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Wednesday, November 28, 2007 | Reason : Science of Religion | print version Print | Comments

Document Islam and the modern world don't mix

by Joan Smith, The Independent

Reposted from:
http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/joan_smith/article3201543.ece

joanGillian Gibbons sounds like a nice woman. She is in her 50s, a teacher from Liverpool with grown-up children, and earlier this year she decided to put her experience to use in one of the most troubled parts of Africa. In August, she started teaching at an independent primary school in Sudan, where she seems to have been popular with her young pupils; she followed a national curriculum course designed to teach them about animals and asked a seven-year-old girl to bring her teddy bear into class.

Everything seemed to be going well until last weekend, when Ms Gibbons was arrested and found herself in prison in Khartoum, accused of a crime so horrendous that it carries a penalty of up to six months in jail or 40 lashes. Her "offence" was to name the teddy bear after the Prophet, even though the name was chosen by her young charges themselves. According to the school's director, Robert Boulos, the children came up with eight names and voted overwhelmingly for Mohamed.

Several parents promptly complained to the authorities, leading to Ms Gibbons' arrest on Sunday. The state-controlled media centre in Sudan reported that charges were being prepared under article 125 of the criminal code, which covers insults against faith and religion.

Once again, secular people around the world are left reeling at the capacity of Islam to discern "insult" in the most innocuous behaviour. At one level, this sequence of events is preposterous; I'm sure there are plenty of genuine crimes to worry about in Sudan without wasting time pursuing a woman whose good intentions are manifest.

But the significance of the case goes beyond the individuals concerned, highlighting aspects of Islam as it is currently practised in countries such as Sudan and Saudi Arabia – and promoted in some European mosques – which are incompatible with the modern world. One is the role of honour, which has repeatedly been used to legitimise furious over-reactions to everything from the naming of a toy to instances of women and gay people demanding autonomy over their bodies.

Ever since the outcry over The Satanic Verses nearly two decades ago, I have watched Muslim men (they almost always are men) use the claim that their honour has been insulted as an excuse for disgraceful and frequently criminal behaviour. Salman Rushdie "insults" the Prophet: burn his books. Danish cartoonists display a lack of respect for Islam: attack Danish embassies. A British Muslim girl wants to marry the "wrong" man: kill her for shaming the family. A Saudi rape victim complains that her attackers got off too lightly: increase her sentence (for being in a car with a man who wasn't her husband) to 200 lashes.

In the latter instance, Saudi officials have responded to an international outcry by claiming that the woman has admitted an extra-marital affair and therefore the sentence is fully justified. She has "confessed to doing what God has forbidden", according to a statement on Monday from the Saudi justice ministry, which also attacked "foreign interference" in the case. The Saudis have not been driven to use such punishments by the Iraq war, and they are not untypical of sentences passed in other countries under Islamic law.

The stark fact is that the notion of "honour" and the violence linked to it cannot co-exist with the modern idea of universal human rights. It encourages men to create oppressive laws which do not recognise individual liberties, and to break the law in states where those liberties have been acknowledged.

I have never claimed that Islam is the only religion that does this, and there are anomalies in British law – the archaic offence of blasphemy is an example – which reminds us of a time when Christians reacted just as violently to what they perceived as "insults". In the past, Catholics and Protestants took turns to slaughter each other as Sunni and Shia are doing now, but Christianity has to a large extent been secularised. Not as much as I'd like – there's still a way to go on homosexuality and abortion – but there is no doubt that the influence of Christian churches has dramatically declined.

At the heart of this process is an alteration in the status of religious texts. The Old Testament is full of hair-raising injunctions and barbaric punishments but I don't know anyone, apart from a few extremists on the Christian right, who takes it seriously. The idea that a single book written centuries ago has unique authority – in effect, a veto over all other ideas – makes no sense in societies where intellectual curiosity is valued and encouraged.

Yesterday Inayat Bunglawala, assistant general secretary of the Muslim Council of Britain, criticised the arrest of Ms Gibbons in Sudan and described it as a "quite horrible misunderstanding". But during a public debate in London two weeks ago, he refused my invitation to condemn unequivocally the practice of stoning women to death for adultery. It had happened during the lifetime of the Prophet, he said, "so you are asking me to condemn my Prophet".

This is a very clear example of the pre-modern and modern sensibilities clashing head-on. No book or person has a monopoly on truth, and I certainly don't regard Muhammad, Jesus or Marx as beyond criticism. But while Muslim scholars are prepared to argue about interpretation, they have this in common: they all agree on the primacy of the Qu'ran and the hadith.

