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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 | Reason : Political | print version Print | Comments

Document Mitt the Mormon

by Christopher Hitchens, Slate

Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.slate.com/id/2178568/

WHY ROMNEY NEEDS TO TALK ABOUT HIS FAITH.

MittMitt Romney appears to think that, in respect of the bizarre beliefs of his church, he has come up with a twofer response. Not only can he decline to answer questions about these beliefs, he can also reap additional benefit from complaining that people keep asking him about them. In a video response of revolting sanctimony and self-pity last week, he responded to some allegedly anti-Mormon "push poll" calls in Iowa and New Hampshire by saying that it was "un-American" to bring up his "faith," especially "at a time when we are preparing for Thanksgiving," whatever that had to do with it. Additional interest is lent to this evasive tactic by the very well-argued case, made by Mark Hemingway in National Review Online, that it was actually the Romney campaign that had initiated the anti-Mormon push-poll calls in the first place! What's that? A threefer? Let me count the ways: You encourage the raising of an awkward question in such a way as to make it seem illegitimate. You then strike a hurt attitude and say that you are being persecuted for your faith. This, in turn, discourages other reporters from raising the question. Yes, that's the three-card monte.

According to Byron York, who has been riding around with Romney for National Review, it's working, as well. Most journalists have tacitly agreed that it's off-limits to ask the former governor about the tenets of the Mormon cult. Nor do they get much luck if they do ask: When Bob Schieffer of Face the Nation inquired whether Mormons believe that the Garden of Eden is or was or will be in the great state of Missouri, he was told by Romney to go ask the Mormons! However, we do have the governor in an off-guard moment in Iowa, saying that "The [Mormon] Church says that Christ appears and splits the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. … And then, over a thousand years of the millennium, that the world is reigned in two places, Jerusalem and Missouri. … The law will come from Missouri, and the other will be from Jerusalem."

It ought to be borne in mind that Romney is not a mere rank-and-file Mormon. His family is, and has been for generations, part of the dynastic leadership of the mad cult invented by the convicted fraud Joseph Smith. It is not just legitimate that he be asked about the beliefs that he has not just held, but has caused to be spread and caused to be inculcated into children. It is essential. Here is the most salient reason: Until 1978, the so-called Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was an officially racist organization. Mitt Romney was an adult in 1978. We need to know how he justified this to himself, and we need to hear his self-criticism, if he should chance to have one.

The Book of Mormon, when it is not "chloroform in print" as Mark Twain unkindly phrased it, is full of vicious ingenuity. From it you can learn of the ancient battle of Cumorah, which occurred at a site conveniently near Joseph Smith's home in upstate New York. In this legendary engagement, the Nephites, described as fair-skinned and "handsome," fought against the outcast Lamanites, whose punishment for turning away from God was to be afflicted with dark skin. Later, in antebellum Missouri and preaching against abolition, Smith and his cronies announced that there had been a third group in heaven during the battle between God and Lucifer. This group had made the mistake of trying to remain neutral but, following Lucifer's defeat, had been forced into the world and compelled to "take bodies in the accursed lineage of Canaan; and hence the negro or African race." Until 1978, no black American was permitted to hold even the lowly position of deacon in the Mormon Church, and nor were any (not that there were many applicants) admitted to the sacred rites of the temple. The Mormon elders then had a "revelation" and changed the rules, thus more or less belatedly coming into compliance with the dominant civil rights statutes. The timing (as with the revelation abandoning polygamy, which occurred just in time to prevent Utah from being denied membership of the Union) permits one to be cynical about its sincerity. However that may be, it certainly makes nonsense of Romney's moaning about any criticism or questioning being "un-American." The Mormons have already had to choose—twice—between their beliefs and American values.

Sen. Robert Byrd, D-W.Va., has had to be asked about his long-ago membership of the Ku Klux Klan (which, I would remind you, is also a Protestant Christian identity organization), and he was only a fiddle-playing member, not a Grand Kleagle or whatever the hell it is. Why should Romney not be made to give an account of himself? A black candidate with ties to Louis Farrakhan could expect questions about his faith in the existence of the mad scientist Yakub, creator of the white race, or in the orbiting mother ship visited by the head of the Nation of Islam. What gives Romney an exemption?

