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Sunday, November 25, 2007 | Science : Archaeology | print version Print | Comments

Document Rock of Ages, Ages of Rock

by Hanna Rosin, NY Times

Thanks to Catalin Sandu for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/magazine/25wwln-geologists-t.html

rocksOn a muggy afternoon in July, a group of geologists from around the country put on some bug spray and fanned out along one of Ohio's richest fossil beds. The rock walls were slippery and steep at points, and some people came in their dress shoes straight from the conference that brought them together. But no one seemed daunted; when let loose on the rocks they behaved like children with a piñata, filling their pockets with local specimens and cooing over their treasure. "Ahh, that's a beautiful brachiopod!" or "A fine trilobite! Let me see that."

A brightly painted sign in the state park explained that 450 million years ago these ancient creatures lived at the bottom of a warm, shallow sea during the Ordovician period. But none of these geologists believed it. As young-earth creationists, they think the earth is about 8,000 years old, give or take a few thousand years. That's about the amount of time conventional geology says it can take to form one inch of limestone.

Creationist ideas about geology tend to appeal to overly zealous amateurs, but this was a gathering of elites, with an impressive wall of diplomas among them (Harvard, U.C.L.A., the Universities of Virginia, Washington and Rhode Island). They had spent years studying the geologic timetable, but they remained nevertheless deeply committed to a different version of history. John Whitmore, a geologist from nearby Cedarville University who organized the field trip, stood in the middle of the fossil bed and summarized it for his son.

"Dad, how'd these fossils get here?" asked Jess, 7, looking up from his own Ziploc bag full of specimens.

Whitmore, who was wearing a suede cowboy hat, answered in a cowboy manner — laconic but certain.

"From the flood," he said.

What was remarkable about the afternoon was not so much the fossils (the bed is well picked over) but the gathering itself, part of the First Conference on Creation Geology, held on the Cedarville campus. Creationist geologists are now numerous enough to fill a large meeting room and well educated enough to know that in rejecting the geologic timeline they are also essentially taking on the central tenets of the field. Any "evidence" presented at the conference pointing to a young earth would be no more convincing than voodoo or alchemy to mainstream geologists, who have used various radiometric-dating methods to establish that the earth is 4.6 billion years old. But the participants in the conference insist that their approach is scientifically valid. "We're past the point of being critical of evolutionists," Whitmore told me. "We're trying to go out and make new discoveries and actually do science."

Creationist geologists are thriving, paradoxically, at a moment when evangelicals are becoming more educated, more prosperous and more open to scientific progress. And though they are a lonely few among Christian academics, they have an influence far out of proportion to their numbers. They have just opened a state-of-the-art $27 million museum in Kentucky, and they dominate the Christian publishing industry, serving as the credentialed experts for the nearly half of Americans who believe in some version of a young earth. In a sense, they represent the fundamentalist avant-garde; unlike previous generations of conservative Christians, they don't see the need to choose between mainstream science and Biblical literalism.

This creationist approach to science is actually a relatively modern phenomenon, only about 50 years old. When the state of Tennessee put the biology teacher John Scopes on trial for teaching evolution in the 1920s, the creationists did not have a single credentialed supporter. Their main champions were an expert on penmanship, a dropout from homeopathic school and a Canadian surgeon who was billed on his travels as "the greatest scientist in all the world." William Jennings Bryan, noted prosecutor in the Scopes trial, was not overly concerned with the age of the earth; he equated six-day creationism with the flat-earth theory.

Then in 1961, John Whitcomb, a theologian, and Henry Morris, a hydraulic engineer from Texas, published "The Genesis Flood: The Biblical Record and Its Scientific Explanations." The book revived a relatively obscure, century-old theory of Noah's flood as the most violent catastrophe in earth history. The flood, they argued, warped the normal geological processes and caused rapid transformations. Water from the skies and from within the earth ("the floodgates of heaven") slammed into the oceans, killing the sea creatures and covering the "high mountains," as it says in Genesis. For months afterward, the planet convulsed with earthquakes, tsunamis and volcanoes. After a brief ice age, the earth became the ecosystem we know today. Continents shifted; the water receded; the animals left the ark and spread over the earth.

Until then fundamentalists had mostly avoided any close study of geology, because a literal reading of the Bible was too difficult to reconcile with the accepted age of the earth. But "The Genesis Flood" served as their version of "The Feminine Mystique," a generational manifesto that liberated them to explore. In the decades since, a small band of geologists, including Whitmore, have set to work improving on the Morris-Whitcomb model using the modern tools of their field: close examination of rocks and fossils combined with computer models.

Now the movement can count hundreds of scientists with master's or Ph.D. degrees in the sciences from respectable universities. The change started in part when Christian colleges that used to resist mainstream science started premed programs, which meant they needed trained biologists and chemists. Eventually they added courses in physics, chemistry and geology. Most geologists teaching at Christian colleges in the United States today say they do not believe in a young earth; they typically argue that a "day" in Genesis does not necessarily mean a literal 24-hour day, or that there could have been long gaps between the days. But the young-earthers treat the words of Genesis as irrefutable fact.