Even the suggestion that the text needs to be reformed, which she has denied making, was sufficient to force Taslima Nasreen to flee her home country, Bangladesh, and seek refuge in Sweden. She recently moved to India, hoping to find more tolerant attitudes among Indian Muslims, and is now being hounded from one city to another by angry mobs.

It is not enough in these circumstances to claim that Islam is a religion of peace, and dismiss all the things non-Muslims don't like – honour killings, relentless assaults on free speech, and now an accusation of blasphemy related to a teddy bear – as aberrations. The mores of the seventh century have no relevance in modern life, especially in the arena of sex where decisions about who to sleep with are widely regarded as a personal matter.

The damage that is being inflicted daily on the image of Islam doesn't come from people like me, who are constantly accused of Islamophobia, but practices such as forced marriage, honour killings and heated denunciations of "Western" values. I can't think of any secular country where a rape victim or a well-meaning British teacher would find themselves threatened with flogging.

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1. Comment #91286 by Fanusi Khiyal on November 28, 2007 at 12:45 am

What I've been saying all along.


Yesterday Inayat Bunglawala, assistant general secretary of the Muslim Council of Britain, criticised the arrest of Ms Gibbons in Sudan and described it as a "quite horrible misunderstanding". But during a public debate in London two weeks ago, he refused my invitation to condemn unequivocally the practice of stoning women to death for adultery. It had happened during the lifetime of the Prophet, he said, "so you are asking me to condemn my Prophet".


Surprised? He is uswa husana, al-insal al-kamil. You're just a kaffir woman. That's what this boils down to.

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

2. Comment #91289 by Philip1978 on November 28, 2007 at 1:07 am

 avatarI actually thought this article was very good, I totally agree that these idiots cannot see the barbaric and oppressive effect their religion has and fob it all off with ridiculous claims of insults to their "honour".
It doesn't matter how nasty or violent the reaction, it doesn't matter how insignificant the crime is- they have the right to kill, maim and destroy everything.

Fanusi, I agree with you there old friend, people like that Inayat Bunglawala are a real danger to society. They lie, obfuscate and generally get away with saying shit like that because of this supposed authority that his religion allows. They say one thing then the other, picking and choosing more ingenious ways to be a complete hypocrite. Makes me shudder it really does, good article though, very thought provoking

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

3. Comment #91290 by Quetzalcoatl on November 28, 2007 at 1:18 am

 avatarAt least with Christianity you can actually insult and question Jesus. I suppose Islam's utter refusal to allow any questioning of Muhammad is a decent survival strategy for a religion, but it leads to a lot of religious and cultural inertia. Look at Islamic countries today by way of example.

As for Bunglawala, I can't stand him. If (Gods forbid) Sharia law ever did get imposed in Britain, you just know he'd be right out there stoning adulterers and calling for thieves' hands to be cut off.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

4. Comment #91291 by drgsr on November 28, 2007 at 1:27 am

The Indian government has announced that Taslima would be given shelter if she desists from hurting religious sentiments. This in a Hindu majority country!. As usual the motley crowd who makes the maximum din gets away with it

Other Comments by drgsr

5. Comment #91295 by brainsys on November 28, 2007 at 1:55 am

I worry about how we react to the incidents. My reaction to these events is the usual incredulousness.

But more important, surely, is the reaction of the ordinary 'man in the mosque'. How does he (and it is a he) feel about it when he worships within a secular society like the UK?

Some will share our view, some will, as always follow the religious right. But what of those in the middle? We have to remember that people are human as well as religious. Attack them, their society or whatever and the natural knee jerk reaction comes into play. The Daily Mail/Fanusi approach plays straight into the hands of people determined to show their religion/life is under real threat in a way that leaves them little choice.

The alternative. Well I think I can already hear Fanusi accusing me of appeasement. And it real question. How does one say this behaviour is unacceptable - that any imposition of any God's law on those they do not freely subscribe is not tenable here and should not be tenable there. How do we give space to the muslim in the mosque to consider these conflicts and try and find a way to accommodate his faith with a secular society.

I know its dangerous to say that has been achieved with most Christians and some other faiths. Some people say Islam is different. Well all faiths are different but one can say that many Muslims were able to live comfortably withiu other societies for many years.

In the UK the increase in fundamentalist/jihad belief has risen dramatically in recent years. It isn't because Islam has changed (it is not supposed to) it is a combination of changes - some in our society and some to do with control of theirs. This gives me hope that it can be reversed .

Is this to be a fight for hearts and minds or for bodies? Have we all really given up hope?

