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Sudan demo over jailed UK teacher
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Crowds of people have marched in Sudan's capital Khartoum to call for a tougher sentence for a British teacher imprisoned for insulting religion.
Gillian Gibbons, 54, from Liverpool, was jailed for 15 days on Thursday after allowing children in her class to name a teddy bear Muhammad.
Some reports said protesters had called for her to be shot. Her lawyer said she was later moved for her own safety.
Muslim Labour peer Lord Ahmed is on his way to Sudan to push for her release.
Lord Ahmed, who is being accompanied by the Conservatives' Baroness Sayeeda Warsi, expects to meet President Omar al-Bashir and possibly the chief justice. He is travelling at the invitation of the Sudanese government.
'Kill her'
The Foreign Office said Mrs Gibbons had been visited again by consular staff on Friday and that she was "well", but it could not confirm where she was being held.
A spokeswoman said: "We are pursuing diplomatic contacts with the Sudanese government, we are continuing to do so and will throughout the weekend both in London and Khartoum.
"We are continuing to search for a swift resolution of this issue."
The Foreign Office said it had been in touch with Lord Ahmed about his trip to Sudan but added that it was a private visit.
The BBC's Adam Mynott in Khartoum said Mrs Gibbons was initially held in a women's prison, but was later moved to a secret location following the protests.
The marchers took to the streets after Friday prayers to denounce the sentence as too lenient.
The protesters gathered in Martyrs Square, outside the presidential palace in the capital, many of them carrying knives and sticks.
Some news agencies reported thousands of people took part in the protest, but a BBC reporter at the scene said up to a thousand marchers turned out.
According to some agencies, some of the protesters chanted: "Shame, shame on the UK", "No tolerance - execution" and "Kill her, kill her by firing squad".
One demonstrator told reporters that it was unacceptable to take a toy and call it Muhammad.
"We can't accept it from anybody. Even if they can do that in Europe, they cannot do it here in Sudan. We ask our rulers and judges to review what they have said. Fifteen days is not enough."
Hundreds of riot police were deployed but they did not break up the demonstration.
The Foreign Office said it was seeking more details about the protest.
'Strongest terms'
Prime Minister Gordon Brown has been in touch with Mrs Gibbons' family for a second time, speaking to a close relative of the teacher.
Foreign Secretary David Miliband has expressed "in the strongest terms" the UK's concern at her detention.
He said there were no plans to issue advice to British nationals living and working in Sudan in the light of the trouble, but diplomatic staff were keeping "a close eye" on the situation.
The Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, said he could not "see any justification" for the sentence, calling it an "absurdly disproportionate response" to a "minor cultural faux pas".
The Federation of Student Islamic Societies (Fosis), which represents more than 90,000 Muslim students in the UK and Ireland, said it was "deeply concerned" at what was a "gravely disproportionate" verdict.
The federation's president, Ali Alhadithi, said: "What we have here is a case of cultural misunderstandings, and the delicacies of the matter demonstrate that it was not the intention of Gillian Gibbons to imply any offence against Islam or Muslims.
"We hope that the Sudanese authorities will take immediate action to secure a safe release for Gillian Gibbons."
In September, Mrs Gibbons allowed her class of primary school pupils to name the teddy bear Muhammad as part of a study of animals and their habitats.
The court heard that she was arrested on Sunday after another member of staff at Unity High School complained to the Ministry of Education.
Reposted from:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7121025.stm
Alternate video link through the BBC website
Crowds of people have marched in Sudan's capital Khartoum to call for a tougher sentence for a British teacher imprisoned for insulting religion.Gillian Gibbons, 54, from Liverpool, was jailed for 15 days on Thursday after allowing children in her class to name a teddy bear Muhammad.
Some reports said protesters had called for her to be shot. Her lawyer said she was later moved for her own safety.
Muslim Labour peer Lord Ahmed is on his way to Sudan to push for her release.
Lord Ahmed, who is being accompanied by the Conservatives' Baroness Sayeeda Warsi, expects to meet President Omar al-Bashir and possibly the chief justice. He is travelling at the invitation of the Sudanese government.