Their ideas are being showcased in the new Creation Museum in Petersburg, Ky., opened in May by a creationist group called Answers in Genesis, whose headquarters are nearby. With its wide-open spaces and interactive exhibits, the place feels like a slick museum of natural history, updated for the Hollywood age. Many of the exhibits were designed by Patrick Marsh, who helped create the "Jaws" and "King Kong" attractions at Universal Studios in Florida. Giant dinosaurs guard the courtyard entrance, promising fun and adventure. Inside, a replica of the ark leads you from seaboard to bottom deck, a rumbling theater replicates the flood, James Cameron-style. Lifelike models of Adam and Eve (who looks like the Brazilian supermodel Gisele Bündchen) frolic in a lush garden among the animals, including several dinosaurs.

The museum expected about 250,000 visitors in the first year. Instead, despite its $20 entry fee, it has had that many in six months, according to Michael Matthews, the museum's content manager. Almost every day, minivans and buses from Christian schools fill the parking lot, sometimes after 10-hour road trips. The museum's target group is the 45 percent of Americans who, for 25 years, have consistently agreed with the statement in a Gallup poll that "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so."

The museum sends the message that belief in a young earth is the only way to salvation. The failure to understand Genesis is literally "undermining the entire word of God," Ken Ham, the founder of Answers in Genesis, says in a video. The collapse of Christianity believed to result from that failure is drawn out in a series of exhibits: school shootings, gay marriage, drugs, porn and pregnant teens. At the same time, it presents biblical literalism as perfectly defensible science. A fossil shows a perch eating a herring, evidence, they claim, of animals instantaneously trapped by catastrophic events after the flood. In a video, geologists use evidence from Mount St. Helens to show how a mud flow can cut a deep canyon in a single day. "This is what I see based on science," said Andrew Snelling, one of the many creationist geologists at the conference in July who consulted with the museum.

At the conference, participants got together to tackle some difficult questions: How is radioisotope dating flawed? How was the Grand Canyon formed? If all those animals died in one cataclysmic event, why do their fossils appear in such distinct order? Their discussions recall a pre-Darwinian age, before science and faith became enemies. The old-earthers see their discipline as more pure than intelligent design; the intelligent-design people focus on a notion of a mystery "designer," without specifying who that might be and what the mechanisms are. To the young-earth creationists, this is both unscientific and dubiously religious. "We don't subscribe to this idea of the 'God of gaps,' meaning if you can't explain something, then blame God," Whitmore told me before describing a method that hardly seemed more scientific. "Instead, we think: 'Here's what the Bible says. Now let's go to the rocks and see if we find the evidence for it.' "

The heads of all the leading scientific creationist institutes from several countries showed up for the Cedarville event, along with the movement's other stars: John Baumgardner, a geophysicist who worked for 20 years at Los Alamos National Laboratory; Kurt Wise, who got his Ph.D. in paleontology from Harvard in the '80s as a student of Stephen Jay Gould, the nation's most famous opponent of creationism; and Marcus Ross, 31, the latest inductee into the movement, who got his Ph.D. in environmental science from the University of Rhode Island last summer.

Like any group of elites, they were snobs about their superior degrees. During lunch breaks or car rides, they traded jokes about the "vulgar creationists" and the "uneducated masses," and, in their least Christian moments, the "idiots on the Web." One leader of a creationist institute complained about all the cranks who call on the phone claiming to have seen dinosaurs or to have had a vision of Noah's ark. (How Noah fit the entire animal kingdom onto the ark is a perennial obsession.)

Because they have been exposed to so much standard science, the educated creationists like Kurt Wise try not to allow themselves the blind spots of their less sophisticated relations. Some years ago, for instance, fellow creationists claimed to have found fossils of human bones in Pennsylvania coal deposits, which scientists date to millions of years before humans appeared. After examining them, Wise concluded that they were "not fossil material at all" but "inorganically precipitated iron siderite nodules." Wise later pushed to get himself appointed as scientific adviser to the new creationist museum so he could "keep out the scientific garbage."

In a presentation at the conference, Wise showed a slide of a fossil sequence that moved from reptile to mammal, with some transitional fossils in between. He veered suddenly from his usual hyperactive mode to contemplative. "It's a pain in the neck," he said. "It fits the evolutionary prediction quite well." Wise and others have come up with various theories explaining how the flood could have produced such perfect order. Wise is refining a theory, for example, that the order reflects how far the animals lived from the shore, so those living farthest from the water show up last in the record. But they haven't settled on anything yet.

"We have nothing to fear from data," Ross told me. "If we're afraid, it means we don't trust God's word." The older generation of creationists "would come up with an explanation or a model and say, 'This solves it!' I'm a bit more cautious and at the same time more rigorous. We have lines of possibility that we continue to advance but at the same time we recognize that this is science, so the explanations are subject to change with new discoveries."

As the latest recruit into a small elite, and with his clipped dark hair and goatee, Ross was the novelty at the conference. He grew up in Rhode Island, was an undergraduate at the University of Pennsylvania and got his Ph.D. under David Fastovsky, a well-known expert in dinosaur extinction at the University of Rhode Island. Fastovsky knew Ross was a young-earth creationist; they'd talked about it after his application came in. "I guess I thought of it as a little bit like Jews playing Wagner," Fastovsky told me. "The science stands or falls, just like the music, regardless of the disposition of the scientist." Ross subsequently wrote a 197-page dissertation about a marine reptile called a mosasaur, whose disappearance he tracked through the Cretaceous period, about 65 million years ago. Fastovsky described the paper as "utterly sound," and the committee recommended very minimal edits.

