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Thursday, November 29, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments |

Document Banishing the Green-Eyed Monster

by Richard Dawkins, On Faith

Reposted from:
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/richard_dawkins/2007/11/banishing_the_greeneyed_monste.html

"Is sex outside of marriage a sin? Is it a public matter? Is it forgivable?"

No, of course sex outside marriage is not a public matter, and yes, of course it is forgivable. Only a person infected by the sort of sanctimonious self-righteousness that religion uniquely inspires would apply the meaningless word 'sin' to private sexual behavior.

It is the mark of the religious mind that it cares more about private than public morality. As the bumper sticker slogan put it, "When Clinton lied, nobody died." Officially, Bill Clinton was impeached not for sexual misconduct but for lying about it. But he was entitled to lie about his private life: one could even make a case that he had a positive duty to do so. Tony Blair should have been impeached for lying to the House of Commons about alleged evidence for weapons of mass destruction, because his lies persuaded Members to vote for a war when they otherwise would not. Lying to Congress by saying, "I did not have sex with that woman" should not be an impeachable offense, because where a man puts his penis is none of Congress's damn business. Nor is it any journalist's damn business whether a politician once took drugs at university. Or whether he is gay.

And please don't say the right answer to an impertinent question about your private life is "No comment", because we all know how that would be interpreted. Telling a lie is often the only way to convey an effective "No comment."

A censorious culture in which public figures are forced to answer impertinent questions about their past, or their private affairs, would lead to open season on everybody. Who, if challenged with a point blank question, could honestly deny some secret from the past that they know society would condemn? What is more, the revolting hue and cry that our religiously inspired society habitually raises over private sexual 'morality' serves as a dangerous distraction away from important matters of public morality such as the Blair/Bush lies about Iraq's weapons.

Now, here's a more difficult case. How about public figures lying about their religious affiliations? Shouldn't we refrain from prying into a politician's private religious views, just as we should refrain from prying into their private sexual behavior? Shouldn't public figures be entitled to lie about their religious affiliations (just like the many atheists that the laws of probability tell us must be there in Congress)? Not always. The reason is that religious views, even if they seem private in themselves, can become public in their implications. John F. Kennedy asked voters to believe that he would not take orders from the Vatican when formulating policy, and in his case they probably were right to do so. But George Bush has publicly boasted that God told him to invade Iraq, and his religious faith obviously inspired his irrational stances on stem cell research, the Terri Schiavo case and many others. To push to an extreme, who would deny Congress's right to ask whether a candidate for Secretary of Health is a Christian Scientist or a Jehovah's Witness? Or take a Christian sect that fervently desires the Second Coming of Christ, and believes the key Revelation prophecies cannot be fulfilled without a Middle East Armageddon. Would you wish the nuclear button to be made available to a follower of such a creed?

So much is obvious. However, following an excellent Slate article by Christopher Hitchens, I would go further. Mitt Romney, as a self-confessed Mormon, has stated his beliefs about the Second Coming as follows: "Christ appears in Jerusalem, splits the Mount of Olives and stops that war to kill the Jews. We also believe that over the 1,000 years that follow, the millennium, he will reign from two places: that the law will come from one place, Missouri; the other will be in Jerusalem." The thing about Missouri, you see, is that it is the site (I'm not joking) of the Garden of Eden. Mitt Romney apparently believes that the Book of Mormon is the dictated word of God. The fact that Joseph Smith wrote it in 16th century pseudo-biblical English although he was a 19th century man marks him out — along with much else -- as a charlatan, yet Mitt Romney apparently is gullible enough to be taken in by the scam. After Smith "translated" them, the gold tablets containing God's words conveniently shot off to Heaven before anybody else could examine them. If a man is gullible enough to believe that, would you trust him to negotiate on your country's behalf in the tough chancelleries of the world?

Smith's book instructs Mormons to hold beliefs about human racial origins and about the history of America from 600 BC that are at worst racist and at best frankly bonkers. Are voters entitled to ask Mr Romney questions about his religious beliefs? Surely yes, if they affect his policies, for example over race relations: the Mormon Church banned black people from its equivalent of a priesthood until as late as 1978 (when Mormon Elders conveniently had a "revelation"). But going beyond direct influences on policies, would you wish to be governed by a man who has such a cock-eyed view of reality that he thinks the Garden of Eden was in Missouri, even if he keeps that cock-eyed view private?

