Wednesday, November 28, 2007 | Reason : In the News | print version

This Friday: Debate between Dan Dennett and Dinesh D'Souza

by Tufts University

This is also in the calendar section, but I thought I'd bring it to everyone's attention here:

http://www.TheDebateOnGod.blogspot.com/

Dinesh D'Souza, conservative Christian and best-selling author, will face off against Tufts professor, author, and atheist Daniel Dennett in a debate on the existence of god. The resolution for the debate will be as follows:

"God is a manmade invention"

Daniel Dennett will be arguing the affirmative, and Dinesh D'Souza the negative

Order of debate:

Dennett opens up with 20-25 minute speech
D'Souza follows with his own 20-25 minute speech
Dennett rebutts for 5 minutes, then D'Souza for 5, then repeat once more
Then we will have an audience Q&A where Tufts students will ask questions to each debator for 30-40 minutes

If you would like to ask a question to either debator, please email me at Patrick.Andriola@tufts.edu

Time and date of debate:

Friday, November 30th, 7:15 PM

Place:

Cabot Auditorium ( http://calendar.boston.com/medford-ma/venues/show/371626-cabot-auditorium-tufts-university )
Tufts University
Medford, Massachusetts

How to reserve tickets:

Unfortunately, reservations inside of Cabot have been completely booked

HOWEVER

We will have an overflow auditorium with a large-screen projection of the debate fed LIVE at Pearson 104, once again on Tufts campus

Reservations for this are still ongoing, so just shoot me an email at Patrick.Andriola@Tufts.edu to reserve a max of 3 seats

FOR TUFTS STUDENTS AND FACULTY:

No reservation is necessary. Show up to the debate for a first-come, first-serve entrance. A Tufts ID is required.

For any other questions, media or event related, please contact me at Patrick.Andriola@Tufts.edu

WATCH Dan Dennett's recent speech at AAI 07 here

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1. Comment #91492 by decius on November 28, 2007 at 12:56 pm

YES!

Other Comments by decius

2. Comment #91493 by USA_Limey on November 28, 2007 at 12:58 pm

D'Souza with his bombastic self righteous style against the mellodious self effacing and calmer approach of Dennet should make for an interesting comparison.

Having said that, I think Dennet has made a mistake here agreeing to this one. He's just too 'nice' to take on D'Souza. You need a hitchens to handle a creep like him.

Other Comments by USA_Limey

3. Comment #91494 by Gymnopedie on November 28, 2007 at 1:00 pm

Oh dear, I fear Dinesh D'Souza likes to play the role of punching bag.

Other Comments by Gymnopedie

4. Comment #91497 by Arcturus on November 28, 2007 at 1:02 pm

Interesting!

It will be an easy task for Dan to show what we all know: "God is a manmade invention".

Other Comments by Arcturus

5. Comment #91505 by room101 on November 28, 2007 at 1:18 pm

It will be an easy task for Dan to show what we all know: "God is a manmade invention"

Sounds "easy" enough, doesn't it? But that really never is the case. It's all spin and delivery nowadays. Also, the setting/audience counts, too. Douche-ouza is a skilled orator who can talk about absolutely nothing and make it sound like something. I thought Hitchens would mop the floor with him in their debate - didn't happen. Not only that, he seems to be getting off debating the secular side and then gloating about how well he did on his website.

Let's see how Dr. Dennett does. I like that it's at a real university. Hopefully the audience will be comprised of mostly learned, open-minded individuals who will be able to not only provide Dr. Dennett the respect he deserves but also cut through the BS from that blabbering idiot.

Other Comments by room101

6. Comment #91511 by Fedler on November 28, 2007 at 1:27 pm

I agree with room101. D'Souza seems to specialize in spewing as much crap as possible at his opponent that it takes longer than the given 10 minutes to refute it all. Thus, the proponents of D'Souza can say "Look, Dennett didn't refute claim X, Y or Z. God exists!"

I have complete trust that Professor Dennett can squash D'Souza like a bug intellectually, but D'Souza's antics do play to the "general" audience. I wish Professor Dennett all the best.

Other Comments by Fedler

7. Comment #91513 by Quine on November 28, 2007 at 1:29 pm

When D'Weasle makes his usual comment about the target rich room full of nudists, I hope Dan says something like, "Dinesh, there is really no need to compare yourself to a tiny blood sucking pest."

Other Comments by Quine

8. Comment #91520 by Fanusi Khiyal on November 28, 2007 at 1:40 pm

Oh lord, just what we needed. Darth D'Nesh is at it again.