'Kill her'
The Foreign Office said Mrs Gibbons had been visited again by consular staff on Friday and that she was "well", but it could not confirm where she was being held.
A spokeswoman said: "We are pursuing diplomatic contacts with the Sudanese government, we are continuing to do so and will throughout the weekend both in London and Khartoum.
"We are continuing to search for a swift resolution of this issue."
The Foreign Office said it had been in touch with Lord Ahmed about his trip to Sudan but added that it was a private visit.
The BBC's Adam Mynott in Khartoum said Mrs Gibbons was initially held in a women's prison, but was later moved to a secret location following the protests.
The marchers took to the streets after Friday prayers to denounce the sentence as too lenient.
The protesters gathered in Martyrs Square, outside the presidential palace in the capital, many of them carrying knives and sticks.
Some news agencies reported thousands of people took part in the protest, but a BBC reporter at the scene said up to a thousand marchers turned out.
According to some agencies, some of the protesters chanted: "Shame, shame on the UK", "No tolerance - execution" and "Kill her, kill her by firing squad".
One demonstrator told reporters that it was unacceptable to take a toy and call it Muhammad.
"We can't accept it from anybody. Even if they can do that in Europe, they cannot do it here in Sudan. We ask our rulers and judges to review what they have said. Fifteen days is not enough."
Hundreds of riot police were deployed but they did not break up the demonstration.
The Foreign Office said it was seeking more details about the protest.
'Strongest terms'
Prime Minister Gordon Brown has been in touch with Mrs Gibbons' family for a second time, speaking to a close relative of the teacher.
Foreign Secretary David Miliband has expressed "in the strongest terms" the UK's concern at her detention.
He said there were no plans to issue advice to British nationals living and working in Sudan in the light of the trouble, but diplomatic staff were keeping "a close eye" on the situation.
The Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, said he could not "see any justification" for the sentence, calling it an "absurdly disproportionate response" to a "minor cultural faux pas".
The Federation of Student Islamic Societies (Fosis), which represents more than 90,000 Muslim students in the UK and Ireland, said it was "deeply concerned" at what was a "gravely disproportionate" verdict.
The federation's president, Ali Alhadithi, said: "What we have here is a case of cultural misunderstandings, and the delicacies of the matter demonstrate that it was not the intention of Gillian Gibbons to imply any offence against Islam or Muslims.
"We hope that the Sudanese authorities will take immediate action to secure a safe release for Gillian Gibbons."
In September, Mrs Gibbons allowed her class of primary school pupils to name the teddy bear Muhammad as part of a study of animals and their habitats.
The court heard that she was arrested on Sunday after another member of staff at Unity High School complained to the Ministry of Education.
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Posted: Friday, November 30, 2007 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 70 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #92407 by GodlessHeathen on November 30, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Thank goodness Islam is a "religion of peace" or this could be troubling.sidfaiwu: Are they insane? Yes. Quite.
Other Comments by GodlessHeathen
3. Comment #92409 by ordeneus on November 30, 2007 at 12:55 pm
Wow, that's amazing. Think about how much it takes to get people out on the streets in the West... An impending war perhaps, or major social change. In Sudan, someone allowing children to name a teddy bear, a crime worthy of bringing people onto the streets, demanding a death. Freaking amazing!Other Comments by ordeneus
4. Comment #92410 by Rtambree on November 30, 2007 at 12:56 pm
What do you expect from a country engaged in the massacre of its own people?Other Comments by Rtambree
5. Comment #92411 by Mango on November 30, 2007 at 12:58 pm
A woman goes to a poor, strife-ridden country to be a teacher. While there the woman is jailed for blasphemy. I think there's a connection between 1) what is wrong with Sudan that she was needed in the first place, and 2) why she was jailed.
Other Comments by Mango
6. Comment #92421 by Serdan on November 30, 2007 at 1:08 pm
You gotta be fucking kidding me."The marchers took to the streets after Friday prayers to denounce the sentence as too lenient."
