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Fear of censure deflects The Golden Compas
by The Herald
Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.
Reposted from:
http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/featuresopinon/display.var.1877896.0.0.php
Watch the first 5 minutes of 'The Golden Compass here'
Demented and powerless, the aged being could only weep and mumble in fear and pain and misery and he shrank away from what seemed like another threat . . . He was as light as paper and would have followed them anywhere, having no will of his own."
If you haven't read Philip Pullman's trilogy, His Dark Materials, you might not instantly recognise his description of The Authority - better known to most of us as God.
Pullman's Authority is "of terrifying decrepitude, of a face sunken with wrinkles, of trembling hands and a mumbling mouth and rheumy eyes" who "cackled and muttered to himself, plucking incessantly at his beard".
Click here to continue:
http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/featuresopinon/display.var.1877896.0.0.php
Reposted from:
http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/featuresopinon/display.var.1877896.0.0.php
Watch the first 5 minutes of 'The Golden Compass here'
Demented and powerless, the aged being could only weep and mumble in fear and pain and misery and he shrank away from what seemed like another threat . . . He was as light as paper and would have followed them anywhere, having no will of his own."
If you haven't read Philip Pullman's trilogy, His Dark Materials, you might not instantly recognise his description of The Authority - better known to most of us as God.
Pullman's Authority is "of terrifying decrepitude, of a face sunken with wrinkles, of trembling hands and a mumbling mouth and rheumy eyes" who "cackled and muttered to himself, plucking incessantly at his beard".
Click here to continue:
http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/featuresopinon/display.var.1877896.0.0.php
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Posted: Monday, December 3, 2007 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 98 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #93618 by humperdinck on December 3, 2007 at 6:30 pm
That description is one of my favorite reveals in the His Dark Materials trilogy. Brilliant. Other Comments by humperdinck
3. Comment #93620 by Frankus1122 on December 3, 2007 at 6:32 pm
Poor old God. I kind of feel sorry for the old bastard. He reminds me of Aqualung. Other Comments by Frankus1122
4. Comment #93623 by Jason P on December 3, 2007 at 6:37 pm
I have seen the film, which by the way is excellent. I can assure you that although there is somewhat less explicit reference to religion than in the book, it is by no means gone. Most importantly, the section of the book that this first film corresponds to has very little theological discussion. The horizons only open up after the point at which the movie ends. Therefore, there is almost nothing that is lost irreversably - nothing which makes it impossible to explain the true nature of the conflict in the later movies. And that is exactly what director Chris Weitz wants to do. In a very recent interview, he stated:"And as for those who are concerned that I have not used the word "Church" but only the word "Magisterium" for the bad guys, and that sort of thing, I would advise them to do a little research into the meaning of the word "Magisterium" for starters. Some people will only be satisfied if the film I've made is an outright attack on religion, which to me shows that they have misapprehended the meaning of Pullman's books as much as the "other side."
It's true, though, that "The Subtle Knife" and "The Amber Spyglass" tread in territory that is much more controversial than the first book. This is also addressed by a bunch of questions that I will lasso under the heading "what next?" Well, though I saw it as my duty to build the franchise of "His Dark Materials" on as solid a grounding as I could, it would all be in vain if the second and third films did not have the intellectual depth and the iconoclasm of the second and third books. The whole point, to me, of ensuring that "The Golden Compass" is a financial success is so that we have a solid foundation on which to deliver a faithful, more literal adaptation of the second and third books. This is important: whereas "The Golden Compass" had to be introduced to the public carefully, the religious themes in the second and third books can't be minimized without destroying the spirit of these books. There is simply no way to adapt them without dealing with Lyra's destined role, her secret name, and the war in the heavens. I will not be involved with any "watering down" of books two and three, since what I have been working towards the whole time in the first film is to be able to deliver on the second and third films. If I sense that this is not possible, there's no point my continuing to work on them."
Bottom line: The Golden Compass is being made as marketable as possible so that it will provide a solid financial foundation for the rest of the trilogy, and so that it will establish a loyal fanbase who will be then willing to follow Pullman and Weitz into much darker and more complex philosophical territory. Furthermore, as the article writes, the more people see the movie, or even just hear about it, the more will be intrigued enough to read the books. And that can only be a good thing.