Other Comments by brainsys

6. Comment #91296 by tieInterceptor on November 28, 2007 at 2:02 am

 avatarexcelent article, I totally agree.

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7. Comment #91297 by Fanusi Khiyal on November 28, 2007 at 2:06 am

Well I think I can already hear Fanusi accusing me of appeasement.


Actually, I'd accuse you of obfuscation. The polls we have show that the average man in the Mosque has a fifty-fifty chance of being a supporter of Shariah law.

We've already given them more than enough 'space', that's the root of the problem.

Some people say Islam is different


It is. It's a form of government, first and foremost, a way to organise society. Islam is Shariah law.


Well all faiths are different but one can say that many Muslims were able to live comfortably withiu other societies for many years.


Name those societies. No baseless assertions, please.


It isn't because Islam has changed (it is not supposed to) it is a combination of changes - some in our society and some to do with control of theirs. This gives me hope that it can be reversed .
.

Correct. We have grown weaker, more willing to accomodate Islamic bullying, and have lost confidence in the superiority of our culture and way of life. They, on the other hand, have grwon more numerous, thanks to the suicidal policy of allowing millions of Muslims to settle in the Dar al-Harb.

And, yes, that can be reveresed. If people are willing to take a look at the truth about Islam.


Is this to be a fight for hearts and minds or for bodies? Have we all really given up hope?


It can be either. I keep harping on the fact that if we do not engage in a stiff fight for minds now, and that will require a certain amount of force brought to bear, we will find ourselves in total and absolute war.

We still have the chance to get out of this mess on the cheap. That chance is rapidly vanishing.

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

8. Comment #91300 by villageidiot on November 28, 2007 at 2:15 am

 avatarIt's good to see that at least some people are talking sense.

Other Comments by villageidiot

9. Comment #91302 by Fanusi Khiyal on November 28, 2007 at 2:18 am

Noticed a mispelling in my first post. It should be:

uswa-hasana, al-insan al-kamil

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

10. Comment #91310 by Nick Good on November 28, 2007 at 2:35 am

 avatarGood article; and in the Independent of all places!

Islam's 'share price' is definitely taking a tumble in Kuffardom. I think that's a good thing, it's simply a manifestation of the feedback loop of democracy.

Mind you, I'm not sure that this isn't a Zionist, Crusader, Neocon, conspiracy; to sell more of Ayaan Hirsi Ali's books! The same dastardly conspiricy that fully half of UK Muslims think did 9/11.

Other Comments by Nick Good

11. Comment #91323 by Philip1978 on November 28, 2007 at 3:40 am

 avatarbrainsys

I am actually inclined to agree with Fanusi on this one, with idiots like Bunglawala around obfuscating to his heart's desire I can't see things improving.

Christianity etc has been mellowed to a certain degree out here, Islam I feel will not mellow for a heck of long time -its too volatile and strict to want to. Plus it is still encouraging hate around the country - look at those mosques that were recently investigated just for one example. They are still being encouraged to hate anything that is not Islam and that should worry you. This is not Daily Mail type knee jerk reaction, this is a very real threat.

Obviously I still hold hope that things will improve and its always possible it can. It is clear that some Muslims are slowly coming around to discarding the strict rules Islam imposes, but the majority still are still highly influenced and willing to follow.

I went to school with some of those bomb makers who were caught in High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire - It was a good school that I think produced very level headed pupils (Modest Me!)Yet a few of those students were seen celebrating the 9/11 disaster when it happened, then you see a couple of them were arrested a few years later. Ok, this is just one example but something tells me that integration has still got a long way to go and Fanusi is right when he says that if we do not engage in a stiff fight for minds now, trouble will continue to brew.

People like Bunglawala should not have the majority opinion and influence in this country spouting the rubbish they do, they are dangerous bullies who need to be seen for what they are and that these young men should not be following in their footsteps.


Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

12. Comment #91324 by mrjonno on November 28, 2007 at 3:46 am

Honour killings : You don't need religion for this, organised crime/gangsters have been killing over this for years. Majority of 'black on black' killings in the uk are due to 'disrespect'

I went to a meeting once with a very respected educated Muslim scholar. He said if someone insulted your wife, your family your children would that not make you angry and want to fight back.

This really made understand how little the islamic mind understands the west. If someone insults your wife it does NOT allow you to respond with violence. Your only legal options are to insult them back or to walk away.

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13. Comment #91326 by brainsys on November 28, 2007 at 3:51 am

Fanusi says "The polls we have show that the average man in the Mosque has a fifty-fifty chance of being a supporter of Shariah law."