There is also the question—this one more nearly resembles the one that John F. Kennedy agreed to answer so straightforwardly in 1960—of authority. The Mormons claim that their leadership is prophetic and inspired and that its rulings take precedence over any human law. The constitutional implications of this are too obvious to need spelling out, but it would be good to see Romney spell them out all the same.

So phooey, say I, to the false reticence of the press and to the bogus sensitivities that underlie it. This extends even to the less important matters. If candidates can be asked to declare their preference as between briefs and boxers, then we already have a precedent, and Romney can be asked whether, as a true believer should, he wears Mormon underwear. What's un-American about that? The bottom line is that Romney should expect to be asked these very important questions, and we should expect him not to obfuscate and whine anymore but to give clear and unambiguous answers to them.

Comments 1 - 50 of 74 |

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1. Comment #91132 by Scott McMeekin on November 27, 2007 at 11:36 am

 avatarSeems reasonable to me that a candidate for running the country should be unafraid about answering questions about any part of his life. But then, I kinda thought it seemed reasonable to require candidates for running the country to be in some way qualified or have some relevant experience for the role, as well - but that doesn't appear to be the case either now does it?

Ho hum.

Scott.

Other Comments by Scott McMeekin

2. Comment #91140 by jaytee_555 on November 27, 2007 at 12:01 pm

Mormon beliefs are not significantly nuttier than run of the mill fundamentalist beliefs, really - just less familiar.

Let's keep up the questioning of ALL religious political wannabees who claim their faith is central to their morality. If it's THAT important to them it's important to us too, since they aspire to be in positions of power over us. Hitch is spot on as usual. We are entitled to answers.

Other Comments by jaytee_555

3. Comment #91141 by maton100 on November 27, 2007 at 12:02 pm

 avatarjosephsmithdidit.

Other Comments by maton100

4. Comment #91143 by Rtambree on November 27, 2007 at 12:09 pm

They all need to answer questions about their beliefs. Mormonism is just as stupid as all the rest.

Other Comments by Rtambree

5. Comment #91145 by GBG on November 27, 2007 at 12:13 pm

 avatarIf only we had known about his unwillingness to talk before 10questions.com votes had closed.

Other Comments by GBG

6. Comment #91147 by BaronOchs on November 27, 2007 at 12:14 pm

 avatarIf all said here is correct it suggests the mormon racism thing is at least a little more complex:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks_and_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

Other Comments by BaronOchs

7. Comment #91151 by USA_Limey on November 27, 2007 at 12:18 pm

 avatarWhilst I agree with Hitchens that Romney must be asked these questions, I don't agree he must be asked them now.

Let's see if he gets the Republican nomination. If he does, that will be the time to stick the boot in.

The Christians will even help us out I'm sure.

Other Comments by USA_Limey

8. Comment #91153 by dbunker on November 27, 2007 at 12:23 pm

If I were Mitt Romney, I'd be reluctant to say too much in public about my beliefs too. Mormon undies? You learn something new every day!

Other Comments by dbunker

9. Comment #91155 by Russell's Teapot on November 27, 2007 at 12:28 pm

 avatarHe won't answer these questions precisely because he's running for the Republican nomination. None of the Gawd-fearing Christian base would much like the answers to these questions, and he knows it. By keeping it off the table, he gets the benefits of not having to deal with being considered a heretical cultist by the base, and being able to play the religious persecution card.

Other Comments by Russell's Teapot

10. Comment #91163 by misanthropic777 on November 27, 2007 at 12:52 pm

Wow - boy did this article rile up a bunch of people over on Slate's site. Most of whom don't get the point that if Romney would TALK about his faith than we could attack the foolishness he actually adheres to as opposed to just picking the cream of the crop of wacky mormon ideas....

