Sunday, November 25, 2007 | Reason : In the News | print version

Sunday School for Atheists

by TIME

Thanks to J. Marshal for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1686828,00.html

kids

Sunday morning at The Children's Program at the Humanist Community of Palo Alto, California.

On Sunday mornings, most parents who don't believe in the Christian God, or any god at all, are probably making brunch or cheering at their kids' soccer game, or running errands or, with luck, sleeping in. Without religion, there's no need for church, right?

Maybe. But some nonbelievers are beginning to think they might need something for their children. "When you have kids," says Julie Willey, a design engineer, "you start to notice that your co-workers or friends have church groups to help teach their kids values and to be able to lean on." So every week, Willey, who was raised Buddhist and says she has never believed in God, and her husband pack their four kids into their blue minivan and head to the Humanist Community Center in Palo Alto, Calif., for atheist Sunday school.

An estimated 14% of Americans profess to have no religion, and among 18-to-25-year-olds, the proportion rises to 20%, according to the Institute for Humanist Studies. The lives of these young people would be much easier, adult nonbelievers say, if they learned at an early age how to respond to the God-fearing majority in the U.S. "It's important for kids not to look weird," says Peter Bishop, who leads the preteen class at the Humanist center in Palo Alto. Others say the weekly instruction supports their position that it's O.K. to not believe in God and gives them a place to reinforce the morals and values they want their children to have.

The pioneering Palo Alto program began three years ago, and like-minded communities in Phoenix, Albuquerque, N.M., and Portland, Ore., plan to start similar classes next spring. The growing movement of institutions for kids in atheist families also includes Camp Quest, a group of sleep-away summer camps in five states plus Ontario, and the Carl Sagan Academy in Tampa, Fla., the country's first Humanism-influenced public charter school, which opened with 55 kids in the fall of 2005. Bri Kneisley, who sent her son Damian, 10, to Camp Quest Ohio this past summer, welcomes the sense of community these new choices offer him: "He's a child of atheist parents, and he's not the only one in the world."

Kneisley, 26, a graduate student at the University of Missouri, says she realized Damian needed to learn about secularism after a neighbor showed him the Bible. "Damian was quite certain this guy was right and was telling him this amazing truth that I had never shared," says Kneisley. In most ways a traditional sleep-away camp--her son loved canoeing--Camp Quest also taught Damian critical thinking, world religions and tales of famous freethinkers (an umbrella term for atheists, agnostics and other rationalists) like the black abolitionist Frederick Douglass.

The Palo Alto Sunday family program uses music, art and discussion to encourage personal expression, intellectual curiosity and collaboration. One Sunday this fall found a dozen children up to age 6 and several parents playing percussion instruments and singing empowering anthems like I'm Unique and Unrepeatable, set to the tune of Ten Little Indians, instead of traditional Sunday-school songs like Jesus Loves Me. Rather than listen to a Bible story, the class read Stone Soup, a secular parable of a traveler who feeds a village by making a stew using one ingredient from each home.

Down the hall in the kitchen, older kids engaged in a Socratic conversation with class leader Bishop about the role persuasion plays in decision-making. He tried to get them to see that people who are coerced into renouncing their beliefs might not actually change their minds but could be acting out of self-preservation--an important lesson for young atheists who may feel pressure to say they believe in God.

Atheist parents appreciate this nurturing environment. That's why Kitty, a nonbeliever who didn't want her last name used to protect her kids' privacy, brings them to Bishop's class each week. After Jonathan, 13, and Hana, 11, were born, Kitty says she felt socially isolated and even tried taking them to church. But they're all much more comfortable having rational discussions at the Humanist center. "I'm a person that doesn't believe in myths," Hana says. "I'd rather stick to the evidence."

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1. Comment #90617 by kraut on November 25, 2007 at 8:23 pm

"An estimated 14% of Americans profess to have no religion, and among 18-to-25-year-olds, the proportion rises to 20%"

There is hope, after all

Other Comments by kraut

2. Comment #90624 by Janus on November 25, 2007 at 9:29 pm

The title annoys me, but it's a good article nevertheless.

And yes, very encouraging.

