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Monday, December 17, 2007 | Science : Evolution and Biology | print version Print | Comments

Document Synthetic DNA on the Brink of Yielding New Life Forms

by Washington Post

Thanks to EJ Ashcraft III for the link.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/16/AR2007121601900_pf.html

Synthetic DNA on the Brink of Yielding New Life Forms

By Rick Weiss
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, December 17, 2007; A01


It has been 50 years since scientists first created DNA in a test tube, stitching ordinary chemical ingredients together to make life's most extraordinary molecule. Until recently, however, even the most sophisticated laboratories could make only small snippets of DNA -- an extra gene or two to be inserted into corn plants, for example, to help the plants ward off insects or tolerate drought.

Now researchers are poised to cross a dramatic barrier: the creation of life forms driven by completely artificial DNA.

Scientists in Maryland have already built the world's first entirely handcrafted chromosome -- a large looping strand of DNA made from scratch in a laboratory, containing all the instructions a microbe needs to live and reproduce.

In the coming year, they hope to transplant it into a cell, where it is expected to "boot itself up," like software downloaded from the Internet, and cajole the waiting cell to do its bidding. And while the first synthetic chromosome is a plagiarized version of a natural one, others that code for life forms that have never existed before are already under construction.

The cobbling together of life from synthetic DNA, scientists and philosophers agree, will be a watershed event, blurring the line between biological and artificial -- and forcing a rethinking of what it means for a thing to be alive.

"This raises a range of big questions about what nature is and what it could be," said Paul Rabinow, an anthropologist at the University of California at Berkeley who studies science's effects on society. "Evolutionary processes are no longer seen as sacred or inviolable. People in labs are figuring them out so they can improve upon them for different purposes."

That unprecedented degree of control over creation raises more than philosophical questions, however. What kinds of organisms will scientists, terrorists and other creative individuals make? How will these self-replicating entities be contained? And who might end up owning the patent rights to the basic tools for synthesizing life?

Some experts are worried that a few maverick companies are already gaining monopoly control over the core "operating system" for artificial life and are poised to become the Microsofts of synthetic biology. That could stifle competition, they say, and place enormous power in a few people's hands.

"We're heading into an era where people will be writing DNA programs like the early days of computer programming, but who will own these programs?" asked Drew Endy, a scientist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

At the core of synthetic biology's new ascendance are high-speed DNA synthesizers that can produce very long strands of genetic material from basic chemical building blocks: sugars, nitrogen-based compounds and phosphates.

Today a scientist can write a long genetic program on a computer just as a maestro might compose a musical score, then use a synthesizer to convert that digital code into actual DNA. Experiments with "natural" DNA indicate that when a faux chromosome gets plopped into a cell, it will be able to direct the destruction of the cell's old DNA and become its new "brain" -- telling the cell to start making a valuable chemical, for example, or a medicine or a toxin, or a bio-based gasoline substitute.

Unlike conventional biotechnology, in which scientists induce modest genetic changes in cells to make them serve industrial purposes, synthetic biology involves the large-scale rewriting of genetic codes to create metabolic machines with singular purposes.

"I see a cell as a chassis and power supply for the artificial systems we are putting together," said Tom Knight of MIT, who likes to compare the state of cell biology today to that of mechanical engineering in 1864. That is when the United States began to adopt standardized thread sizes for nuts and bolts, an advance that allowed the construction of complex devices from simple, interchangeable parts.

If biology is to morph into an engineering discipline, it is going to need similarly standardized parts, Knight said. So he and colleagues have started a collection of hundreds of interchangeable genetic components they call BioBricks, which students and others are already popping into cells like Lego pieces.

So far, synthetic biology is still semi-synthetic, involving single-cell organisms such as bacteria and yeast that have a blend of natural and synthetic DNA. The cells can reproduce, a defining trait of life. But in many cases that urge has been genetically suppressed, along with other "distracting" biological functions, to maximize productivity.

"Most cells go about life like we do, with the intention to make more of themselves after eating," said John Pierce, a vice president at DuPont in Wilmington, Del., a leader in the field. "But what we want them to do is make stuff we want."