Returning to the original topic of sex outside marriage, I want to raise another question that interests me. Why are we so obsessed with monogamous fidelity in the first place? Agony Aunt columns ring with the cries of those who have detected -- or fear -- that their man/woman (who may or may not be married to them) is "cheating on them". "Cheating" really is the word that occurs most readily to these people. The underlying presumption -- that a human being has some kind of property rights over another human being's body -- is unspoken because it is assumed to be obvious. But with what justification?

In one of the most disgusting stories to hit the British newspapers last year, the wife of a well-known television personality, Chris Tarrant, hired a private detective to spy on him. The detective reported evidence of adultery and Tarrant's wife divorced him, in unusually vicious style. But what shocked me was the way public opinion sided with Tarrant's horrible wife. Far from despising, as I do, anybody who would stoop so low as to hire a detective for such a purpose, large numbers of people, including even Mr. Tarrant himself, seemed to think she was fully justified. Far from concluding, as I would, that he was well rid of her, he was covered with contrition and his unfortunate mistress was ejected, covered with odium. The explanation of all these anomalous behavior patterns is the ingrained assumption of the deep rightness and appropriateness of sexual jealousy. It is manifest all the way from Othello to the French "crime passionnel" law, down to the "love rat" language of tabloid newspapers.

From a Darwinian perspective, sexual jealousy is easily understood. Natural selection of our wild ancestors plausibly favored males who guarded their mates for fear of squandering economic resources on other men's children. On the female side, it is harder to make a Darwinian case for the sort of vindictive jealousy displayed by Mrs. Tarrant. No doubt hindsight could do it, but I want to make a different point. Sexual jealousy may in some Darwinian sense accord with nature, but "Nature, Mr. Allnutt, is what we are put in this world to rise above." Just as we rise above nature when we spend time writing a book or a symphony rather than devoting our time to sowing our selfish genes and fighting our rivals, so mightn't we rise above nature when tempted by the vice of sexual jealousy?

I, for one, feel drawn to the idea that there is something noble and virtuous in rising above nature in this way. I admit that I have, at times in my life, been jealous, but it is one of the things I now regret. Assuming that such practical matters as sexually transmitted diseases and the paternity of children can be sorted out (and nowadays DNA testing will clinch that for you if you are sufficiently suspicious, which I am not), what, actually, is wrong with loving more than one person? Why should you deny your loved one the pleasure of sexual encounters with others, if he or she is that way inclined? The British writer Julie Burchill is not somebody I usually quote (imagine a sort of intelligent Ann Coulter speaking with a British accent in a voice like Minnie Mouse) but I was struck by one of her remarks. I can't find the exact quote, but it was to the effect that, however much you love your mate (of either sex in the case of the bisexual Burchill) sex with a stranger is almost always more exciting, purely because it is a stranger. An exaggeration, no doubt, but the same grain of truth lurks in Woody Allen's "Sex without love is an empty experience, but as empty experiences go it's one of the best."

Even sticking to the higher plane of love, is it so very obvious that you can't love more than one person? We seem to manage it with parental love (parents are reproached if they don't at least pretend to love all their children equally), love of books, of food, of wine (love of Chateau Margaux does not preclude love of a fine Hock, and we don't feel unfaithful to the red when we dally with the white), love of composers, poets, holiday beaches, friends . . . why is erotic love the one exception that everybody instantly acknowledges without even thinking about it? Why can a woman not love two men at the same time, in their different ways? And why should the two — or their wives -- begrudge her this? If we are being Darwinian, it might be easier to make the case the other way, for a man sincerely and deeply loving more than one woman. But I don't want to pursue the details here.

I'm not denying the power of sexual jealousy. It is ubiquitous if not universal. I'm just wondering aloud why we all accept it so readily, without even thinking about it. And why don't we all admire — as I increasingly do -- those rare free spirits confident enough to rise above jealousy, stop fretting about who is "cheating on" whom, and tell the green-eyed monster to go jump in the lake?


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1. Comment #91839 by Fanusi Khiyal on November 29, 2007 at 12:46 pm

On the subject of sexual jealously, has anyone else followed this ridiculous businesss of Hillary Clinton habving a lesbian affair with that aide orwhatever she is?

Of course, noone bothers to ask the real question, of what the hell Clinton is doing associating with someone who is probably a Wahabi Muslim.

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2. Comment #91842 by LDmiller on November 29, 2007 at 12:49 pm

 avatarIs RD trying to tell us something here???

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3. Comment #91845 by Thor on November 29, 2007 at 12:55 pm

 avatarI agree with pretty much every single statement Prof. Dawkins makes in the article above, but I am also aware that this is THE perfect way to get the "there are no morals without Jesus"-crowd to come crawling out of the sewers.