Excuse me, I'm going to go off and get drunk now.

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

9. Comment #91522 by Jari on November 28, 2007 at 1:46 pm

I just found out today that Michael Shermer will be debating D'Souza on the existance of god on Dec 5 at my university. I don't know a lot about Shermer and his debating skills though. Will it be worth seeing, especially since I've got two exams the next day?

Other Comments by Jari

10. Comment #91527 by Dunc-uk on November 28, 2007 at 1:53 pm

The topic is definitely more biased in "our" favour than the Hitchens talk... D'Souza won't be able to use any of his silly claims of the great works of Christianity, as that has nothing to do with the central question of Gods existence. That said, Dennett is mild mannered and could simply be bulldozed by Dinesh, who is in many ways the closest to the Christian equivalent of Hitchens.

Other Comments by Dunc-uk

11. Comment #91530 by Duff on November 28, 2007 at 2:00 pm

Dennett bulldozed. I don't think so. He has one of the best minds in the business and has a quick wit. Should be very interesting.

Other Comments by Duff

12. Comment #91531 by joebudda on November 28, 2007 at 2:00 pm

Does anyone know if this will be available online for those of us that are not local?

Other Comments by joebudda

13. Comment #91536 by JemyM on November 28, 2007 at 2:13 pm

Dennett do not stand a chance, because he is sane. That's a huge disadvantage against Dinesh D'Souza.

Other Comments by JemyM

14. Comment #91540 by Quine on November 28, 2007 at 2:19 pm

D'Souza won't be able to use any of his silly claims of the great works of Christianity, as that has nothing to do with the central question of Gods existence.

Yes, well, don't be too surprised when he does anyway, also expect Hitler and Stalin to be dragged in as usual. If he did that to me, I would respond with: "Don't you believe that your deity created Hitler and Stalin?"

D: "Yes, but He gave them free will so He is not responsible for what they did."

Me: "So that is the same non-responsibility as when the bishop quietly moves the child rapist priest (who also has free will) to another parish?"

Other Comments by Quine

15. Comment #91556 by Gymnopedie on November 28, 2007 at 2:40 pm

Is anyone else finding the whole Dinesh situation reminiscent of Kent Hovind? They defend intellectually hollow concepts, yet seem to get audiences to cheer at their every sentence like - well - cheerleaders at a sports game. I view the whole thing as some sort of cosmic comedy.

Other Comments by Gymnopedie

16. Comment #91567 by Dr Benway on November 28, 2007 at 2:54 pm

D'Souza's new book is out and his sales will benefit from the exposure. Hope Dennett's well paid.

If past is prologue, this "debate" will consist of two lectures followed by tangential, well rehearsed blurbs. It must be thus, for an actual debate by the rules would hardly be worth watching:

Atheist: Evidence?
Theist: Evidence?
Atheist: Onus.
Theist: Moral basis.
Atheist: Euthyphro.
Theist: Hitler Stalin Mao.
Atheist: Human gullibility.
Theist: Personal experience.
Atheist: Corroboration.
Theist: Uh...that's it for me. Only a bit of spin left.
Atheist: Off for a pint then?

We avoid teaching ID in science class so as to avoid the meta-message of ID, which is anti-science. Perhaps we likewise ought to avoid these pseudo-debates and their anti-rational meta-message. Reasoned debate is not the same thing as rhetorical excercise.

I'd prefer to watch two people in comfortable chairs having an interesting conversation over the course of two hours, rather than these oddly structured "debates."

Other Comments by Dr Benway

17. Comment #91572 by smithyboy on November 28, 2007 at 3:09 pm

Dr Benway
Good summary. I still think the debates have value though. Atheists in the audience will see through D'Souza, but thoughtful Christians will be at least be given pause by Dennett and some of them may eventually 'see the light' as a result.

Other Comments by smithyboy

18. Comment #91575 by BaronOchs on November 28, 2007 at 3:18 pm

here is part of a Dennett/D'Souza exchange:

http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/papers/Dsouza.htm

I'm not going to say Dennett is guranteed victory but is it not correct that D'Souza's usual tactic is to bandy about some quasi-philosophy, he will have to think of something else for this one because whatever else he will not out philosophise Dennett!

Other Comments by BaronOchs

19. Comment #91586 by Corylus on November 28, 2007 at 3:58 pm

Don't underestimate Dennett � he's scary when pissed.

http://richarddawkins.net/article,635,Response-to-Orr,Daniel-C-Dennett

The only possible problem will be if Dinesh is too damn stupid to realise when he is being spanked.

