










Atheism's Wrong Turn2. Comment #93168 by Opti-mystic on December 2, 2007 at 11:06 am
3. Comment #93171 by Spinoza on December 2, 2007 at 11:10 am
4. Comment #93175 by Serdan on December 2, 2007 at 11:22 am
Yay! Let's ransack some churches! Who's with me?!5. Comment #93186 by drive1 on December 2, 2007 at 11:49 am
The last thing America needs is a war of attrition between two mutually exclusive, absolute systems of belief. Yet this is precisely what the new atheists appear to crave. The task for the rest of us--committed to neither dogmatic faith nor dogmatic doubt--is to make certain that combatants on both sides of the theological divide fail to get their destructive way. And thereby to ensure that liberalism prevails.
6. Comment #93214 by SonOfPearl on December 2, 2007 at 12:40 pm
...today's atheists feel perfectly justified in dispensing with such moral luxuries as tolerance and civility.
7. Comment #93216 by padster1976 on December 2, 2007 at 12:41 pm
8. Comment #93223 by Janus on December 2, 2007 at 12:51 pm
9. Comment #93225 by Crono454 on December 2, 2007 at 12:52 pm
I'm sorry that the author of this piece is so excited to find common ground with pure insanity. This is just another upset little god botherer who is upset because someone' broken the taboo of criticizing religion without the kid gloves on.10. Comment #93227 by Gibsnag on December 2, 2007 at 1:01 pm
Tbh I stopped reading after this:11. Comment #93234 by Eric Blair on December 2, 2007 at 1:16 pm
I think the responses here bear out Linker's point.12. Comment #93235 by Acleron on December 2, 2007 at 1:19 pm
Linker appears to equate illiberalism with modern atheism throughout this piece. From this it logically follows that the goal of a secular society is illiberal. As the premise is bullshit so is the conclusion. Perhaps Linker should now enrol in the Center for Critical Thinking, but then that may illiberally infringe on his beliefs.13. Comment #93237 by Janus on December 2, 2007 at 1:26 pm
14. Comment #93240 by OhioAtheist on December 2, 2007 at 1:33 pm
Yet the fact remains that the atheism of Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, and Hitchens is a brutally intolerant, proselytizing faith, out to rack up conversions.
15. Comment #93242 by Diacanu on December 2, 2007 at 1:40 pm
16. Comment #93244 by Mango on December 2, 2007 at 1:48 pm
there aren't nearly enough unbelievers to leave a significant mark on the nation's culture or politics as a whole.
17. Comment #93248 by notsobad on December 2, 2007 at 1:55 pm
18. Comment #93249 by Janus on December 2, 2007 at 1:57 pm
He writes that believers and non-believers alike are searching for truth, and in that effort our common ground lies.
19. Comment #93254 by Mango on December 2, 2007 at 2:12 pm
Janus: I doubt Sagan believed what he said.
20. Comment #93265 by gkatheist on December 2, 2007 at 2:40 pm
21. Comment #93274 by Inferno on December 2, 2007 at 2:58 pm
speaking, liberalism takes no position on theological questions.
22. Comment #93277 by Janus on December 2, 2007 at 3:00 pm
If you've read "The Demon Haunted World," or at all aware of Dr. Sagan's career, then you know he was keenly interested in opening up people's minds to the wonders of the universe. I have no doubt that he truly wanted atheists and theists to find common ground, even in a sense as vague as truth-seeking. I have spoken to many theists -- every other Tuesday I set up an atheist station at my university's Student Union and talk to them. They do seek truth, and some have an open mind to what I say, others are closed off, apparently content with their revealed "Truth." I can tell you that Dr. Sagan's sage advice does help me communicate -- when I speak to theists with respect and an obvious eagerness to *understand* them they reciprocate and even if they do not abandon their faith they at least become aware that not all atheists are elitist or fire-breathing.