For fans of the books who are concerned, here are some of the religious aspects which have been maintained in The Golden Compass film:
The evil organization is still called the Magisterium, which refers to the teaching body of the Catholic Church. Its members wear robes, medallions, and stiff vertical white collars. A district office of the Magisterium is covered in medieval religious icons. Mrs. Coulter has angels on her ceiling. Most importantly, the Magisterium condemns scientific research as "heresy" (a purely religious term) because it contradicts received teaching. Mrs. Coulter explains that Dust came into the world when people disobeyed The Authority. That's right, The Authority. They don't explain who that is yet, but that doesn't mean they won't.
Other Comments by Jason P
5. Comment #93626 by Shuggy on December 3, 2007 at 6:45 pm
Mrs Coulter, eh? That really is life imitating art. Other Comments by Shuggy
6. Comment #93630 by Chris Bell on December 3, 2007 at 7:02 pm
Right on Jason P.It's impossible to do part 2 & 3 without going into the theology.
Other Comments by Chris Bell
7. Comment #93670 by sent2null on December 3, 2007 at 9:59 pm
Shuggy wrote:Mrs Coulter, eh? That really is life imitating art.
I thought the same thing, now I wonder if that is the name of the actual character in the books or did the director/writer cleverly change it so that it had the similarity to the always charming , anorexic , christian right wing demon monster with an adam's apple we all know and despise.
Other Comments by sent2null
8. Comment #93701 by Saerain on December 4, 2007 at 12:22 am
I do wish people would stop using 'anorexic' as a physical descriptor.Anyway, yes, the literary character's name is Marisa Coulter.
Other Comments by Saerain
9. Comment #93706 by tybowen on December 4, 2007 at 1:02 am
All the publicity the movie generate for the book got me to go get a copy and start reading it myself. So far its great stuff. Well I'm a very far cry from a christian child (college atheist) it is very possible that children will want to read the books as a result of the movies. Other Comments by tybowen
10. Comment #93755 by Bertybob on December 4, 2007 at 6:05 am
Lovely to see Oxford in a film. How I miss Inspector Morse!! Other Comments by Bertybob
11. Comment #93762 by Alkal on December 4, 2007 at 6:56 am
Maybe the negative publicity will just make people watch the film, then read the books...like with the da Vinci, the book was good, but the film....Other Comments by Alkal
12. Comment #93771 by Northern Bright on December 4, 2007 at 7:29 am
I have only read Northern Lights, the first of the His Dark Materials trilogy, and I absolutely loathed it. I am normally very circumspect with books, but I'm afraid Northern Lights found itself being hurled across the room with great force several times during my reading of it. If it hadn't been the chosen book for a book group I used to be part of, it would have been one of the very VERY few books in my life that I have started reading but never finished.
There are very few books I absolutely detest - but this was one of them. I found it horrendously self-conscious, totally incredible (even in a fantasy context), and the girl heroine utterly vile.
Maybe it's just me and works of complete fantasy. Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings did absolutely nothing for me either.
I know I'll be in the minority on this - so can anyone tell me what they see in it?
Other Comments by Northern Bright
13. Comment #93772 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 7:37 am
12. Comment #93771 by Northern Bright on December 4, 2007 at 7:29 amavatarI have only read Northern Lights, the first of the His Dark Materials trilogy, and I absolutely loathed it.
APOSTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE!!! How dare you challenge the great ones of atheism!!!
With that out of my system, let me just say .. wa, pa ... ? ... hngggg?.
Metaphysics has always fascinated human beings, and Pulman paints on the grandest canvas, and Lyra vile .... ga .... WHAT?
Alternate universes, heaven, hell, aliens, fistcuffs with God, impossible choices, death, resurrection, sacrifice. All the classic themes, did he leave anything out? Whats not to like? I'm utterly amazed that anyone would think Lyra vile .. I mean vile?? Wouldn't annoying suffice? Not that I agree even with that, but I could imagine it.
