Tuesday, December 11, 2007 | Reason : In the News | print version

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Girl, 16, dies after hijab dispute with father

by National Post (Toronto)

Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.

Reposted from:
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2007/12/11/girl-16-dies-after-hijab-dispute-with-father.aspx

aqsa

Amy Smithers and Katie Rook update the death of Aqsa Parvez:

The 16-year-old Mississauga girl who was allegedly strangled by her father in a dispute over her refusal to wear the hijab has died.

Aqsa Parvez, a Grade 11 student at Applewood Heights, succumbed to her injuries late last night, Peel Regional Police said today.

The girl's 57-year-old father, Muhammad Parvez, has been charged with muder. Aqsa's 26-year-old brother, Waqas Parvez, has been charged with obstructing police.

Friends believe Aqsa (seen above in a personal photo) was the victim of a dispute over the teenager's desire to be more western. "She wanted to live her life the way she wanted to, not the way her parents wanted her to," classmate Krista Garbhet told the Post this morning. "She just wanted to be herself, honestly she just wanted to show her beauty, and not be pushed around by her parents telling her what she has to be like, what she has to do. Nobody would want to do that."

An announcement broadcast at the school, near Bloor Street and Cawthra Road this morning, confirmed Aqsa's death.

School officials described her as an energetic, well-liked student.

"Peel Police are investigating Aqsa's death. It's natural to want answers about why this tragedy occurred, but we really don't have any of those answers yet. So it's important to avoid speculation or rumours. If you do have first-hand information that you think is relevant to this case, you can speak with one of the teachers or counsellors, or with office staff," one school official told students.

A memorial with a photograph of Aqsa and book of dedication was set up in the school's main foyer.

Grief counsellors are available to support shocked classmates. A flag outside the school has been lowered in memory of the girl.

The National Post editorial board discusses this case in their podcast here.

Posted: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 | Permalink

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1. Comment #97235 by robotaholic on December 11, 2007 at 7:37 pm

wow, she was pretty, what a shame...I saw a Forensic Files episode where these muslim parents killed their daughter because she was dating a black man and I guess wouldn't cover herself up with a burka- it was called an 'honor killing' - you KNOW that any religion that can cause a parent to kill their child must be a perversion- these people are COMPLETELY brainwashed

Other Comments by robotaholic

2. Comment #97237 by Rtambree on December 11, 2007 at 7:43 pm

Disgraceful. Another example of an 'Honour Killing'?

Islam is not exactly winning the PR war, is it?

Other Comments by Rtambree

3. Comment #97242 by Double Bass Atheist on December 11, 2007 at 7:50 pm

Sad� so sad. Will the world ever come to its senses?

For some strange reason, I was reminded of that "Open Letter to Richard Dawkins" in which the deluded Father Morris quoted enormous numbers of people killed in the "name of atheism" as compared to a relatively small number who died due to religion. (I'm still amazed that anyone can say that and still be taken seriously).
Somehow, I don't think Morris et al even take incidents like this into consideration.

Usually this site makes me laugh (a lot!) but stories like this one are hard to take. It is a constant reminder of the seriousness of our role in society. We MUST spread rationality!

Other Comments by Double Bass Atheist

4. Comment #97250 by GSP on December 11, 2007 at 8:09 pm

What must've been going through that poor girl's head when she realized her own father was killing her?

I hope he at least had the stones to face her and look her in the eye as the life slowly slipped out of her...

Other Comments by GSP

5. Comment #97258 by Pakbabydoll on December 11, 2007 at 8:20 pm

Thats crazy! and against the RELIGION! These people drive me crazy, and I am not being insensitive to their religion because I am Muslim ( well not a religious Muslim, but I go to mosque Fridays).Anyway my parents wanted me to wear hijab since my mom wears one and I told them I did not want to. I told them that if they forced me to, I would take it off in school anyway so whats the point. That girl's dad is def going to hell (if there is one). I guess he is in his hell since he knows he killed his own daughter.

Other Comments by Pakbabydoll

6. Comment #97261 by The Flying Trilobite on December 11, 2007 at 8:25 pm

Whether or not she was pretty is irrelevant. Whether or not her father looked her in the eye is irrelevant.