At the conference I asked Ross whether he still believes what he wrote in his graduate thesis. His answer confirmed him as the product of the postmodern university, where truth is dependent on the framework: "Within the context of old age and evolutionary theory, yes. But if the parameter is different, portions of it could be completely in error."

Outside school, Ross studied what he considered great breakthroughs in creation geology. In 1999, Ross came across John Baumgardner's theory of catastrophic plate tectonics, which was proposed a few years earlier. The theory is the first attempt to describe the mechanism of the flood. It involves a fantastic "runaway" situation in which the ocean floor slides into the earth's mantle in a matter of weeks and then hot rocks come to the surface of the ocean floor, causing ocean water to vaporize and rush out like a geyser ("the fountains of the great deep" described in Genesis). A computer model refining the theory purports to show an earth wobbling crazily on its axis as land masses come together and then break apart, forming the continents we have today.

"Until then, my options were pretty pathetic," Ross said. Now he had something that "accounted for a large body of geological evidence," proposed by a geophysicist trained at U.C.L.A. and supported by three other geology Ph.D.'s.

So which side did he choose?

"I have faith that the Bible is a true and accurate record of the earth," he said. "I also entertain the possibility that I'm wrong. It would be cartoonish to say I don't have doubts from time to time. Everybody has moments of doubt. But I can have those moments without my brain exploding."

The new creationists are not likely to make much of a dent among secular scientists, who often just roll their eyes at the mention of flood geology. But they have become a burden to many geologists at Christian colleges around the country.

In recent years a number of Christian institutions have been undergoing what Alan Wolfe, a sociologist, calls "the opening of the evangelical mind." Instead of teaching a fundamentalist world-view that is always at odds with secular academia, many evangelical colleges are easing their students into the mainstream.

The statement of faith for Wheaton College in Illinois, Billy Graham's alma mater, for example, says that Scripture is "inerrant in the original writing" and that "God directly created Adam and Eve," but when it comes to pinning down the age of the earth, the school balks. Wheaton has a strong geology department. Its professors argue that the Bible makes no specific mention of the age of the earth. They belong to groups like the Geological Society of America and wring their hands about the "geo-literacy" of the church. "Geology at Wheaton is presented and practiced much the same way as at secular universities," the department chairman, Stephen Moshier, said in a recent talk. Other professors have issued long tracts comparing the various methods of radiometric dating and showing that they all agree: The earth is over four billion years old.

Most members of the American Scientific Affiliation, a collection of Christians with degrees in the sciences, qualify as old-earthers, according to Moshier. But the young-earthers have "a lot more influence," he told me. They have "tremendous clout" with Christian publishers and are "very, very successful at getting their word out," he said. "I know so many Christians who have tried to write books from a different perspective and been rejected."

Marcus Ross, meanwhile, is thriving in his teaching job at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va., founded by Jerry Falwell in 1971. Like many Christian colleges, Liberty is expanding rapidly to keep up with growing demand; the school adds 800 students a year, and now has a total of 10,000 on campus and 18,000 more distance-learning students. Each semester, Ross teaches a huge, mandatory survey course called History of Life. Most kids in the class are creationists, but Ross finds gaps in their world-view. His aim is to make their creationist logic more consistent, and his surveys show that he succeeds. At the beginning of the class, only 54 percent of students say the age of the earth is less than 10,000 years. By the end, it's 87 percent. The biggest shift? Did dinosaurs and man live at the same time? That one moves to 80 percent from 40.

These numbers make Moshier cringe. "It can get so frustrating," he said. "Many of us at Christian colleges really grieve at what a problem this young-earth creationism makes for the Christian witness. It's almost like they're adding another thing you have to believe to become a Christian. It's like saying, You have to believe the world is flat to be a Christian, and that's absolutely unreasonable."

Given the difficulty of their intellectual enterprise, the creationist geologists often have a story about the time they nearly gave it up. For Wise the crisis hit when he was a sophomore in high school. He was already an avid fossil collector who dreamed "an unattainable dream" of going to Harvard to study paleontology and then to teach at a big university. But as he told a friend, he couldn't reconcile the geologic ages with what he read in his Bible. So he set about figuring this out: every night, for months, he cut out every verse of the Bible he'd have to reject to believe in evolution. "I dreaded the impending end," he writes in a collection of essays called "In Six Days: Why 50 Scientists Choose to Believe in Creation." "All that I loved to do was involved with some aspect of science."

When he was done, he tried to pick up what was left. But he found it impossible to do that without the Bible being "rent in two," he writes. "Either the Scripture was true and evolution was wrong or evolution was true and I must toss out the Bible." In the end, he kept his Bible and achieved his unattainable dream. But it left him in a strange, vulnerable place. "If all the evidence in the universe turned against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate. Here I must stand."