Other Comments by Janus

3. Comment #90625 by Spinoza on November 25, 2007 at 9:38 pm

Most non-religious people are idiots... Just like the rest of the population.

*sighs*

Other Comments by Spinoza

4. Comment #90626 by BAEOZ on November 25, 2007 at 9:44 pm

Most non-religious people are idiots... Just like the rest of the population.

Yay me! That was a compliment wasn't it?
Anyway, I'm reading theological-politico treatise atm and find it easy to read (compared to other philosophers.)

Other Comments by BAEOZ

5. Comment #90627 by Will in Aus on November 25, 2007 at 10:08 pm

I'm all for organisations like this. As long as the children are not "led" to atheistic/humanistic conclusions, but rather pointed in the right direction and left to discover their beliefs through critical thinking and analysis of the evidence, no harm could really come from such a program. It's really good to see people engaging in such ideas....there's hope for us yet!

Other Comments by Will in Aus

6. Comment #90636 by Goldy on November 26, 2007 at 12:47 am

Why Sunday?

Other Comments by Goldy

7. Comment #90638 by bored on November 26, 2007 at 1:08 am

How ironic that the teacher is called Bishop!

"she realized Damian needed to learn about secularism" - surely all you need to do is watch the crap that's on tv every day?

This sounds a like they are trying to create 'Atheist children', i wonder if RD deplores this phrase as much as 'Muslim child' or 'Jewish child', instead of 'child of Muslim parents' etc.

Other Comments by bored

8. Comment #90642 by Philip1978 on November 26, 2007 at 1:38 am

I'm a bit sceptical about this, I am all for kids being given the chance to learn about the world without being lied to, but sunday school for atheists?
I would need more convincing about this, just as I dont want religion shoved down kids throats, I would feel the same about atheists views being shoved down kids throats when they are too young to understand it.

Plus sunday? Shouldnt kids be out getting mucky or something, I would have thought thats the best way to learn about the world around them! Hmm I am not a parent or ever going to be one, what do other parents think about this?

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

9. Comment #90651 by Nails on November 26, 2007 at 3:13 am

I have often wondered about this; especially recent;y as my little one is at nursery (and the only ones around here are run by church groups....)
A big sign on the wall declares the "JESUS IS THE KING OF TRUTH" - a terrible irony, but I never worried about my other two going there and I will allow here to indulge in her childhood.
But she will learn about jesus in the same way she learns about santa and the tooth fairy - until she's old enough to know better.....

Other Comments by Nails

10. Comment #90653 by Cartomancer on November 26, 2007 at 3:29 am

I think the point of this article was that in messed-up countries like America, with loopy faith heads roaming the streets quite openly and trying to eat children's brains, it is quite helpful and even necessary to have some sort of corrective that will help these children to avoid this nasty fate.

I find the idea of the American style summer camp and the Sunday School quite sinister myself as it happens. Smells terribly of regimenting and processing children, inculcating group behaviour rather than stressing individuality. At that age all I wanted to do was play independently on my own or with a close friend. I would certainly have resented having half my weekend and most of my summer sacrificed to something I did not choose to do myself and sent away from my parents for a long period of time. Nevertheless, it is a specific cultural construction and if American parents want to have their sprogs tormented in this manner then it is a good thing there are secular, free-thinking alternatives available.

Other Comments by Cartomancer

11. Comment #90663 by SilentMike on November 26, 2007 at 4:05 am

I personally think anything that stops the US from spiralling towards the dark ages is good.

If non-believers need places where their children can meet others like them then it's good that those places are there.

And "Bishop". Yeah that is indeed funny. Just another one of life's little larks.

Other Comments by SilentMike

12. Comment #90670 by Peacebeuponme on November 26, 2007 at 5:00 am

"He's a child of atheist parents, and he's not the only one in the world."

Dawkins will be pleased...

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

13. Comment #90688 by 35bluejacket on November 26, 2007 at 6:20 am

Spinoza:
Is it possible that you have inherited in your thought the old school of "dualism" of Manichaeism? Materialism is not the opposite of spirituualty nor is knowledge the opposite of ignorance. Ignorance is just a lesser degree of knowledge.
The reason I bring this up is that I have seen many people on this site use "dualism" in their syllogisms, perhaps not knowing where it comes from or knowing they think that way. We should keep in mind that religion has perpetuated that erroneous and dangerous school of thought into our culture.