And rising? That's just the point. 50% presumably didn't believe in Shariah Law or found a way to accommodate it within a secular community. Just as most christians vow three impossible things in the creed yet have no problem ignoring it when 'off-campus'. Duality in religious/secular life is not a problem for most of the people most of the time. How else can a female catholic take the pill? And they do.

Fanusi asks what societies have Muslims lived comfortably alongside other faith and none. Well the ones I lived in until comparatively recently. It is just this fast radicalisation that is the threat here and abroad. Muslim girls who wore jeans, drank and enjoyed the usual pleasures went in six months through head scarves to the full works. This was not a change in Islam. It was a change in how Islam was perceived.

"Islam is a system of government" - A damned poor one compared to the RC Church whose leader ruled absolutly in Europe for centuries as the sole mediator between God & King. What caliphate can compare? This was eventually unsustainable. Desire for divorces was one of the more trivial ways this control was overthrown by Kings who then became God's representative for their people. And so people overthrew their divine Kings - or constitutionalised them (cf leaving their genitals intact).

Our Queen is Defender of the (Christian) Faith, Head of the established Church of England. Annoying I know but no real threat to my freedom of thought or action - unlike my secular government!

I never quite understand whether Fanusi thinks Islam can be removed from the planet, muslims can be forcibly converted or presumably exterminated. I wouldn't rate this as doable as the odd Vice President didn't say. Just as exterminating all non-muslims is extremely iffy.

Real hope, I suggest, is that Islam can sort itself in rather fewer centuries then it took the christian world. The question here is whether our actions are helping or hindering reform from within Islam.

Getting the Sudan government to realise that this episode is damned stupid is a good start. Mumblings from their ambassador (normally a very reactionary guy) suggest a little bit of reality is there. Its that dodgy thing of getting the Sudan government to act but giving them a bit of wiggle room to preserve a bit of misguided dignity.

Its perhaps a western thing that we are currently paying more attention to this event (a sincere woman detained for a few days) more than the Sudan's Government's murderous activities in Darfur. That's probably as much human territorial greed as it is religious.

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14. Comment #91327 by GBG on November 28, 2007 at 3:57 am

 avatarThese people are primitive animals and i am sick of them.

I hope we don't validate their brutal behaviour by trying to have any kind of dialogue with them. We need to tell them that either they can release her free of charge or we will send people to get her out. Simple as that.

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15. Comment #91328 by MartinSGill on November 28, 2007 at 3:59 am

 avatarIt's well known that in the Koran Mohammed took a nine-year-old girl as his wife (one of many) and in our society today that would make him a paedophile. Does that mean Mr. Bunglawala refuses to condemn paedophilia and child abuse as it would be "asking [him] to condemn [his] prophet"?

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16. Comment #91331 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on November 28, 2007 at 4:14 am

 avatarThe damage that is being inflicted daily on the image of Islam doesn't come from people like me, who are constantly accused of Islamophobia, but practices such as forced marriage, honour killings and heated denunciations of "Western" values. I can't think of any secular country where a rape victim or a well-meaning British teacher would find themselves threatened with flogging

The way forward is to relentlessly highlight the lunacy, and insist the representatives of Islam explain it. They should not be able to appear in public with being challenged on these issues.

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17. Comment #91333 by brainsys on November 28, 2007 at 4:18 am

Philip said "with idiots like Bunglawala around obfuscating to his heart's desire I can't see things improving."

I dunno how many poiliticians/leaders you have got drunk with but you do usually find a mixture of some who believe passionately in something despite the evidence and those that say - "Yep, you are right but I daren't say so in public".

So I never know whether stuff that spews out of the MCB is what they believe or what they say they believe in order to keep their position (either for greed or to do good despite it).

Which is why its important to create an atmosphere which doesn't force participants to defend otherwise impossible or deeply dividing positions. That's ruining our politics. It can do worse in a religious context.

If I criticise Fanusi for Islam bashing it isn't a defence of Islam. We are mostly here because we see religion as an irrational way of seeing the world which will end in tears. Islam might be on the front foot in demonstrating this in action. But pointing this out again and again gets us nowhere.

Frankly at the moment we can't crack the soft left of the christian world so what hope have we with Islam? Paradoxically it may be Christian leaders who can get traction with the mullahs as that recent initiative suggested. But I note that idea was widely ridiculed here.

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18. Comment #91343 by phasmagigas on November 28, 2007 at 5:18 am

 avataryoung muslim men in the UK do what many young men in the west do, the rebel against something.