In "The God Delusion," Richard Dawkins, the evolutionary biologist and author, presents Wise as an Othello figure, destroyed by his own convictions. "The wound, to his career," Dawkins writes, "and his life's happiness, was self-inflicted, so unnecessary, so easy to escape. All he had to do was toss out the Bible. Or interpret it symbolically, or allegorically, as the theologians do. Instead, he did the fundamentalist thing and tossed out science, evidence and reason, along with all his dreams and hopes."

If Wise still has doubts, or unhappiness, he has learned to put them aside. When consulting for the Creation Museum, he considered his most important duty to be presenting a "coherent story line about the earth's history," he said. "Even if it's wrong, it's a starting point. We use coherence as a criteria. It ought to fit together not as a set of random processes but something coherent orchestrated by God. And not just coherent but spine-tingling. God is behind this story. I can know it as a single story, and the story can be understood, and the story can be spine tingling. There's a Whoa! factor. And it's there from the first verse: The Lord God is One."

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1. Comment #90598 by Mango on November 25, 2007 at 5:46 pm

 avatar
He [Kurt Wise] veered suddenly from his usual hyperactive mode to contemplative. "It's a pain in the neck," he said. "It fits the evolutionary prediction quite well."


I just can't help but pity him and his misplaced trust in the Bible.

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2. Comment #90599 by Goldy on November 25, 2007 at 6:05 pm

Other than the Bible, what other evidence is there thet the Earth is only 6-8000 years old? Do they give any other indication of how the age is measured?

Other Comments by Goldy

3. Comment #90603 by Inferno on November 25, 2007 at 6:18 pm

 avatar
Now the movement can count hundreds of scientists with master's or Ph.D. degrees in the sciences from respectable universities.


How are these people getting Ph.Ds? I thought for a Ph.D you needed to prepare an original scientific paper. Surely creationism would never meet this? Are they doing papers and research according to accepted science but themselves secretly not believing the results? Isn't this akin to lying?

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4. Comment #90605 by BAEOZ on November 25, 2007 at 6:37 pm

 avatar
Are they doing papers and research according to accepted science but themselves secretly not believing the results? Isn't this akin to lying?

Yes, they are doing serious science, and getting Ph.Ds. They don't believe that the world is billions of years old, but they do the required science. It's a good way to give their beliefs credibility. After all a Ph.D. from a serious university gives you authority on the subject. They are lying. But lying for Jebus is good. Haven't you read the bible or chatted with fides_et_ratio before? :P

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5. Comment #90606 by Greybishop on November 25, 2007 at 6:39 pm

 avatarI'm going to major in Creation Geology. I think I'll minor in Storkian Obstetrics.

While I was reading this, I realized that I need a roll cage for my eyes.

I guess I understand their problem, though. It's awfully difficult to accurately observe the world around you through the bible. It's a thick book! I find it easier to see the world when I'm not holding a thick book in front of my eyes.

Other Comments by Greybishop

6. Comment #90607 by Will in Aus on November 25, 2007 at 6:40 pm

 avatarIt makes me sick. As someone who is hoping to start a Ph.D in environmental science next year, it worries me that these people can fake it for a while to get their doctorate, and then go and claim they have authority to promote creationist bulls**t!

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7. Comment #90609 by Goldy on November 25, 2007 at 6:45 pm

Odd really, how they can go and do science and yet not believe what they are researching. If they can't believe what's in front of them, how can they believe the Bible? Delusion of the highest extent, methinks! And they do lie - look...
"Either the Scripture was true and evolution was wrong or evolution was true and I must toss out the Bible." In the end, he kept his Bible and achieved his unattainable dream. But it left him in a strange, vulnerable place. "If all the evidence in the universe turned against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate. Here I must stand."

This after he'd been ripping reams out of his bible.
As for PhDs - 2 a penny. Any idiot can do a PhD, really. Getting in is hard, doing the research is piss easy and should you finish you get to join the millions of others who have completed their PhDs.
Still wondering how they misuse their scientific knowledge - I mean, I know a lot of scientists only use one method to verify what they are doing (wink, wink) but surely they can come up with another method or two to use to reinforce their "research". Just pointing to the Bible will bring about ridicule and denying all the other age measuring methods isn't helping either.

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8. Comment #90618 by kraut on November 25, 2007 at 8:28 pm

I actually feel sorry for those folkes who cannot take the evidence in front of them and rather put their faith in a compilation of several thousand year old yarns when nobody knew better.

That those folks can actually call themselves "academics" is a joke. I have never known before that twisting evidence to support believes in unicorns (among other mythical creatures or creators) has academic value.

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9. Comment #90619 by Diacanu on November 25, 2007 at 8:42 pm

 avatarSomebody had to do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvNOZegkVXo

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10. Comment #90629 by action bastard on November 25, 2007 at 10:43 pm

PHD's huh? I don't have one but I remember from grade school the scientific process. Forming a theory and then twisting the evidence to support it is not science. These "geologists" should have learned elementary science before proceeding to doctorates.

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11. Comment #90631 by jbblack on November 25, 2007 at 11:35 pm

 avatar
"We don't subscribe to this idea of the 'God of gaps,' meaning if you can't explain something, then blame God," Whitmore told me before describing a method that hardly seemed more scientific. "Instead, we think: 'Here's what the Bible says. Now let's go to the rocks and see if we find the evidence for it.' "


That last line sums up exactly why I am so hostile to Creation Science/Intelligent Design.