The next idiot who claims that Islam isn't the problem will receive a broken nose.
Other Comments by Serdan
7. Comment #92426 by Jolly Bloger on November 30, 2007 at 1:18 pm
Just... Wow. These people are a parody of themselves. I can't imagine a situation more horrific and ridiculous. Yet, I read that Gillian's son in Liverpool is asking people not to lose any respect for Islam over this. Is the whole world just engaged in mass self deception?More from me here:
http://jollybloger.blogspot.com/
Other Comments by Jolly Bloger
8. Comment #92433 by Pig_Called_Mohammed on November 30, 2007 at 1:41 pm
I'm very angry. Other Comments by Pig_Called_Mohammed
9. Comment #92434 by tieInterceptor on November 30, 2007 at 1:43 pm
When I just read the headline, " Sudan demo over jailed UK teacher", I thought that it was good. Some Sudanese realize how insane her imprisonment is and are demonstrating. Then I read the first line... "
the exact same thing happened to me, I just read the title before leaving work, and until now I did not get it. The level of nuttery of Islamic people still manages to surprise me from time to time.
Other Comments by tieInterceptor
10. Comment #92435 by rustylix on November 30, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Ah, the dark ages, and I thought it was 2007.The BBC actually sugar coated the title, of this article, from its previous version earlier in the day.
Other Comments by rustylix
11. Comment #92438 by technogogo on November 30, 2007 at 1:48 pm
I was thinking about this today. Trying to work out how the demonstration might come about. It seemed so orchestrated. The demonstration was after Friday prayers. So I wonder if it went like this: the imams fed their congregations with lies about a western woman who came to humiliate islam, to name a dog after the prophet (some stories suggest such lies are circulating) and various other misrepresentations. They rouse the crowds up. Then tell them to take to the streets to show the world that they will not be messed with. Tell them not to go back to work. Hand out of few prepared banners and there you have the demonstration. If you look at the footage several of the banners have very similar appearance. The protesters, in the main, appeared good natured.So I wonder the extent to which this was all about a staged demonstration of political power? Not religious power? Perhaps its about the imams grabbing the chance to show the sudanese government that they can put poeple out on the streets?
Other Comments by technogogo
12. Comment #92440 by sidfaiwu on November 30, 2007 at 1:58 pm
Great point, technogogo.It's easy to forget that not every country has such reliable access to information as we do.
Other Comments by sidfaiwu
13. Comment #92450 by Goldy on November 30, 2007 at 2:20 pm
I believe the demonstrations were being prepared before her trial. Given the media attention in the western press, this is hardly surprising. I believe it is a purely face saving gesture - the sharia court convict her so making them look important and show Sudan's contempt for the west and it's condemnation of the Sudanese government. Sudan shows it is a good Muslim country so other Mulsims can ignore the fact they are slaughtering thousands of fellow Muslims in Darfur, demonstrations are staged so the powers that be can point to them and say it is the will of the people.I wonder what would have happened had the teacher been Chinese?
Other Comments by Goldy
14. Comment #92452 by Jack Rawlinson on November 30, 2007 at 2:23 pm
Joly Bloger: well, I won't lose any respect for Islam over this. You know, since I didn't have any in the first place. Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson
15. Comment #92454 by room101 on November 30, 2007 at 2:25 pm
To Sarah Khawad, the secretary at the school in question who "ratted out" Gibbons: feel good about yourself now, bitch? Bet you're thinking you're going to get a big reward in heaven, don't you?I say we do the following: After we give some cash to the Ayaan fund we gather a movement together and get tens of thousands of teddy bears with the name "muhammed" embroidered on them - then air-drop them over downtown Khartoum.
Oh, and another thing for the sudanese officials directing this thing: Do you really think this is going to help you to draw attention and win aid for all those suffering in Darfur?
Fk'n idiots...I say start the carpet bombing.
Other Comments by room101
16. Comment #92460 by room101 on November 30, 2007 at 2:45 pm
And another thing...if none of the 7 year-olds in her class knew they were insulting Allah how the hell was Gibbons supposed to know??I sincerely hope that part of the above demonstrations were focused towards the inept parents of these kids as they clearly didn't teach them rule #1: Don't insult big Mo...