23. Comment #93282 by Mango on December 2, 2007 at 3:13 pm
24. Comment #93283 by Atticus_of_Amber on December 2, 2007 at 3:19 pm
25. Comment #93291 by steve99 on December 2, 2007 at 3:35 pm
26. Comment #93299 by Theocrapcy on December 2, 2007 at 3:52 pm
27. Comment #93311 by Duff on December 2, 2007 at 4:23 pm
Poor religionists, suffering from "cosmic loneliness". I want to cry.28. Comment #93313 by notsobad on December 2, 2007 at 4:32 pm
Yet the fact remains that the atheism of Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, and Hitchens is a brutally intolerant, proselytizing faith
29. Comment #93325 by Santi Tafarella on December 2, 2007 at 5:38 pm
For me, this was the money quote from the author of the New Republic article: "To be liberal in the classical sense is to accept intellectual variety--and the social complexity that goes with it--as the ineradicable condition of a free society." I think it is important for us to keep this in mind. In reading Dawkins, I am with him on virtually every point, until he suggests that parents should not have substantial control over how they raise their children. I think that in this singular area, Dawkins crosses a line from liberalism to illiberalism, and the New Republic author is right to call him out on it. The chance contingencies of being born in a particular place and time (Melborne in 1924; California in 1968 etc.), and the accidents of experience (parents as Buddhists; father who died in Vietnam; exposure to lead at a young age etc.) will all color how one thinks about and responds to the world, and how one wants to raise their children to think about war, religion, and life in general. For the state to step in forcibly, and try to socially engineer the multitude of contingencies that an individual life entails, with the purpose of directing the stream of society to a particular and singular goal, is a step away from freedom that I cannot support. Anytime we start thinking of the state in terms of gardening or cleaning metaphors (as a collective device for weeding out or purifying something from society) we are heading for trouble. Although I'm an atheist, I don't think the world would be a better place if there were no Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, or Christians in the world, anymore than I think it would be a better world if we all just spoke English, and all other languages died out. It is the diversity of narratives in the world that makes life crackle, and gives it nuance. I just think that we are not acknowledging that all languages--whether one speaks "Feminism," "Buddhism," "Freudianism," "Calvinism," or "Dawkinism"--bring interesting ideas and insights to the collective table, and that to wish for the permanent elimination of one or another "language" is not a way for making a better society, but one that is actually intellectually impoverished. Contending languages expose one another's intellectual blind spots, and strengthens a society's collective base of knowledge. I don't look forward to a world free of Baptist churches anymore than I would look forward to a world free of books by Robert Ingersoll and Richard Dawkins. I don't look forward to a world free of neo-conservative Republicans anymore than I look forward to a world free of postmodern pacifist Democrats. My half-ass figurings out about the world don't need to become a universal law that supercedes everybody else's half-ass contingent figurings out. We should want more crazy religions and wild intellectual theories in the world, not fewer. Our longing should be in the direction of freedom and diversity, and an insistence on free, unfettered speech. You should be able to worship Mohammad and raise your kids as Muslims, and you should be able to draw pictures of Mohammad, and mock religion, and teach your kids that religion is bullshit (if you want to). And who would say that the Greek pantheon of gods isn't a cool cultural and literary development in world history, and that the pagan gods don't give us an interesting archetypal language, with insights into the human condition? Likewise, I think that Scientology, Mormonism, Islam, and Christianity gave the world weird languages, but I also think that they can be reflected upon and worked with. I also think that the children born to parents who speak one of these peculiar languages have been given a foil in which to intellectually wrestle with for the rest of their lives. If many people never transcend the religion of their parents, it may be because the language worked for them. It may also be because they were weak or stupid. But whatever the reason, I can't help but paraphrase Blake: "Those whose desires or thoughts are restrained are weak enough to let their desires and thoughts be restrained." People can fight their upbringing if they want to. They aren't entirely helpless, and they don't need the state to jump in and assist them at every turn. Ayann Hersi Ali fought her way clear of her upbringing. And Voltaire fought his way clear. And when I was a teenager I fought my way clear of my fundamentalist Christian beliefs, fearing hell and the loss of family and friends every step of the way. Not everybody has the energy or inclination to fight the bullshit in their lives. A lot of people make peace with their situations, and stay where they are. Let's not pretend that the state can step in and make this part of life easier for everybody. All of life is a struggle against a lot of bullshit, conceptual and otherwise. It's not just a kid born to Amish parents who has to wrestle her way through a maze of illusions about the "real world," it's you and me too, everyday, because we are human and don't see the world whole, but in part, and from a peculiar contingent moment in time and space. Let's not pretend that the state can save us, or kids who are homeschooled, from this part of life, by passing a law that makes everybody sit in on a compulsory comparative religion class, or by making everybody learn more evolution in high school biology classes. Let's try to keep the state more Lockean than Hobbesian. Let's let freedom be first, not state coercion.30. Comment #93333 by aznxscorpion517 on December 2, 2007 at 6:27 pm
31. Comment #93348 by jharps on December 2, 2007 at 7:39 pm
Santi:32. Comment #93350 by Cartomancer on December 2, 2007 at 7:45 pm
33. Comment #93353 by mmurray on December 2, 2007 at 8:05 pm
Although I'm an atheist, I don't think the world would be a better place if there were no Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, or Christians in the world, anymore than I think it would be a better world if we all just spoke English, and all other languages died out.