Other Comments by 35bluejacket

14. Comment #90692 by Barbara on November 26, 2007 at 6:44 am

Sunday School for atheists? The concept is good but I'd rather it be called something else. Whatever it's called, the faith-heads will call it religion. :(

I like the idea of having a place where children of atheist parents can go to:

Develop a sense of community

Learn morals and values (and charity?)

Learn how to respond to the God-fearing majority

Learn critical thinking skills

Learn about world religions

Learn life lessons through story telling

Enjoy music

Enjoy art

Take part in discussion to encourage personal expression, intellectual curiosity and collaboration.

Learn about the role persuasion/coercion plays in decision-making.

Experience an overall nurturing environment.

Other Comments by Barbara

15. Comment #90700 by flobear on November 26, 2007 at 7:04 am

I think this is a great idea. As an American, I can see how children or parents might feel isolated in communities that have high Sunday school and church attendance. It's part of our national character to torture and brainwash our children. I'm in favor of removing the brainwashing and just keeping the torture part.

Cartomancer: I find the idea of the American style summer camp ... quite sinister myself as it happens.

The only camps I knew about growing up had nothing to do with religion. Though this might have to do with the region I grew up in (not the bible belt). Mostly the camps around me were about sports and games. Since both parents have careers these days, it's a good way to get the little ones out of their hair during the summer.

I'm for it!

Other Comments by flobear

16. Comment #90704 by onlysky on November 26, 2007 at 7:19 am

I'm always disappointed when I read a great article like this about the important need for community resources for Atheists, especially with regard to children, and then I read the comments and see how many Atheists are frightened and contemptuous of this idea.

My theory is that most of the Atheists who think that this could be an example of "Atheism indoctrination" or "Atheism being shoved down kid's throats" are probably Atheists by conversion themselves, who have no idea what it's like to actually grow up as an Atheist.

As a former child of Atheist parents myself, I find it very hard to fathom the idea of Atheist indoctrination. Atheism is the default position. Growing up in an atheist family just means growing up without religious indoctrination. I don't see how Atheist summer camps or community groups would be doing anything more than teaching children to use reason and value evidence, explaining values and morality without using religion, and most importantly, providing a sense of community and belonging to children who are very likely to feel a sense of social isolation if they grow up surrounded on all sides by an overwhelmingly religious community, as I did.

I wish some Atheists would get over their overly righteous sense of individuality and realize that there is a very great need, in such a religious world, for organization, community and outreach among Atheists. There is really no basis for the criticism and disapproval of these efforts and programs as far I can see.

Other Comments by onlysky

17. Comment #90711 by Fedler on November 26, 2007 at 7:31 am

I think this is a great idea! As an atheist married to a Catholic I've often wanted an outlet like this free of the religious overtones. My daughter currently attends "Bible School" at our local church on Thursday nights and I allow it for the social interactions (being an only child she doesn't get much peer interactions) and I've been wishing for some counterbalance like this.

Unfortunately, we are left with some of the trappings of the religious tones, such as calling it "Sunday School", but it doesn't have to be on Sunday. I agree with Barbara, the religites will call it a religion no matter what. That's their habit.

Other Comments by Fedler

18. Comment #90714 by 35bluejacket on November 26, 2007 at 7:38 am

onlysky:

Amen brother

Other Comments by 35bluejacket

19. Comment #90720 by upsidedawn on November 26, 2007 at 7:58 am

I'm all for it as long as the kids enjoy participating and want to go. But all I can think about is the drudgery of having to give up my free weekend time attending Sunday School every week as a child. It didn't matter that I bought into the religious crap as a kid. I still hated having to get dressed up and go to Sunday School and church.

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20. Comment #90733 by Cartomancer on November 26, 2007 at 8:18 am

Manichaeism? Pffft! Mani nicked cosmological dualism from the Zoroastrians of his native Persia.

Other Comments by Cartomancer

21. Comment #90740 by 35bluejacket on November 26, 2007 at 8:37 am

Cartomancer:
True, it was mentioned by Zoroastor but expanded greatly by Mani. But what is your point of bringing this up?
The question is: is dualism a good or bad concept, not who the author was.