What would it be like if my doctor was like this? I go into the emergency room, and before so much as being interviewed as to why I am there, he writes a prescription for eye drops as he is convinced that I have pinkeye. Never mind that I have multiple compound fractures, cannot feel my legs, and have received several units of blood; the doctor is convinced that I have pinkeye and will not even bother looking at the evidence otherwise.

It's a recipe for malpractice, to say the least. But that is exactly what Creation Science is; like the doctor in my example, they are using reverse induction--starting with their desired conclusion and working their way back from it, picking up whatever evidence can be twisted into supporting it. This also means that they are making pains to reject any evidence that does not support their "conclusion".

That's not science because it does not take the evidence into account impartially. It does not build a forensically sound case culminating in a working model or theory, and the results can seldom be tested for veracity and therefore are resistant to being falsified--although if they are, the countering arguments are simply ignored. Yet these (sometimes brilliant, but very misguided) people have the audacity to place this on a par with real science.

It's a shame, really...

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12. Comment #90632 by jbblack on November 25, 2007 at 11:35 pm

 avatarPHDs, at least in the context of this story, must mean: "PHony Doctors"

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13. Comment #90640 by Philip1978 on November 26, 2007 at 1:26 am

 avatarMust...not...swear....

Creationists really are dangerous people- I think this line from the article sums it up for me


"Dad, how'd these fossils get here?" asked Jess, 7, looking up from his own Ziploc bag full of specimens.

Whitmore, who was wearing a suede cowboy hat, answered in a cowboy manner — laconic but certain.

"From the flood," he said.


I really dont think I have to say much more other than this man has lied to his son and filled his head with ignorance and nonsense. Lying to ones self is one thing, lying to your kids and helping them grow up in the same idiotic fashion is reprehensible.

Plus I just love the fact they have all the evidence to show that their stupid book is all shapes, shades and sizes of WRONG and yet they dance around so happily in their delusion - I personally find it much more exciting that something could be 450 million years old rather that a piffling 6000!

Philip

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14. Comment #90645 by Diacanu on November 26, 2007 at 1:56 am

 avatarEDIT- Eh, nevermind.

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15. Comment #90648 by Corylus on November 26, 2007 at 2:29 am

 avatarI can't believe this guy Ross.
Marcus Ross, meanwhile, is thriving in his teaching job at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va.... Each semester, Ross teaches a huge, mandatory survey course called History of Life. Most kids in the class are creationists, but Ross finds gaps in their world-view. His aim is to make their creationist logic more consistent, and his surveys show that he succeeds. At the beginning of the class, only 54 percent of students say the age of the earth is less than 10,000 years. By the end, it's 87 percent. The biggest shift? Did dinosaurs and man live at the same time? That one moves to 80 percent from 40.
I see, and how does he feel about what he is teaching??
At the conference I asked Ross whether he still believes what he wrote in his graduate thesis... "Within the context of old age and evolutionary theory, yes. But if the parameter is different, portions of it could be completely in error."
Someone else put it way better than me...
It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.
Thomas Paine
Utterly shameful.

If I were a Christian I would be furious reading this. What about 'The truth will set you free?'

It's heartbreaking, there are so many young minds at Liberty working to get a degree and paying fees to do so (if there is one thing I am willing to bet on about Liberty, it's that studying there isn't free). There is a possibility that some of these minds have the potential to advance knowledge for all of us.

What happens? Dishonesty and indoctrination. Minds polluted and potential squashed. I don't know if Bizarro is reading this (sounds like his kind of thing). This article demonstrates why; although I often find his comments annoying; I spend much more time being angry for him that at him.

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16. Comment #90654 by Vinelectric on November 26, 2007 at 3:32 am

 avatarHow can Intelligent Design lose out at a court of law only to let creationists through the backdoor? Is there nothing to regulate educational institutions (e.g public museums) ?

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17. Comment #90656 by BillySands on November 26, 2007 at 3:41 am

 avatarI think we have a good reason why these peiople believe this rubbish right at the start of the article - tell 7 year olds the flood did it. Poison their minds young, that's the way!
Shame wee flea is banned, he could have told us about how the earth today is not the same one god created (yet still insisting science and mythology can mix). I could have done with a laugh.

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18. Comment #90657 by Philip1978 on November 26, 2007 at 3:45 am

 avatarBilly,
Robertson eventually got banned? - just when I thought we were(n't) getting through to him!:)

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19. Comment #90659 by Quetzalcoatl on November 26, 2007 at 3:51 am

 avatarThe kind of mental partitioning this must involve is incredible to me, especially as regards Marcus Ross. His "degree" reeks of cynical intellectual dishonesty.

Philip- yeah, Wee Flea got banned at the start of the month. Josh commented to the extent that he'll also be banned if he gets caught on the site again! Did you see the link _J_ put up to the latest Free Church magazine? Some interesting stuff in there about atheism. (By interesting I mean CRAP).

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20. Comment #90661 by Tyler Durden on November 26, 2007 at 3:58 am

 avatarThis line of questioning or "research" must get really old, really fast for these people. I'm surprised they stick at it for any length of time:

"Dad, how'd these fossils get here?" asked Jess. "From the flood," i.e. Goddidit!