You must be a very bad person indeed. This is the only explanation.
Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen
14. Comment #93773 by Northern Bright on December 4, 2007 at 7:46 am
13. Comment #93772 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 7:37 am LOL!! That's pretty mild, compared with the abuse I was expecting! :-)))
Metaphysics has always fascinated human beingsNo, not me. Maybe I'm not a human being? That would explain a lot! ;-)
You must be a very bad person indeed. This is the only explanation.Well, you're not the first to put forward this suggestion ...
:-)
Other Comments by Northern Bright
15. Comment #93774 by AllanW on December 4, 2007 at 7:46 am
Re comment #93771No, I can only tell you why I too think it's an awful book.
Stilted dialogue, unengaging narrative. Simplistic and unbelievable setting. The whole exercise looks to me like Terry Pratchett's Deaths view of what a fantasy novel should try to be; it lacks any humour, human warmth and sensitivity whatsoever. The approach is risible, the naming juvenile (gyptians? please). It feels to me like an esoteric essay attempting to crow-bar in as many publishing-microcosm, media-village pseudo-intellectual 'givens' as possible. I can only think it has been as successful as it has been because it succeeds in this.
Intellectually barren, imaginatively sterile, literary bullshit. I read them all just so I could not be accused of following my reactions after three chapters to throw it in the compost-maker. Which, btw I did do after only two chapters of 'Labyrinth'; the writing was so awful.
Other Comments by AllanW
16. Comment #93775 by Northern Bright on December 4, 2007 at 7:50 am
15. Comment #93774 by AllanW on December 4, 2007 at 7:46 am Thank you, Allan W. You are clearly a man of taste and discernment :-)
To my mind you have summed up the book perfectly. I gave my copy to a charity bookshop, but I think putting it in a composter would have been kinder, actually. It would have removed the possibility of it being inflicted on some other poor unsuspecting innocent.
Now then, must get back to my current favourite book: How to anger and alienate people in one simple lesson.
:-)
Other Comments by Northern Bright
17. Comment #93776 by steve99 on December 4, 2007 at 7:51 am
Northern Bright: Just look what you have started! I am going to have to read it now, just to know which side I am on.... Other Comments by steve99
18. Comment #93777 by AllanW on December 4, 2007 at 7:53 am
Thank you, Northern Bright. Good luck with the book while I climb into my radiation-proof suit for Brians reply :) Other Comments by AllanW
19. Comment #93778 by irate_atheist on December 4, 2007 at 7:53 am
15. Comment #93774 by AllanW -Don't hold back Allan, tell us what you really think.
Other Comments by irate_atheist
20. Comment #93779 by Northern Bright on December 4, 2007 at 7:54 am
Northern Bright: Just look what you have started! I am going to have to read it now, just to know which side I am on....
Ah well. Just don't say you weren't warned, steve99. Any chance you can borrow a copy from someone? It seems such a shame to pay real money for one.
Other Comments by Northern Bright
21. Comment #93781 by AllanW on December 4, 2007 at 7:56 am
Irate_atheist; I was holding back. No swear words used :) Other Comments by AllanW
22. Comment #93782 by Northern Bright on December 4, 2007 at 7:57 am
Irate_atheist; I was holding back. No swear words used :)
If you'd been in my house whilst I was reading it, you'd have heard plenty.
Other Comments by Northern Bright
23. Comment #93785 by steve99 on December 4, 2007 at 8:05 am
Ah well. Just don't say you weren't warned, steve99. Any chance you can borrow a copy from someone? It seems such a shame to pay real money for one.
My partner has all three books in the trilogy. He really liked them :)
Other Comments by steve99
24. Comment #93786 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 8:07 am
I'll not spend any more time in the presence of such atheists clearly traitors to the cause!!! Sniff.;-)
seriously though I'm genuinely shocked at such visceral dislike, myself and my daughter were entranced by the books, and we can't wait for the film. It opens on Friday and we are THERE!
Mind you, we were similarly engaged in the Harry Potter series, but we also love Terry Pratchett. So there!