J. Craig Venter, chief executive of Synthetic Genomics in Rockville, knows what he wants his cells to make: ethanol, hydrogen and other exotic fuels for vehicles, to fill a market that has been estimated to be worth $1 trillion.

In a big step toward that goal, Venter has now built the first fully artificial chromosome, a strand of DNA many times longer than anything made by others and laden with all the genetic components a microbe needs to get by.

Details of the process are under wraps until the work is published, probably early next year. But Venter has already shown that he can insert a "natural" chromosome into a cell and bring it to life. If a synthetic chromosome works the same way, as expected, the first living cells with fully artificial genomes could be growing in dishes by the end of 2008.

The plan is to mass-produce a plain genetic platform able to direct the basic functions of life, then attach custom-designed DNA modules that can compel cells to make synthetic fuels or other products.

It will be a challenge to cultivate fuel-spewing microbes, Venter acknowledged. Among other problems, he said, is that unless the fuel is constantly removed, "the bugs will basically pickle themselves."

But the hurdles are not insurmountable. LS9 Inc., a company in San Carlos, Calif., is already using E. coli bacteria that have been reprogrammed with synthetic DNA to produce a fuel alternative from a diet of corn syrup and sugar cane. So efficient are the bugs' synthetic metabolisms that LS9 predicts it will be able to sell the fuel for just $1.25 a gallon.

At a DuPont plant in Tennessee, other semi-synthetic bacteria are living on cornstarch and making the chemical 1,3 propanediol, or PDO. Millions of pounds of the stuff are being spun and woven into high-tech fabrics (DuPont's chief executive wears a pinstripe suit made of it), putting the bug-begotten chemical on track to become the first $1 billion biotech product that is not a pharmaceutical.

Engineers at DuPont studied blueprints of E. coli's metabolism and used synthetic DNA to help the bacteria make PDO far more efficiently than could have been done with ordinary genetic engineering.

"If you want to sell it at a dollar a gallon . . . you need every bit of efficiency you can muster," said DuPont's Pierce. "So we're running these bugs to their limits."

Yet another application is in medicine, where synthetic DNA is allowing bacteria and yeast to produce the malaria drug artemisinin far more efficiently than it is made in plants, its natural source.

Bugs such as these will seem quaint, scientists say, once fully synthetic organisms are brought on line to work 24/7 on a range of tasks, from industrial production to chemical cleanups. But the prospect of a flourishing synbio economy has many wondering who will own the valuable rights to that life.

In the past year, the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office has been flooded with aggressive synthetic-biology claims. Some of Venter's applications, in particular, "are breathtaking in their scope," said Knight. And with Venter's company openly hoping to develop "an operating system for biologically-based software," some fear it is seeking synthetic hegemony.

"We've asked our patent lawyers to be reasonable and not to be overreaching," Venter said. But competitors such as DuPont, he said, "have just blanketed the field with patent applications."

Safety concerns also loom large. Already a few scientists have made viruses from scratch. The pending ability to make bacteria -- which, unlike viruses, can live and reproduce in the environment outside of a living body -- raises new concerns about contamination, contagion and the potential for mischief.

"Ultimately synthetic biology means cheaper and widely accessible tools to build bioweapons, virulent pathogens and artificial organisms that could pose grave threats to people and the planet," concluded a recent report by the Ottawa-based ETC Group, one of dozens of advocacy groups that want a ban on releasing synthetic organisms pending wider societal debate and regulation.

"The danger is not just bio-terror but bio-error," the report says.

Many scientists say the threat has been overblown. Venter notes that his synthetic genomes are spiked with special genes that make the microbes dependent on a rare nutrient not available in nature. And Pierce, of DuPont, says the company's bugs are too spoiled to survive outdoors.

"They are designed to grow in a cosseted environment with very high food levels," Pierce said. "You throw this guy out on the ground, he just can't compete. He's toast."

"We've heard that before," said Jim Thomas, ETC Group's program manager, noting that genes engineered into crops have often found their way into other plants despite assurances to the contrary. "The fact is, you can build viruses, and soon bacteria, from downloaded instructions on the Internet," Thomas said. "Where's the governance and oversight?"