I salute your courage, Professor, in taking a necessary further step: attacking one of the many ways in which so-called "Judeo-Christian morality" still forms and defines our culture.

Not all of it is bad, mind you. Just as one can find wise counsel and helpful advice in all human traditions of thought, be they religous traditions like Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism (hell, maybe even in Islam, though I am doubtful) or in more secular traditions as Stoicism, Epicureanism, Confucianism etc... one will, of course, find some useful ethical tales in the Bible.
(and yes, I know that categorizing Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and Stoicism into either "secular" or "religious" is not a straightforward proposition - personally, I couldn't care less which way they fall)

But the arbiter of what is useful and what isn't must be factual knowledge about the way this world works (i.e. science, and in this specific case various branches of psychology, evolutionary biology and neuroscience - all that which informs us on how we humans function) AND a thorough examination of our own conscience with ethical principles that are informed by the all-surpassing achievement of the Enlightenment: the idea of human rights.

If anyone is interested in knowing more about the way in which even thoroughly secular people often unquestioniongly accept moral principles of 2000-year old middle-eastern sky-gods I recommend Michel Onfray's "Atheist Manifesto: The Case Against Christianity, Judaism, and Islam".

Other Comments by Thor

4. Comment #91849 by Arcturus on November 29, 2007 at 12:58 pm

 avatarTwo quotes:

"This poor ersatz Martian is saying that sex is a way to be happy. Sex should be a means of happiness. Ben, the worst thing about sex is that we use it to hurt each other. It ought never to hurt; it should bring happiness, or at least pleasure.
"The code says, 'Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife.' The result? Reluctant chastity, bitterness, blows and sometimes murder, broken homes and twisted children — and furtive little passes degrading to woman and man. Is this Commandment ever obeyed? If a man swore on his own Bible that he refrained from coveting his neighbor's wife because the code forbade it, I would suspect either self-deception or subnormal sexuality. Any man virile enough to sire a child has coveted many women, whether he acts or not.


Jealousy is a disease, love is a healthy condition. The immature mind often mistakes one for the other, or assumes that the greater the love, the greater the jealousy — in fact, they are almost incompatible; one emotion hardly leaves room for the other.

from: Stranger in a strange land

Everybody should read this book ...

Other Comments by Arcturus

5. Comment #91853 by padster1976 on November 29, 2007 at 1:00 pm

 avatarHmm, interesting article.

It has made me think. One gets 'swinger' parties after all. Perhaps they are the evolved ones? Clearly, they do not have the green eyed monster!

The sexual act is how the species propagate itself so I can see how this aspect of our behaviour may present itself as different. But is it an environmental pressure change? I'e of natural selection. Certainly, if the genes aim is to copy itself as many times, shagging loads is fair way of achieving that! Or perhaps its society pressure? Anti or a counter culture, subversive reaction or revolt against the perceived 'norm' of '1 on 1'.

I thought while reading the article that threesomes don't get bad press. Quite the opposite in fact. A fair feature of erotica. (No shame in knowing that!) ;-P

Those that would start bleating on about STD's etc, well, these are consenting adults and if they wish to do 'it' without any form of protection, then we can disagree, but should not condemn them for it. It is their decision and they have to live with the consequences.

I liked Dawkins questions on the Darwinian perspective. Swans are mates for life however most species i think do not keep monogamous relationships. Indeed, most people will have sex with more than one person. So I suppose in that respect, so longs as its one at a time, is is more acceptable?

I think I can guess some of the criticisms Dawkins will face - promoting promiscuity and being (shudder) unfaithful to the persons partner.

One way of looking at it is that if 'playing away from home' is part of Tarrant's person, then his wife should accept it or look at herself. If my other half went with someone else, yes i'd be hurt but I'd want to know why. There is always the case that they just wanted something different. There's another criticism the article may face - 'relationships are no more important that shoes' - merely change them when you want another pair'. Obviously this over simplifies the nuances of Dawkins argument. Lets face, that's not exactly never happed before. However, the article has provide interesting ways to look at human behaviour. It has certainly made me think - why do we automatically assume the word cheating? what do we mean by that?

Thought provoking and refreshingly different article.

Other Comments by padster1976

6. Comment #91854 by Mr DArcy on November 29, 2007 at 1:03 pm

 avatarDon't forget that Hilary was helped through that episode of Bill and Monica by her faith in God!

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7. Comment #91855 by Shrunk on November 29, 2007 at 1:04 pm

 avatarI agree that it is useful, of not obligatory, to question mores that have traditionally been relgious in nature. The changing attitudes towards homosexuality, for instance, is one of the more fortunate results of the diminishing role of religion as the arbiter of moral standards.

