15.4%, Alberta at 23.1%, and the wonderfully liberal British Columbia comes in at 35.1%. All of them above average except for Saskatchewan. Ontario is 16.0% and Quebec is 5.6%.

Other Comments by OneNationUnderThor

29. Comment #88596 by JamesDB on November 18, 2007 at 2:13 am

 avatarheh Im a little happy by the whole Liberal British Columbia being from that part of the world. I hope that this isn't a classic case of the ontario people who love to think that its the best part of canada crap.
Those numbers are somewhat hard to believe based on the number of churches in the town i live in. With a population of about 20,000 there are 4 churches and one hall for jehova's witnesses.(one of the churches is baptist and its quite large, its where the highschool has its graduation ceremonies(purely for the seating capacity))
How do we rid ourselves of this ignorance

Other Comments by JamesDB

30. Comment #88607 by keith on November 18, 2007 at 3:09 am

 avatarTroodon says that Quebec is the least religious province in Canada whereas OneNationUnderThor puts the 'No religion' number for Quebec at 5%. Which is right?

The whole debate is starting to sound a little like Kazakhstan versus Uzbekhistan.

Other Comments by keith

31. Comment #88640 by Cerberus on November 18, 2007 at 7:47 am

I believe that Trondon is righ, Quebec is the least religious province in Canada, followed very closely by BC according to several polls. The census stats are not exactly accurate. In Quebec, most people, even though they are atheist, will say they are catholics, but many of them mean "culturally catholic". I know it's the same thing for many people in Ontario as well.

In Quebec, in a poll form 2005, 32% said they did not beleive in a god and this year, in another poll, 40% in Quebec said they believed humans evolved without the help of a god.

Also, according to a poll from 2005, Quebec in BC were the places were people said religion had the least importance in their lives, so it would seems that many of the religious people are not very religious (that's the way it is in Quebec anyway).

Other Comments by Cerberus

32. Comment #88645 by OneNationUnderThor on November 18, 2007 at 8:59 am

 avatarI got my numbers from the Stats Canada 2001 census (the last time they did religion--they'll do it again in 2011) look them up yourself: www.statcan.ca -> by subject -> society and community -> religion. It may be that Quebec is least religious, but when asked to identify what religion they are they respond Catholic.

Cerberus is right when he talks about people being "culturally" a religion, but actually completely non-religious. In Quebec, it is probably more to do with maintaining their cultural identity than any sort of god (they are very sensitive about that there--edit: cultural identity not god). One of the newer 2005 polls that I could find was the Ipsos-Reid that talked about how important god/religion was, and Quebec probably did very well on this (from our perspective), but so did BC. Hopefully the 2011 comprehensive census will show the kind of progress we are making.

So it is entirely possible that although fewer people identity with a religion in a place like Alberta, the ones who do are more likely to be hardcore fundamentalists.

It is probably best to look at the progress that has been made in Canada (newest numbers show actual church attendance at 17-18%). The important thing in Canada is to normalize non-belief to the point where those who say "I am not religious and don't go to church, but I still belief in some vague, magical, spiritual higher power" can just leave off the second half of that sentence.

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33. Comment #88657 by Cerberus on November 18, 2007 at 12:03 pm

In Quebec, it is probably more to do with maintaining their cultural identity than any sort of god


Actually, it depends which generation you are, people from around my age (I'm 25), won't say they are catholic if they don't believe in a god (and for the record, people my age in Quebec who are not atheists are a minority), they will say they are atheists. People from the same generation of my parents however, will usually say they are catholics, but it's mostly a question of habit.

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34. Comment #88677 by Eric Blair on November 18, 2007 at 1:31 pm

Surveys on religious faith always seem to be unreliable. To me, "snap-shot" polls are less useful than those showing trends over 5 or more years. I would also be more interested in studies that relate these numbers to every-day life activities and specific issues (birth control, premarital sex, gay marriage, abortion, etc.)

And there's the anecdotal daily-life test, unreliable by definition but still of some significance: Does religion intrude in any way on your daily life?