This is an ugly, ugly crime. Killing his daughter because of clothes. All parents sometimes fear their kids grow up too fast and fear they are wearing inappropriate clothing.

I'm sure some would say this is a cultural issue. Resorting to anger, abuse, and dogma make this uglier and harder to understand, rather than easier.

If a religion calls for raising a hand against the child, I'd stand with the child, not the religion.

Other Comments by The Flying Trilobite

7. Comment #97267 by Cerberus on December 11, 2007 at 8:32 pm

This reminds me of what happened at my school 13 years ago when one of the student was killed along with 4 of her sisters by their own father for a question of "honour".

Other Comments by Cerberus

8. Comment #97273 by The Flying Trilobite on December 11, 2007 at 8:48 pm

In a much smaller connection, this is why movies and books like The Golden Compass with strong, free-thinking heroines are so important. It's empowering, whatever you think of Pullman's story.

If this father did this to preserve honour or punish a disobediant child, I hope the example does not cow into submission more girls in that community.

I can't believe this happened in a community I visit once a week. I have family there. That poor girl. It would be nice to hope that religion doesn't mitigate the circumstances into a lower sentence when this mess is in court.

Other Comments by The Flying Trilobite

9. Comment #97277 by Janus on December 11, 2007 at 8:55 pm

Are acts of this kind inspired by Arabic culture or by Islam?

Other Comments by Janus

10. Comment #97283 by DAVE1618 on December 11, 2007 at 8:59 pm

As Hitchens says, Religion poisons everything. I wonder if those retards feel any remorse or shame for killing their own child or sibling over a f'ing scarf.

Other Comments by DAVE1618

11. Comment #97294 by eric.malitz on December 11, 2007 at 9:16 pm

very sad. a good opportunity for people to come out and say directly- "this is the result of religious belief". However, people will probably ignore the real cause of this and treat it as an isolated case.

Other Comments by eric.malitz

12. Comment #97299 by communion wafer on December 11, 2007 at 9:31 pm

The headline suffers from displaced agency.

Other Comments by communion wafer

13. Comment #97300 by lisadp on December 11, 2007 at 9:32 pm

No one else pointed it out so I better...

I don't think a father strangling his daughter has much to do with religion. If some non-Muslim nutter strangled his daughter for not wearing clothing he deemed modest, we'd say he was a domineering chauvinist and a psychopath.

So the point here is that religion sometimes happens to act as a veil for a seriously nasty/psychopathic personality, but it doesn't mean we aren't going to see this kind of stuff from non-religious psychopaths.

Other Comments by lisadp

14. Comment #97301 by The Architect on December 11, 2007 at 9:34 pm

It's a reminder that Canada, as secular as we are, is not immune to the atrocious acts that can be inspired by religion.

Of course, anyone who cricitizes or even thinks "maybe some aspects of Islam are not such a great idea" in Canada will be branded with hate speech and Islamophobia.

I would also doubt that this had anything to do with religious background, and the father sounded more like a clinically psychotic asshole control freak.

Other Comments by The Architect

15. Comment #97305 by zmd014227 on December 11, 2007 at 9:38 pm

Religion is such pointless arbitrary drivel. I work with Muslims who wear the hijab, and with Muslims who don't. It seems to make no difference to how pious a Muslim you are. It doesn't even seem necessary. I wonder why Muslim women do it at all.

Anyone want to bet that this guy was itching to kill his daughter for breaking Islamic law even if she wore the hijab? For example, not being a virgin?

I'm thinking he was a typical frustrated father seeing his daughter grow up and blossom into a woman emotionally and sexually (just look at the picture), and he couldn't take it. But whereas most fathers take a swig of bourbon and get over it, Islam gave him the motivation to strangle her because of the stupid scarf BS. Hitchens is right, but he does a disservice to poison: poison sometimes can serve an evolutionary purpose. Religion has no purpose.

Other Comments by zmd014227

16. Comment #97308 by cowalker on December 11, 2007 at 9:44 pm

robotaholic:

you KNOW that any religion that can cause a parent to kill their child must be a perversion- these people are COMPLETELY brainwashed

Speaking as a parent, I say that this is a profound statement.