Other Comments by room101
17. Comment #92466 by Major Bloodnok on November 30, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Whoever was ultimately responsible for this demonstration, I vote that we revoke their membership of the human race.Jack Rawlinson: My thoughts exactly.
Other Comments by Major Bloodnok
18. Comment #92472 by BigJohn on November 30, 2007 at 3:11 pm
Kill the bitch!! After all she allowed the children in her charge to name the teddy bear as they wished. She should certainly die for her sins!
Seriously, I hope they got her out of the Sudan and into civilization.
Other Comments by BigJohn
19. Comment #92473 by BaronOchs on November 30, 2007 at 3:18 pm
It says I need to download something else to play the vid, then the page crashes.Oh well, what do the whiny islam lovers like Karen Armstrong say to themselves about all this?
Other Comments by BaronOchs
20. Comment #92476 by Andy_P on November 30, 2007 at 3:25 pm
I think that the fact the kids in question chose this name for their toy says one of two things:1. They willfully conspired to get this lady into trouble by picking this name.
or
2. They are kids. They were asked by a teacher to pick a name for the toy, and they chose, by a large majority, Mohammed. Presumably, for no other reason than they liked it.
I suggest, that since the kids were 7 years old, then nobody could possibly suggest any other reason than No.2.
Whether or not the protests were wholly or in part staged, they are no less sickening.
The insanity of this situation is breathtaking. Hitchens is right - Religion poisons everything.
Other Comments by Andy_P
21. Comment #92480 by Bonzai on November 30, 2007 at 3:32 pm
You know how this is going to be spun by some conspiracy junkies among Muslims in the West?They will say that it is a well orchestrated event by U.K intelligence. They either paid her to name the bear Mo or they hired some proxy to file the complaint against her, knowing that it would create a situation like this so that they use it to smear Islam and Muslims. I heard this kind of insanity after the cartoon incident.
Other Comments by Bonzai
22. Comment #92485 by nogodsever on November 30, 2007 at 3:47 pm
I feel sorry for the teddy bear, being named after a pedophile and all. Other Comments by nogodsever
23. Comment #92486 by PaulJ on November 30, 2007 at 3:49 pm
This whole affair is so patently ludicrous I can't help thinking we haven't got the whole story. Something else must be going on. Goldy's comment above suggests what this might be:I believe the demonstrations were being prepared before her trial.
Other Comments by PaulJ
24. Comment #92493 by mumbles on November 30, 2007 at 4:02 pm
sidfaiwu: My faith in humanity just took a major blow.
Why? You don't consider these cretins human, do you?
Other Comments by mumbles
25. Comment #92507 by Kell on November 30, 2007 at 4:34 pm
I agree with those posters above who suspect that this demonstration of self-righteous outrage was organised; that was my reaction when I read the article. Hitchens has also voiced this conclusion in past interviews. Other Comments by Kell
26. Comment #92510 by StraightEdge on November 30, 2007 at 4:42 pm
The name Mohamed was actually suggested by a little boy in the class called...Mohamed.The class then took a vote on all the suggested names and that one won. The kid has even said this publicly for the defence of the teacher.
Every time I hear more details about this story I get more and more angry.
When a 7 year old is displaying more logic and sanity than a country's government then you know there's something terribly wrong.
Other Comments by StraightEdge
27. Comment #92526 by mjwemdee on November 30, 2007 at 5:33 pm
Sudan sounds like the biggest open-air lunatic asylum ever.Re Comment No 7 by Jolly Bloger:
Yet, I read that Gillian's son in Liverpool is asking people not to lose any respect for Islam over this. Is the whole world just engaged in mass self deception?
I can only assume the poor man is doing so in fear that reprisals in the West would only jeopardize his mother's safety even further...