I live in Winnipeg (which is supposedly more religious than, say, Toronto or Montreal, where I have also lived) and interact with people of all ages (mainly "Christian" by cultural history):

- I have little sense of who goes to church and who doesn't. It just doesn't come up, except on rare occasions when people mention something they are doing for their church, just as they might refer to a social club.

- It's becoming more common for co-workers' aging relatives, including parents, to die and to hear condolences passed on. I have never heard anyone say anything vaguely religious, like : "Well, they're in a better place now." More common, "At least they didn't suffer long." And people are even more likely to say "We're thinking about you" than "We're praying for you" or the like.

- These are just two small observations. But in my experience of Canadian society over 30-plus years, Canadians -- whatever their personal beliefs may be -- accept and support that public life is primarily secular.

- I realize this may not square with others' experiences. I would like to hear what kinds of experiences others have had. I'm speaking of activities in the political sphere, public schools, community organizations and workplaces -- not with friends or family.

EB

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35. Comment #88678 by clunkclickeverytrip on November 18, 2007 at 1:32 pm

I'm also an Ottawa dweller and a fan of Gardner's efforts in the Citizen. I'd like to propose an Ottawa Chapter of RD.net members - OK, never mind a Chapter, how about a beer? I'd like to contemplate the phrase "think globally, act locally" with some like-minded people.

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36. Comment #88725 by DavidJMH on November 18, 2007 at 5:06 pm

Ladies and Gentlemen,
How did this off topic BS about America's 51st State get in here (for those of you who don't believe Canada is America's 51st State, over 85% of the Canadian economy is directly dependent upon the US). The subject is Dawkin's view of religion and it's evil bigotry no matter how benign most of it's followers may appear.
I have a number of colleagues at work, all supposedly reasonably intellegent, educated people who make up the 40% the Archbishop of Canterbury denies exist. Every single one of them believes in ID, their ancestors were put on Earth 10k years ago intact and if pushed, would shoot anyone in the name of God who contradicts them. These are nice ordinary people for the most part but they really are insane.
People, we are surrounded by nutcases and they look just like you and me, not a raghead in sight.
Yours sincerely, David J. Millea-Hunt.

Other Comments by DavidJMH

37. Comment #88751 by TylerJames on November 18, 2007 at 10:36 pm

 avatar@DavidJMH

What a ridiculous comment to make about Canada. Canada and the U.S. are eachother's largest trading partners and the majority of oil imported by the US is from Canada.

And if Canada is the 51st state then we're the only state not participating in the ridiculous Iraq war.

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38. Comment #88753 by kraut on November 18, 2007 at 11:05 pm

(for those of you who don't believe Canada is America's 51st State, over 85% of the Canadian economy is directly dependent upon the US)

I guess being an atheist doesn't prevent one from making idotic statements.
Just because the US does rely on a greater extend than ever on the products of our oilsands (less so on timber, since the US govt. so nicely helped to create the subprime crisis by deregulation) doesn't mean we support all their stupidities. We did support one - follow them to afghanistan, that one was bad enough.


And to remind one: the mujahaddin which morphed into the taliban were not supported by the US government because of religious reasons - oh no, they thought - wrong again - that those guys would play nice after having kicked the russians out, a purely secular decision.

And one should also remember that a clear money trail from the pakistan secret service (ISI) exists to Mr. Atta. So, now it is pakistan, playing nice - for how long? And that a clear link to another partner, not for religious reasons exist, where over 90% of the "suicide bombers" hailed from. And that - for no religious reasons, a certain Mr. Bin Laden of a very influential Saudi family was supported by the US for a very long time.
And that in the end I doubt very much that religion had anything to do with those bombings - none at all actually, when you watch the evidence as to especially Mr. Atta (the bomber in chief) in a long documentary by the CBC several yaers ago, who wasn't very religious at all.

What I find most disconcerting about atheists: In their fervour to fault religions with all the worlds sins, they overlook that the majority of the conflicts only have religious connotations - for public consumption, that in reality it is power politices that are behind - the best example: the thirty year war in europe, which was a conflict between the power of the kaiser and the cravings of the kurfuersten to run their own show.