My brother-in-law and sister-in-law fought for, and won, custody of a toddler fathered by their daughter's boyfriend. Said boyfriend had impregnated their daughter some two months before. The mother of the other toddler had succumbed to drug addictions, and the other toddler had been turned over to Children's Servies.

You can say they are crazy. Having interacted with the sweet, delightful "other" toddler in question, I say they are normally conscious of moral demands made by their position. It would have been easy for them to pretend young daughter's problems had nothing to do with them. Instead they chose to respond with heart and generosity.

Other Comments by cowalker

17. Comment #97309 by Zakie Chan on December 11, 2007 at 9:45 pm

To quote George Costanza, "I'm speechless. I am without speech. I have NO speech!"

Other Comments by Zakie Chan

18. Comment #97310 by Damien White on December 11, 2007 at 9:45 pm

Any religion which requires half its members to wear a bag over their heads has some serious issues to deal with.

Other Comments by Damien White

19. Comment #97317 by Spinoza on December 11, 2007 at 9:55 pm

Damien, Judaism requires it too (generally practiced in Orthodox only, but try and figure out how many Jewish women wear wigs... I bet you wouldn't even know had I not just told you!), and Christianity used to.

Only recently has Christianity stopped with the modesty of dress requirement.

ALL religions have misogyny and anti-sexual elements.

It just happens to be that Islam is the largest one left that has the most of those two elements still left in practice.

It is that old xenophobic 'rag-head' (or in this case, 'bag-head') sort of talk that makes me angry at my fellow atheists.

It isn't that they require a 'bag' to be worn on their heads, the women wear head-scarves because it's the traditional way to meet the requirement for modesty (hijab). Some sects go further, but in the Quran it is not mandated that women be forced to wear anything... it just says that women should dress modestly... whatever that means.

As Janus pointed out, there is a significant 'Arabization' that occurred in Islam, and has resulted in a lingering tribal mentality and a really piss-poor morality.

Other Comments by Spinoza

20. Comment #97322 by kintaro_crab on December 11, 2007 at 10:02 pm

I don't know what to say, I guess its just more proof that religion poisons everything.

Other Comments by kintaro_crab

21. Comment #97328 by Bonzai on December 11, 2007 at 10:19 pm

It is bad enough to get into a big argument over something so trivial,let alone getting into physical violence, but there is nothing in the article that says the father intended to strangle the daughter, it could very well be a scuffle that has gotten out of hand.

Another thing to consider is that religion may be just a proxy for other conflicts that have been simmering beneath. For example the father's perception of threat to his authority. The hijab might have been just the last straw(ethnic and religious identities are almost inseparable for many people)

Many men emigrated from very conservative, patriarchal societies suffer a profound cultural shock. They see woman better educated, making more money than themselves, they may have female bosses, their wives are working and making their own money and no longer have to be meek and submissive. The only women they still have absolute control over are their daughters. When even the daughters say no, their world finally falls apart.

Other Comments by Bonzai

22. Comment #97331 by notsobad on December 11, 2007 at 10:25 pm

I don't think a father strangling his daughter has much to do with religion. If some non-Muslim nutter strangled his daughter for not wearing clothing he deemed modest, we'd say he was a domineering chauvinist and a psychopath.

And where would that father learn what's modest and what's not? Not from a rational, dogma-free source in my opinion.

Other Comments by notsobad

23. Comment #97333 by Styrer- on December 11, 2007 at 10:43 pm

I will work on an intelligent response to this later, even if I don't post it.

In the meantime, I'm afraid I'm just weeping and weeping.

Does anyone else here ever feel the same, despite the Prof's work?

Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

24. Comment #97342 by Fanusi Khiyal on December 11, 2007 at 11:24 pm

And people wonder why I say that destroying Islam will be a service to humanity.

This kind of barbarism has been the norm since Islam's earliest days.