Lets hear some love though!!! Did anyone actually like the series? If passions ride high enough, maybe we can split the atheist community (again), this time on the basis of something genuinely trivial! Wouldn't that be fun?
Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen
25. Comment #93787 by Northern Bright on December 4, 2007 at 8:08 am
My partner has all three books in the trilogy. He really liked them :)
Oh dear. If it were me, I'd be thinking of changing my partner, but you may not want to do that ... Not before reading the books, anyway ;-)
Other Comments by Northern Bright
26. Comment #93788 by thelogogryph on December 4, 2007 at 8:10 am
Northern Bright & AllanW:If you have no interest in fantasy or don't want to read a book aimed at children, the series probably wasn't going to do much for you. But I'm a little confused how you'd pick up the books and not realise what you were getting into.
Other Comments by thelogogryph
27. Comment #93789 by cowalker on December 4, 2007 at 8:11 am
I left this comment on the Herald site.Ms. Home is correct. Pullman's books could start serious conversations between parents and children about religion, truth, faith, authority and duty, but free-ranging conversation about religion and authority among Catholics is the very last thing the Catholic League of America wants. The Catholic League considers the question settled: the Catholic Church owns the truth and the final authority is the Pope. Thinking and discussion can only endanger the status quo.
They haven't noticed that by demanding that all serious religious material be banned from popular entertainment to avoid offending religious sensibilities, believers have contributed to the secularization of our culture. In movies and TV shows the world is full of beautiful, engaging characters who do heroic things, make moral choices, make life-changing decisions and cope with loss without any reference to religion. The supernatural rarely appears except in non-religious form in fantasy and horror entertainment, and children will be told (hopefully) that witches, ghosts, demons etc. are only make-believe. What are children to make of that except that religion isn't necessary?
That's ok with this atheist, but it's certainly ironic that the hypersensitive religious folks are a strong force for secularization.
Other Comments by cowalker
28. Comment #93790 by Northern Bright on December 4, 2007 at 8:15 am
If passions ride high enough, maybe we can split the atheist community (again), this time on the basis of something genuinely trivial! Wouldn't that be fun?
Yea! Bring it on! Schism in the atheist community! We could divide into the Real Atheists and the True Atheists (Continuing). Or the Free Atheists and the Reformed Free Atheists. Though, of course, once we'd done that we would have lost every last shred of credibility when declaring that atheism is not a religion!
Other Comments by Northern Bright
29. Comment #93791 by steve99 on December 4, 2007 at 8:16 am
I think we should have a really viscious argument about this, full of ad hominems and straw men, and heavy flaming... what do you say, shall we have a go?Let me make a contribution:
Brian... how CAN you like the Harry Potter books - the writing and characterisation was terrible!!! Shame on you.
(Personally I am a Pratchett fan, but my partner can't stand his books)
Other Comments by steve99
30. Comment #93792 by AllanW on December 4, 2007 at 8:16 am
LOL Brian :) I'd like to think my dislike of the books was objective but I can't be sure. I quite like the genre of fantasy as well as science-fiction so it's not that. Maybe it was that I felt so let down by them; they sold so many books, won literary awards, were pushed very hard by the papers etc that when I got to them I could not believe how paltry the fare was.
However if they now cause any person to begin to question religious dogma then I'll be as happy as anyone here.
Other Comments by AllanW
31. Comment #93793 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 8:20 am
29. Comment #93791 by steve99 on December 4, 2007 at 8:16 amBrian... how CAN you like the Harry Potter books - the writing and characterisation was terrible!!! Shame on you.
Oh REALLY? Well I'm not sure that I shall put up with lectures from someone with your ... "lifestyle". At least Harry Potter liked GIRLS. Hah! Take that.
erm, too much?
Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen
32. Comment #93794 by Philip1978 on December 4, 2007 at 8:21 am
Brian you are right, this cannot go unnoticed, Northern Bright, prepare to be tickled for your heathen behaviour!I think I understand- you could not get my dad to read this stuff (well, not without a lengthy discussion!) yet my mum, brother or me will devour it happily and let it all go in. With my Dad it ends and finishes with goblins etc - he just isnt that interested and never will be - though to his credit he gave Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter a go and sort of enjoyed them. He likes crime or spy novels because I think its more realistic settings for him - something he can get his head around
AllanW I think dad would agree with you, something like "gyptians" is a word that would get him annoyed too and I think I understand where you are coming from. Well done for reading them at least!