They also claim that "conspiracy theorists" are deluded, when the biggest conspiracy stares them right in the face: the de-democratization of the USA following the so called religious attacks on 9/11, and the BIG LIE which massaged the american public to approve the invasion and occupation of iraq, still 100% supported by the war mongerer Mr. Hitchens - who would have made an excellent propaganda minister instead of Goebbels. Oh no - the gevernment tell no lies, those are claims by nutcases. Oh no, the government doesn't want to erode civil liberties with the homeland security act, those are claims by nut cases, oh no, there is no torture administered by americans - we only counsel syria, azerbeijan et al how to do it properly.

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39. Comment #88757 by Diacanu on November 18, 2007 at 11:48 pm

 avatar(Singing as dude from the band Chicago)

We did it all for the glooooory of Gaaawwwwd!!

Just like a knight in shining armor! From a long time ago!!
Just in time I will save the day!!
Take you to my cas-tle far awaaaaayyy!!!

There, now you'll all have it stuck in your head every time you read the topic headline too.
Spreading the love.
*Evil grin*

Other Comments by Diacanu

40. Comment #88758 by kraut on November 18, 2007 at 11:59 pm

"We did it all for the glooooory of Gaaawwwwd!!"

That is exactly what a government wants you to believe - obfuscation to hide the big game behind. Which is: getting hold of power, eliminating democracy because in a future world where severe climate disruption, oil and foodshortage will reign, drought will be commonplace in the at present agricultural productive regions - they can only effectively (in their mind) govern if such niceties as public participation has been done away with.
Remember - the plans to attack iraq,the homelandsecurity act, the dream of the New American Millenium as outlined by pearl, wolvowitz and cheney in 1998 - where there before the attacks. They happened just at an extremely convenient time, to give the president and his gang enough time for implementation before he finally had to leave the office.

Atheists fall into the same: its all the fault of religion stuff, when it is in reality about who wields what power.
Get excited about religion, but do not forget - its just a front, and you participate in the fraud by doing so.

Other Comments by kraut

41. Comment #88762 by kraut on November 19, 2007 at 12:23 am

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO110A.html

If you do not believe, that for a long time muslim radicals have been financed - and still are, just look at saudi arabia - for reasons of power politics, check with this ottawa resident.

No, there is no conspiracy to aid and abbett 9/11 by the US government - directly. But those who did it were trained, financed by Pakistan, financed by the CIA, in camps originally established with the help of the US.
And now in Kosovo: the US again supports the establishment, against any UN rules by cutting away a part of an independent and sovereign country, Serbia, of an in essence muslim state.

Is it willful ignorance, stupidity or deep cunning?

Other Comments by kraut

42. Comment #88765 by Veronique on November 19, 2007 at 12:30 am

 avatarWill you please stop rabbiting on about the secularity or not of Canada's provinces!! Are you incapable of seeing the bigger picture? Who gives a shit whether Ontario is more secular than Quebec or any other county? Who gives a damn? This is bigger than any regional conflict, real or perceived. Get out there and talk, talk and talk.

Get a grip for gravy's sake!! This is a massive problem that threatens all of us. I have very disillusioned friends who are quite accepting that we will be annihilated within 20 years. That attitude horrifies me. But there's not much I can summon for my defence. This acceptance of our potential annihilation distresses me no end.

What am I to do? Lie down and be subsumed by a new dark age? Or do I fight to try to stop this maniacal theological bullshit from coming to its imagined (and desired) fruition? Am I being paranoid about an eventual outcome? Am I frightening myself because of the stated desires for outcomes that pit one group against another (to the death)?

I would like someone to calm me down. Can you do it? Can you help me understand that my fears are imaginary? That I have gone over the edge? That everything is hunky dory and I am tilting at imaginary windmills?

Am I being stupid and should I indulge in philosophical meanderings in an attempt to ameliorate my very present misgivings?

Steve Zara – you are a calm and considered person and Epeeist – you have a wonderful sense of satire and sarcasm. Can either or both of you make me feel better about our future?

Benway and Lauregon, can you help me to stay calm in the face of this appalling world disintegration?

