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Pupil defends teacher in Muhammad teddy furore
by Guardian
Thanks to James Marshal for the link.
Reposted from:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sudan/story/0,,2218028,00.html
· Boy, 7, says he put forward his own name in class vote
· Woman spends third night in jail over blasphemy row
British teacher Gillian Gibbons, arrested in Sudan for blasphamy over the naming of a teddy bear by her class. Photograph: Ho/Reuters
A seven-year-old Sudanese boy has defended his British teacher, who stands accused of insulting Islam's prophet, saying that he had suggested calling the class teddy bear Muhammad because it was his own name.
Police arrested Gillian Gibbons, 54, on Sunday after complaints by parents that she had acted blasphemously in allowing the toy to be called Muhammad. Gibbons, a teacher at the exclusive British-style Unity high school in Khartoum, had asked her pupils to name the bear as part of a project to teach them about animals and their habitats. "The teacher asked me what I wanted to call the teddy," the boy told Reuters. "I said Muhammad. I named it after my name."
His suggestion was put to a class vote and was the clear winner. The boy, who said he was not thinking about the prophet when he put forward his choice, described Gibbons as "very nice".
Gibbons, who is from Liverpool, spent her third night in jail yesterday, as she was moved from a local police station to a bigger police office in Khartoum north, where she is waiting to be charged. She has retained a local lawyer, but embassy officials were prevented from seeing her yesterday.
"She is still in detention and the investigation appears to be ongoing," said a British embassy spokesman in Khartoum. "We visited her on Monday and we hope to be allowed to see her again tomorrow morning."
Gordon Brown said yesterday that he felt "very sorry for what has happened to Miss Gibbons", and that every effort was being made to ensure a speedy release. The Muslim Council of Britain also condemned the arrest, saying it was "obvious that no malice was intended".
The Sudanese government is insisting the law follow its course. Mohamed al-Mardhi, the justice minister, told local media that he had ordered the country's general prosecutor to take charge of the case. "[The charges] are under the Sudanese penal code ... insulting religion and provoking the feeling of Muslims," he said. The offence carries a penalty of six months in jail or 40 lashes.
The teddy bear incident occurred in September, a month after Gibbons arrived in Sudan, but it was not until last week that Unity's director was informed that a few parents had complained to the Ministry of Education that their religion had been insulted. For devout Muslims, any depiction of the prophet Muhammad is regarded as blasphemous.
The school is closed until January, for fear of reprisals. The feeling among most teachers and parents at Unity - Muslim and non-Muslim - is that the Sudanese authorities have overreacted.
"I'm annoyed ... that this has escalated in this way," Muhammad's mother said. "If it happened as Muhammad said, there is no problem here - it was not intended."
An English mother, who had a child in one of the other classes in Unity, said: "I was just gobsmacked. And when I talked about it to colleagues who were Muslims, they felt the same. They were amazed.
"When I first heard about the teddy bear I thought 'Oh no, don't go down that road. That's a really bad idea.' But she had just arrived in Sudan. She must have been idealistic, full of new ideas. She just didn't realise that it was such a problem."
Even the Sudanese embassy in London called it a "storm in a teacup". Khalid al-Mubarak, the embassy spokesman, told the BBC he expected the case would be treated as a "minute complaint", and that cultural differences had caused the problem.
Also see: Teacher charged over teddy row
Reposted from:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sudan/story/0,,2218028,00.html
· Boy, 7, says he put forward his own name in class vote
· Woman spends third night in jail over blasphemy row
British teacher Gillian Gibbons, arrested in Sudan for blasphamy over the naming of a teddy bear by her class. Photograph: Ho/Reuters
A seven-year-old Sudanese boy has defended his British teacher, who stands accused of insulting Islam's prophet, saying that he had suggested calling the class teddy bear Muhammad because it was his own name.