Other Comments by mjwemdee
28. Comment #92532 by Russell Blackford on November 30, 2007 at 5:51 pm
I must admit that I, too, initially assumed that this would be about some kind of spontaneous support for the poor teacher having her life and work ruined by a crazy system of so-called "justice". Obviously, I was naive, or maybe just in too sunny a mood today.Sigh.
The madness never ends.
Other Comments by Russell Blackford
29. Comment #92544 by Scott McMeekin on November 30, 2007 at 6:22 pm
I won't bother exercising my disgust with this state of affairs. Instead, I'd like to point out the one salient positive point (as small as it is) in all this. Echoing Richard's sentiments on the matter, a child of 7 is no more a muslim than they are a jew, a christian, a hindu, or any other religious follower.I wish Mrs Gibbons the best of luck, for in the absence of rational-thought, a fair and reasonable justice system, or a pluralist government, I fear that luck is what she needs most right now.
Scott.
Other Comments by Scott McMeekin
30. Comment #92549 by Theocrapcy on November 30, 2007 at 6:37 pm
These people are psychotic. Other Comments by Theocrapcy
31. Comment #92565 by robotaholic on November 30, 2007 at 7:20 pm
mindless murderous muslim maniacs make me morbid -I learned a rule of thumb from this:
Stay the hell out of Sudan!
Other Comments by robotaholic
32. Comment #92569 by burn0gas on November 30, 2007 at 7:27 pm
Need we be reminded that this is a clash between eras?Wafa Sultan sums is up nicely:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ
Other Comments by burn0gas
33. Comment #92587 by Satanburiedfossils on November 30, 2007 at 8:26 pm
A few random thoughts:It is rare to find a culture that has done such a splendid job of maintaining its Bronze Age values.
-----------------------------------------------------
Doesn't this sound like the premise of a South Park episode? The worst example of life imitating art.
-----------------------------------------------------
In seriousness, to call for someone to be executed for misnaming a teddy bear is sick, perverse, evil, shameful, disgusting, stupid, and insane. And that just scratches the surface.
Other Comments by Satanburiedfossils
34. Comment #92590 by Mango on November 30, 2007 at 8:52 pm
I wonder if Sudan had a tourist industry. Had. Other Comments by Mango
35. Comment #92591 by cowalker on November 30, 2007 at 8:53 pm
I wonder if Muslims realize that incidents like this result in the assignment of the name "Muhammed" to various humble household items and unpleasant bodily emissions in Western homes. In his books, Kinky Friedman takes a "Nixon" every morning, but I think Nixon has been eclipsed.Other Comments by cowalker
36. Comment #92592 by Big T on November 30, 2007 at 9:02 pm
To all the naive people on this site: I was accused of anti-Muslim bigotry almost as soon as I first posted on this site. Very well. So I'm a bigot. But the Koran (or Qur'an or whatever) is a totalitarian, mind-control document. In passage after passage it threatens anyone who even questions it's assertions with eternal punishment. The Bible does some of the same, but to a much lesser extent. It will be lovely if we avoid an all-out clash of civilizations, but that seems increasingly less likely. Okay, I'm a racist, anti-Muslim, evil bigot. But please try not to be too shocked when majority-Muslim societies do things like this. To repeat an earlier warning of mine, the only reason they are not doing it in the West is because they do not (yet) have the power to do so. Freedom is more fragile than you think it is.Other Comments by Big T
37. Comment #92628 by Nefrubyr on December 1, 2007 at 2:02 am
21. Comment #92480 by BonzaiYou know how this is going to be spun by some conspiracy junkies among Muslims in the West?
They will say that it is a well orchestrated event by U.K intelligence. They either paid her to name the bear Mo or they hired some proxy to file the complaint against her, knowing that it would create a situation like this so that they use it to smear Islam and Muslims. I heard this kind of insanity after the cartoon incident.
They'll only be repeating what the conspiracy junkies in Sudan have said:
But Sudan's top clerics have called for the full measure of the law to be used against Mrs Gibbons and labelled her actions part of a Western plot against Islam.
"What has happened was not haphazard or carried out of ignorance, but rather a calculated action and another ring in the circles of plotting against Islam," the Sudanese Assembly of the Ulemas said in a statement.