Other Comments by Corylus

20. Comment #91594 by jaytee_555 on November 28, 2007 at 4:14 pm

Prof. Dennet is mild mannered and polite, and I look forward to see how he'll handle D'Souza, who is an agressive master of misdirection and obfuscation. One of D'Souza's most successful debating techniques is to quickly rattle off (in a carefully rehearsed sentence or two) a dozen shallow arguments in sound-bite form. He's smart enough to know that although his arguments are refutable (indeed refuted) it will always takes a lot more time for his opponent to expose faulty logic than it takes for him to spout it. It would be really useful if Dennet could actually make this point in his opening remarks, and prepare the audience to look out for it. There is absolutely no doubt that Dennet could wipe the floor with him in honest debate, but I wonder if he has enough experience in debating with a professional disembler like D'Souza who, though intellectually lightweight, is nontheless a skilled and slick political trickster for whom truth is an irrelevance.

Other Comments by jaytee_555

21. Comment #91606 by notsobad on November 28, 2007 at 4:31 pm

Dennett's belief in belief is exactly what preachers like Souza need to be told.

Other Comments by notsobad

22. Comment #91611 by Matt7895 on November 28, 2007 at 4:46 pm

Will this be filmed or recorded?

Other Comments by Matt7895

23. Comment #91612 by Ludacrispat26 on November 28, 2007 at 4:48 pm

This will be filmed and available on the internet

Other Comments by Ludacrispat26

24. Comment #91617 by ChrisMcL on November 28, 2007 at 4:58 pm

YES! This is a debate that really needs to be shared with the world. Is someone going to share a recording of this event?

Dan, if you're reading, please get this debate on tape.

Other Comments by ChrisMcL

25. Comment #91619 by Vinelectric on November 28, 2007 at 5:11 pm

Waste of time. D'Souza is neither a contributing scientist nor a trained theologian or a decent debater. I wish Dennett didn't bother at all.

Other Comments by Vinelectric

26. Comment #91631 by steve99 on November 28, 2007 at 6:26 pm

Dennett do not stand a chance, because he is sane. That's a huge disadvantage against Dinesh D'Souza.

Oh dear. I step away from the site for only a few days, and then I look at what has happened. Dianelos on yet another thread, someone posting something irrelevant about Paul Davies on another (preceded by something embarassngly awful by the RSS on that topic), a teacher prosecuted for naming a teddy bear, and someone we all respect going up against the dreadful D'Souza.

OK, so it was too boring not posting here...

I think Dennett is making a big mistake here. D'Souza is not about rational argument, it is about who can rant best for longest.

Other Comments by steve99

27. Comment #91639 by Axulus on November 28, 2007 at 7:29 pm

I really hope Dan Dennett rebuts the B.S. about how science runs on faith because it assumes that everything can be described by mathematics and that our workings of our brain correspond to reality and that only God can account for such. I know he is going to use this idiotic argument again.

Other Comments by Axulus

28. Comment #91643 by USA_Limey on November 28, 2007 at 7:38 pm

Comment #91617 by ChrisMcL:

YES! This is a debate that really needs to be shared with the world

Chris, Love your optimism, but man are you in for a big let down.

Other Comments by USA_Limey

29. Comment #91647 by RickM on November 28, 2007 at 7:54 pm

Here we have finely tuned critical thinking vs. intentional distortion.

I'm afraid Dan is at a slight disadvantage based on his slow speaking style.

Looking forward to the audio/vid.

P.S. Just finished "Breaking the Spell"; I love Dan Dennet.

Other Comments by RickM

30. Comment #91649 by Ludacrispat26 on November 28, 2007 at 8:08 pm

Just co clarify:

I am Pat Andriola, the President of the Tufts Freethought Society running this event. The debate will be livecasted from the website given. It also will find its way to the internet withing 24 hours after the event takes place.

A book signign will follow.

Other Comments by Ludacrispat26

31. Comment #91653 by sane1 on November 28, 2007 at 8:53 pm

Ludacrispat26:

"...from the website given"?

Could you clarify again?

and: More power to you. Congrats on your work in making this debate happen!

Other Comments by sane1

32. Comment #91654 by Steven Mading on November 28, 2007 at 9:29 pm

Trying to remain calm and yet still efective in the face of the direct lying of D'Souza is very very hard. You either make the mistake of being too nice, thereby acting as if d'souza's rhetoric is respectable and honest and giving it an air of credibility it doesn't deserve, or you make the mistake of letting your temper rise, which makes you look bad. The little patch of effective debating technique with D'souza lays between those two scenarios, but it's very very narrow. But, if anyone can find that narrow band and stay in it, it's Dan Dennet. He's a good choice for whom to debate him.