Police arrested Gillian Gibbons, 54, on Sunday after complaints by parents that she had acted blasphemously in allowing the toy to be called Muhammad. Gibbons, a teacher at the exclusive British-style Unity high school in Khartoum, had asked her pupils to name the bear as part of a project to teach them about animals and their habitats. "The teacher asked me what I wanted to call the teddy," the boy told Reuters. "I said Muhammad. I named it after my name."
His suggestion was put to a class vote and was the clear winner. The boy, who said he was not thinking about the prophet when he put forward his choice, described Gibbons as "very nice".
Gibbons, who is from Liverpool, spent her third night in jail yesterday, as she was moved from a local police station to a bigger police office in Khartoum north, where she is waiting to be charged. She has retained a local lawyer, but embassy officials were prevented from seeing her yesterday.
"She is still in detention and the investigation appears to be ongoing," said a British embassy spokesman in Khartoum. "We visited her on Monday and we hope to be allowed to see her again tomorrow morning."
Gordon Brown said yesterday that he felt "very sorry for what has happened to Miss Gibbons", and that every effort was being made to ensure a speedy release. The Muslim Council of Britain also condemned the arrest, saying it was "obvious that no malice was intended".
The Sudanese government is insisting the law follow its course. Mohamed al-Mardhi, the justice minister, told local media that he had ordered the country's general prosecutor to take charge of the case. "[The charges] are under the Sudanese penal code ... insulting religion and provoking the feeling of Muslims," he said. The offence carries a penalty of six months in jail or 40 lashes.
The teddy bear incident occurred in September, a month after Gibbons arrived in Sudan, but it was not until last week that Unity's director was informed that a few parents had complained to the Ministry of Education that their religion had been insulted. For devout Muslims, any depiction of the prophet Muhammad is regarded as blasphemous.
The school is closed until January, for fear of reprisals. The feeling among most teachers and parents at Unity - Muslim and non-Muslim - is that the Sudanese authorities have overreacted.
"I'm annoyed ... that this has escalated in this way," Muhammad's mother said. "If it happened as Muhammad said, there is no problem here - it was not intended."
An English mother, who had a child in one of the other classes in Unity, said: "I was just gobsmacked. And when I talked about it to colleagues who were Muslims, they felt the same. They were amazed.
"When I first heard about the teddy bear I thought 'Oh no, don't go down that road. That's a really bad idea.' But she had just arrived in Sudan. She must have been idealistic, full of new ideas. She just didn't realise that it was such a problem."
Even the Sudanese embassy in London called it a "storm in a teacup". Khalid al-Mubarak, the embassy spokesman, told the BBC he expected the case would be treated as a "minute complaint", and that cultural differences had caused the problem.
Also see: Teacher charged over teddy row
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Posted: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 66 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #91503 by Jolly Bloger on November 28, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Yeah, this is absolutely disgusting. I think the worst part is the British apologists trying to calm people down, saying its just a misunderstanding. My further thoughts here:http://jollybloger.blogspot.com/2007/11/sudan-charges-uk-teacher-with-insulting.html
Other Comments by Jolly Bloger
3. Comment #91508 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on November 28, 2007 at 1:23 pm
1. Comment #91501 by Arcturus on November 28, 2007 at 1:15 pmAren't all the Mohammeds in the world an insult to the "prophet"?
This is utter nonsense ... the human race at it's worst.
Basically every photograph, sculpture or painting of anyone (or thing) called Mohammed is an insult. What utter nonsense. I have just rechristined my Johnny mohammed. What now?
Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen
4. Comment #91514 by Goldy on November 28, 2007 at 1:30 pm
Someone should have mentioned to her the implications, but there are things which a visitor just doesn't think about. When I was in Syria I was told off for showing the soles of me feet at someone. Never even crossed my mind that that could be misconstrued. As it is, it does strike me as a bit silly and probably in the same vein as the cartoon fiasco. There does soom to be quite a steady stream of news in the western (ad seemingly mainly the UK) media these days showing Islam in a bad light...
Other Comments by Goldy
5. Comment #91515 by clodhopper on November 28, 2007 at 1:31 pm
Death to all who insult the Holy Prophet of Islam. Neither shall his image be copied nor his name sullied.