In fact, government controls on trade in dangerous microbes do not apply to the bits of DNA that can be used to create them. And while some industry groups have talked about policing the field themselves, the technology is quickly becoming so simple, experts say, that it will not be long before "bio hackers" working in garages will be downloading genetic programs and making them into novel life forms.

"The cat is out of the bag," said Jay Keasling, chief of synthetic biology at the University of California at Berkeley.

Andrew Light, an environmental ethicist at the University of Washington in Seattle, said synthetic biology poses a conundrum because of its double-edged ability to both wreak biological havoc and perhaps wean civilization from dirty 20th-century technologies and petroleum-based fuels.

"For the environmental community, I think this is going to be a really hard choice," Light said.

Depending on how people adjust to the idea of man-made life -- and on how useful the first products prove to be -- the field could go either way, Light said.

"It could be that synthetic biology is going to be like cellphones: so overwhelming and ubiquitous that no one notices it anymore. Or it could be like abortion -- the kind of deep disagreement that will not go away."

The question, if the abortion model holds, is which side of the synthetic biology debate will get to call itself "pro-life."

Comments 1 - 50 of 138 |

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1. Comment #99614 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 17, 2007 at 7:37 am

 avatarPeople simply have no idea what is coming down the pipe, and how swiftly the world will change, simply no idea whatever.

Incredible.

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

2. Comment #99615 by BAEOZ on December 17, 2007 at 7:37 am

 avatar
That unprecedented degree of control over creation raises more than philosophical questions

Creation? That implies a creator, doesn't it? And that creator must ultimately be the chrisian god. That's it! I'm converted! I'm becoming a zoroastrian, they're christian aren't they?....What a loaded word!
Cool science, raises a few ethical issues. Also puts certain religious types' beliefs in the "oh don't worry about him, he's a bit dotty, but we humour him" basket when they say life is a gift of god.....ok, it may be a gift of god, but he's not the only giver* it would seem. Damn logic gets me every time. :)

*If god exists, and god is a providential god as roughly defined in so called holy books....

Other Comments by BAEOZ

3. Comment #99616 by alexmzk on December 17, 2007 at 7:38 am

mindblowing.
possibly one of the most important scientific processes ever?

Other Comments by alexmzk

4. Comment #99617 by BAEOZ on December 17, 2007 at 7:40 am

 avatar
mindblowing.
possibly one of the most important scientific processes ever?

No, superluminal travel would be the most important scientific development, if it be possible. :P
Followed by the creation (damn that word!) of the Federation and war with the Klingons on the political front......

Other Comments by BAEOZ

5. Comment #99619 by VanYoungman on December 17, 2007 at 7:47 am

 avatarA car running on shit. Will wonders never cease?

Other Comments by VanYoungman

6. Comment #99620 by alexmzk on December 17, 2007 at 7:47 am

Followed by the creation (damn that word!) of the Federation and war with the Klingons on the political front......

i concur. that sounds pretty cool.

Other Comments by alexmzk

7. Comment #99623 by chauvinj on December 17, 2007 at 8:02 am

New title for the artile: When a Scientist Becomes God

Other Comments by chauvinj

8. Comment #99624 by Diacanu on December 17, 2007 at 8:02 am

 avatarHopefully the simulant offspring of humankind won't fuck things up with superstitious dogma the second time around.

Other Comments by Diacanu

9. Comment #99625 by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy on December 17, 2007 at 8:04 am

Genuinely makes me bounce up and down with giddiness. But then we shouldn't be surprised, this stuff was a common theme for SF writers in the late 90's/early part of the century. Where SF leads, science isn't too far behind. (Just so long as nobody tries to copy JC Grimwood's idea of a ferrous eating super bacteria)

The deffinitions of what is alive and what isn't just get kicked about when stuff like this crops up.