Q: "Dad, how'd the Grand Canyon form?" asked Mary. A: "Goddidit".

Q: "Dad, where'd the Universe come from?" asked Jimmy. A: "Goddidit".

Q: "Dad, where did cancer come from?" asked Polly. A: "Goddidit".

Q: "Dad, where'd my penis come from?" asked Joey. A: "Goddidit. But don't touch it son, that's not what God wants!"

Etc., etc., etc., ad nauseam!!

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21. Comment #90676 by Matt7895 on November 26, 2007 at 5:32 am

 avatarFor every lecture Liberty University gives on dinosaurs living with Noah, they must also play a lecture from 'Growing Up In The Universe'. The first one is a good starting point, with the children holding up pictures of our direct ancestors stretching back millions of years.

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22. Comment #90681 by GBile on November 26, 2007 at 5:45 am

I don't think that first having an idea (hypothesis) and then, scientifically, find evidence for it, is bad at all.
But in the mean time, do not present your hypothesis as fact ('the flood did it' where it should have been 'it might have been caused by a flood and we are trying to find evidence for that').

The crucial point is, of course, that when you do not find any evidence (but in this case overwhelming evidence leading to other conclusions) you must abandon your initial hypothesis.

By the way I remember having read that in middle eastern regions 'sedimentary cones' have been found that point to a flood (tsunami) that occurred around 4000 BC. This event might have been the basis of the 'flood myth' in the bible. Investigating that would be 'real' geology.

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23. Comment #90683 by Quetzalcoatl on November 26, 2007 at 5:50 am

 avatarGBile-

I think I read somewhere that historians and archaeologists reckon there was a great flood at that time, that may have been responsible for the formation of the Black Sea. Something to do with the melting of a glacier, I think. To primitive inhabitants of the region, it would have seemed like the whole world was flooding.

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24. Comment #90685 by phasmagigas on November 26, 2007 at 6:00 am

 avatarin terms of psychology i wonder if this is less to do with wanting truth and more to do with belonging to a specific group.

Its a bit like supporting your local football team for no better reason than everybody around you does so irrespective of the teams performance or character of its players. some football fans are passionate or indeed fanatical to the point of obsession and i wonder if there is a similarity.

its easy to observe belonging and ritual all tied together, i see it at UK football matches, droves of families in 'colours' heading to the stadium, muslim men in droves and traditional dress walking to mosque, I see it here in the states, a local jehova church has people in their what i assume are best clothes (a uniform as such) heading for their sessions, in all cases theres a kind of strange solidarity that i simply do not connect with. i wonder if the same happens with these flood geologists, once the notion has entered their minds (presumably in childhood) they fixate on it and join their group only to fuel their beliefs.

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25. Comment #90687 by windweaver on November 26, 2007 at 6:17 am

 avatarCorylus wrote:
I don't know if Bizarro is reading this (sounds like his kind of thing). This article demonstrates why; although I often find his comments annoying; I spend much more time being angry for him that at him.


A couple of weeks ago, I put a couple of questions (see below) to Bizarro. Surprize ,surprize he replied to my post but never answered them:

Q. You obviously regard the AiG site as a definitive source in arguing against the theory of evolution. I note that the site's authors state that the earth is approximately 6000 years old. Do you agree with their estimation of the earth's age? If not, how old do you estimate the earth to be?
Q.The authors of the AiG site also state that humans lived contemporaneously with the dinosaurs. Do you agree with them about this? If so, how do you account for the fact that, among the thousands and thousands of examples of ancient rock art discovered around the world, not one example has been found of early humans hunting/interacting with dinosaurs.

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26. Comment #90689 by windweaver on November 26, 2007 at 6:29 am

 avatarHere's an interesting NY Times article about creationists with reputable PHds:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/12/science/12geologist.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

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27. Comment #90690 by Quetzalcoatl on November 26, 2007 at 6:36 am

 avatarThanks for the link, Windweaver. I still can't help but think this guy is incredibly dishonest. The fact that he has a PHD is being used to lend veracity to the craziness that is YEC. He may talk about "different paradigms" but if the "paradigm" he honestly believes is that the Earth is less than ten thousand years old, then he's a liar.

Still, what can be done? Nothing, as far as I can see.

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28. Comment #90695 by BillySands on November 26, 2007 at 6:48 am

 avatarYep Philip, apparently I missed him getting banned, but he said something to the effect that he did not need to be nice to atheists on his last post - what a nut bag!

Quetz Do you have that link? Maybe you could put it on your blog and we can invite David - only joking!

windweaver, this will make you laugh http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/133 it was Devolved's proof that dinosaurs lived with people. Personally, I find the flintstones more convincing

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29. Comment #90697 by Quetzalcoatl on November 26, 2007 at 6:57 am

 avatarBilly-

here's the link-
http://www.freechurch.org/pdf/monthlyrecord/nov07.pdf

But while I'm always looking to increase the number of readers and commenters on my blog, I don't think I want the Wee Flea to be one of them!

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30. Comment #90702 by Tyler Durden on November 26, 2007 at 7:09 am

 avatarDinosaurs living with people, good grief. Whatever next? We all evolved from 2 people way back... oh!