Henceforth shall he be called Paddington....or possibly Pooh.
Other Comments by clodhopper
6. Comment #91516 by room101 on November 28, 2007 at 1:31 pm
Thank you, 7-year old sudanese boy, for coming forward and helping to clear this issue up for a bunch of your retarded elders.Funny how a kid gets it, isn't it? Begs the question: At what point does he 'turn' and start to think the opposite like his idiot parents? Hmmmmm....
Other Comments by room101
7. Comment #91519 by USA_Limey on November 28, 2007 at 1:37 pm
There's a guy round these parts who made the news because he renamed all his farm stock Mohammed. He's a pig farmer.
I can't see the Jihadi's coming for him any time soon. As a rural Pennsylvanian farmer he has as much access to weapons as a small third world country.
The United States has its problems, but the second amendment is not among them.
Other Comments by USA_Limey
8. Comment #91524 by Fanusi Khiyal on November 28, 2007 at 1:46 pm
Have you guys all noticed something?All of the defence of this woman has been of the "She didn't know what she was doing! Please, please forgive her!" school.
Instead of saying "This is bullshit, there are certain basic freedoms that will be respected, and if you do not want serious freedom, you will back down. Your religion takes second place to human rights."
Madness.
Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal
9. Comment #91528 by ShavenYak on November 28, 2007 at 1:57 pm
Unreal.The fucking "justice minister" prosecuting this woman is named Mohamed, for fuck's sake. It just doesn't get more ironic than that.
Sorry for the language, but... fuck.
Other Comments by ShavenYak
10. Comment #91534 by USA_Limey on November 28, 2007 at 2:08 pm
Fanusi,Come on FK, you know better than that. We must respect their culture.
In return they will show us the same respect.
See how that works? It's great isn't it. Give peace a chance man. Yeah. That's it.
Got to go; I just made myself puke.
Other Comments by USA_Limey
11. Comment #91543 by Damien White on November 28, 2007 at 2:24 pm
I suppose a cartoon of the teddy bear would be out of the question?Other Comments by Damien White
12. Comment #91547 by room101 on November 28, 2007 at 2:27 pm
Also...It just dawned on me that none of these 7-year old children apparently knew that the Great One should not have his name tossed around and idolatrized as such.
Uhhhh...wouldn't you think these overly pious parents would have taught their kids this by age 7? It appears to me that the parents are suprised by the actions of the British teacher Gibbons - but I'd like to know why their kids weren't as taken aback by all of this, as well. I mean, they should have known, right?
Other Comments by room101
13. Comment #91548 by phil rimmer on November 28, 2007 at 2:28 pm
An English mother, who had a child in one of the other classes in Unity, said: "I was just gobsmacked. And when I talked about it to colleagues who were Muslims, they felt the same. They were amazed.
Do we have any idea how many ordinary muslims were offended, compared to how many petty officials? These latter derive much of there power from Islam. Could we expose how much of a power play this all is? Get people angry about being manipulated?
Other Comments by phil rimmer
14. Comment #91554 by Matt H. on November 28, 2007 at 2:37 pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7117430.stmShe's been charged of insulting religion, inciting hatred and showing contempt for religious beliefs.
That's it. Send in the SAS and get her out of there.
Other Comments by Matt H.
15. Comment #91559 by Matt H. on November 28, 2007 at 2:45 pm
Oh, and cease ALL diplomatic relations with Sudan, until Ms Gibbons gets a full and frank apology for her ordeal. Other Comments by Matt H.
16. Comment #91560 by Vinelectric on November 28, 2007 at 2:46 pm
FKAll of the defence of this woman has been of the "She didn't know what she was doing! Please, please forgive her!"....Instead of saying "This is bullshit...
Because you're not dealing with civilized people. Say to them you're full of bullshit and they will say: 'Aha, bloody kuffar we knew what's this was all about all along' and punish her just to prove a point.