Other Comments by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy

10. Comment #99631 by Diacanu on December 17, 2007 at 8:16 am

 avatar" All those ... moments will be lost in time, like tears...in the rain".

http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/images/Bladerunner19.jpg

Other Comments by Diacanu

11. Comment #99638 by BigChiefRainInFace on December 17, 2007 at 8:31 am

 avatarIntelligent robots vs intelligent artificial life forms - who will dominate the planet in 50 years?

Other Comments by BigChiefRainInFace

12. Comment #99639 by Mark Till on December 17, 2007 at 8:31 am

Wow. No other word for it. The debate over GM crops seems pathetic in comparison!

Other Comments by Mark Till

13. Comment #99647 by artificialhabitat on December 17, 2007 at 8:45 am

 avatarchauvinj:
New title for the artile: When a Scientist Becomes God


Put's me in mind of a PZ quote, which if I recall was in a post about an older article (which took that kind of tack) about Venter and his research:

"Playing God" is where you do absolutely nothing, take credit for other entities' work, and don't even exist — scientists don't aspire to such a useless status

Other Comments by artificialhabitat

14. Comment #99667 by John Done on December 17, 2007 at 9:22 am

Once when I was still a Christian, I bet someone that there would never be artificial life, that without a soul which humans can't create, organic material remains dead. It's a good thing nobody recorded that bet.

Whenever people caution against the advance of science, you'll find two reasons behind it. Either 1) they're warning against the potential of doing evil with it- a legitamite concern, but no reason to revert to primitivism- or 2) you're "tampering in the realm of nature", doing things humans were never "meant" to do. The motive behind the second motive is usually religious, because if there's a god he almost certainly has a plan for you and anything that you do on your own whim can only screw it up. Uncovering the workings of the universe is seen as another way of tampering in God's domain, and therein we see the God of the Gaps argument. God is supposed to explain something, but science doesn't leave him very much room and the idea becomes irrelevant (or at least it becomes obvious that it was always irrelevant). So when evolution came around, the religions declared "That can't be right" until eventually some said "Okay, we were wrong about evolution, but you CAN'T claim that the soul is really just the workings of the brain!" And once that's done they'll go on to say that you can't make life from scratch, but then they'll realize that we've already been there, done that.

Hopefully we won't have to wait until we master EVERYTHING ABOUT NATURE before people realize how meaningless the concept of God is.

Other Comments by John Done

15. Comment #99696 by thelivingbrian on December 17, 2007 at 10:38 am

 avatarNow THAT'S an extended phenotype!

Other Comments by thelivingbrian

16. Comment #99701 by USA_Limey on December 17, 2007 at 10:56 am

 avatarCan't wait for them to come up with their own artifically created bacterial flagellum.

Other Comments by USA_Limey

17. Comment #99721 by Quine on December 17, 2007 at 12:22 pm

 avatarFor many years there has been a push among a branch of developers of molecular nanotechnology for a path through synthetic biology. Whereas the nanotech folks struggle with a very difficult problem of how to make the first replicator, biologists already have replicators (virus, bacteria etc.). (Although some Grey_goo worriers are pushing for the no-replicator nanofactory approach.)

Synthetic biology does provide a mind-blowing space of possibilities, but it also provides the ability to substitute inorganic molecules for components. Some natural bacteria do build things like magnetic field direction sensors out of inorganic materials. Progressive substitution over generations is a path to completely inorganic replicators (inorganic life forms). Even near term hybrids, such as substituting symbiotic nanochondria for symbiotic mitochondria would produce benefits mind-blowingly ahead of mind-blowing synthetic biology.

[Edit: Also see developments in which DNA itself is used as a programmable structural material or even computer.]

Other Comments by Quine

18. Comment #99742 by Duff on December 17, 2007 at 1:17 pm

In 200 years, or sooner, there will be a church which worships the god Ventnor, or maybe he'll be called Venthor, their creator.

Other Comments by Duff

19. Comment #99747 by blasphememe on December 17, 2007 at 1:25 pm

 avatar
It has been 50 years since scientists first created DNA in a test tube, stitching ordinary chemical ingredients together to make life's most extraordinary molecule.


It seem's this is entirely false - wasn't DNA discovered, rather than created about 50 years ago?