The reason why these things appeal to me is that I guess I am susceptible to much weirdness - I think Douglas Adams is to blame here and Tolkien as well for good measure. I like being introduced to weird stuff like Pullman, its got that addictive quality for me, I guess its like religion, everyone has their own version of it and bits of it can be argued over or agreed with. Thankfully this only results in the apostates getting tickled for their naughty doings! :)
Tally ho
Philip
Other Comments by Philip1978
33. Comment #93795 by Northern Bright on December 4, 2007 at 8:21 am
Northern Bright & AllanW:
If you have no interest in fantasy or don't want to read a book aimed at children, the series probably wasn't going to do much for you. But I'm a little confused how you'd pick up the books and not realise what you were getting into.
In my case it wasn't really from choice, thelogogryph. It had been chosen by my book group and there's not much point being in a book group if you're going to refuse to read books you wouldn't normally choose to read.
I have no problem with reading books aimed at children - but in that case give me Arthur Ransome any day!
Other Comments by Northern Bright
34. Comment #93797 by thelogogryph on December 4, 2007 at 8:23 am
AllanW:I'm a little confused. If you like fantasy/scifi, what contemporary writers are you reading that can actually write better than Pullman? (Again, keeping in mind these were children's book.) I always want to enjoy the genre, but the pedestrian writing makes it hard to love, and there are very few authors whose work I've enjoyed.
Other Comments by thelogogryph
35. Comment #93798 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 8:23 am
Though, of course, once we'd done that we would have lost every last shred of credibility when declaring that atheism is not a religion! Oh yeah .... good point. Nothwithstanding your inexcusable attitudes vis a vis Lyra, you're clearly not entirely insane. Hmm.
Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen
36. Comment #93800 by GoatBoy36 on December 4, 2007 at 8:25 am
Northern Bright & AllanW,I agree, I did NOT enjoy the book at all. I bought it on CD, and tried to listen to it while commuting, but ended up throwing the discs out the window.
I'm a member of a book club, and a couple of people there have raved about Pulman's work but I have to say, it just leaves me cold.
gb.
Other Comments by GoatBoy36
37. Comment #93801 by steve99 on December 4, 2007 at 8:25 am
Oh REALLY? Well I'm not sure that I shall put up with lectures from someone with your ... "lifestyle". At least Harry Potter liked GIRLS. Hah! Take that.
Hahahah.... that had me chuckling :)
Excellent contribution!
Other Comments by steve99
38. Comment #93803 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 8:28 am
30. Comment #93792 by AllanW on December 4, 2007 at 8:16 amLOL Brian :)
I'd like to think my dislike of the books was objective but I can't be sure.
This is what it comes down to really. Objectivity. It is interesting though to be able to view such diverse opinions dispassionatley, because the issue at hand really doesn't matter terribly.
Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen
39. Comment #93804 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 8:30 am
37. Comment #93801 by steve99 on December 4, 2007 at 8:25 amPhew:-) I was sweating there for a bit ... pushing the envelope I thought ... thats probably just the repressed Christian talking though:-)
Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen
40. Comment #93805 by AllanW on December 4, 2007 at 8:32 am
Re comment #93797No need to be confused :) Read most things by C.J.Cherryh (both the fantasy and Sci-Fi are very well written. And she's a lovely woman by the looks of her blog). Pratchett, of course. Neil Gaiman as well. If you slacken the contemporary restriction then many things by Aldiss, Heinlein, Harlan Ellison, Dick are IMO better written than anything by Pullman. Most of these, as well as Tolkien, Lewis et al I read in my youth even though they may not be aimed at children.
Regards
AllanW
Other Comments by AllanW
41. Comment #93807 by Northern Bright on December 4, 2007 at 8:36 am
Nothwithstanding your inexcusable attitudes vis a vis Lyra, you're clearly not entirely insane. Hmm.