The woman's safety is priority now. And you don't even know what those Sudanese prison cells look or smell like...we need to help get her out of there in one piece. Your mini crusade can resume later.
Dar-Al Harb my arse....
Other Comments by Vinelectric
17. Comment #91564 by Fanusi Khiyal on November 28, 2007 at 2:50 pm
Vin, that is why such a comment would need to be backed with the threat of punishment. Make it clear that if something happens to the teacher, we will not stand idle.This is why freedom is always something that must be fought for.
Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal
18. Comment #91565 by lulando on November 28, 2007 at 2:53 pm
Incidents like these proof how much a personality like the reformer Martin Luther is needed, to adjust this tribal religion and free it from customs, views and teachings derived from a long lost time. Without risking my life - at least in good, old Europe - I can discuss with every Christian I know, whether Jesus Christ is a God, the God or the Son of God or maybe simply a human being or maybe even didn't exist, but it is not possible to call an innocent child's teddy bear Muhammad?.lu :: http://en.lulando.de
Other Comments by lulando
19. Comment #91566 by Eric Blair on November 28, 2007 at 2:54 pm
The Muslim Council of Britain also condemned the arrest, saying it was "obvious that no malice was intended".
If that's not a feeble, deceitful condemnation, I don't know what is.
So if malice were intended she should be in jail? Maybe lose her job (if malice were intended it wouldn't be appropriate to use her young students to make anti-Islamic statements). But that's the extent of it.
With friends like these, who needs enemies?
EB
Other Comments by Eric Blair
20. Comment #91576 by Bonzai on November 28, 2007 at 3:20 pm
There should be more media exposure and public condemnations of outfits like the MCB. There should be relentless attacks every time when one of their representatives loosens his tongue and says something stupid. A strong message should be sent that Islam in the way it is represented by these so called "moderates" is incompatible with modern, secular democratic values. Muslims should shape up or ship out, enough of "accommodation". Certain Dark Age values just cannot be accommodated. Better the mainstream media and politicians from the centre making the point than the BNP. The danger is if no one else speak up extremists like the BNP would monopolize the stage and use the opportunity to push other far right agendas.Other Comments by Bonzai
21. Comment #91579 by PaulJ on November 28, 2007 at 3:27 pm
This is a truly disgraceful affair - and the more publicity it gets, the better. The patent nonsense of imagined 'offence' must be exposed for what it is: a ridiculous conceit that does not deserve to be entertained by any sane person.The UK Government's response so far seems mealy-mouthed and weak. But then 'blasphemy' is still part of British law, despite it being a victimless crime.
One thing though - how is a teacher supposed to know that giving male children a particular name is perfectly fine, but giving a soft toy the same name is not? (I understand that 'ignorance of the law is no excuse', but what is the law? Chapter and verse, please.)
Other Comments by PaulJ
22. Comment #91580 by heathen2 on November 28, 2007 at 3:38 pm
I thought that Muslims typically named their first son Muhammad. Maybe only among some Muslim cultures? Does anyone know about this? I know thare are a lot of Muhammads running around. Other Comments by heathen2
23. Comment #91581 by Nick Good on November 28, 2007 at 3:43 pm
incidents like these proof how much a personality like the reformer Martin Luther is neededYes Martin Luther, the 'charming' Germanic Monk is just what's needed...NOT.
He might have been a catalyst that broke the Papal monopoly of the Cathoholic church back when god was a boy; but I'm not sure his like is just quite what we need in the 21st century for Islam. His schism was not predicated on tolerance and reason; it was underpinned by Biblical literalism - a return to core principles.
A couple of gems from the Teutonic Herr Luther...
Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has: it never comes to the aid of spritual things, but--more frequently than not --struggles against the Divine Word....
Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God.
We don't need Koranic literalism - that's the nub of problem with Islam. The very basis of it is seeing the Koran as the literal word of God dictated verbatim by the angel Gabriel to the 'prophet' Mohammed. This makes it a particular pernicious meme, it's core tenets require re-proofing against the Koranic standard. This puts potential reformers immediately on the back foot, because if they challenge this, they are vulnerable to charges of apostasy.