Other Comments by misanthropic777

11. Comment #91164 by Shuggy on November 27, 2007 at 12:54 pm

 avatarBaron Ochs:
If all said here is correct it suggests the mormon racism thing is at least a little more complex:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks_and_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints
Sorry, Wikipedia can not be relied on for any controversial topic. Its content gets reduced to a lowest common denominator that everyone can agree on. Otherwise you're at the mercy of whoever vandalised it last.

Other Comments by Shuggy

12. Comment #91166 by nogodsever on November 27, 2007 at 12:58 pm

 avatarJoseph Smith can suck my dick.

Other Comments by nogodsever

13. Comment #91170 by Shuggy on November 27, 2007 at 1:01 pm

 avatarHitch keeps saying Romney was "an adult" in 1978 when the LDSs officially abandoned racism. Googling yields "Date of Birth: 12 March 1947" so he was 31, and had spent 10 years as an adult. May we ask where he stood with respect to the church's policies from 12 March 1968 until it officially abandoned them?

(I don't think that either the Garments nor the loopy stuff about Missouri is here or there.)

Other Comments by Shuggy

14. Comment #91171 by Fedler on November 27, 2007 at 1:03 pm

 avatarnogodsever,

As your comment adding nothing to the discussion in such a vulgar way, I have flagged your comment as offensive. Do try to be a little more intelligent and less flaming in the future.

Other Comments by Fedler

15. Comment #91174 by Diacanu on November 27, 2007 at 1:10 pm

 avatarFedler-

Being a tattle-tale is more obnoxious and schoolyard-brat than what nogodsever said.

Pull the stick out. I shrugged his comment off with no trouble. I didn't need you to protect my delicate sensibilities.

Other Comments by Diacanu

16. Comment #91175 by Diacanu on November 27, 2007 at 1:12 pm

 avatarUSA_Limey-

Let's see if he gets the Republican nomination.


Hell no. Nip him in the bud now, says I.

Other Comments by Diacanu

17. Comment #91176 by BaronOchs on November 27, 2007 at 1:15 pm

 avatarYes I suppose so Shuggy.

Also I don't think nogodsever was offensive, just factually incorrect, I mean the guy has been dead a while.

Other Comments by BaronOchs

18. Comment #91179 by ordeneus on November 27, 2007 at 1:27 pm

People seem to be so defensive over this religion. As if explaining his beliefs were a treasonous request!

When did you cease to hold racist views?
What has primacy, the constitution or your religion?

The rest (magic underpants etc), is stooopid, but, not that important I guess.

Other Comments by ordeneus

19. Comment #91182 by Diacanu on November 27, 2007 at 1:33 pm

 avatarI'd ask him about the magic underwear.

And I'd put a Norm MacDonald voice on when I did it.

"So ehhh....are yah wearing the uh...y'know, the magic underwear there? *smirk*".

Other Comments by Diacanu

20. Comment #91184 by liberalartist on November 27, 2007 at 1:52 pm

 avatarWhen I visit my mormon relatives in Utah (I was raised Catholic)I am always creeped out. The whole state has this creepy-conforming-cultish feel to it. I wouldn't want to live there.

As for candidates explaining their beliefs, ordeneus said it right: "What has primacy, the constitution or your religion?"
That is exactly what every candidate should be asked!

Romney chose to be a member of the Republican-party of god, so I see no reason why he should not have to answer questions about his religion. I don't think he will get the nomination because his religion creeps most people out when they find out the details. The more time they have to think about it, the more he will fall behind.

Now, can we start questioning the weird beliefs of christian politicians and make them accountable for all their bullshit?!

Other Comments by liberalartist

21. Comment #91185 by CJ22 on November 27, 2007 at 1:59 pm

 avatarLet him, like Tony Blair, hide his beliefs. This is a tacit admission that there is something to hide - that the beliefs are derisory or tendentious.

Other Comments by CJ22

22. Comment #91186 by Corylus on November 27, 2007 at 2:05 pm

 avatarNothing wrong with going commando.