The semi-official clerics body is considered relatively moderate and is believed to have the ear of the Sudanese government.
(From the BBC)
I'm sure that pointing out how it's the muslims who are making themselves look bad by their actions would be completely lost on these people. They discredit themselves far more thoroughly than any western plot could manage.
In honour of their desire to live in the past (they're very keen on honour, y'know), I have decided in future to refer to members of this cult as "mahometans".
25. Comment #92507 by Kell
I agree with those posters above who suspect that this demonstration of self-righteous outrage was organised; that was my reaction when I read the article. Hitchens has also voiced this conclusion in past interviews.
Yes, it surely was organised. That in no way excuses the morons who chose to take part.
Is anyone organising a protest outside the Sudanese embassy in London?
Big T: Islam is not a race. Being anti-Muslim is not racist. Maybe you are a racist, but you haven't established that with your post ;)
Other Comments by Nefrubyr
38. Comment #92636 by Cartomancer on December 1, 2007 at 2:25 am
If Islam is a religion of peace then I'd hate to see what a warlike one looks like... Other Comments by Cartomancer
39. Comment #92638 by Bonzai on December 1, 2007 at 2:29 am
There may be more going on than meets the eyes. The Sudanese government may be playing some political game.The row has been framed as a religious confrontation of a depressingly familiar sort: from one side, it is yet further evidence of the barbarism inherent in a fundamentalist interpretation of Islam; from the other, it is further proof of a concerted campaign to denigrate Islam. Yet the Sudanese decision to punish this blameless woman over something so apparently trivial has little to do with rival gods: it is a political manoeuvre, a calculated gambit by a regime under stress that has every reason to want to play to the Islamic gallery.
Khartoum seems to have picked this fight over a cuddly toy deliberately: to distract attention from its pernicious role in the Darfur conflict and deteriorating relations with the south of the country, to demonstrate its Islamic credentials, to shore up its own power and to tweak the nose of the West.
President Omar al-Bashir has been itching for a confrontation with Britain since the UK threatened sanctions against Khartoum if Darfur peace talks failed. Mrs Gibbons is a teacher at Unity High School, a school run by Christians that follows a British-style curriculum. It is a prominent reminder of Sudan's colonial past, making her a most tempting target.
The row could have been defused by quiet diplomacy, but instead incendiary literature was circulated in Khartoum and mass demonstrations were planned. One pro-government newspaper called for Hassan al-Turabi, once the regime's hardline Islamic ideologue, to give evidence at Mrs Gibbons's trial to demonstrate how offensive her actions have been to Muslims.
This was not some spontaneous outpouring by outraged believers. The semi-official Assembly of Ulemas, consisting of clerics and scholars, had already made up its collective mind that "what has happened was not haphazard or carried out from ignorance". Such statements are the calculated response of a regime not just taking, but actively seeking, offence...
Read the rest at
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/ben_macintyre/article2970926.ece
Other Comments by Bonzai
40. Comment #92642 by Summer Seale on December 1, 2007 at 2:37 am
These poor, oppressed, people...Other Comments by Summer Seale
41. Comment #92643 by epeeist on December 1, 2007 at 2:53 am
Comment #92628 by Nefrubyr(From the BBC)
I have just had a glance at the HYS for this on the BBC web site, they have had over 16,000 posts on the topic. I was going to add a post, but they have over 10,000 sitting in the moderation queue.
The HYS posters are never, IMHO, the most rational of people but this certainly seems to have got them stirred up.
Other Comments by epeeist
42. Comment #92650 by Incredulous on December 1, 2007 at 3:21 am
Okay, I'm a racist, anti-Muslim, evil bigot.
I fully appreciate your feelings but as far as I can see the evils facing the 21st Century are embodied in racism and religion. They are both fuelled by delusions and along with this unfortunate incident in the Sudan, show us more than ever we need rational thinking, freedom from superstition, and secular government.