However, sexual monogamy is not quite in the same boat as homosexuality, in the sense of the latter being something proscribed for arbitrary religious reasons. I think monogamy has as much to do with trust and honesty as with sex. The simple fact is, for most couples there is an expectation that their partner will not have other sexual partners. One reason for this might be that it is difficult to become sexually involved with someone without also becoming emotionally involved.

In any event, I think it is important to view such issues in terms of actual harm done to other individuals, even if that harm is strictly emotional, rather than in terms of adherence to abstract moral values. And certainly, too often, jealousy has prompted the supposedly "wronged" party to commit acts far more heinous than a mere affair.

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8. Comment #91858 by treeman17 on November 29, 2007 at 1:09 pm

 avatarIf I can play devil's advocate, the problem that I had with Clinton was that he had sex in the Oval Office, not that he lied about it. Unless you happen to be a porn star, sex at work is generally frowned upon, and for sure it is something that could get any of us fired.

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9. Comment #91859 by kade on November 29, 2007 at 1:11 pm

i agree with beth that sexual jealously, especially male sexual jealousy, is the cause of a good deal of violence.

and i know that it is incredibly irrational to want someone all for ourselves. i just don't see how these feelings can be rationalized away. the more i consider the question, the more i feel like a hypocrite for praising reason while harboring sentiments that are anything but reasonable.

in my experience, there is a moment in an intimate relationship in which my mind has ceased to "romp..like the mind of God", and there is what seems to be an irresitable urge to curb the promiscuous tendencies of her mind as well. of course, i would never use violence, or the threat of violence to do so.

and i treasure this moment, and i wouldn't trade it for the world. and on this point, to hell with rationality.

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10. Comment #91860 by Jab on November 29, 2007 at 1:14 pm

 avatarThis has been an opinion I've had for some time now, Richard put it much better than I ever could though.

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11. Comment #91862 by Matt H. on November 29, 2007 at 1:16 pm

 avatarRichard, thank you ever so much for writing that. I enjoyed reading it.

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12. Comment #91863 by dgr8test97 on November 29, 2007 at 1:16 pm

Dawkins is wrong here. He is correct in that sexual jealousy is stupid, but he is missing the point. When someone gives his or her word to another person, he or she must keep that word. This is what cheating is about. If one is in a "open marriage" then one can have sex with any one wants without lying then it is not cheating. When a man marries a women (any relationship for that matter)and swears to the women that he would not have sex with someone else than he needs to follow up on it. Its that simple. I am anti-marriage and anti-monogamy because most people can't keep their vows. But if two people feel that the best way to express their love is through monogamy than more power to them. Cheating is about lying. Love is about sacrifice. If the sacrifice is no sex with third parties than so be it. Dawkins needs to think more poetically and less scientifically when it comes to love.

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13. Comment #91865 by Rationalist1 on November 29, 2007 at 1:25 pm

A quote, perhaps apocryphal, is attributed to the late Canadian Prime Minister, who in 1976 was asked by a male reporter what he thought of his then wife Margaret cavorting with the Rolling Stones. He is supposed to have replied to the reporter that "A gentleman does not reply to such questions" and then after an appropriate pause, "and furthermore a gentleman does not ask such questions"

If President Bill Clinton could have said that, or words to that effect, we might have been spared the farce of the impeachment and the calamity of the past 7 years.

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14. Comment #91866 by USA_Limey on November 29, 2007 at 1:26 pm

 avatarStarted terribly but got better. Defending Clintons lying about his philandering on the American tax payers dime in the whitehouse is not the way to go Prof. Also, there are serious unanswered allegations about the level of coersion used in a whole string of 'encounters' by Bill.

I know you hate Bush RD and that's ok - but Clinton was despicable.

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15. Comment #91867 by BaronOchs on November 29, 2007 at 1:27 pm

 avatardgr8test97:

When a man marries a women (any relationship for that matter)and swears to the women that he would not have sex with someone else than he needs to follow up on it.


But why is it regarded as so crucial that couples must commit themselves to this for the rest of their lives when there is no obvious reason to, and like you say they can be "polygamous/polyandrous" or whatever and be honest with each other about it.

This article reminds me of Bertrand Russell's essay "On Catholic and Protestant Freethinkers" (published in Why I am not a Christian) where he muses on a type of post-protestant atheist who will reject religion but cannot bring themselves to abandon various protestant mores.

Dawkins it seems is not that kind of atheist. I'm glad he will not refrain from writing this kind of thing for some suppossed tactical reason.