More Lutherite gems here - http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/luther.htm
Henry the 8th would be a better model - but he is hardly 'kosher' as a 21st century example.
Rather just call Islam for the tosh it is; and nasty hateful tosh at that.
Other Comments by Nick Good
24. Comment #91587 by Goldy on November 28, 2007 at 4:05 pm
Boris Johnson's contribution to this stupidityhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/11/29/do2901.xml
Other Comments by Goldy
25. Comment #91589 by Fanusi Khiyal on November 28, 2007 at 4:09 pm
Nick, have you by any chance been reading Irshad Manji? ;-)
We don't need Koranic literalism - that's the nub of problem with Islam. The very basis of it is seeing the Koran as the literal word of God dictated verbatim by the angel Gabriel to the 'prophet' Mohammed. This makes it a particular pernicious meme, it's core tenets require re-proofing against the Koranic standard. This puts potential reformers immediately on the back foot, because if they challenge this, they are vulnerable to charges of apostasy.
The trouble is that the claim that the Qur'an is perfect and unalterable is one of Islam's central tennets and basic "selling points". I doubt you can change that without destroying it.
Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal
26. Comment #91590 by Goldy on November 28, 2007 at 4:12 pm
The trouble is that the claim that the Qur'an is perfect and unalterable is one of Islam's central tennets and basic "selling points". I doubt you can change that without destroying it.
Isn't that the same for the Bible?
Other Comments by Goldy
27. Comment #91624 by Vinelectric on November 28, 2007 at 5:37 pm
Fanusi KhiyalThis is why freedom is always something that must be fought for.
I wonder if Zarqawi said something similar to his henchmen when they heard of the likes of the Abu Gharib incident.
Don't become like one of them. I know what you mean but if someone's life is at risk you don't start shouting threats; for her own sake. Diplomacy to secure her then get down to business if you feel like it.
Other Comments by Vinelectric
28. Comment #91625 by automath on November 28, 2007 at 5:40 pm
Says a lot about religion when a child knows better than its elders!And as for the parents, with the threat of death or damnation hanging over them they'll more often than not, follow whatever some lunatic of a religious leader has to say.
Other Comments by automath
29. Comment #91634 by 35bluejacket on November 28, 2007 at 6:47 pm
Where is our Chinese Gordon? Oh. I forgot. They cut his head off. (The bloody parlament waited too long.) We need another Gen. Ketchner and Churchill down there now.Other Comments by 35bluejacket
30. Comment #91645 by Matt H. on November 28, 2007 at 7:45 pm
What we need is another Thatcher running things. Say what you like about her domestic policies, but she was the man when it came to defending British interests abroad. She sent the SAS in to deal with the Iranian embassy siege and she saved the Falkland Islands from Argentinian invasion. I thought Brown was going to be just as iron-willed as her, but it seems not. If Thatcher was PM, she'd instantly sever diplomatic ties with Sudan and send in the SAS to rescue Ms Gibbons. Other Comments by Matt H.
31. Comment #91651 by burn0gas on November 28, 2007 at 8:36 pm
This is sick! RELIGION POISONS EVERYTHING...
Everyone supporting this teacher should be immediately naming their Teddy bears Muhammad. Hords of people should pack plans and fly to Sudan and declare their Teddy Muhammad at immigration. Toys manufacturers should be making Teddy bear toys with little t-shirts on that have "My name is Muhammad" stitched to them. Every newspaper in the world that supports her should be printing full front page pictures of Teddy bears wearing Muhammad name tags. Just out and out overrun their entire delusion. I'm going to go get some t-shirt iron-ons and start printing my own shirts that show Teddy bears named Muhammad.