For a non muslim male this might last a few years and centers around rejecting authority it may be violent or simply means he uses drugs for a few years or just wears clothes different to his parents. Either way when he looks back he might consider those behavious a bit juvenile and foolish.

The difference with muslim males is that they are reacting against authority and the general populace who do not share their religion, and as it is religion that defines most of them (and i challenge you to ask a muslim male 'who are you?' and not have 'muslim' mentioned very quickly) with its innate unquestioned authority and its acceptence by peers and importantly the older section of a community and you have an extended rebellion that has no aspect of wrongness attached to it, somehow its connection to divinity makes it absolutely justified.

An american family member of mine spent time in the UK and spent time daily within a large muslim community area and I was actually afraid for that person, i advised them to not advertise their nationaily to loudly and I felt quite sure i wasnt being overly cautious.

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19. Comment #91353 by Philip1978 on November 28, 2007 at 5:45 am

 avatarThankfully the number of politicians I have been drunk with is zero! :)

I sort of agree with you there, but don't you think the government and people like Bunglawala are arsing the situation up considerably and not helping in the slightest bit? Giving credence to such idiotic rubbish only allows for people like Abu Hamza to keep claiming he is a victim and demanding all sorts of rights that he doesnt deserve.

You are absolutely right, this is ruining our politics, I hope I got this right (please correct me if I am wrong), Fanusi is saying that the influence of Islam - the want to have Sharia Law in place of British Law etc- should be ousted now. I understand your concerns about how it could divide things wildly but from my understanding of the situation pandering to and giving way to all these attempts to undermine British Law is dangerous. I am no BNP fanatic, neither do I wish harm to come to anyone but if this rubbish continues other innocent people will be affected.

Being diplomatic as I can be I rather feel that you and Fanusi have similar points of view on this, I think that Fanusi is just more concerned about the outcome of the situation and so am I. I too grew up in a relatively quiet area, now look at High Wycombe and tell me the difference to how it was a good 20 years ago.

Islam has made the changes, more demands are being made for their religious rights to be "honoured"
Islam is being perceived differently, if it wasn't for the likes of Sam Harris or Professor Dawkins - even you can make a difference- people would not be perceiving it in the same way. Islam will never change- it is a constant- people's views on it however are changing and the submissive respect that it once had is not the same any more.

I rather feel the best way is to stand up to it, surely you know how to deal with a bully? You don't let the bully win, you teach them the error of their ways by showing them they are not allowed to dominate and that there are reasonable alternatives despite what they think they can demand. Religious bullying has to stop, I am sick of hearing about how I should respect a religion that encourages violence and submission to a startlingly bad degree if read the wrong way. Then you have people like Bunglawala or Tony Blair or Midlands Police force making the situation more difficult - people like Bunglawala especially who say one thing and the other claiming they are moderates and that Islam is peace etc. Its bollocks, it is simply giving the bully more ammunition and authority and this bothers me.

I don't want the Christians gaining any ground in this either, its religion against religion - how can they agree on anything when they revere different gods? It would just give credence to something completely pointless - I would rather this is sorted out so religious authority has no credibility in important matters.

Hope that explains things a bit more, I think you have a good set of points there but don't be so hard on Fanusi as I think he also has got something very serious and helpful to say about how things look.

Can't we all just be friends? :)

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

20. Comment #91357 by Fouad Boussetta on November 28, 2007 at 6:14 am

 avatarExcellent title.
A short sentence that says it all. :)

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21. Comment #91359 by brainsys on November 28, 2007 at 6:27 am

Philip. Interesting to read of your High Wycombe experience. My daughter went to school with the shoe bomber in Greenwich. Also a west indian convert. But I don't think it unfair to say he makes a sad hero for the jihadists and poor hate figure for the forces of good. He was a loser who was always going to get conned by someone. Thankfully too incompetent to succeed.

Re Sharia courts in the UK? Did you hear the Radio 4 play about a fictional example? Brilliantly showing that the political consequences quite dwarfed the religious content. Sitting up special religious courts. Absolutely not. Even if it was voluntary. Social pressures can negate that by pressuring 'muslim in name only' to submit or 'come out'.

Re Fanusi. I suppose my issue is precisely that with friendship. For me it transcends religious affiliation. I have real difficulty with Christian & Muslim fundamentalists but others I find much nicer and more rational than some atheists. Fanusi gives me the impression of seeing people as Muslim first and human second. That the best are tarred with the sins of the worst. Perhaps I am over reacting. I really don't want to make an enemy of anyone. Well - I've yet to meet Dinesh ;-)

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22. Comment #91361 by Quetzalcoatl on November 28, 2007 at 6:38 am

 avatarSince we're sharing-

some of you may remember a few months ago there was a demo in London in which an Asian man dressed as a suicide bomber. There was a lot of media coverage on it. I went to school with him!