Other Comments by blasphememe

20. Comment #99777 by theantitheist on December 17, 2007 at 2:18 pm

Stunning, absolutely stunning. COME ON SCIENCE!!

Thank goodness we have some people out there playing around with random little tests and theory's that seem to stitch together and accumulate and lead to other areas and become something special and unique. It's kinda like that evolution "theory", however that ones obviously false but this one's observable!!

My Mother was not a Monkey! (My dad I'm not so sure about)


Other Comments by theantitheist

21. Comment #99810 by Downunder on December 17, 2007 at 3:32 pm

 avatarre John Done's post 14, are you misunderstanding something here, or am I wrong? DNA is *not* life. DNA is a "program" which (as yet) is planted in a life cell to "re-direct" the cell's "life" into a (hopefully) specific direction. Could a relevant expert please verify?

Other Comments by Downunder

22. Comment #99838 by RickM on December 17, 2007 at 4:51 pm

 avatarMurphy's law, anyone?

Other Comments by RickM

23. Comment #99953 by hcholm on December 18, 2007 at 12:44 am

Could this perhaps be called something like "metaevolution" or "second degree evolution"? Humans have evolved as organisms, and now develop other organisms. Now what if we can develop organisms that are more clever than us, and those organisms in turn develop even cleverer organisms, and so on?

In computer science, there is a similar scenario called the "singularity", a point in time when computers become more advanced than human brains, which means those computers will be capable of designing even more advanced computers, at an accelerating pace. From this article, it looks like it can be just as relevant to predict a biological singularity, or maybe even a hybrid computational-biological singularity. God knows where that will end. But does he have a salvation plan for those new life forms?

Other Comments by hcholm

24. Comment #99956 by Diacanu on December 18, 2007 at 1:12 am

 avatarDownunder-

DNA is *not* life.


Try living without it.
See how far you get.

Other Comments by Diacanu

25. Comment #100024 by rabbitpirate on December 18, 2007 at 5:09 am

Am I the only person who finds themselves thinking of the old Jurrasic Park "life will find a way" line when ever someone says something like "They are designed to grow in a cosseted environment with very high food levels, You throw this guy out on the ground, he just can't compete. He's toast."

Is there any reason to believe that synthetic life would not evolve in the same way as good old fashion regular life? Ok so right now your little bug can't survive but apply the pressures of natural selection and who knows what might happen.

It is still mindblowingly cool though and we definately have an interesting future ahead of us.

Other Comments by rabbitpirate

26. Comment #100270 by OrbitalMike on December 18, 2007 at 12:48 pm

 avatarAwesome! Absolutely, mindblowingly awesome!

This indeed provokes inspiration and awe.

Of course, get ready for the faith-heads to yell and scream and demand laws to prohibit this research.


Andrew Light, an environmental ethicist at the University of Washington in Seattle, said synthetic biology poses a conundrum because of its double-edged ability to both wreak biological havoc and perhaps wean civilization from dirty 20th-century technologies and petroleum-based fuels.

"For the environmental community, I think this is going to be a really hard choice," Light said.


It seems to me that many already perceive this as the biological equivalent of the first nuclear reactor.

Other Comments by OrbitalMike

27. Comment #100849 by eXcommunicate on December 19, 2007 at 12:50 pm

 avatarI really don't know what to think of this. I mean, I'm an Atheist with a capital 'A', but am weary of science being used for ill. I am a strong proponent of science, but there are too many instances in our lifetimes even where science has been perverted or gone awry. I'm no Christian doomsdayist, who doesn't think mankind should "play god" or whatever that means, but I believe these things should be heavily regulated, at least in the early to mid-stages, so that we as a society can fully come to grasp with the implications of what we're doing.

Other Comments by eXcommunicate

28. Comment #101172 by rainbow on December 20, 2007 at 3:47 am

This proves that life can be Created.
It doesn't prove that life could arise spontaneously by chance.

Other Comments by rainbow

29. Comment #101174 by Diacanu on December 20, 2007 at 3:51 am

 avatarIt proves life can be trundled together from chemicals from scratch, and doesn't need a magic life spark breathed into it.