Other Comments by Steven Mading

33. Comment #91656 by Edanator on November 28, 2007 at 9:51 pm

Has D'Souza been in any written debates? I'd love to see him go a few rounds against Sam Harris. Soundbites and misdirection doesn't work in written debates, especially not against such an experienced opponent as Sam Harris. Look up his debate against Andrew Sullivan, if you want to know what I mean.

Further, should such a debate take place, future "oral" debates could feed from the written, since D'Souza will be forced to explain in detail his arguments, and at the same time be exposed to the counterarguments.
"Why are you asking me this, Mr D'Souza? You know as well as I do that ... as was explained to you in your debate with Sam Harris."
This will not only serve as an effective rebuttal presented in a short soundbite, it will also expose D'Souza for the dishonest man he is.

Regardless, I wish our wise Obi-Wan Dennett good luck against the forces of darkness!

Other Comments by Edanator

34. Comment #91663 by MikeV on November 28, 2007 at 11:22 pm

I'm afraid that these debates with D'Souza are made for very militant atheists. Those that are not afraid of embarassing D'Souza. Sometimes ad-hominems are inevitable, and D'Souza likes to use these arguments in every debate he's been to.

D'Souza also likes to make so many strawman arguments that it makes very hard for the other debater to keep count and to strike each one down (because of the limited time).

Let's hope that Mr. Dennett will not disappoint as Shermer and Hitchens have :/

Other Comments by MikeV

35. Comment #91671 by Quine on November 29, 2007 at 12:15 am

Check out Pat Condell's little video on polite debates:

http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2007/11/on_being_polite.html

Other Comments by Quine

36. Comment #91690 by SilentMike on November 29, 2007 at 1:36 am

Why talk to this swamp creature? Why boost the sales of his ridiculous book? We're making him people. If the "new atheists" didn't debate that thing no one would care about him.

Other Comments by SilentMike

37. Comment #91692 by Dog Boots on November 29, 2007 at 1:45 am

When will they stop using debate formats like the one outlined there, which is the same as D'Souza vs. Hitch and Shermer, respectively.

I would much rather like to see a direct head-to-head debate, point by point, instead of 25 minutes of this and then 25 minutes of that, at the end of which nobody remembers anything of what was said - just a vague feeling of how it felt at the time and much of that could have been altered completely, if a counterpoint was made on the spot - the second that the original argument was presented.

It's got to be possible in some way to make it work - perhaps with a skilled moderator, that can keep them on track. No derailing allowed!

Am I the only one?

Edit: I just mailed Patrick Andriola (whose email can be found above) about this. I encourage anyone who feels the same way to do so - who knows, maybe we can change something?

Other Comments by Dog Boots

38. Comment #91703 by SilentMike on November 29, 2007 at 2:26 am

These debates are rubbish. You put some ignorant mouthpiece like D'Souza up on the podium and he sucks the fun right out of it. I've heard enogh from that clown. Give me a lecture with a powerpoint presentation any day.

Other Comments by SilentMike

39. Comment #91704 by Ilovelucy on November 29, 2007 at 2:26 am

Dinesh is very into "winning" debates, Dennett isn't. For D'Souza, "winning" means cramming as many non-sequitors into a few minutes that if the other debater follows the lead, they can never deal with each one in detail in the time provided. So for all those that care about someone mopping the floor with Dinesh, it aint going to happen. You can expect Dennett to give a clear and thought-out argument, and may just pick apart the game of ontological Twister that D'Souza likes to play when debating. But Dennett will be in this to make his point clearly, not to be the one to carp about his "victory" for the months to follow.

Other Comments by Ilovelucy

40. Comment #91706 by Ilovelucy on November 29, 2007 at 2:30 am

Oh, more importantly, what scripted opening point will Dinesh use in his first rebuttal? You know the kind, the one that's meant to be spontaneous. Will he use the mosquito in the nudist colony line AGAIN or has he actually come up with a new one?

Other Comments by Ilovelucy

41. Comment #91721 by notsobad on November 29, 2007 at 4:48 am

I would much rather like to see a direct head-to-head debate, point by point, instead of 25 minutes of this and then 25 minutes of that, at the end of which nobody remembers anything of what was said - just a vague feeling of how it felt at the time and much of that could have been altered completely, if a counterpoint was made on the spot - the second that the original argument was presented.