Other Comments by 35bluejacket

22. Comment #90741 by _J_ on November 26, 2007 at 8:38 am

I think this is a great idea. And I'm not even American.

I hope it's less boring than the Methodist Sunday School I went to. It sounds less boring. In fact, it sounds pretty cool. Do they take people in their twenties?

At least there shouldn't be any danger of the kids here having to put up with the unexplained absurdities of 'normal' Sunday School. I remember being told that 'God could do anything' when I was but a wee toddler. I spent ages asking increasingly ridiculous questions about smashing planets into each other. I think the teachers gave up on me in the end. Really, filling naive children's heads with nonsense like that in a place called a 'school' shouldn't be acceptable. How nice it'd be to go to a Sunday School where all of the amazing claims were factual.

For people who are suggesting that needn't be held on a Sunday - technically, sure, but that's missing the point, isn't it? The article makes it clear that one of the chief motivations for this is to give kids something 'normal' to do whilst all their friends-of-theistic-parents learn how to grovel at god. They're not doing that on Thursday nights.

As a last suggestion: for kids who can't make it to these, Sunday mornings should be filled with Star Trek repeats. It's more or less the same thing.

Other Comments by _J_

23. Comment #90749 by eric711 on November 26, 2007 at 8:52 am

This is great, I hope it takes off. As someone who grew up in a secular household, I can say I would have benefitted by a secular Sunday School if it were available at the time.

Other Comments by eric711

24. Comment #90750 by Cartomancer on November 26, 2007 at 8:56 am

Well, I could lie and say there was a lot more to my comment than self-serving antiquarian pedantry, but there wasn't.

Though it does go to show that the idea of cosmological dualism is much older still than late antiquity. I'm not entirely sure what Manichaean cosmological dualism has to do with this though. Mani posited, following Zoroaster though changing it round, that matter as we understand it is bad, while spirit or light (also a kind of matter to him) is good. He also thought the universe of light was trying to separate the two into their original unmixed conditions after an incursion by the universe of darkness which created the universe we see ourselves. This is not the same as positing that only the physical world we see around us actually exists with no spiritual dimension at all, and thus anything "spiritual" is by definition unreal. To Mani (and to Descartes, but not in quite the same way) both the physical and the spiritual were real, material things. To the modern thinker the physical is material and real but the spiritual is unreal, intra-mental and imaginary.

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25. Comment #90754 by JFHalsey on November 26, 2007 at 9:14 am

As a parent of two little ones living in the Bible Belt, I think this sounds like a wonderful idea. I wish there was one in our area (yeah right, it'd probably get burned down).

Both my children currently attend a daycare run by a church, because that's the only place we can take them. I worry constantly about the indoctrination they will face growing up, from their grandparents and daycare as well as the majority of their peers; it'd be great if there was a place they could get together and see that they're parents aren't the only athiests in town.

Also, as a parent, I can definately empathize with the quoted Willey when she said that we need more social groups for support and fellowship. I've been strongly tempted lately to start attending a church just for that reason, indoctrination be damned.

Other Comments by JFHalsey

26. Comment #90758 by kevlaw on November 26, 2007 at 9:21 am

It's funny that so many people have commented on the incongruity of a "Sunday School for Atheists" since the body of the article doesn't call it that only the title (probably added as a provocative touch by the editors).

The body of the article talks about humanism, not atheism. Teaching kids about humanism seems like a fine idea.

Other Comments by kevlaw

27. Comment #90762 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on November 26, 2007 at 9:38 am

What we need is an online place for kids of atheist parents to get together. My daughter is quite comfortable about her utter lack of god belief, but we live in Sweden where its more the norm. Tricky for the American bible belters

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

28. Comment #90768 by 35bluejacket on November 26, 2007 at 9:57 am

Cartomancer:

Thank you for your views. Certainly intellectual history has interpreted dualism in many ways but the effects of this concept has permeated our culture. Examples of this would be; the devil at war with god, good vs evil,(how many movies have we seen this scenario?), or the physical world as we know it as being evil or something to conquer, (Manifest Destiny?) and the world of the spritual being good, or evolution the opposite of creationism, or that science (knowledge) being the opposite of ignorance.
Ignorance is not the opposite of knowledge anymore than darkness is the opposite of light. Darkness is just a "lesser degree" of light, the same with ignorance.