Aaaah - you smooth talker, you. That's the nicest thing anyone's said to me in ages ;-)
Other Comments by Northern Bright
42. Comment #93808 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 8:40 am
36. Comment #93800 by GoatBoy36 on December 4, 2007 at 8:25 amThis is very interesting. Here is a little questionnaire.
On a scale of 1 to 5 rate your agreement with the following statements. Where 1 is totally agree, and 5 totally disagree.
I loved "his dark materials".
I have almost always considered myself an atheist.
I used to be an enthusiastic fundamentalist theist.
I'm a 1, 5 and a 2. I have a theory about this, lets see if we can get some data together.
Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen
43. Comment #93809 by Vaal on December 4, 2007 at 8:40 am
Anyone know where Veronique is? Other Comments by Vaal
44. Comment #93810 by GoatBoy36 on December 4, 2007 at 8:42 am
I was actually in Waterstones in Aberdeen earlier today & picked up "The Golden Compass" (as it's now being called apparently) and wondered ... will I give it another go? ... but decided no, I just couldn't face it and ended up buying "A Walk In The Dark" by Gianrico Carofiglio and "Ask The Parrot" by Richard Stark. More my cup of tea. Which tells you something I suppose. No wonder I can't take the bible seriously.http://www.bitterlemonpress.com/author_details.asp?ath=5
http://www.hachettebookgroupusa.com/authors/56/749/index.html
Other Comments by GoatBoy36
45. Comment #93811 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 8:43 am
40. Comment #93805 by AllanW on December 4, 2007 at 8:32 amWhat about Asimov, Clarke and Farmer? I never liked Cherryh, and I tolerated Aldiss and Dick. Heinlein however, I was fond of. Still speechless:-)
Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen
46. Comment #93812 by AllanW on December 4, 2007 at 8:47 am
re #93808Me; 5,3,5.
Other Comments by AllanW
47. Comment #93813 by GoatBoy36 on December 4, 2007 at 8:53 am
http://p208.ezboard.com/favtfrm0.showMessage?topicID=5004.topic&index=6A "what books have you read lately?" thread - lots of fantasy stuff there, Neil Gaiman and so forth. (Not for me though.)
I did read a couple of the "Foundation" novels when I was at college years ago, like in the early 90s. And I've read a couple of Philip K. Dick stories, & some Larry Niven here and there (with his writing partner whose name I forget right now). Overall though the whole genre's just not for me.
gb.
Other Comments by GoatBoy36
48. Comment #93814 by AllanW on December 4, 2007 at 8:54 am
Re; #93811Brian, I was trying to keep it to sci-fi/fantasy writers (not a lot of fantasy in my library of Asimov or Clarke stuff :)) But I have enjoyed both of those. Farmer not so much.
Cherryh; I'm surprised myself here :). I think her writing is always good. Is it the ideas or the execution you didn't get on with? I still rate the 'Cyteen' trilogy (or one book in the UK edition) as comparable to 'LOTR' for its ideas, breadth, writing and erudition. Many of the themes she includes in that book pointed me to scientific writing (including RD) that I continue to enjoy now.
Other Comments by AllanW
49. Comment #93816 by thelogogryph on December 4, 2007 at 8:59 am
Hm. I'm always surprised by the love people give to Neil Gaiman. As for Tolkien, there was only so much I could read about how much hobbits like food or what fun Tom Bombadil was before I wanted to scream. China Mieville, John Crowley, Jeff VanderMeer and M John Harrison are about as far as I can go today in the speculative genre.
This might be the geekiest discussion I've had in months. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that.
Other Comments by thelogogryph
50. Comment #93818 by Northern Bright on December 4, 2007 at 9:02 am
On a scale of 1 to 5 rate your agreement with the following statements. Where 1 is totally agree, and 5 totally disagree.
I loved "his dark materials".
I have almost always considered myself an atheist.
I used to be an enthusiastic fundamentalist theist.
5
4
3
Other Comments by Northern Bright
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1. Comment #93617 by Cartomancer on December 3, 2007 at 6:28 pm
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