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

25. Comment #97351 by Downunder on December 12, 2007 at 12:00 am

Re post 5 Pakbabydoll and 7 Cerberus; any indoctrination, glorification or brainwashing, be it religion, politics, business, etc. will produce some fanatics with warped/simple minds, etc. Even in sport some spectators go into a frenzy ! What is the cure? Jails are an easy way out but objectively are stupid, achieve little for the cost and pain involved for both offenders and offended. Common sense tells me that for minor offences punishment "in kind", restitution, etc. should be applied. For major offences against the law (or humanity) of the society in which the offender lives or in which the offence was committed, and if the offender is obviously, positively guilty, I suggest a nice but "laced" last supper, without any media hype; not for punishment or revenge but simply because the offender by his/her own free has made a war-like act against that society. In war, killing of the enemy is condoned by all societies as far as I'm aware. Moreover, anyone who wants to live in whichever society, should "do as the Romans do" or expect to be send back to wherever they came from. As a rule, simple common sense should apply, psychological excuses may apply but only if obvious to all, not just to the experts.

Other Comments by Downunder

26. Comment #97360 by atheist_peace on December 12, 2007 at 12:29 am

I have no faith in the Canadian justice system's ability to deliver justice to this murderer (of the first degree).

Other Comments by atheist_peace

27. Comment #97362 by epeeist on December 12, 2007 at 12:44 am

I would be slightly careful about this one. There may be a religious element, but it could equally be a domestic argument that got out of hand. Until it goes to trial I certainly wouldn't leap to any conclusions.

What I would expect is that the trial should be conducted under normal criminal law with no deference given to "cultural" or religious factors.

Other Comments by epeeist

28. Comment #97369 by phatbat on December 12, 2007 at 1:27 am

I think that incidents like this highlight Ayaan's points in the debate the other day with Ed hussain. All muslims elevating the scribblings in the holy books to something more than they are mean that brain-washed men like him will feel like they have a holy warrant to do what they do. The so called moderate muslims need to be talking more about not taking the qur'an and hadith as seriously as it is and acknowledge that a lot of it is obviously a load of rubbish and in no way fits into modern life.

I think its true that a lot of non religious men will be angry if their daughter's wear revealing clothes and will forbid it, maybe some will hit their children and beat them, but to strangle and kill your daughter over it takes religion (to coin a phrase)

Other Comments by phatbat

29. Comment #97372 by andysin on December 12, 2007 at 1:30 am

I don't know if anybody is interested but I found this forum on this topic and posted (under andysin) simply because everybody was excusing religion in this, some even saying the crime was sexist in nature. What did I get for it? Banned from the forum. I don't really care all that much but this sort of cencorship doesn't leave me much hope for freedom of speech and healthy debate.

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=009644

I would encourage others to post, even if you do get banned then at least there is more than one opinion and people won't just think my opinion is that of a crazy hobo....

Other Comments by andysin

30. Comment #97374 by Styrer- on December 12, 2007 at 1:32 am

I would be slightly careful about this one. There may be a religious element, but it could equally be a domestic argument that got out of hand. Until it goes to trial I certainly wouldn't leap to any conclusions.

What I would expect is that the trial should be conducted under normal criminal law with no deference given to "cultural" or religious factors.

No deference, certainly and agreed, but the cultural and religious factors must surely be permitted to support the prosecution's case?

The prosecution will, I suspect, have absolutely no difficulty in providing ample previous case evidence in support of their attack.

While I would usually agree with your caution, I think that cultural and religious factors should be the very centre of the prosecution's case in this one.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

31. Comment #97381 by Bonzai on December 12, 2007 at 1:59 am

Comment #97372 by andysin

Looks like you have stumbled upon the HQ of the PC brigade.

To be honest I find your post there a bit simplistic and somewhat premature, as we don't know what has actually transpired at this point. But I find the reflexive responses telling, with gems like "Islam is a religion that embraces women's equality, fosters peace, and has at the core a belief in democratic institutions."

While I think we shouldn't assume Islam is the culprit before any investigation, these deluded cultural leftists are determined to exonerate it no matter what evidence may turn up.

They are correct that Islam doesn't approve of honour killing, but not for the reason they think,-- that "Islam is a religion that embraces women's equality, fosters peace, and has at the core a belief in democratic institutions."