Other Comments by burn0gas
32. Comment #91658 by shmooth on November 28, 2007 at 10:56 pm
darn - there goes my xmas vacation plans. Other Comments by shmooth
33. Comment #91660 by Don_Quix on November 28, 2007 at 11:08 pm
"Everyone supporting this teacher should be immediately naming their Teddy bears Muhammad."This made me laugh. If only we could ship over Gordon Freeman armed with a crowbar. He'd sort those buggers out. hahah.
Other Comments by Don_Quix
34. Comment #91662 by Coral76 on November 28, 2007 at 11:10 pm
"Everyone supporting this teacher should be immediately naming their Teddy bears Muhammad. Hords of people should pack plans and fly to Sudan and declare their Teddy Muhammad at immigration. Toys manufacturers should be making Teddy bear toys with little t-shirts on that have "My name is Muhammad" stitched to them. Every newspaper in the world that supports her should be printing full front page pictures of Teddy bears wearing Muhammad name tags. Just out and out overrun their entire delusion. I'm going to go get some t-shirt iron-ons and start printing my own shirts that show Teddy bears named Muhammad."Just found a Mohammed teddy bear on cafepress.com . Can't seem to figure out how to post the link though...
Just type "Hello My Name Is Mohammed" into the search bar. It should be under "fun stuff".
I say we all buy one and have it sent to the Sudanese embassies in NYC and London.
Other Comments by Coral76
35. Comment #91666 by MonkeyTree2 on November 28, 2007 at 11:38 pm
OK so does this mean Muhammad looked like a Teddy bear Other Comments by MonkeyTree2
36. Comment #91667 by Summer Seale on November 28, 2007 at 11:41 pm
I know that what I'm about to say is going to ring completely false with most of the people here but here goes:This is what you get for not having a believable foreign policy towards these sand tick countries which makes them believe that if they don't behave, you will seriously go in and kick their fucking ass until they scream uncle.
Period.
I love most of what people fight for here, but leftist dogma of peace and love and understanding is not gonna do the frigging job, k? Your flowers and wishes for a peaceful world isn't gonna cut making it come true. I know, I know, most of you are peace loving hippies and that's fine. But I still think that a religious zealot as a Marine ready to pull the trigger for western values is doing a hell of a lot more than most metro urban atheists who just write about how the rest of the world sucks and why can't everyone respect ideals like they do? Now, I'm not a Marine and even if I were, they wouldn't let me fight (how sexist is that? but whatever) but I do support the marines in their fight as well as the other soldiers and seriously...I don't understand how people here just can't see that.
If the Sudanese *really* thought that our *instant* and *first* reaction to this would be to send fifty cruise missiles into their grand palace or whatever else they have of importance over there, I can *guarantee* you that they wouldn't have arrested her in the first place. They'd be scared shitless to do so. That's how you're going to change these societies before they get down to destroying ours: scaring the living shit out of them.
Look at what happened with the british soldiers and Iran. Does anyone here actually think that Ahmadinejad would have even *thought* of doing that if he *really* believed that the UK's instantaneous response would have been a bombing raid to put him in his place? I don't think so.
Idealism is nice and dandy, but the world isn't an ideal place. For rational people to make up fantasies about it being so is kinda nonsensical to me.
And for your information, just to remind everyone here, nobody ever got to the age of reason in the west - the same one you all tout - without spilling a hell of a lot of blood for it. You think that was in vain?
Other Comments by Summer Seale
37. Comment #91673 by clodhopper on November 29, 2007 at 12:31 am
Embassy of the Republic of the Sudan 3 Cleveland Row
St. James's
London
SW1A 1DD
others:
http://www.embassyworld.com/embassy/Sudan/sudan1.htm
Would it help to tell them what we think?
Other Comments by clodhopper
38. Comment #91674 by Scott McMeekin on November 29, 2007 at 12:33 am
Seems to be a lot of Daily Mail readers commenting. Utterly knee-jerk reactionary piffle.So, you're condemning the Muslim Council for coming out in unequivocable support of the teacher - and I suspect the same people would be condeming them for NOT coming out in support of her. Get a grip guys.