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16. Comment #91868 by black wolf on November 29, 2007 at 1:27 pm

 avatarRichard is echoing my own thinking on this matter. I know that I have my jealous moments, as probably most of us evolved ones do. But my marriage is healthy because we can discuss any desires we have, even if it may be for someone closer at hand than a movie star or fashion model. We're open and honest about this, and we therefore have good reason to trust each other. Christians keep asking, where is your evidence for love? Well, there it is.

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17. Comment #91870 by Lana on November 29, 2007 at 1:31 pm

That's exactly right, dgr8test97. (May I call you digger?) It's a trust issue. Certainly, people may be attracted to others, but if they've given their word, they should abstain from acting on the attraction until they've extracted themselves from the relationship. I must admit I haven't always lived up to that ideal, but I've never tried to rationalize it away either.

Are others also unsettled by this article? It's like he's seeking the justification to cheat. I had never thought about his personal life before but I find this a bit disappointing for no rational reason.

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18. Comment #91871 by BaronOchs on November 29, 2007 at 1:32 pm

 avatarLifelong heterosexual monogamy I'm sure is brilliant, but it won't work for everyone and it's not some kind of golden ideal towards which everyone must aspire or count themselves a failure.

This is where the churches go wrong, they idolise marriage, they're marriagolaters.

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19. Comment #91873 by Titus on November 29, 2007 at 1:36 pm

Like Arcturus I immediately thought of Heinlein when I read this piece. I'm sure that Heinlein's works had quite an influence on me as a teenager; for as an adult I find myself mystified by others' rapid and unreasonable desire to leap into the quagmire of jealousy.
Were you a fan Richard? I do hope so.

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20. Comment #91874 by USA_Limey on November 29, 2007 at 1:37 pm

 avatarComment #91870 by Lana:

Are others also unsettled by this article?


Frankly yes. As i said in my first post above, I thought the first few paragraphs were terrible and even - I have to say it - bizarre.

I'm going to put this down to an off day for the good prof.

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21. Comment #91876 by Fedler on November 29, 2007 at 1:43 pm

 avatarI'm torn. My brother recently separated from his wife (not yet divorced) because she started a relationship with another man. He didn't fly into a fit of rage or seek to make her life hell. He just wanted to know why. He has thus far been reluctant to file for the divorce.

I suggested to him that if she wants to screw around (literally), she needs to do so as a legitimate single, unmarried person and urged him to file for the divorce. She's making a mockery of their promise to be faithful to each other, it doesn't matter if it's anti-Darwinian.

So I can see the point of dgr8test97, but I can also understand there is no obvious natural reason to commit to one person. Especially no reason to totally run the person through the ringer via sexual jealousy.

Getting too far, perhaps, outside the box…what if the other person you want to love is a relative, like a cousin? There perhaps is no obvious reason to commit to one person, but how does that apply in an incestual relationship? Just a thought I figured I would throw out there…..

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22. Comment #91878 by ubermensch on November 29, 2007 at 1:44 pm

Dawkins is confusing 2 arguments here. One is the question of sexual mores, and the other is of trust. If the 2 parties in a relationship have each agreed that their relationship is 'open', then I don't see a problem if one or both have multiple partners. However, if one partner has a 'extra-marital' relationship without disclosing this to the other partner, and whilst pretending that all is well with their relationship, then trust is broken, just as it would be if one party gambled away the family silver. I agree that Clinton's sexual escapades were no business of the press or the public - but they were the business of his wife. Assuming that she was unaware of his relationship(s), she had every right to feel betrayed, and cheated against.

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23. Comment #91879 by manitoumackinac on November 29, 2007 at 1:49 pm

 avatarWith god and religion out the window, something about this subject confuses me, and this is mainly due to many of the dynamics involved in relationships between two romantic partners. Sexual jealousy is something that can be explained well under Darwinian terms, but also Darwinian explanations can also be used effectively to explain "cheating", or at least when a partner has a fantasy about sex with another person outside the relationship. To me this seems like a type of Darwinian double standard that is engrained in our nature. Cultural norms have emphasized monogamy in relationships, and these norms can be seen as obsolete, especially with the invention of effective birth control. But yet, there are many shades of gray involved in the morals about sexual infidelity and jealousy. It can be argued that the consequences of sexual behavior, if performed without precaution, can lead to the birth of a child. It is far easier for two parents who are living together in today's society to raise a child than it is for a single parent, and this is mainly due to economic reasons. Could sexual jealousy have something to do with that? I am not satisfied with the idea of a Darwinian double standard, and perhaps I am overlooking something important. And so it appears to me that if I put the question of sexual jealousy into the terms of nature verses nurture, could this simply be a nurture question?