I concur. We basically know positions of both (reason and practicality vs preaching) so we should skip that part.

Other Comments by notsobad

42. Comment #91735 by Dr Benway on November 29, 2007 at 5:31 am

Professor Dennett,

Bring a cute fuzzy Teddy Bear named Mohammad. Set it on the podium to remind everyone what we're up against.

D'Souza argues that Christianity has done great thing X, Y, and Z. Atheists are myopic in their condemnation of this wonderful boon to society.

I'd want to say something like this to him:

Religionists are vastly more anti-religious than most free thinkers. Each religion cheers for itself but sneers at all the other religions.

Imagine what would happen to D'Souza were he to make the same pro-Christian speech in the Sudan. His 40 lashes would not come at the hand of an atheist, but a believer in God.

D'Souza may argue that Christianity is more correct than Islam.

I'd ask, what standard are we to use in deciding which religion is correct? If we use our own sense of what's best for us, we prove we don't need religion to guide us. We've got our own sense of what's best.

Furthermore, we've no hope for peace upon our globalized planet if religion A is to compete against religion B. The only way out of this mess is to base our social policies upon evidence. No more unfounded nonsense about the supernatural, please! Enough!

Other Comments by Dr Benway

43. Comment #91740 by Dr Benway on November 29, 2007 at 5:47 am

Addendum: If D'Souza says Christianity invented science, law, Enlightenment values, charitable giving, indoor plumbing, etc., you may plug my latest product. I'll send along a % of any resulting sales in thanks.

"There's a new product on the market called Bathwater No Mo! Bathwater No Mo! separates the proverbial baby from the dirty water.

"In earlier times, people had to take positives like education, good food, plumbing, and so on, along with a lot of nonsense they didn't really need. Now with Bathwater No Mo! you can keep anything worthwhile while leaving behind things like criminal gullibility, superstition, and cries of death to the infidel.

"Send check or money order for $19.95 to Doc Benway's Emporium. You'll be glad you did."

Other Comments by Dr Benway

44. Comment #91741 by Johnny O on November 29, 2007 at 5:48 am

I'm just glad to see that the actual subject being debated is can give a balanced arguement, rather than the loaded debates we have seen of late and it being held in a 'real' university, with a hopefully impartial audience.

Dan will be fine, he certainly can't be any worse than the pissed up Hitchens was...

Other Comments by Johnny O

45. Comment #91743 by Dr Benway on November 29, 2007 at 5:55 am

Oh one more thing: D'Souza likely will trot out those daft statistics about how many killed by the Inquisition. Might be worth having a more accurate estimation handy.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

46. Comment #91780 by BicycleRepairMan on November 29, 2007 at 8:44 am

It will be interesting to see how Dennett does, I dont think I've seen him in an actual confrontational debate with a theist, and I didnt even think he wanted to do them.. (If anyone has a link to one, I'd be happy)

I'm glad the topic is "Is God man-made?" as opposed to this "can religion be good?" nonsense. The central claim of all atheism is that the religious claims are overwhelmingly likely to be false, and that God doesnt exist. once that is established, it is more or less a given that believing in these myths, and spreading the myth that myth-belief is good, is harmful.

Other Comments by BicycleRepairMan

47. Comment #91783 by Ludacrispat26 on November 29, 2007 at 9:09 am

Sane1:

http://www.thedebateongod.blogspot.com

And thanks for the kind words.

And to everyone criticizing the debate, I understand your point. You feel D'Souza is a bumbling fool who is not worthy of debating Dennett. But let us keep in mind that this will be Dennett's first major debate, something very notable for us who have only seen him give short lectures, and that D'Souza will have to defend god's exsitence, not religion's effect on the world.

And also, be careful what you say. Big Brother is apparently watching:

http://www.mafamily.org/issues/docs/33_DsouzaInviteMFI.pdf

Other Comments by Ludacrispat26

48. Comment #91785 by GSP on November 29, 2007 at 9:27 am

AWESOME! I cannot wait! I saw Dan Dennett give a lecture when he came here to the University of Michigan and really enjoyed it. He is a great speaker.

Other Comments by GSP

49. Comment #91786 by Bonzai on November 29, 2007 at 9:40 am

Comment #91735 by Dr Benway

Great points as usual and I like the way you express them as well. Too bad you are not doing the debate.

Other Comments by Bonzai

50. Comment #91787 by steve99 on November 29, 2007 at 9:42 am