Small world, isn't it?

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23. Comment #91363 by Lil_Xunzian on November 28, 2007 at 6:46 am

In any society with its head firmly and squarely stapled to its shoulders, people who were insulted because a teddy bear was named after the founder of a system of fictional concepts would be thrown into an insane asylum.

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24. Comment #91365 by AdrianB on November 28, 2007 at 6:53 am

 avatarJust to highlight what a tricky crossroads we find ourselves in, I find myself reading the comments of both Fanusi and brainsys and agreeing with you simultaneously!

And it is a crossroads.

When I was at school I can count on one hand the number of Muslims in my year, and yet their religion was never an issue and they fitted seamlessly into our way of life.

Now my children go to the same school, and it is about 25% Muslim, it is obvious to me that multiculturism has failed for the following reasons:

The friendships formed in primary school between Muslim and non-Muslim males slowly disappear as the children move up through the years. It is there to see in the groups of young males that "hang around on the street corners." Even on my road, which is as middle-class as is possible, you will witness groups of males that are totally Muslim, and another 200 yards away there will be a group of non-Muslim males. You can feel the tensions being stoked between these two different groups.

It's a though there is some sort of comfort in numbers, if you are a minority below a certain %age you will integrate, but above it and you will not. It worries me a lot.

Other Comments by AdrianB

25. Comment #91368 by jimbob on November 28, 2007 at 7:08 am

Lashes for the rape victim, now the same for the teddy bear lady! Then, when you thought it couldn't get any nuttier we get the "Turkey Delusion!":

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/11/28/dawkins.turkey.ap/index.html

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26. Comment #91369 by irate_atheist on November 28, 2007 at 7:17 am

 avatar25. Comment #91368 by jimbob -

And this in a country that wants to join the EU?

Well, they can certainly fuck off.

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27. Comment #91383 by Alkal on November 28, 2007 at 7:37 am

The Taslima Nasrin case in India i even more politically charged than it appears.The reason she is in India is because of the Hindu majority who will do all they can to denounce Islam, even while creating a religious theocracy on their own- remember their batty behavior for the shooting of the film "Water" or the cleansing of the Guuvayoor temple because a Christian had stepped in.

There are layers and layers

Lets just ban ALL religion.

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28. Comment #91396 by Fanusi Khiyal on November 28, 2007 at 8:30 am

brainsysy you are making a common mistake, namely here:


"Islam is a system of government" - A damned poor one compared to the RC Church whose leader ruled absolutly in Europe for centuries as the sole mediator between God & King. What caliphate can compare? This was eventually unsustainable. Desire for divorces was one of the more trivial ways this control was overthrown by Kings who then became God's representative for their people. And so people overthrew their divine Kings - or constitutionalised them (cf leaving their genitals intact


The Roman Catholic church has never held political power directly - that is, it has never ruled directly. There is a division between church and state that is implied in the sentence "Render unto Caesar...". It is that wierd twist of luck that we owe our secularism to.

Islam has always ruled directly. You say its done a poor job - how on earth is that so? It ruled directly, laying down the Shariah, calling for war. Every Caliphate in its history, from the Hijrah to the Ottomans, has been ruled by it.

Islam's rule has always been far, far stronger, and more terrible than that of Christianity. It took a thousand years to extricate ourselves from a religion founded by a pacifist - what is it going to be like trying to extricate ourselves from a religion founded by a tyrant and warlord?

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29. Comment #91404 by tieInterceptor on November 28, 2007 at 8:38 am

 avatar
Islam's rule has always been far, far stronger, and more terrible than that of Christianity. It took a thousand years to extricate ourselves from a religion founded by a pacifist - what is it going to be like trying to extricate ourselves from a religion founded by a tyrant and warlord?


totally agree,

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

30. Comment #91425 by Vinelectric on November 28, 2007 at 9:21 am

 avatarFK

He is uswa husana, al-insal al-kamil


By the way "insal" means ejaculation. I think you meant "insan". You don't know Arabic so stop parroting.

Other Comments by Vinelectric

31. Comment #91429 by Vinelectric on November 28, 2007 at 9:28 am

 avatar
The stark fact is that the notion of "honour" and the violence linked to it cannot co-exist with the modern idea of universal human rights.



Very true indeed.