I'm always open to corrections.

Other Comments by 35bluejacket

29. Comment #90784 by Barbara on November 26, 2007 at 10:40 am

@ briancoughlanworldcitizen:

While an online place for kids of atheist parents to get together is a good idea, it can be dangerous too. One can never be sure who they are interacting with online these days. With adequate adult/parental supervision, I think a place for face-to-face interaction is a much better and safer option for the children.

Other Comments by Barbara

30. Comment #90790 by Zaphod on November 26, 2007 at 11:21 am

Not believing in god doesn't make you a Rhodes scholar.

Not that being a Rhodes scholar is anything special in my book.

Other Comments by Zaphod

31. Comment #90792 by onlysky on November 26, 2007 at 11:33 am

Comment #90714 by 35bluejacket on November 26, 2007 at 7:38 am
onlysky:

Amen brother

Thanks!
However, not all atheists are male, you know..;)

Other Comments by onlysky

32. Comment #90793 by sidfaiwu on November 26, 2007 at 11:35 am

Hello All,

I'm a free thinker living in the Bible Belt of the US. I think onlysky and others are correct. Many freethinkers tend to be such individualists that they fail to recognize the importance and value of community. I'm not sure how it is in other parts of the world, but in America, Churches are pretty much the only institutions around which communities are built, especially for time-strapped parents.

This is the dilemma faced by many freethinkers in this country. Either go to church, or forgo a sustained community. I'd like to see more of these humanitarian community institutions and would probably frequent one myself, if they were available in NC.

Currently, I have to compromise and attend a Unitarian Universalist church. If you can get over some of the religious trappings of the UU church, most congregations are fully accepting of atheists (or the odd deist-agnostic such as myself) among their ranks. They mostly focus on humanitarian ethics anyway, so morally, it's a good fit. Even if you have too roll your eyes or suppress a laugh with the occasional mention of 'faith' and 'spirit', an accepting community can be well worth the effort.

Many of them also offer 'religious education' classes for children and teens. It tends to be of the 'all religions have something of value to offer' variety, at least they teach that no one religion is any better than another. Unfortunately, your kids will have to get their critical thinking skills from elsewhere.

UU church can be a nice stop-gap measure until (and if) these humanitarian communities are more widely available.

Other Comments by sidfaiwu

33. Comment #90797 by perkyjay on November 26, 2007 at 11:48 am

Phillip1978: I'm a parent of five sons, aged 56 to 43. I've been an atheist since the age of 16, but I never stood in the way of any of my boys going to sunday school - only two ever wanted to go anyway, and then only two or three times. They are all very devout atheists and have been for many years, but it's only since I retired from business almost 20 years ago that I came out and declared myself to the world at large that I was an atheist,(why spoil a good thing - I had a lot of christian clients, who most certainly would not have used my services if they had been aware of my infidel status) - my point being that I never
tried to influence my sons one way or the other. I'm delighted to say that my six grandchildren,all in their 20s now, are atheists as well.

Other Comments by perkyjay

34. Comment #90801 by Steve Wrathall on November 26, 2007 at 11:59 am

Why not a Flying Spaghetti Monster Sunday School?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_M37EWQGCA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7KWgaoZAc8

Other Comments by Steve Wrathall

35. Comment #90816 by 35bluejacket on November 26, 2007 at 12:40 pm

Amen sister!! Lord knows we men need to pass the scepter. We screwed this old world up pretty good. If education had been given to the women/mothers first as a priority then the kids would have been smarter and it might have been a better world.

Other Comments by 35bluejacket

36. Comment #90925 by heathen2 on November 26, 2007 at 5:06 pm

Growing up without religion (most of the time), I was always happy not to have the drudgery of Sunday service or any other forced prayer/service. I felt sorry for my friends who had to go, because mostly they didn't want to either.

I have never felt the need to take my kids to a church type place for either the instruction or the sense of community. We can get community through other means, and feel sorry for the kids that are dragged to church.

I teach my kids values, morals and ethics through my actions and behavior. We have discussions about ideas, other people, the world, philosophy, history, science, etc. They learn alot from that and I learn from them.