According to Sharia punishment has to be carried out by the proper authority. If your daughter renounces Islam and elopes with a boy it would be wrong for you to kill her not because she doesn't deserve to be killed according to Islam, but because you would have usurped the authority of the Sharia court by taking matters into your own hands. She should be executed under the order of a Sharia judge.

P.S. Is rabble.ca Judy Rebeck's outfit?

Other Comments by Bonzai

32. Comment #97382 by Fanusi Khiyal on December 12, 2007 at 2:04 am

I would be slightly careful about this one. There may be a religious element, but it could equally be a domestic argument that got out of hand. Until it goes to trial I certainly wouldn't leap to any conclusions.

Are you serious? This is about a hijab . That's a piece of Islamic religious headwear. Muslim fathers killing their daughters for 'immodesty' is hardly unknown, nor is murdering them for leaving the faith, or wishing to do so uncommon. This is a story that has repeated itself millions of times.

Why do I have trouble shaking the impression that the unofficial motto of certain members of this website is 'we're against all religion - as long as its Christianity, because if it's Islam we'll be nice and defferential'?

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

33. Comment #97385 by Ian on December 12, 2007 at 2:09 am

I have to admit that as I read Morris' open letter with its repetition of lies, I felt disheartened.

Now I feel angry.

That the religious are so insane they can murder their own children and call it honour.

That the most important thing they can think of saying to this is: It's not us!

Get back in your box, Fr Morris. I'd rather stop HIV than prey over the aftermath.

Other Comments by Ian

34. Comment #97389 by Rodney on December 12, 2007 at 2:22 am

Andysin,

I just looked at the link, I cant believe how you were chucked out so quickly by the moderator.

This kind of special treatment reserved for religion annoys me. Just because it is a religion it is apparantly inherently morally good. What happened to free speach? What site was this any way?

This poster was almost funny, I think the irony escaped him.

"Islam is a religion that embraces women's equality, fosters peace, and has at the core a belief in democratic institutions".

I guess one could interperate Islam in this way, but it would entail a bit creative and selective reasoning. The problem is, even if this is what Islam explicitly states (it does not), this is not what we see when we look around the world where it is put into practice.

The more Islamic the state, the more oppressive and anti-democratic it becomes.

My sympathy goes out to the friends of this girl and any of the family who are human enough to care.

Other Comments by Rodney

35. Comment #97393 by stephenray on December 12, 2007 at 2:33 am

Ooops.

It may be that religion is involved with 'honour killings', but it isn't necessarily the cause. It's a social/cultural thing, isn't it?
For a start off, yesterday's BBC Radio 4 programme 'Taking a stand' featured the *Sikh* brother of a *Sikh* woman who was 'lured' to India and killed by her mother in law because she was planning to divorce the woman's son - an 'honour killing'. I know I have heard of honour killings amongst Hindus as well.

Now, we don't have honour killings in countries in the 'christian' world, but let's not over-egg the pudding and attribute this killing to Islam.

Admittedly this murder appears to have been set off by the daughter's refusal to comport herself according to the dictates of her parents' religion, but the distinction is important, even if it is a fine one.

Where an act of criminal stupidity is prompted by religion, let's say so. Where it is attributable just to primitive ignorance, let's say *that*.

And while I'm at it, can we find a suitably insulting and disgusted alternative to the phrase 'honour killing', which makes it clear to the fuckwit pigs who approve of such acts that they are simply inexcusable and unforgiveable?

Other Comments by stephenray

36. Comment #97395 by epeeist on December 12, 2007 at 2:43 am

Comment #97382 by Fanusi Khiyal

Are you serious? This is about a hijab .

No, the article says it was allegedly about the wearing of western clothes rather than the hijab. But it hasn't yet been brought to trial and no evidence has been presented. I hope you accept that articles in a newspaper don't have a particularly high evidential value.

Within a 100m of where I used to live a man murdered his wife then committed suicide. They were both devout Christians, using your hasty generalisation am I committed to blaming Christianity for the murder. Alternatively would it be better to wait for the inquest at which it was shown that the man was schizophrenic?

You might think that there was a strong religious element to this murder (which is what I also think), but until the trial you cannot know this.