Which proves if there were a creator, it didn't need to be a supernatural God.

But, if the creator were an alien scientist, where did he come from?
Evolution had to kick in somewhere to create the first creator.

Which means, absent flying saucers, safe to say, we probably evolved.

Other Comments by Diacanu

30. Comment #101178 by rainbow on December 20, 2007 at 4:00 am

Dia:
"doesn't need a magic life spark breathed into it."
Clearly - unless you define magic as technology we don't yet understand.

"Evolution had to kick in somewhere to create the first creator."

How did evolution kick in to form the first replicator?

You can't have evolution without replicators, can you?

Other Comments by rainbow

31. Comment #101179 by Diacanu on December 20, 2007 at 4:02 am

 avatarrainbow-

How did evolution kick in to form the first replicator?


I don't know.

But "goddidit", isn't the default fill-in answer.

Other Comments by Diacanu

32. Comment #101181 by Vaal on December 20, 2007 at 4:09 am

 avatarDoes that mean WE are God?

Other Comments by Vaal

33. Comment #101185 by rainbow on December 20, 2007 at 4:20 am

Dia:
"But "goddidit", isn't the default fill-in answer."

I didn't say it was.

The problem I have is that it requires a great deal of Faith to believe that the first replicator could've arisen by pure chance.

That is also not a great fill-in answer.

Other Comments by rainbow

34. Comment #101230 by JFHalsey on December 20, 2007 at 6:05 am

The problem I have is that it requires a great deal of Faith to believe that the first replicator could've arisen by pure chance.

That is also not a great fill-in answer.


Who said anything about "pure chance"? Natural selection is not a random toss of the dice; it is an extremely elegant way by which that which persists, persists, and that which doesn't, doesn't. Everything else in nature follows those principles, from the formation of stars and galaxies to the diversification of beaks on finches. Why should we all of a sudden assume something drastically different started the first replicators? Especially when there are, in fact, many theories that explain how the first primitive "ancestors" of RNA could have come about.

I think it's a pretty reliable fill-in, myself...


Also, as to the main topic, I think this devolpment is absolutely phenomenal. Perhaps one of mankind's greatest acheivements, ever--the creation of life from scratch! I'm so proud to be alive at this time in history...

Other Comments by JFHalsey

35. Comment #101265 by rainbow on December 20, 2007 at 6:53 am

JFH:
"Natural selection is not a random toss of the dice;"

Natural selection requires replicators, so can't be involved in the formation of the first replicator.

Stars do not form by natural selection.

Question:
Why do we not observe the formation of new replicators from non-living matter in nature?

Other Comments by rainbow

36. Comment #101306 by TonyA on December 20, 2007 at 8:00 am

 avatar"Question:
Why do we not observe the formation of new replicators from non-living matter in nature?"

At least for our replicators, we do observe them, or at least we probably would if we could watch the right environment for a couple billion years. The lack of observation doesn't disprove things that have real probabilities of occurring. We haven't directly observed lots of things that we know did occur.

It is possible that our particular kind of replicator is much more likely to occur naturally than some other kinds of replicators.

Other Comments by TonyA

37. Comment #101697 by JFHalsey on December 20, 2007 at 7:10 pm

Perhaps not Darwinian natural selection as it's defined in textbooks, but in essence it's the same thing; like I said before-- that which persists, persists, that which doesn't, doesn't. (I give Steve Grand full props for that little piece of obviousness)
Stars exist because they're stable, helium and hydrogen and the other lighter elements are stable and so are prolific in the universe where they from into stars and planets, whereas things like Bismuth or Plutonium are not very stable (in terms of atoms joining together into those molecules and then staying that way), so you don't find them very often in nature.

Likewise, when natural forces work to combine all sorts of stable elements in all sorts of configurations, those configurations that can naturally duplicate themselves (like crystals, for instance) will be more stable in terms of longevity--not because of their endurance, like planets, but because it is constantly making copies of itself.

Other Comments by JFHalsey

38. Comment #101764 by rainbow on December 20, 2007 at 11:32 pm

Tony:
"we probably would if we could watch the right environment for a couple billion years."