Something's not right about the story though. I know the Sudanese and their out-of-this-world religious stupidity but I am skeptic that the teacher was arrested just because the teddy bear was called Muahmmad.

I studied in that particular school. You'd send your child specifically to that institution if you don't want them to be indoctrinated in any of the state run schools. Almost all of the people I knew where either secular or quasi-religious.

I actually know the prinicpal's family personally so I'll ask him how the misunderstanding came about but there is no way I'll just swallow that story without a good serving of salt.

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32. Comment #91435 by robotaholic on November 28, 2007 at 9:50 am

 avatarblast muslims with britany or 40 lashes with lui vuitton

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33. Comment #91437 by Vinelectric on November 28, 2007 at 9:53 am

 avatarOK now I've just heard that the poor woman was officially charged. What a let down. The Sudanese government is more fragile than ever and I don't know why no one clever enough to forsee the impending political backlash hasn't warned the idiots not to resolve this peacefully.

What a shame.

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34. Comment #91438 by Gymnopedie on November 28, 2007 at 9:57 am

A great article. Quite exceptional.

It baffles me that some people are afraid to condemn the 200 lashes or this incident outright. It seems some issues people might tip-toe around, but with something this obvious, all I can say is "Huh?". If I lived in one of these countries I would have been executed or jailed long ago. It is absolutely disturbing to contemplate living in a society where something so benign is regarded as so malignant and criminal.

Am I the only one who feels like they are reading a twisted version of Alice in Wonderland in all these articles? Naming Teddy Bears certain names will get you in serious trouble, but "honor" killing your daughter who has been raped, A-Okay!

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35. Comment #91439 by Vinelectric on November 28, 2007 at 10:01 am

 avatarFanusi K:

It can be either. I keep harping on the fact that if we do not engage in a stiff fight for minds now, and that will require a certain amount of force brought to bear, we will find ourselves in total and absolute war.


The enlightened West has been doing this all along. Nuke the Japanese, wreck Iraq apart, support religious fundamentalists in Israel.... nothing's really changed. Not the most ambitious of Islamists can outdo the enlightened west's bodycount.

Dar-ul-Harb my butt!

Only humanists canc claim the moral highground. Most of the rest are as filthy as the Islamists.

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36. Comment #91453 by Fanusi Khiyal on November 28, 2007 at 10:54 am

Why am I not surprised that at what comes crawling out here. Here's a little reality pill for the likes of Vin: Just one of the genocides that Islam is repsonsible for is the murder of seventy million Hindus during the time of Muslim rule.

And it is the Muslims who have destroyed Iraq, in accordance with their own religious doctrines, and Israel is fighting for its existence against Islam.

As to the rest of this dimwits lies, I refer you to Ibn Warraq's excellent "Defending the West", a book everyone should read.


Edit:

I found the following, which I am surprised not to see up here on richarddawkins.net:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03OhSgLlETY&feature=related

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37. Comment #91495 by Jolly Bloger on November 28, 2007 at 1:02 pm

 avatarThis is one of the sickest stories I have heard in a long time. My extended reaction is here:
http://jollybloger.blogspot.com/2007/11/sudan-charges-uk-teacher-with-insulting.html

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38. Comment #91627 by brainsys on November 28, 2007 at 5:48 pm

Fanusi wrote "There is a division between church and state that is implied in the sentence "Render unto Caesar...". It is that wierd twist of luck that we owe our secularism to."

Render unto Cesar was the words of a lone preacher in an occupied territory finding a clever way of saving his own neck under hostile questioning (if we believe the biblical account). Suggesting that this was how the average medieval monarch regarded his 'state' (a word quite foreign to most of them) is rather an idiosynchratic view of history.

All in all your reading of history does appear as self serving as many preachers reading of the bible (and presumably mullahs reading of the Koran). Your views don't seem to reflect the complexity of reality. On this Sudan issue the old hands admit they really don't understand the power plays being played out over this woman. It seems strange an unemployed student can see things so much more clearly...

Take care.

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39. Comment #91630 by automath on November 28, 2007 at 6:19 pm

 avatarWell yes, Inayat Bunglawala would say that wouldn't he, he's one of the faithfully misplaced mohammedians.

You get called Islamophobic for pointing out the obvious these days. It is fast becoming a label for those that would oppose oppression by force.

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40. Comment #91632 by Bonzai on November 28, 2007 at 6:30 pm

Comment #91365 by AdrianB


Now my children go to the same school, and it is about 25% Muslim, it is obvious to me that multiculturism has failed for the following reasons:

The friendships formed in primary school between Muslim and non-Muslim males slowly disappear as the children move up through the years...