OK, no magic spells, but also no VPL in the photoshoot.

...Just sayin'...

Other Comments by Corylus

23. Comment #91191 by thelogogryph on November 27, 2007 at 2:32 pm

 avatarIf a person's faith is relevant to how they would hold office, I think you have to consider it fair game for discussion.

On a separate note, there's a streaming documentary about Mormons (mostly their history, not so much their beliefs) at the link below. It's sad, funny, interesting and a little disturbing. I recommend it, if you have a bit of time to kill.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/view/

Other Comments by thelogogryph

24. Comment #91197 by Dr Benway on November 27, 2007 at 2:48 pm

 avatar
Corylus: OK, no magic spells, but also no VPL in the photoshoot.
Speaking of, I caught a rerun of Space 1999 recently and was reminded of the surprising quantity of polyester in those days. Couple of the cuter dudes have no VLP. One's Jewish.

Needless to say, the future isn't what it used to be.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

25. Comment #91198 by USA_Limey on November 27, 2007 at 2:48 pm

 avatarComment #91175 by Diacanu:

Hell no. Nip him in the bud now, says I.


He needs to get nipped alright no argument there. I'm only saying it's perhaps better to keep the powder dry on any attacks on his mormonism so that if he does become the nominee you can take him out then.

I'm talking to you democrats out there. Rudy would be a real threat to Hilary or Obama, but alot of Republicans have real problems with him. If you want a Democrat in the Whitehouse you might want Romney to be running against the Democrat. Then you can take out his legs over his cult beliefs and the Christians, idiots that they are, would vote for a third candidate.

Just saying. I can't stand any of them but I'm an atheist libertarian so what can I say I'll have to travel back in time and vote for Jefferson because that's the only chance I'll ever get of getting my kind of guy or gal as a candidate! ;-)

Other Comments by USA_Limey

26. Comment #91199 by knutsondc on November 27, 2007 at 2:50 pm

Back in February, Mitt rather famously stated that we needed a "person of faith" to lead the country. Obviously, he believes that a candidate's faith is relevant to his qualifications for the Presidency. If that's so, then why shouldn't the content of Mitt's faith be "fair game?" What about it makes him better qualified to be President than a candidate who isn't a "person of faith?"

Other Comments by knutsondc

27. Comment #91209 by TheHardProblem on November 27, 2007 at 3:38 pm

---
4. Comment #91143 by Rtambree on November 27, 2007 at 12:09 pm:
They all need to answer questions about their beliefs. Mormonism is just as stupid as all the rest.
---

Exactly! I think what Hitchens is doing here, is laying down a foundation. Hopefully some other (candidate) makes the mistake of defending romney's faith, or faith of a candidate in general. Get the ball rolling!

Other Comments by TheHardProblem

28. Comment #91214 by Duff on November 27, 2007 at 4:18 pm

There are two pertinent things mention in this article that are true about Mormonism and not generally known by non-Mormons.
Mormons do believe that the garden of eden was in Missouri. They also believe that they will someday be summoned to pick up and move to the new Zion, you guessed it, in Missouri. To be very specific, they believe it is in Far West, a town near Independence. That is one of the reasons that Mormons keep a healthy supply of canned goods. Some will say it's in case of emergencies, but I clearly remember being taught it was for an emergency transit back to the garden.

The other thing Mormons believe is that the "priesthood" will someday save the constitution. I forget which "revelation" this was from Joseph Smith, but Mormons have always believed that someday a member of the church will become president of the US. Joseph Smith had declared himself a candidate, but was assassinated. Wow, did god give him the short end of the stick! When Mitt's father, George, became a candidate, Mormons felt the prophesy was going to come to pass and you can believe they really believe it is going to finally happen with Mitt. I fear their hopes are going to be dashed again.

When is god going to get his own president and, no less important, when is HIS team going to win the super bowl?? God can't seem to catch a break.