While we could've co-existed on a huge planet with space to live and breed, how do these crackpots explain dinosaurs not eating everyone, and everything, on the Ark? "Sit, T-Rex, sit, God commands it!" :-)

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31. Comment #90709 by BicycleRepairMan on November 26, 2007 at 7:28 am

 avatarAnd Oceania is at war with Eurasia, it has always been at war with Eurasia,

How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?
-Four, Four, Four!!!
-But if the Party says its Five, Winston, then how many is it?
-Three! Five! I dont know!!
-Better.

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32. Comment #90710 by USA_Limey on November 26, 2007 at 7:29 am

 avatarWe still have so much to learn about psychology and how the human mind works.

Fascinating.

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33. Comment #90717 by Philip1978 on November 26, 2007 at 7:47 am

 avatarYikes, that Dr Ross worries me a great deal, I will never understand that mindset - There he is with evidence, just glaring hideously at him through his research that was supposed to be peer reviewed etc Can anyone tell me the actual process for doing a doctorate? I am certain it involves testing the evidence somewhere, how can someone do this to themselves?

Billy, I will never understood his sheer contempt of people, I think there was one time he said I was worth debating which gave me hope! I for one will not miss him, I like to give people a chance but all I got from him was cynicism in the end

Quetz, cool avatar! Cheers for that link, if didnt have it before, I now really have proper contempt for David!

Tyler, I love that "Sit T-Rex!, made me laugh!

Philip

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34. Comment #90718 by Tyler Durden on November 26, 2007 at 7:55 am

 avatarUSA_Limey: I've just started a degree in Psycholgy at night, fascinating stuff indeed. The subject of religion regularly crops up. (Religion is actually exempt from the diagnosis of personality disorders. Unbe-fricken-lieveable!)

My Freud lecturer is a creationist. Hard to comprehend how such an intelligent man can believe such childish fairy tales. He insists on using the bible/Jesus as source quotes in his lectures. (And I insist on offering a different viewpoint! :)

My philosophy lecturer is a Christian, I found this out last week while we were studying Nietzsche. Before tackling the thorny subject of Nietzsche's anti-christian beliefs, our lecturer actually apologised up front just in case anyone was offended by the material?!?!?! Whatever happended to "turning the other cheek"?

Reminds me of the Bill Hicks joke: "Hey, Mr Comedian, we didn't like that stuff you did," some audience members once apparently said to American counterculture comedian Bill Hicks, after he cracked a tasteless anti-Christian joke, "We're Christians."

"Well then forgive me," Hicks replied.
Class!

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35. Comment #90719 by black wolf on November 26, 2007 at 7:58 am

 avatar
We still have so much to learn about psychology and how the human mind works.

Fascinating.


These people are not even morons, they're seriously indicative of a schizotypical psychosis in connection with relationship delusion. They should be institutionalized, as they are evidentially sociopathic characters. Why doesn't anyone have the guts to actually file for apprehension and institutionalization. My guess: they're afraid they'd have to take in 40% of the population. Methinks it would be easier to just wall off two or three states for them and then see if they can survive on prayer.

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36. Comment #90725 by clunkclickeverytrip on November 26, 2007 at 8:03 am

These people have Ph.Ds alright - Profoundly Harmful Delusions.
Ian

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37. Comment #90726 by annabanana on November 26, 2007 at 8:03 am

 avatarThey believe Genesis literally, so why are they not going around killing all of the non-believers? Remember this verse?

Luke 19:27(Jesus speaking in a parable)
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Phasmagigas,

I understand what you're saying, but there are plenty of groups to which one can belong that don't involve such ludicrousness. For example, I've recently started cycling (bicycling, that is) and there's a community of cyclists where I live. To be a part of this community, there is no need to profess something utterly insane. I think that they do have a need to be part of a community and being a part of the YECs certainly fulfills that particular need, but it has to be more complicated than that, otherwise they'd just go start cycling or maybe joining the other Ph.D.'s who actually know what they're talking about.

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38. Comment #90729 by black wolf on November 26, 2007 at 8:08 am

 avatarPhilip1978, as another poster explained, they can comfortably confirm decent science and agree that Earth is 4.55 billion yrs old in their doctorate work, and then turn around and explain to their ignorant creatiomoronic audience that they lied just to get the degree from the 'scientistic world conspiracy'. If Jesus actually returned, they would sit down with him and explain to him how he was wrong and that lying is actually okay most of the time - lying to your audience, lying to the public on the media, lying to your children and to yourself. Because once you've told everybody the same lies, as they think revelation is knowledge and that makes it Truth(TM), it's not lying anymore. I think there should be laws prohibiting public lying, defining a lie as affirming disproven assertions.

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39. Comment #90734 by Philip1978 on November 26, 2007 at 8:27 am

 avatarCheers Black Wolf,
It was just my mind was busy being boggled by such stupidity - like you I cannot stand such dishonest work, I thought doctorates were supposed to mean something better than helping people to lie their heads off. I thought it was all about using intellect and bettering ones knowledge through academic endeavour and proving something. These guys are a disgrace to themselves and to science, its deplorable

Makes me happy that people like Billy are putting his research to good use - how is Quetz's army going Billy? :) hehehehe!