Anyone with a reasonable amount of intellect will see that no malice was ever intended, and this is simply reactionary and paranoid BS from the "scholars". Now we wait and see if the UK and Sudanese governments can get their finger out to rectify a situation that should never have arisen to the level of international politics.
In difference to the rest of you, I take it as a positive sign that the Muslim Council stood up immediately to condemn the charges, and are no doubt using whatever influence they can muster to bring pressure to bear on the Sudanese authorities.
Scott.
Other Comments by Scott McMeekin
39. Comment #91676 by Fanusi Khiyal on November 29, 2007 at 12:46 am
You said it, Summer Seale. If you show these maggots weakness, you can guess what will happen. This continual policy of appeasement and surrender has to stop.I would only disagree with one thing:
For rational people to make up fantasies about it being so is kinda nonsensical to me.
Rational people do not make up fantasies. It is this childish urge to see the world the way you want it that is going to get everyone in alot of trouble.
Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal
40. Comment #91680 by stephenray on November 29, 2007 at 1:08 am
It seems nobody complained for several weeks.Am I the only one who wonders what her real offence was? The one that made some parents go and spread their religiously-inspired malice where it would do the most damage?
Yech. I feel so outraged (about her and the poor Saudi girl sentenced to 200 lashes) that I'm beginning to think that maybe RD is wrong. In the face of such outrageous disregard for common humanity, I *can* see atheists setting out to kill in the name of destroying religion...
Other Comments by stephenray
41. Comment #91702 by Nighttripper on November 29, 2007 at 2:21 am
The offence carries a penalty of six months in jail or 40 lashes.
Eh, what happened to the third option? In the last article it said:
Article: 'Muhammad' teddy teacher arrested.
The BBC has learned the charge could lead to six months in jail, 40 lashes or a fine.
Other Comments by Nighttripper
42. Comment #91708 by epeeist on November 29, 2007 at 2:59 am
To quote Robert Heinlein - 'Of all the strange "crimes" that human beings have legislated of nothing, "blasphemy" is the most amazing - with "obscenity" and "indecent exposure" fighting it out for the second and third place.' Other Comments by epeeist
43. Comment #91713 by WSteG on November 29, 2007 at 3:39 am
Comment: The Sudanese should be profoundly grateful to have a woman from England generously and bravely volunteering to teach their children. How many more teachers with an enlightened western background do they think will be willing to follow her example? Another step back to the stone age, Islam. Question: If I say to a boy or man (or world-famous boxer) called Muhammad "Muhammad, you are an idiot", have I just insulted the prophet? It might be useful to know the answer in case any of us ever falls among bigoted Muslims.
See my blog entry Let Miss Gibbons Go or The Bear Gets it at
http://wstegcommonsense.blogspot.com
Other Comments by WSteG
44. Comment #91720 by Incredulous on November 29, 2007 at 4:36 am
I fear an opportunity is being lost by the 'moderate' muslim population everywhere to come out and say not in our name and not in the name of deceny, theist or non-theist. It is this lack of commitment to reasonability which condemns religion in my eyes as it seems to condone this sad abuse of power and leaves it to a mere child to protest at the sheer nakedness of the charges brought by these vacuous emporer's. I hope I wasn't being too strong with my little input, here.Other Comments by Incredulous
45. Comment #91734 by logical on November 29, 2007 at 5:30 am
To all the militaryloving people here:I do admit that I feel like retaliating and have to suppress a fit of behaving as unreasonable as those faithheads, but the timelag - exactly as in the case of the Danish cartoons - makes me think again:
I suggest to plan escalations:
1. Words now - letters and emails;
(not only to Sudanese embassies, but also to "our" politicians about not to cave in to faithheads, they need to be reminded that such behaviour is ridiculous, and that submission to religites earns them contempt)
2. Buy teddybears (or use your old ones), put a name tag "My name is Mohammad", "My name is Theodore" etc. on it and deluge the embassies;
3. Buy toy monkeys and name them Jesus, give some as Xmas gift and store the rest, bet we will not have to wait long to use them?