Other Comments by Duff

29. Comment #91216 by Hobbit on November 27, 2007 at 4:23 pm

 avatarThe truly sad thing about the USA is that you MUST be a person of faith to attain office.

Remind me again how many openly atheist politicians you have in congress (or any major office).

I say go ahead and question all their beliefs. Ask them to prove that their belief is the one true belief and why what others believe is false. After all, this is what all religions claim.

So if they refuse to do this, they are either not true believers of the faith (and therefore lying bastards) and only claiming to be to get into power (which is what all religions are really about anyway), or they are true believers that don't want to openly lie about their true goal of taking their religious views and plans into the highest of office and therefore alienate potential votes that believe in a different brand of bullshit.

Here in Australia, we have just replaced one conservative right wing Christian (Anglican) from the right side of politics with another right wing conservative Christian (Catholic) from the left side of politics. Both claim that their faith will help guide them in leading the country.

Great Sky Smurf help us all!

Other Comments by Hobbit

30. Comment #91217 by Duff on November 27, 2007 at 4:23 pm

One additional thing, if I may.
If Bill Clinton can be asked about his underwear, can't Romney be asked about his? And even more important, can he be asked what he uses to dye his hair...except for his sideburns, of course.

Other Comments by Duff

31. Comment #91222 by upsidedawn on November 27, 2007 at 5:01 pm

 avatar
When I visit my mormon relatives in Utah...I am always creeped out. The whole state has this creepy-conforming-cultish feel to it. I wouldn't want to live there.

I get that same vibe when I'm in Utah. But then, these days, I get the same feeling when I visit my hometown in the Bible Belt.

Interesting that Utah is The Beehive State. That always makes me think of "hive mind."

Other Comments by upsidedawn

32. Comment #91225 by Jaffas85 on November 27, 2007 at 5:06 pm

Journalists should at least be able to ask him about the racist elements of Mormonism.

For instance Romney was 31 years old before Mormonism officially stopped being a 'racist organisation' so how can he justifify that he tolerated or accepted that for so much of his adult life?

And the Book of Mormon genuinely teaches that a group of people that 'went against God' had their skin darkened as punishment? Surely he can be made to answer on that issue at least.

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33. Comment #91236 by prettygoodformonkeys on November 27, 2007 at 6:13 pm

 avatar24. Comment #91197 by Dr Benway,

Pretty saucy, for a 96-year-old, living in the woods and recovering from a hysterectomy!

(BTW: speaking of the future, it's getting us nowhere, fast.)

Other Comments by prettygoodformonkeys

34. Comment #91241 by rar on November 27, 2007 at 6:21 pm

This article is hypocritical to me. Hitchens, Bill Maher, and a variety of other prominent atheists lament the fact religion is tied into politics and strongly discourage America's tendency to vote for Protestant candidates. Romney, a protestant, wants to stick to the issues and doesn't believe his beliefs are a central topic in his campaign. It seems this is what Hitchens would want; keeping beliefs private and separating church from state. This is unless Hitchens just wants to argue both ways because he is angry and not solely on a campaign for rationality.

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35. Comment #91243 by Diacanu on November 27, 2007 at 6:27 pm

 avatarrar-

See post 26 of this thread.
Romney wants it both ways.
He wants to run as "a person of faith", and cash in some votes with it, but when it's question time he wants it to be private.
Sorry, doesn't work that way.

Other Comments by Diacanu

36. Comment #91244 by rar on November 27, 2007 at 6:29 pm

It looks like its working just fine...

Other Comments by rar

37. Comment #91245 by Diacanu on November 27, 2007 at 6:36 pm

 avatarrar-

It looks like its working just fine...


Then it's time for the human race to pack it in.
The experiment failed.

Other Comments by Diacanu

38. Comment #91258 by k1mgy on November 27, 2007 at 8:01 pm

 avatarWillard Mitt, prior to his run for Massachusetts Governor, declared that he was "just looking for a race to enter". Whether it be Governor, Senator, Representative, or Dog Catcher, he cared not. What he needed was a pulpit from which to launch his presidential run. Unfortunately, and mostly thanks to a well-bankrolled P-R campaign, Massachusetts voters took the bait and swallowed the hook.