I would say that it is perhaps due to the way "multi-culturalism" is implemented in the U.K. I live in Toronto, which is probably more racially mixed than any city in the world. Yet I don't see the self segregation pattern that you witness. Instead young people are pretty much colour blind and most people have friends from other racial groups than their own.

You cannot achieve integration by just forcing people to give up their customs and beliefs. You have to also provide space for people to integrate into.

I can be wrong about that, my impression is that the old world mentality is still very entrenched in Europe and the mainstream is less welcoming to new comers even if they desire to integrate. As a result immigrants are more likely to retreat back into their ethnic cocoon and state policy would make it very easy to do so. The emphasis on group identity of "multi-culturalism" converges nicely with old world racism. In Europe identity is a label that sticks, it binds rather than liberates. While in Canada, multi-culturalism doesn't inhibit integration as it only provides more options. I can slip in and out of different identities with relative ease. European style multi-culturalism is a recipe for permanent separation. (now of course racism still exists in Canada and it is bound up with class as well in case I paint too rosy a picture, but in balance I think we are doing a lot better than Europe)

So regarding Muslims, I think the trick is to find a way to uncompromisingly condemn the Dark Age values and practices of organized Islam without creating an atmosphere of rejection and alienation for the majority of law abiding, decent Muslims. This is going to be difficuly, but it has to be done.

I think the U.K government is trying to do that by enlisting the help of self appointed "community leaders", outfits such as the BMC, but these people 1) have their own agendas and b) don't speak for the everyday Muslims. This strategy is wrong headed because it is still premised upon the notion that Muslims are part of "them" and can only be engaged through some kind of surrogates. This is self defeating if integration is the goal.

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41. Comment #91636 by Ashley1319 on November 28, 2007 at 7:20 pm

Islam is where christianity was in the dark ages. The thing is, they've both been around about the same length of time. The reason christianity is moderate like it is today, is because of a few things. 1) the original bible didn't have strict guidelines on heresy and apostasy,and so didn't condemn everyone to death. This changed later on, but in Christianity's earliest form, it was fairly calm. Because of the lack of heresy denunciations in the bible, the protestant reformation was able to occur, and opposing views were finally accepted. 2. Christianity became 'radical' after the main church was founded, and they had to wipe out opposing views to survive. Islam has skipped the first part, because the Islamic koran literally tells people to murder not just heretics, but non believers, and believers who do things against the muslim laws. They were radical from the start.
3. Islam saw Christianity breaking off into parts, and used their example in stopping their religion from doing the same. They expressly forbid any differing of opinions on the koran, and killed(and still do) all who interpret it differently. I'm not exactly sure what we should do about Islam, but the absolute first thing is this: do not allow them to block themselves off from the secular community. The Sharia law was the worst thing ever. The idea of Multiculturalism in islam is them separating themselves from us. That's how they can see us as just 'nonbelievers' who deserve death. They aren't exposed to criticism, or other opinions. That has to stop. The more we criticize, the more we make them behave according to our universal rights laws, the more they will become moderate. They will have to in order to survive

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42. Comment #91661 by Summer Seale on November 28, 2007 at 11:09 pm

But...but....

...Islam is a religion of peace!

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43. Comment #91774 by Fanusi Khiyal on November 29, 2007 at 8:05 am

brainsys I will assume that you are young, and foolish, and thus your characterisation of my views with no evidence is excusable, but simply a result of an inability to read properly.


Render unto Cesar was the words of a lone preacher in an occupied territory finding a clever way of saving his own neck under hostile questioning (if we believe the biblical account).


Yes, of course. Think I disagree? But the point is that this twist of fate created a division between Church and State, a crack in which reason could grow. During the Enlightenment there were free thinking princes who shielded philosophers and scientists from clerical persecution. This was only possible thanks to the preachings of Christ, or at least what is held to be those preachings (effectively the same thing, for these purposes).

Now, this is a pretty unique situation, one not really seen elsewhere. In ancient Rome, the Emperor was a god. Athens excuted Socrates for 'impiety'. Look at the East. Hinduism created a grotesque cast structure, where everyone was bound into their place of birth by religious law. Buddhism was theocratic, and Tibet's clerical cast was cruel and tyrannical in the extreme. And, of course, in Japan the Emperor was a god.

My point is that this Church/State separation is pretty unique historically, and we should be aware of that. The very idea just didn't exist in many cultures, and certainly not in Islam. As I keep pointing out, Islam is first and foremost a system of government.

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