People can fight their upbringing if they want to. They aren't entirely helpless, and they don't need the state to jump in and assist them at every turn. Ayann Hersi Ali fought her way clear of her upbringing. And Voltaire fought his way clear. And when I was a teenager I fought my way clear of my fundamentalist Christian beliefs, fearing hell and the loss of family and friends every step of the way.
34. Comment #93354 by Atticus_of_Amber on December 2, 2007 at 8:14 pm
35. Comment #93355 by gr8hands on December 2, 2007 at 8:21 pm
Linker's article shows the dangers of getting your information from widipedia.But, as we know from elementary logic, it is impossible to prove a negative:It is quite easy for me to prove there are no 16 ton pink elephants in my nostrils. It is quite easy to prove that there are no two even integers that added together will produce an odd integer. The list goes on. Perhaps he forgot, or didn't actually take a course in logic, or took it from a theist who didn't know what he was doing, or wasn't paying attention in logic class.
36. Comment #93358 by JanChan on December 2, 2007 at 9:04 pm
The author seems to have no idea of the writings of Thomas Jefferson yet feels convinced that he can fully comment on the founding fathers. This kind of intellectual laziness sickens me. Jefferson was among the most vocal critics of religion of all time.37. Comment #93373 by Nick Good on December 3, 2007 at 12:03 am
38. Comment #93376 by AllanW on December 3, 2007 at 1:16 am
39. Comment #93386 by GordonHide on December 3, 2007 at 3:15 am
Lister: "Why Dawkins refuses to take this idea to its logical conclusion--to say that raising a child in a religious tradition, like other forms of child abuse, should be considered a crime punishable by the state--is a mystery"40. Comment #93390 by Vaal on December 3, 2007 at 3:49 am
41. Comment #93400 by Barbara on December 3, 2007 at 4:52 am
Atheism has been around for a very long time-- presumably as long as belief that gods exist.
42. Comment #93401 by Liveliest Crib on December 3, 2007 at 4:54 am
The task for the rest of us--committed to neither dogmatic faith nor dogmatic doubt--is to make certain that combatants on both sides of the theological divide fail to get their destructive way.Dogmatic doubt? Gee, Goldilocks, which bowl of porridge is just right? Dogmatic neutrality? Dogmatic dissonance, perhaps? Or could it be a world without dogma at all? A government that enforces no dogma? Oh, if only you actually understood the writings you're critiquing.
. . . it is inexcusable that each book leaves readers guessing [what political] objective its author favors.Yeah, how dare they explain their views of religion and society without telling you their political views? It was like that book I read about nutrition by some holier-than-thou doctor. He told me my beloved bacon cheeseburgers were bad for my heart, but he neglected to tell me whether he wanted them made illegal, or me jailed for eating them. How dare he leave that out?
43. Comment #93408 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 3, 2007 at 5:14 am
44. Comment #93410 by IanG on December 3, 2007 at 5:25 am
OK. So we know that we believe in a natural world with natural explanations. We don't believe in supernatural beings, causes or effects. We don't claim to know things that we don't know and we recognise that models of the world that include blind, unquestioning belief and obedience are likely to be more dangerous than those encourage free enquiry and evidence.45. Comment #93412 by photopedia on December 3, 2007 at 5:34 am
Comment #93408 by briancoughlanworldcitizen.46. Comment #93413 by steve99 on December 3, 2007 at 5:34 am
OK. So we know that we believe in a natural world with natural explanations. We don't believe in supernatural beings, causes or effects.
47. Comment #93415 by IanG on December 3, 2007 at 5:44 am
My view is that stuff seems to happen and the principles of science seem to be the best way to investigate. If someone came up with evidence of telepathy or fairies, I would want it investigated. Scientifically.
48. Comment #93417 by steve99 on December 3, 2007 at 5:51 am
Thank you, steve99, I do agree that the way you put it is a better expression of the underlying issue than were my words. Ditto evidence for the effectiveness of intercessionary prayer.
49. Comment #93422 by IanG on December 3, 2007 at 6:07 am
No offence taken, steve 99, I didn't take it as criticism. Feedback and clarification are what make things tick.50. Comment #93423 by black wolf on December 3, 2007 at 6:12 am
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1. Comment #93167 by dloubet on December 2, 2007 at 11:06 am
Oh, for--Sigh.
Maybe we need to start up our own minuteman vigilante squad to catch and deport illegal strawmen.
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