We feel no need for a Sunday school. Fortunately, my spouse is on the same wavelength with this, so it is not a problem for us. I can understand though if someone wants to counter the religious education their child is getting (due to a religious spouse) that this would be a good thing.

One thing I don't get though, whether you are religious or not, is why put something as important as your child's moral education in the hands of others (such as priests, rabbis, sunday school teachers, atheist "bishops")?

Other Comments by heathen2

37. Comment #90949 by prettygoodformonkeys on November 26, 2007 at 7:10 pm

12. Comment #90663 by SilentMike on November 26, 2007 at 4:05 am
I personally think anything that stops the US from spiralling towards the dark ages is good.

Cartomancer will be happy to set you straight on the Dark Ages.

Carty?
Carty?
You out there?

Ah, Silentmike, ya poor sad bastard. Here he comes.

Other Comments by prettygoodformonkeys

38. Comment #90974 by Gene Goldring on November 26, 2007 at 9:24 pm

"for atheist Sunday school"

Those are words of the authors choosing. The only thing that comes close to those words on their web site for the Children's Program is

"dogma-free Sunday School"

This isn't an atheist organisation as others have mentioned. It's a Humanist organisation. Does using the term atheist get more readers I wonder?
Here's their web site and the Children's Program, a.k.a. dogma-free Sunday School description link.
http://www.humanists.org

Apparently the Stone Soup story is told in church as well.
http://www.storybin.com/sponsor/sponsor116.shtml

A humanist can be an atheist but not all atheists are Humanists.

Other Comments by Gene Goldring

39. Comment #90979 by Paine on November 26, 2007 at 9:41 pm

Bri Kneisley, who sent her son Damian, 10, .......Kneisley, 26, a graduate.

Am I the only one who noticed and was bemused by this? I thought it was only condom-hating, abortion-banning, non-college-going faith-heads who started breeding at 16. ;)

Hope it's a misprint.

Other Comments by Paine

40. Comment #90996 by atheist_peace on November 26, 2007 at 10:33 pm

"Am I the only one who noticed and was bemused by this? I thought it was only condom-hating, abortion-banning, non-college-going faith-heads who started breeding at 16. ;)"

Maybe he's adopted :)

Other Comments by atheist_peace

41. Comment #90997 by shmooth on November 26, 2007 at 10:34 pm

i started attending the Humanist Community meetings in Palo Alto, recently (the group with the Children's Program mentioned in the article) - it's been a great experience so far. best organization i've ever been involved with. i honestly don't know much about the kids program, so can't address specific questions, but i did meet at least three of the teachers/caretakers and they all seemed uber-nice and smart/thoughtful/caring/etc.

i've tried to reply to some of the comments where i felt i could add useful info, and i threw in a few links at the bottom.

This sounds a like they are trying to create 'Atheist children',

I doubt it. I suspect they're trying to raise 'good children' - good human beings, responsible citizens, etc.

atheists views being shoved down kids throats

It's important to note that Humanism is generally considered to encompass/envelope Atheism - at least, that's the way I think of it - and, as such, has a lot of ideas to bring to the table. The Children's Program, as it is called, is probabably just not what you think it is based on the title of the article. There is no 'Sunday School for Atheists'. I'd say there is a 'Sunday School for Humanists'. Big difference.

But what you would object to? Teaching kids to think critically? To be kind? To share and cooperate? To respect people, no matter how different they dress/look/act?

I think the point of this article was that...it is quite helpful and even necessary to have some sort of corrective that will help these children to avoid this nasty fate.

i didn't see it so much as being 'corrective' - instead i'd say it was a information piece on an alternative place you can go with your children to be with a community of people who share your values - and you can do it without subscribing (or pretending to) belief in a supernatural power. i figure most people go to church for the community aspects of it - that stuff is awesome. if a supernatural power fell out of the church equation, i suspect people would hardly notice.

Sunday School for atheists? The concept is good but I'd rather it be called something else.

it's called The Children's Program.