Philip

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40. Comment #90736 by Tyler Durden on November 26, 2007 at 8:28 am

 avatarblack wolf: As the old joke goes: when you talk to God it's called prayer; when God talks back to you it's called schizophrenia.

Any psychotic or delusional behaviour can be properly diagnosed (and treated) so long as it does not involve religion. Religion gets a free pass. Why this is I do not know, but I'd like to see it changed, and soon!

Case in point: if George Dubya had said his teddy bear/dog/Abraham Lincoln had told him it was ok to invade Iraq instead of his "god", he would've been impeached and institutionalised before he'd finished his speech.

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41. Comment #90742 by black wolf on November 26, 2007 at 8:39 am

 avatarTyler: I wonder if they'll still get a free pass if they start torching public schools.
I mean, how blind can Justitia be? She's not carrying a sword for no reason. The scale has tipped.

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42. Comment #90743 by Quetzalcoatl on November 26, 2007 at 8:40 am

 avatarTyler-

Case in point: if George Dubya had said his teddy bear/dog/Abraham Lincoln had told him it was ok to invade Iraq instead of his "god", he would've been impeached and institutionalised before he'd finished his speech


Things are a lot better in Britain than America as far as this is concerned. And I do think that these days it is getting harder to get away with saying things like that, for which the rise of the "New Atheists" deserves thanks. Still a long way to go, though.

Philip-

found the avatar on the web this morning, one of the virtues of being bored at work! It's pretty good, isn't it?

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43. Comment #90746 by JanChan on November 26, 2007 at 8:48 am

After a brief ice age, the earth became the ecosystem we know today.

Ok, where in the bible did these people find anything referring to an ice age? If you ask me, they aren't being fundamentalist enough. Additionally, the article should have been more critical about their claims, it's not good enough just to say that their wacky ideas are rejected by mainstream scientists, there has to be a section of the article for the purpose of a mainstream scientists refuting their claims.

And how does one mud flow, no matter how huge, create the Grand Canyon? Anyway this last time I check, that ark in the bible was supposed to be floating on water, not mud.

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44. Comment #90748 by Quetzalcoatl on November 26, 2007 at 8:52 am

 avatarAh, but the Ark was on the other side of the world to the Grand Canyon, miraculously shielded from all the mud.

The mud that carved the Grand Canyon was also, like, really really acidic or something. Or maybe it was something else. It was certainly miraculous.

Praise the Lord!

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45. Comment #90751 by black wolf on November 26, 2007 at 9:06 am

 avatar
Ah, but the Ark was on the other side of the world to the Grand Canyon, miraculously shielded from all the mud.

The mud that carved the Grand Canyon was also, like, really really acidic or something. Or maybe it was something else. It was certainly miraculous.

Praise the Lord!


Thanks for clearing that up for all the unbelievers on this shrill site. Spred Teh Wurd of Trooth! Water is Good therefore mud is Clear!
Not. LOL Rly ;)

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46. Comment #90752 by Tyler Durden on November 26, 2007 at 9:09 am

 avatarQuetzalcoatl: I agree, however, didn't the Bishop of Carlise recently comment on the floods in England being God's judgment on the immorality of society. "We are in serious moral trouble because every type of lifestyle is now regarded as legitimate," he said.

Is this any better than praying for rain as Governor Perdue has in Georgia? ;)

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47. Comment #90755 by Quetzalcoatl on November 26, 2007 at 9:15 am

 avatarTyler-

And he was roundly condemned for it. I imagine he got a few Carlisle bricks through his windows as well. While the fact that a Bishop holds those views is worrying, he's by no means mainstream.

Perdue was just ridiculous. He might as well have sacrificed a cow on an altar for all the good it would do. Still, we need believers like him. Why should we bother exposing the stupidities of religious faith, when we can just let the believers do it for us?

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48. Comment #90763 by USA_Limey on November 26, 2007 at 9:48 am

 avatarThere are actually two levels of mental gymnastics / duality of mind going on here.

Firstly, the obvious conflict between their scientific training/knowledge and their belief in a young earth.

This in itself alone would make for an interesting case study in compartmentalization of the mind. However, what I really find fascinating about this bunch and others like them are the internal conflicts it creates with their own beliefs and source material: the bible.

Think about it. They have a disconnect going on between their science and their belief in a young earth because of their claim in the TRUTH and INNERANCY of the bible. But it follows that they must therefore have a disconnect and compartmentalization going on at a whole other level when it comes to the bible itself.

I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they don't support slavery or public stonings for the adulteroous. Yet both are fully endorsed by god in the bible.

How do they square that circle? They will put into conflict accepted scientific knowledge on the age of the earth with their scriptural truth on the earths origins, but they WON'T take a stand against modern society and modern law even though the same innerrent bible tells them they should? Wow.... That is more levels of mind bending mental contortions than I can get a grip on. So, like i said. Just fascinating.

Can we put all these people in a lab and run them around a maze and run tests on them? Think what we might learn..... :-)

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49. Comment #90765 by Haymoon on November 26, 2007 at 9:52 am

 avatarScience education in the US is sure in bad shape

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50. Comment #90802 by Duff on November 26, 2007 at 12:00 pm

I can't help but have a little sympathy for these poor christian "scientists". The cognitive dissonance must be causing some pretty serious stress. Well, not too much sympathy.

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