Other Comments by epeeist

37. Comment #97405 by Styrer- on December 12, 2007 at 3:16 am

You are all so naive. This crime is borne out of a dark ages religion and it is as simple as that. It is not a sexist crime, it is religious. The religion is sexist but the motivations are due to religious beliefs and the girl refused to conform to them. Her father saw this as an insult to Islam or mohammed or whatever. Islam teaches their followers to put their religion god and prophet ahead of their family and themselves and it is a dangerous religion. People need to stop sidestepping that and stop respecting philosophies that don't fit with a reasonable, modern, democratic world. Only then will people like this girl start to be safe in thinking for themselves.

There is nothing in this post to the other site with which I disagree whatsoever.

Andysin has in fact articulated precisely the anti-reason which is Islam and accurately and properly placed the blame for this murder right at the door of Islam and its followers.

Bonzai - 'simplistic'? Really? So this murder is more complicated than Andysin conveys? How so, may I ask?

Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

38. Comment #97411 by Bonzai on December 12, 2007 at 3:31 am

Bonzai - 'simplistic'? Really? So this murder is more complicated than Andysin conveys? How so, may I ask?

I mentioned some possibilities in #21.

Other Comments by Bonzai

39. Comment #97412 by Incredulous on December 12, 2007 at 3:39 am

While I would usually agree with your caution, I think that cultural and religious factors should be the very centre of the prosecution's case in this one.

I sympathise with the apparent influence of primitive dogma on this case, but I really do think that facts and evidence should be the very centre of ALL legal process.

At the moment we only suspect cultural and religious are major factors but it is correct, in my opinion, to remain consistent to the view that evidence based reasoning is what matters.

While I understand the 'It takes a thief to catch a thief' approach to certain undertakings, I'm not sure that we need to respond to theist irrationality by behaving as irrationality.

As someone said: 'An eye for an eye makes everyone blind'. There's a difference between protecting what is yours and ill considered knee jerk responses potentially inflaming the situation.

Let's wait for all the evidence to come out in public and if there are cultural and religious factors then we can take steps to ensure our societies no longer comply or condone such madness. There will be nowhere for them to hide when this happens.

I am in full agreement with epeeist here. The poor girl is dead, it is the use of reason which appropriately applied will prevent others going the same way.

Other Comments by Incredulous

40. Comment #97413 by steve99 on December 12, 2007 at 3:40 am

From the article:

Peel Police are investigating Aqsa's death. It's natural to want answers about why this tragedy occurred, but we really don't have any of those answers yet. So it's important to avoid speculation or rumours.

I am a bit concerned that people are jumping to conclusions. This is a case under investigation. No matter what we think now, doesn't it make sense to at least wait until the case is over and we find out what the result is?

Edit: incredulous beat me to it, and said it better.

Other Comments by steve99

41. Comment #97417 by Ian on December 12, 2007 at 3:52 am

It may be that religion is involved with 'honour killings', but it isn't necessarily the cause. It's a social/cultural thing, isn't it?

Fair point.

I'd like to liken it to chinese foot binding, another cultural practice in which women were harmed that continued into the 20th century.

When Christian misionaries encountered the practice, to their credit, they joined several chinese groups in campaigning for its abolition.

Islam's failure in this is that it sets extreme standards of conformity without moderating its response. As a consequence, it is more barbaric than what it opposes.

The same is true for circumcision. There is no requirement in Islam for women to be circumcised, so moslems turn around and say: nothing to do with us.

Negligence in the face of cruelty is not exactly a high moral standard and from people who claim that you're not moral if you are not one of them, it's not very impressive.

Other Comments by Ian

42. Comment #97420 by scott715 on December 12, 2007 at 4:02 am

I disagree with the comment made by lisadp

"I don't think a father strangling his daughter has much to do with religion. If some non-Muslim nutter strangled his daughter for not wearing clothing he deemed modest, we'd say he was a domineering chauvinist and a psychopath.

So the point here is that religion sometimes happens to act as a veil for a seriously nasty/psychopathic personality, but it doesn't mean we aren't going to see this kind of stuff from non-religious psychopaths."

This is exactly about religion. True there are psychos who kill their children for other than religious reasons, but the facts seem to indicate that this was specifically a religious killing. The father might have been a psycho anyway, but his specific mania was religious in nature.