I, obviously, need another drink:-)
V

Other Comments by Veronique

43. Comment #88766 by MutantXPhilip1978 on November 19, 2007 at 12:37 am

 avatarV
As long as there is alcohol and Tea, our future is set to be safe, dont worry! :)

Mutant Philip

Other Comments by MutantXPhilip1978

44. Comment #88767 by kraut on November 19, 2007 at 12:47 am

"Or do I fight to try to stop this maniacal theological bullshit from coming to its imagined (and desired) fruition?"

IT IS NOT ABOUT RELIGION, STUPID.
It is about who wields POWER. Dont you get it? Religion is a fucking front, follow the money trail.

Why do you think american presidents helped muslim radicals over the last twenty or so years - if things go fine - everything is fine. If it goes wrong - blame it on religion, the muslims.

Sure, their religion is nasty - as is the christian, deep to the core. But religion is a tool.
Who do you think wields the power, when less than one percent of the population own over 60% of a countries wealth? Sure - conspiracy, proclaims the atheist idiot. If you are going to be atheist, be sceptical - and especially towards those who wield the power and are in the process of gaining all.

Muslims are a front, to do away with democracy - or did you hear any of the democratic contenders in the US talk about recinding homeland security one and two, the law to rob everybody of any assets who can be accused of supporting a "terrosist organization", the terrorism as defined by the homeland security office or any other government department, or to do away with any of the laws permitting secret detention?

How stupid really is this assembly of so called atheists - or is it that atheists are by nature are only sceptical towards the red cloth of religion, but are completely trusting a government that had lied over and over again? How stupid, dense and blind, really?

Other Comments by kraut

45. Comment #88769 by Quetzalcoatl on November 19, 2007 at 12:51 am

 avatarPhilip, is that you? I TOLD you to stay away from Billy's cloning vats, now look what's happened!

Veronique- have another drink. Remember that during the height of the Cold War, many were convinced that annihilation was imminent, but the world came through it. Perhaps now another potential conflict looms, but it is as yet nowhere near CW scale.

There is a lot of theological bullshit out there, but increasingly the other end of the scale is being balanced out by an outpouring of atheists, secularists and even moderate religious who realise what a threat fundamentalist religion poses. You have the right idea when you say to get out there and talk, talk, talk. Increasingly, secularists are standing up and speaking out, and that's exactly what should be done. The future's not ruined yet. Keep talking, keep fighting. Even if your contribution is simply exchanging views on the web (like mine is, essentially) or posting things on a billboard outside your house, keep doing something. That's all any of us can do.

That's my opinion, anyway.

EDIT- Kraut, please don't call people stupid.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

46. Comment #88771 by Goldy on November 19, 2007 at 12:57 am

Bloody Hell, Philip - if that's what tea does to you I'm keeping well clear! As it is, I found chamomile gave me heart palpitations and shortness of breath. Alcoholic bevvies only from now on!
V, nothing to worry about. China's on the rise, they'll be the next bogeyman, religion will be forgotten and...oh, sod it! We'll be drinking the cursed tea!
New grandchild, did I read you once writing about? Wonder what that wee mite'll be ranting about when it's your age? :-)

Other Comments by Goldy

47. Comment #88781 by Diacanu on November 19, 2007 at 1:49 am

 avatarHuh, can't get comments to appear on this one.

Other Comments by Diacanu

48. Comment #88783 by Quetzalcoatl on November 19, 2007 at 1:55 am

 avatarDiacanu- you can post comments. To view them, you have to log out then try. If that doesn't work, click on the article itself rather than under the ten latest comments. That's the only way I could tell what you just commented on.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

49. Comment #88786 by Diacanu on November 19, 2007 at 2:03 am

 avatarThanks, it came out of it.
:)

Other Comments by Diacanu

50. Comment #88789 by Diacanu on November 19, 2007 at 2:06 am

 avatarOh, and Kraut, lose the chicken little/tinfoil hat stuff, wouldya?
Hope isn't dead until we are, so the whole prophet of doom thing is a bit boring.
I outgrew it in my twenties, thanks.
Can we move on?

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