Willard Mitt the Fraud spent more time absent from his job as Massachusetts governor than any of his predecessors. Why? He was constantly jetting around, sucking for dollars and media and planning for his national stardom.

While he was the Fraud Governor, he first promised that his wacked religious beliefs would not influence his politics. As time passed and his national aspirations solidified his promises were cast aside, hence the swinging in the wind of his positions on basic human rights such as a woman's right to her body, and an adults right to marry.

Here in Massachusetts we're still cleaning up the messes he left behind, and we will soon enough have to abandon the "universal health care" plan he put in place - one that puts an enormous burden on business and sets up the major health insurers with a sweet and guaranteed deal.

Willard Mitt was the Fraud governor. We do NOT need another Fraud president, nor one who belongs to a wacko cult.

Other Comments by k1mgy

39. Comment #91264 by entheogensmurf on November 27, 2007 at 8:48 pm

If a candidate was Muslim I think we ought to know. Therefor they must be required to divulge any information requested.

He only said un-American four times but it felt like many more.

Other Comments by entheogensmurf

40. Comment #91288 by Conrad on November 28, 2007 at 12:56 am

If Mitt is too sly to answer such pressing questions when they are tied to his vacuous religious beliefs, then simply phrase them differently.

"You were associated with a racist organization for about 10 years. What is your explanation for this?"

"Do you or do you not take orders from anyone?"
"If so, do these orders supersede the constitution?"

Done. All that is left in this case is to repeatedly tell him to answer the question.

Other Comments by Conrad

41. Comment #91293 by PJG on November 28, 2007 at 1:37 am

 avatar
34. Comment #91241 by rar on November 27, 2007 at 6:21 pm

This article is hypocritical to me. Hitchens, Bill Maher, and a variety of other prominent atheists lament the fact religion is tied into politics and strongly discourage America's tendency to vote for Protestant candidates.


The problem is that people's behaviour is so often tied in to their beliefs, sometimes inextricably so. It is also what often prompts them to seek power which they can then use against those who do not believe what they do.

As church and state (in the US, though sadly not over here in the UK) should be separate, the one group of people who would make ideal political candidates is excluded. If the law said that no-one with any faith could run for office, at least there would be a reduction of candidates who were scientifically unsophisticated, gullible and/or stupid and at least GWB wouldn't be where he is.

Other Comments by PJG

42. Comment #91299 by Tintern on November 28, 2007 at 2:14 am

It's no surprise that the press have tacitly agreed to give him an easy ride. Look at what they've gone along with for the last two presidential terms. It would be a huge surprise if they suddenly acted like real journalists and guardians of free speech.
Still, it is an ever-present disappointment that for a job as important as this, only nutjobs need apply.
What's needed here is continuous loop TV and internet playing the South Park episode about Mormons. It's brilliant, even if the end sucks.

Other Comments by Tintern

43. Comment #91301 by scooternyc on November 28, 2007 at 2:17 am

 avatarI truly liked Richard Dawkins approach to this subject in The God Delusion and subsequently within the interviews that followed: "why should religion be given any more special treatment or respect than one's political views".

No subject should be off limits if a candidate has brought the subject up in a public forum of any kind.

I have no compulsion to speak against religion in any given situation. However, when an individual makes a "god" or "religious" comment, then he/she has opened the door to editorial from anyone now and in the future, especially if the person believes something such as religion or god is a foundation for their moral guidance.

And I agree with Diacanu, I don't need someone to flag comments as "offensive", let him or her speak freely, it's what America stands for and whether I agree or not with any particular statement, each person has the freedom to speech.

One is only offended when one is looking to be offended. There is no such thing as "offensive speech".