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24. Comment #91881 by upsidedawn on November 29, 2007 at 1:52 pm

 avatarJust to cast my "vote," I agree with dgr8test97, Lana, and ubermensch. I am uncomfortable with the article for the reasons they have indicated.

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25. Comment #91882 by Titus on November 29, 2007 at 1:54 pm

Lana, I'm inclined to think you're disappointment is the result of your upbringing which is, inevitably, steeped in theocratic morality. Rationally, monogamous relationships can hardly be a natural state for the human species; for if they were Richard would not have needed to write the article. The need for both sexes to seek multiple partners is evidenced by the behaviour itself.
It is true that some find happiness in lifelong monogamous relationships, but they are overwhelmingly the exception.
I for one long for a world where people could be genuinely honest and open about their desires without the artificial, and usually hypocritical, guilt imposed by an artificial and patently unnatural morality.

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26. Comment #91884 by USA_Limey on November 29, 2007 at 1:57 pm

 avatarComment #91878 by ubermensch was:

I agree that Clinton's sexual escapades were no business of the press or the public


Wrong, wrong, WRONG

These weren't some past indiscretions by Bill when he was a freshman at college, like the whole 'I smoked but I didn't inhale' fiasco - I agree that was nobody's business. He was POTUS, in a position of extreme power and the EMPLOYER of Ms Lewinsky, (and others - there were others). He screwed around ON THE JOB and IN THE OFFICE.

He should have been fired no question.

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27. Comment #91885 by Corylus on November 29, 2007 at 1:58 pm

 avatar
...love of Chateau Margaux does not preclude love of a fine Hock, and we don't feel unfaithful to the red when we dally with the white...
Glad to hear it's a fine Hock and not a Blue Nun.

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28. Comment #91890 by upsidedawn on November 29, 2007 at 2:08 pm

 avatar
He screwed around ON THE JOB and IN THE OFFICE.

He should have been fired no question.

Well, he was found out to have done so. That was his problem, right?

Because for sure there've been lots of people who have screwed around on the job and not found out. There will have been rumors about it, too, but no pursuit of it, so the people involved won't suffer any consequences.

Honestly, I understand why companies have rules about it, but personally I don't care if someone else does it at work.

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29. Comment #91893 by Matt H. on November 29, 2007 at 2:14 pm

 avatarBut isn't the White House the President's house? Why exactly couldn't he have sex in his own house? Are you in favour of banning people having sex in their homes?

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30. Comment #91897 by Jiten on November 29, 2007 at 2:16 pm

 avatarWhat a brilliant piece by Dawkins who never fails to surprise me with his new way of looking at things.I loved his idea that you can love more than one child,wine,film,album,friend etc..,and so why not more than one lover?

Some of the other posters here have said it's about trust.But it's only about trust if it's done behind your back and lying is involved,not when it's all out in the open.

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31. Comment #91898 by Anubis on November 29, 2007 at 2:17 pm

 avatar
Lana, I'm inclined to think you're disappointment is the result of your upbringing which is, inevitably, steeped in theocratic morality.


I think this may be the key to a lot of the unease when reading this article. The ideas of multiple relationships have such a taboo on them because of the whole "family values" crap, not because the actions actually harm people.

Getting rid of all the angst built up from sexual jealousy and having good sexual adventures with multiple people sounds like a fun time personally. Any argument against it just comes from the values crowd.

Heck, I felt strange just writing that. Those damn values are deep rooted in society indeed.

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32. Comment #91901 by USA_Limey on November 29, 2007 at 2:20 pm

 avatarComment #91893 by Matt7895:

But isn't the White House the President's house? Why exactly couldn't he have sex in his own house?Are you in favour of banning people having sex in their homes?


You've got to be joking right? Please tell me you're joking.

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33. Comment #91902 by Diacanu on November 29, 2007 at 2:23 pm

 avatarEhhh, I just don't wanna be a swinger.
Besides, I'm too lazy to juggle multiple relationships.
Plus, I'd be lucky to get the first chick, as if I'm gonna be on the hunt for more.

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34. Comment #91904 by tacitus on November 29, 2007 at 2:25 pm

Some of the other posters here have said it's about trust.But it's only about trust if it's done behind your back and lying is involved,not when it's all out in the open.


True, but good luck in finding a partner who truly shares that ethos. Often times it's the woman who has decided to accept her dominant husband's sleeping around because she's afraid of losing him or for the sake of the kids or out of some misplaced belief of religious duty or in the belief that she can change him. That is not a healthy relationship.