I'm always disappointed when I read a great article like...and then I read the comments and see how many Atheists are frightened and contemptuous of this idea. There is really no basis for the criticism and disapproval of these efforts and programs as far I can see.

well said. constructive criticism is very welcomed, but to see the criticism of this program thrown out there with words like 'disgust' and 'indoctrination' and all sorts of stuff I've been reading - it reminds me of typical right-wing reactionary thinking. what's the basis?

It didn't matter that I bought into the religious crap as a kid. I still hated having to get dressed up and go to Sunday School and church.

i never bought into the religious stuff as a kid (that i remember; thank you very much), but i do remember generally not minding it. there were a whole bunch of kids in there - kids in the neighborhood i knew. we'd chill. talk. laugh. get yelled at by the teacher. and when we were done we'd go get mickey-d's, and it'd be all good. maybe that's why i've liked my experience with the Humanist Community so much so far - it's like a grown-up version of Sunday School w/o the God stuff. :-D

as for the kids, there are two groups - the really young ones are about as happy and energetic as any young kids seem to be - but we only see them when they all come into the big room for lunch afterwards. the few older kids - 8-14 age I'm guessing - they seem kinda bored after their class, but I have no idea what they're talking about during class, or whether they enjoy it or not.

I think this is a great idea. And I'm not even American.

plenty of humanist groups in Britain and around the world. just google, go check one out, and report back to us on your experience, please! ;-) actually, i'm very interested in being able to attend humanist group meetings when i travel.

we had a new couple show up this past week, in part because a grandma in Florida told them she saw an article on the group in the magazine. the couple had also heard good things before, apparently, and the article mention is what finally pushed them to try to check it out on their own. we'll see if they're back next week. :-)

UU church can be a nice stop-gap measure until (and if) these humanitarian communities are more widely available.

i've heard nothing but good stuff about the UU church(es) in palo alto.

I can understand though if someone wants to counter the religious education their child is getting (due to a religious spouse) that this would be a good thing.

i don't know this to be the case, but i wouldn't suspect that atheism is much of a topic of conversation in the Children's Program ('Sunday School' as the article title calls it). it's not in the regular/adult program.

why put something as important as your child's moral education in the hands of others

i guess if you have an hour of your time to dedicate to a sit-down session of 'moral lessons' for 52 weeks a year - sure, why not? but i suspect parents with kids in these programs know enough about the teachers and programs to trust that the detailed, focussed, and highly-developed lessons their kids will be learning would be a nice _addition_ to the moral values the parents try to instill in their children every day. just a guess, though - i don't have kids.

here is their website:

http://humanists.org/

here are some videos of recent Sunday Forums:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22humanists.org%22&num=10&so=1&start=0

there is lots of good info on the website, but a couple of quick pointers.

here is a brief about what the group calls The Children's Program - not 'Atheist Sunday School':

http://www.humanists.org/children.htm

here is some history on how the program got started:

http://www.humanists.org/chhistory.htm

here is a link to a google map with all the current AHA (American Humanist Association) chapters and affiliates (there is a Canada map, as well):

http://tinyurl.com/3csonb

if you have any questions, there is contact info on the website.

i'm not any kind of spokesperson for the group - just happen to be an internet junkie and i'm extremely excited about what the Humanist Community is doing. i wish i knew about them and groups like them years ago.

cheers.

Other Comments by shmooth

42. Comment #91047 by juandelaforet on November 27, 2007 at 4:57 am

The weekend is for spending time as a family. All week kids have school plus homework and there's not much time to spend properly as a family. If I thought I needed to take my kids to a third party to learn proper "values" or "critical thinking" then I'd have to question my own "values".

Group membership is all very well and has its place and it's good to herd the cats of rationalism however don't force it on the kids, let them *play*!!! Forcing a child into a secular group when they'd rather be having fun is more likely to make the result a negative one just like years of regular Sunday School did for me.

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43. Comment #91061 by Barbara on November 27, 2007 at 6:04 am

@ shmooth:

Thanks for your post. It was very informative.

@ juandelaforet:

I didn't enjoy going to Sunday School as a child either. However, this isn't the typical weekly gathering that you and I remember. You could try it as a family. If the kids tell you they don't want to go anymore then, of course, you can let them stay home. Who knows! Maybe they'll really like it. And, what's bad about making possible life-long friendships in the process?