An interesting comment was made in the times today:
http://timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article2980287.ece
Other Comments by Incredulous
43. Comment #92651 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 1, 2007 at 3:24 am
I fully appreciate your feelings but as far as I can see the evils facing the 21st Century are embodied in racism and religion. They are both fuelled by delusions and along with this unfortunate incident in the Sudan, show us more than ever we need rational thinking, freedom from superstition, and secular government.Add nationalism to your list and you've get the full spectrum of lunatic ideology covered:-)
I found the article you mention thought provoking and disturbing. Interesting. Secular first, democracy after. I'm not sure I like the sound of that, mostly because I actually found the author made a strong case.
Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen
44. Comment #92655 by ianmac66 on December 1, 2007 at 3:44 am
it appears to me ,all those demonstrators are sharing the same brain cell.it's a shame that these type of Muslims tar them all with the same brush.Other Comments by ianmac66
45. Comment #92659 by Vaal on December 1, 2007 at 4:06 am
Well, well, I posted to the BBC and nearly fell off my chair when they posted it .. wonders will never cease.."What? You mean I can't call my penis, Mohammad?"
Other Comments by Vaal
46. Comment #92664 by Russell Blackford on December 1, 2007 at 5:12 am
Vaal, someone should immediately produce a re-written version of Lady Chatterley's Lover with the words "John Thomas" altered appropriately wherever they appear.Other Comments by Russell Blackford
47. Comment #92668 by USA_Limey on December 1, 2007 at 5:54 am
Comment #92651 by briancoughlanworldcitizen was:I found the article you mention thought provoking and disturbing. Interesting. Secular first, democracy after.
Yes, I found the article interesting, and concordant with some other things I have read that suggest that part of the problem in the 'the west', is too much democracy.
This was the most interesting part for me:
In China, at the moment, every member of the Standing Committee of the Politburo, the central bastion of power, is a trained engineer � every one. There is not a religious figure in sight
Meanwhile, you can't seem to have a hope at election to a senior political position in the US without paying lip service, (at a bare minimum), to religion. And when was the last time the USA, or Britain had a trained engineer or scientist as a head of state? I can answer that for you: it was Margaret Thatcher.
Other Comments by USA_Limey
48. Comment #92669 by black wolf on December 1, 2007 at 6:04 am
The German chancellor Mrs. Merkel is a physicist, and a Protestant pastor's daughter. She is very reasonable when it comes to promoting science and technology. On the other hand, her party colleague of the Christian Democrats and 'governor' of Hessen has fallen for the 'teach the controversy' ruse the IDists are trying to pull. Fortunately he didn't convince the school board and education ministry (so far). This has nothing to do with Sudan, but I draw the conclusion that we must look at influential individuals, much more than parties or religious communities as a whole to advance secularism. Other Comments by black wolf
49. Comment #92677 by nothing on December 1, 2007 at 7:30 am
Is the whole world just engaged in mass self deception?
Yes!
Why? You don't consider these cretins human, do you?
Of course they are human. Humans are primates with cognitive machinery so easily overtaken by the mind-viruses of religion. So I plead with to take the ethical high ground and not just demonize our fellow primates. What we need is a way to eliminate the mind-viruses without killing off the human beings. Unfortunately, I admit that with our present knowledge this may not be possible in a lot of cases. Tragic.
Other Comments by nothing
50. Comment #92682 by Incredulous on December 1, 2007 at 7:59 am
What we need is a way to eliminate the mind-viruses without killing off the human beings. Unfortunately, I admit that with our present knowledge this may not be possible in a lot of cases. Tragic.
But what do we do about those who want to kill off the human beings who have painstakingly built up sufficient cognitive immunity to the mind virus and merely want to dispense the educational antidote to those who want to take it - with care and affection?
Other Comments by Incredulous
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"If this book doesn't change the world -- we're all screwed."
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The God Delusion
by Richard Dawkins
Over 1.5 million copies sold
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1. Comment #92400 by sidfaiwu on November 30, 2007 at 12:38 pm
They want a tougher sentence? Tougher?!?! Are they insane? My faith in humanity just took a major blow.
[cry]
Other Comments by sidfaiwu