As an ex-Mormon I can say that trying to live your life by a set of impossible standards causes a lot of stress. It is why people in Utah use more anti-depressants than any other state. You spend all of your life worrying that you will do something wrong that you will be punished for all eternity for. A sure recipe for psychosis.

Other Comments by scott715

43. Comment #97421 by bamboospitfire on December 12, 2007 at 4:05 am

Incredulous and steve99 make a serious point, but if people are jumping to conclusions as to the motive when a Muslim father strangles his westernised daughter, the only people to blame for that are all the other Muslim fathers who have murdered their westernised or otherwise "un-Islamic" daughters on religious grounds. Let's wait and see, but I fear that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Other Comments by bamboospitfire

44. Comment #97425 by Styrer- on December 12, 2007 at 4:19 am

Bonzai

Thanks for reply - yes, I noted your comments in No. 21.

Do you not think your empathetic account of the father's murder of his daughter in this scenario is, at best, unhelpful?

While you are certainly not necessarily condoning such, your explication for it lacks the condemnation we surely agree it deserves. Any objection you may make that an objection is implicit would really not be good enough. It is conspicuous by its absence, as a result of your overly-sympathetic stance here.

The 'hijab' is not incidental to this event, as you seem to want us to at least consider for a moment; it is at the heart of it, and is entirely the surmisable motivating factor in this murder by a father of his daughter.

Murder by fathers of their daughters is one of the most unusual and rare events we can encounter in non-Muslim countries. I would therefore strongly recommend that you relinquish your liberal, egalitarian principles in this case.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

45. Comment #97426 by Clapton_is_God on December 12, 2007 at 4:23 am

"Are acts of this kind inspired by Arabic culture or by Islam? "

If you read Aayan Hirsi Ali's book "Infidel", you will learn that it is the religion, not the culture, that is the problem. It happens in Somalia, and wherever Somalis have taken refuge (such as Holland), and they are not Arabs.

In the UK it happens in the Pakistani and Bangladeshi community - they are also Moslems, of course.

Iranians (Persians) are NOT Arabs - in fact they despise Arabs, and we all know what Iran is like.

CIG

Other Comments by Clapton_is_God

46. Comment #97428 by Jehovah's Waitress on December 12, 2007 at 4:27 am

"wow, she was pretty, what a shame..."
Yes, it would have been much more palatable if she had been ugly and/or obese.

Other Comments by Jehovah's Waitress

47. Comment #97429 by Styrer- on December 12, 2007 at 4:28 am

Incredulous

I am not suggesting a subverting of the usual rules of inquiry. May I remind you, and any who think I am doing so, of this thread's title:

Girl, 16, dies after hijab dispute with father

It is precisely to this, and the informative article beneath it, that I am responding, and for which I am requesting inclusion, in the prosecution's case, of the title's and the articles's inferences.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

48. Comment #97436 by Tyler Durden on December 12, 2007 at 4:53 am

"Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things... but for good people to do bad things, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg

Comment #97420 by scott715

As an ex-Mormon I can say that trying to live your life by a set of impossible standards causes a lot of stress...

scott, how difficult is it to leave the Mormon faith? It it anything like the horror stories we read about re: Islam

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49. Comment #97448 by epeeist on December 12, 2007 at 5:19 am

Comment #97425 by Styrer

Murder by fathers of their daughters is one of the most unusual and rare events we can encounter in non-Muslim countries.

There are about 50 child murders in the UK each year, nearly 90% of which are done by parents and carers.

I think all the Bonzai, Steve99 and I are saying is, don't make assumptions on the basis of a single newspaper article. If it turns out that indeed there was a cultural/religious basis for the murder then this is the time to criticise. If it turns out to have been a simple domestic disturbance that got out of hand then you undermine the case against the barbarism and misogyny of the religion if you condemn it beforehand.

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50. Comment #97452 by APPlet on December 12, 2007 at 5:36 am

It seems as though the family somewhat backs the father as her father, Muhammad Parvez, 57, has been charged with her strangulation murder and her brother Waqas, 26, is charged with obstruction of justice.

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