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44. Comment #91079 by juandelaforet on November 27, 2007 at 6:51 am

I'd love my kids to grow up as atheists. My parents would love my kids to grow up as "believers"(tm). What I'm conciously trying to do is to avoid imposing my viewpoint on them. They're good kids and they're pretty bright kids so all I do is to promote science and questioning without making it into an atheism vs. theism lecture. At the end of the day I think that the arguments against a god(tm) vastly outweigh the arguments for one *however* it's their choice, not mine. I think it's my responsibility as a parent to *equip* my kids to make sensible choices, not to force them one way or the other. There's no way I want my kids to be clones of me (I've got waaaay too many faults!). :-)

I do take on board your comments though and I'm not suggesting for a moment that this is some form of brainwashing anti-god camp. I bet that they're all fantastic people and that it would be a great place to meet some great people.

Despite their obvious delusion there are some really nice and genuine religites out there and it's good to meet them as well....

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45. Comment #91103 by Cartomancer on November 27, 2007 at 8:24 am

Prettygoodformonkeys, comment 39,

I only claim that it's misrepresenting history to call the entire medieval period the "dark ages", or that they were dark because they were ignorant.

I make no claim that we're not headed for a real dark age of blithering theocratic ignorance some time in the future. In the Holy Kingdom of Merica at least...

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46. Comment #91235 by prettygoodformonkeys on November 27, 2007 at 6:03 pm

Cartomancer, #49,

So the "dark ages" is not the dark ages; I understand this, did before, and now I see you do as well.

Uncharacteristically terse, and refreshing!

Cheers!

PGFM

Other Comments by prettygoodformonkeys

47. Comment #91262 by Cartomancer on November 27, 2007 at 8:14 pm

Ooh, sarky...

Mustn't... rise... to... that... one!

Other Comments by Cartomancer

48. Comment #92208 by Thor on November 30, 2007 at 3:59 am

If you want to see how the fundies react to this kind of article, you should go here:
http://albertmohler.com/blog_read.php?id=1061

Albert Mohler is the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary - that pretty much says it all.
He rambles on about how

these atheist Sunday Schools will not be as successful as these parents hope.

because he is convinced that

slogans like "I'm Unique and Unrepeatable" just can't really compete with "Jesus Loves Me."

But here is the best part:

"Children have not yet developed cynicism and, in general, are quite eager to believe in God. Children taught from the Bible in Sunday School learn that they were made by a loving God who cares for them -- and then move on to learn much more about what the Bible teaches. No 'secular parable' can compete with that."

Well, yes, children are indeed eager to believe in God - just as they are eager to believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny...
I know it's a cliché, but it's so TRUE: children WILL believe in absolutely anything, anything at all, as long as it is told by an adult and repeated often enough. They have not yet learned how to think critically. That's exactly why they need a secular education with an emphasis on critical and rational thought.

Other Comments by Thor

49. Comment #92308 by dubbsmalone on November 30, 2007 at 9:03 am

I really don't understand why any of you have a problem with teaching their child that there is no God (or at least: no proof of God). We all believe it's the truth. So why not teach them the truth? Why do so many atheists feel the need to leave children to their own devices? You might as well leave it up to them whether babies come from the stork or the womb! I understand it's very important to teach your child to be open minded but there is an overwhelming mentality out there that there is a God, afterlife, set of rules to follow, etc... Why not teach them what you believe to be right? And as for juandelafort thinking he could structure a better "curriculum" (for lack of a better word) than people who are doing this professionally, then kudos to you juan. My take on it is that it could supplement your own guidance. As far as saying to your child: "Johnny, some people think there is a big superhero in the sky with magic powers that will protect you from harm and let you into his awesome paradise as long as you follow his rules, and some believe there isn't and that you're on your own and when you die, game over." Now I'm being sarcastic, obviously, but I believe that is very near the way it would be construed in a child's subconscious. This could really be, however, the way your devoutly religious next door neighbor would put it to him. I personally had two friends (brothers) that were recruited into the MORMON RELIGION (for goodness sakes) by their neighbor! Now they are in Utah or Missouri or whatever on their required "retreat", how awful. Someone please let me know if I am wrong and provide constructive criticism because I fell very strongly about this.

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