I see nothing wrong if it is a relationship of equals (which any marriage should be) and both parties agree to the terms when they first entered that relationship.

(I guess those in the porn industry do this type stuff all the time, but I'm not sure too many people would be too willing to see them used as the archetype :)

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35. Comment #91905 by Eventhorizon on November 29, 2007 at 2:30 pm

 avatarOf course somebody has the right to be jealous if their partner has an affair.
If you dont want to be in a monogomous relationship then dont be in one. If you want to sleep around then fine but dont lie to someone who believes they are the only one.
It really comes down to honesty.
I'm not sure if Richard intends this to read the way that it does. Maybe he'll clarify with a follow up?

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36. Comment #91907 by BigChiefRainInFace on November 29, 2007 at 2:32 pm

 avatarI think the Professor is on to something and his message is thought provoking.

I didn't follow the Clinton scandal but I think it was an uninspired choice to illustrate his point. The article gives the impression of being crammed with too many controversial issues that are supposed to enforce each other. Instead, if you attack one argument convincingly, it seems to fall like a castle of cards.

Perhaps it was years of dealing with religious ignorance of evolution (as opposed to a moment of inspiration) that has created the crystal-clarity arguments in TGD; I think we've all seen that his media appearances have gotten more powerful and concise as time went by, no doubt as a result of being confronted with misunderstanding and fair criticism of the way he expresses his ideas.

If that is the case, can we view this article as a first attempt, a mighty swing at the issue and expect its central theme to be better represented in the future?

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37. Comment #91908 by Janus on November 29, 2007 at 2:34 pm

 avatarAbout the article: I liked it, but it's all over the place. What does sexual jealousy have to do with whether a country's leader's religious affiliation should be a public matter?

About "cheating": I agree with the Professor, sexual jealousy is an instinct that was probably shaped by evolution, and that was preserved and strengthened by various religions. That said, I also agree with thegreatest that "cheating" is wrong in the sense that breaking an agreement between two people is wrong. Still, the Professor's article remains mostly valid, because most people think they're obliged to make such an agreement, and they usually believe that cheating is wrong because of the actual extramarital sex, not because a promise was broken.

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38. Comment #91911 by Goldy on November 29, 2007 at 2:36 pm

 avatarI'd show this to my wife, but she'd give me "The Look" and probably hit my surgery scar :-)
Jealousy is something we feel - can't help it. If my wife cheats on me, i will be bloody gutted and very angry. Should I cheat on her, she'll probably try and kill me. On marriage, we made a commitment - actually we made a commitment and then decided to get married for the parents. I know I can love more than 1 woman, in fact, I know I do - but I married 1 and I shall stick to her. The others just have to enjoy my company and imagine what I would be like undressed and in bed. It's just the promise I made. No gods involved - I made that promise to my wife.
Of course, I am not like everyone else. Others will see things differently and act accordingly. I will not judge them...or at least rty not to judge. Adn given the right circumstances, I don't know if I can fully maintain my promise. Hopefully that circumstance will never manifest itself :-)

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39. Comment #91912 by gyokusai on November 29, 2007 at 2:38 pm

 avatarOthers have already made the point, but I would indeed rather think that the Oral Office Incident should be discussed less in terms of (private) sex but in terms of (public) power and the possible abuse involved.

But howsoever and whatever the case may be: what Richard says here about jealousy and love would make him MY PERSONAL HERO if he didn't happen to have attained that status already, and quite some time ago!

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you ...

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40. Comment #91913 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on November 29, 2007 at 2:40 pm

 avatarFrankly yes. As i said in my first post above, I thought the first few paragraphs were terrible and even - I have to say it - bizarre.

Except to practically everyone in Europe. This american obsession with prudery and Clintons penis!! Let it go.

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41. Comment #91914 by tacitus on November 29, 2007 at 2:46 pm

(Yuck -- I didn't see the warning about lost messages, and just lost a long one).

Anyway, I don't believe the sexual jealousy and betrayal people feel is because of some religious taboo against sex outside marriage. I think it's a consequence of the way we and our society have evolved. Most of us would claim that an equal partnership in marriage (or any long-term relationship) is the ideal, even though religions claim and evolution indicates that that is not the norm. So on what basis do we reject sexual jealousy and betrayal as valid feelings to have when someone betrays our long-term trust in them? It's in our genes. It's who we are.

Even as an atheist I see the benefit of raising kids in a stable family home where two people (gay or straight) can share the experience and share the load. While it's not for everyone, it is obviously a highly fulfilling experience to many, even if they have no religious beliefs.