4. Be prepared to protect moderate Muslims who have their first try in speaking out on this occasion, that can backfire!
(but if there is quick civil defense by Atheists and moderate Christians, the danger soon dies down - yes, Incredulous, the reaction from this side is still feeble, but civil obedience needs to be learned and practiced)
and 5. hold your gunfire!
Other Comments by logical
46. Comment #91737 by coretemprising on November 29, 2007 at 5:34 am
This whole thing is ridiculous of course, but I must be quite the idiot because I don't understand why the woman did this in the first place. What, has she been in a cave for the past 10 years? Didn't she have any sort of clue that what she did might bring about some sort of "outrage"?"No, no, Muhammad, we can't name a TEDDY Muhammad, that just wouldn't be right [and I have some bit of interest in retaining my job and my life]."
What a dim bulb she must be.
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47. Comment #91738 by brainsys on November 29, 2007 at 5:41 am
Incredulouss said "I fear an opportunity is being lost by the 'moderate' muslim population everywhere to come out and say not in our name"Not this morning on the Today programme. Not only did the representative (of the MCB?) denounce it but when pressed by John Humphreys on stoning - he didn't equivocate. Indeed he did a remarkable academic leap that any theologian would be proud of to distance unfortunate religious statements from civilised practice today.
It even surprised John Humphreys - and the other guy in the discussion. So ironically this event might in the end be useful in getting Muslims in the UK to think about how extreme interpretations of their faith might force them to moderate their own interpretations if they wish to be accommodated within a plurialistic community.
On the other hand I can still smell simple power politics in Sudan (read oil/china/darfur) either exploiting Islam or v.v. I don't think anyone outside of the Sudan really knows.
Broadcast is here (I can't play RAM so I hope its all right).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today4_muhammad_20071129.ram
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48. Comment #91750 by Tyler Durden on November 29, 2007 at 6:19 am
UK teacher goes to court in Sudanhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7118245.stm
From the report:Why, if "common sense" has not prevailed up to now (it's only a teddy; they're 7 year olds; culture is alien to teacher), would it suddenly come into play while the case is in court?
And Foreign Secretary David Miliband said he hoped "common sense" would prevail in the case.
Has the case been suddenly moved to The Hague?
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49. Comment #91761 by Floris Meijer on November 29, 2007 at 7:13 am
This is the problem of having laws which are supposedly made to protect peoples feelings from being hurt. This is not an objective criterium so always subject to the opinions of complainers and judges. If hurting other people's feelings is forbidden this creates inequality between the people whose feelings that law must protect and the others.I remember a remark by a high vatican offical (maybe it was the Pope himself) after the cartoon riots about Denmark, where he said a universal law should be made in which it was forbidden to hurt another one's feeling on all major religions. I'm glad that didn't find much support since it would have made many people including myself second grade citizens.
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50. Comment #91767 by black wolf on November 29, 2007 at 7:37 am
This whole thing is ridiculous of course, but I must be quite the idiot because I don't understand why the woman did this in the first place. What, has she been in a cave for the past 10 years? Didn't she have any sort of clue that what she did might bring about some sort of "outrage"?
"No, no, Muhammad, we can't name a TEDDY Muhammad, that just wouldn't be right [and I have some bit of interest in retaining my job and my life]."
What a dim bulb she must be.
Apparently she actually believed the apologists that she was going to a country where the Religion of Peace reigned. As a Christian, she probably thought along the party line, that Islam was just somewhat off-track the path to Truth(TM), and people of the Good Book, inspired by loving faith and all that BS. I anticipate her comment after all this is over, and I'm inclined to believe it will be an apology to Islam about respect and Romans in Rome and more such piffle. Bin Laden is ROFL on his cave floor at this moment, because he knows she will confirm what he's been saying for more than a decade.
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1. Comment #91501 by Arcturus on November 28, 2007 at 1:15 pm
This is utter nonsense ... the human race at it's worst.
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