Other Comments by scooternyc

44. Comment #91303 by D'Arcy on November 28, 2007 at 2:19 am

 avatarWhat's the big deal with Romney? Is his brand of mysticism any more pernicious than Bush's or Clinton's? Nixon was a quaker, but it didn't stop him running and escalating the Vietnam war, did it?

If Romney's tactic is to keep his religion a personnal matter, because otherwise it might upset mainstream Christian voters in the USA, then that's a judgment that he has made pragmatically.

I believe Obama and Hilary Clinton are both Christians, surely the most mystical of all the religions.

In Britain, prime minister Brown's government has been caught in a scandal of its own making, where the governing party has been taking money off millionaires and keeping quiet about it in moves to evade the legislation that they, (the Labour Party), brought in to demand full details of monies paid to political parties. Brown is the son of a Scottish presbytarian minister and comes over all devout. For all I know he could well attend wee flea's (David Robertson's) Free Church of Scotland.

Until people can free themselves of the mental chains that all religions impose on believers, then our "leaders" will be able to get away with all sorts of nonsense no doubt in the name of a higher power.

Don't forget God always gets the credit for good things, but we sinners are always to blame for the bad things.

Other Comments by D'Arcy

45. Comment #91313 by jeroen on November 28, 2007 at 2:43 am

Pity, no picture on that website of what the magic underwear actually looks like, just in the plastic bag.

Other Comments by jeroen

46. Comment #91314 by Tyler Durden on November 28, 2007 at 2:43 am

 avatarUSA_Limey:
I'm talking to you democrats out there. Rudy would be a real threat to Hilary or Obama, but alot of Republicans have real problems with him. If you want a Democrat in the Whitehouse you might want Romney to be running against the Democrat. Then you can take out his legs over his cult beliefs and the Christians, idiots that they are, would vote for a third candidate.
There is a theory that Rudi will split the GOP base if he gets the nomination based on his "liberal" views re: abortion, gay rights, divorce. The Evangelicals/Bible Belt won't vote for him in 2008, boom, easy win for Hillary!

Romney seems to tick all the boxes with regard to GOP base values, and is a "person of faith", however weird that faith is. Unfortunately Romney can't seem to fit "9/11" into every single soundbite he gives to the media so will probably lose to Rudi :)

And Hillary to win in 2008 - simply because the US (and the world) needs a rest from 8 years of Bush!!

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

47. Comment #91315 by scooternyc on November 28, 2007 at 2:48 am

 avatarD'Arcy - you bring up a point I've been harping on for months since the AAI 2007 event - BOTH PARTIES are pandering/espousing religious stupidity and should be held accountable.

Just because a candidate agrees with us individually on particular issues, doesn't mean he/she will on every issue.

That said, what kind of pass are we giving these candidates? What rationalizations are voters making to look the other way when having to make this decision?

Both parties will decry the transgressions of their opposition, but will then defend the same behavior from their own side - it's hypocrisy and you'll soon read, hear, observe the pardons being given by those who have more than just mankind in mind when it comes to voting for someone into office.

One thing you can say about liberals and conservatives - they are consistently inconsistent.

Other Comments by scooternyc

48. Comment #91337 by posiedon on November 28, 2007 at 4:46 am

 avatarjeroen
There's a nice picture here.
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_garments.html

Other Comments by posiedon

49. Comment #91340 by AllanW on November 28, 2007 at 5:04 am

 avatarJust to add a comment on the point raised about posts; I agree with Scooternyc. The only two buttons I would consider using on this forum are [troll] and [spam]; it's impossible to offend me with any comments. I may think they are unjustified, original, irrelevant, well-turned, unsubstantiated or appealing but they are not offensive to me. However, I recognise that not everyone responds this way ... which tells me a little more about them than it does the comment that induced the reaction.

Other Comments by AllanW

50. Comment #91349 by mikeshin on November 28, 2007 at 5:38 am

Indidel Guy has a great podcast in which he interviews a former Mormon. Gives a good picture of why we do not want them in government anywhere, ever.

http://infidelguy.libsyn.com/

Other Comments by mikeshin
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