So when you have committed so much time and resources to that relationship it is only natural to feel betrayed when your partner goes behind your back and cheats on you. And it's not just about the sex, there is usually the diversion of money, time, and other resources away from injured party and the family.

As for looking up to people who do not feel sexual jealousy, well, it depends. If they use that trait to leave a trail of shattered hopes and betrayals in their wake, then there's nothing to admire about them -- they simply lack any sense of empathy. I've known a couple of that type of person, and they are not people you want to trust in any form of relationship.

So while it's fine in theory, there really is no getting away from our jealousies or the emotional and physical consequences of sexual betrayal for most of us. It's simply who we are, and all the rationalisation in the world can't wish it away.

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42. Comment #91916 by upsidedawn on November 29, 2007 at 2:49 pm

 avatar
I'd be lucky to get the first chick, as if I'm gonna be on the hunt for more.

But I'm absolutely certain that the professor would not have a problem in the world finding other opportunities, without even trying.

Including some of us here, who are otherwise monogamous...

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43. Comment #91918 by Diacanu on November 29, 2007 at 2:50 pm

 avatarBeth-

Good examples.
Also, George Washington seemed to have had a romance with his best friend's wife that his friend seemed to be cool with.

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44. Comment #91919 by Fedler on November 29, 2007 at 2:51 pm

 avatar
This american obsession with prudery and Clintons penis!! Let it go.
Thought-provoking as always, Brian :-). But I think that's an important factor. The societal differences between Europe and North America have a great deal to do with the 'comfort level' of some posters on this, including myself.

I can see the Professor's point, but I'm just not altogether with him on this way of thinking yet. Maybe I will be later in life, but not today.

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45. Comment #91920 by chuckgoecke on November 29, 2007 at 2:51 pm

 avatarUSA_Limey:
Defending Clintons lying about his philandering on the American tax payers dime in the whitehouse


Limey, if you could say that you have always given 100% of your time to your employer, you can make this comment un-hypocritically. But I doubt it. Clinton screwed up, no doubt, but neither the screw-up or the lying about it after word, come even remotely close to impeachable, except to a wickedly partisan congress. Clinton was a relatively brilliant president, especially considering the congresses he had to work with. He never lied about national security related issues such as Iraq, nor used his power to suppress good science, or career federal prosecuters. It was unfortunate that Clinton's indiscretions occurred in the Whitehouse, but remember, this is where he lived and worked, and it was the only place available to him. As for cohersion of a subordinate, I think Monica was the aggressor in this situation, she knew what she was doing, and knew enough to save the evidence, for what ever future plans she had for it. I wish you could, like his wonderful wife, find some way of forgiving him.
As for the breach of trust in a marriage, when there is an acceptable choice of degree of monogamy, perhaps some marriages can be held up to higher standards. People all have this reptilian personality lurking inside of them, and they will screw up occasionally. Is a 20 minute screw-up enough reason to throw away a twenty year relationship?

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46. Comment #91921 by tacitus on November 29, 2007 at 2:51 pm

why would someone suggest that people in the porn industry are the only people to have sex and love outside their marriage??? What???).

If you mean me, I wasn't suggesting that it was the only example. I simply used it as an obvious example which I suspect is familiar to many. :)

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47. Comment #91922 by Diacanu on November 29, 2007 at 2:52 pm

 avatarupsidedawn-

But I'm absolutely certain that the professor would not have a problem in the world finding other opportunities, without even trying.


Ah, so this article is him bragging then.
;)

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48. Comment #91923 by etny on November 29, 2007 at 2:55 pm

Well here we have it: RD has just given ammunition to those who believe that there can be no morality without a God. And that science cannot tell us how we should live our lives. That secularism leads to decadence. Believe me, we are going to get an earful following this little article. This article opens a great big can of worms. Actually, the biggest of all.

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49. Comment #91925 by Goldy on November 29, 2007 at 3:01 pm

 avatar
Well here we have it: RD has just given ammunition to those who believe that there can be no morality without a God

So...Islam is wrong, then? They're allowed 4 wives - as long as the man can treat them all equally. Old style Mormons are also polygamous (though not legally) - are they less moral?
Morality is a touchy subject, eh? Seems this God deity said thou shalt not to some and thou shalt to others on the same subject....

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50. Comment #91927 by upsidedawn on November 29, 2007 at 3:02 pm

 avatar
Ah, so this article is him bragging then.
;)

Ha! Well you know, Diacanu, I laughed aloud when I read the second post from L D Miller, "Is RD trying to tell us something here???" because that's exactly what I had wondered.

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