I would assume that the Earth is the right environment.
Yet we find ALL life on Earth using the same chemistry. Even down to the chirality of the molecules.
That points to a single origin of life.

One occurence in the entire lifetime of the Earth represents an extremely unlikely event.

Other Comments by rainbow

39. Comment #101765 by rainbow on December 20, 2007 at 11:40 pm

JFH:
"Likewise, when natural forces work to combine all sorts of stable elements in all sorts of configurations, those configurations that can naturally duplicate themselves (like crystals, for instance) will be more stable in terms of longevity--not because of their endurance, like planets, but because it is constantly making copies of itself."

...yet we can find one and only one example of a configuration that can copy itself, and evolve into greater complexity. Crystals don't do it. Stable elements don't do it. Stars don't do it.

Only life forms on Earth do it.

Don't you find that a little disturbing?

Other Comments by rainbow

40. Comment #101776 by Diacanu on December 21, 2007 at 12:56 am

 avatarrainbow-

One occurence in the entire lifetime of the Earth represents an extremely unlikely event.


Factor in the billions of planets in the galaxy, and the billions of galaxies in the universe, it not only becomes likely, but inevitable.

Other Comments by Diacanu

41. Comment #101819 by rainbow on December 21, 2007 at 2:20 am

All you're saying is that if you multipy a small number by a big number, you might get a value above 1.

However if the chances of a relicator apearing from non-living molecules is less than a billion billion billion to one - you run out of possible life supporting planets.

Other Comments by rainbow

42. Comment #101861 by JFHalsey on December 21, 2007 at 3:24 am

...I'm not sure what you find disturbing? You seem to be under the impression that life started once, ever, in a single lightning bolt-like flash, and that it's never happened again?

If life started on earth (as opposed to the panspermia theory), then early earth probably had ideal conditions for life to start. If so, it might have started more than once, but natural selection ended up weeding out all but one. Not so disturbing; it happens.

Other Comments by JFHalsey

43. Comment #101864 by Diacanu on December 21, 2007 at 3:39 am

 avatarRainbow, don't tell me what I said.
I know what I said.
Don't stuff a straw man in my mouth.
It makes me stabby.

Other Comments by Diacanu

44. Comment #101872 by Steve Zara on December 21, 2007 at 4:01 am

 avatar
The problem I have is that it requires a great deal of Faith to believe that the first replicator could've arisen by pure chance.


Until we have a clearer idea of how it did happen, that is not appropriate. For all we know, it could be a pretty easy thing to happen. We can't tell either way, so you are begging the question to assume it was very unlikely.

One occurence in the entire lifetime of the Earth represents an extremely unlikely event.


Actually, no. One occurrence is pretty much what you would expect if Earth is suitable for life. The reason is that life multiplies exponentially. So, as soon as anything got started that could use the resources around it to multiply, it would have left little left for anything else to start up. It is possible that other forms of life started that did not compete for the same chemical resources, and there is work going on to locate those (see the most recent issue of Scientific American for an interesting article on this).


...yet we can find one and only one example of a configuration that can copy itself, and evolve into greater complexity. Crystals don't do it. Stable elements don't do it. Stars don't do it.

Only life forms on Earth do it.

Don't you find that a little disturbing?


Not in the slightest.

And it is far, far too soon to say that "only life forms on Earth do it". One of the most exciting scientific finds in recent years has been the indication of liquid water within a moon of Saturn (Enceladus). It could well be than in a few hundred years, when we have explored most of the solar system, that life is most abundant elsewhere than the Earth. It is easy to imagine that the ice-covered seas of Europa could be a far larger and more stable place for life to thrive (almost certainly only microbes, however).

Other Comments by Steve Zara

45. Comment #101939 by rainbow on December 21, 2007 at 8:11 am

Steve:
"For all we know, it could be a pretty easy thing to happen."

If it were easy, why have we not observed it?

"So, as soon as anything got started that could use the resources around it to multiply, it would have left little left for anything else to start up."

Problem. If it used up all the resources, it would itself become extinct.

"It could well be ..."

"It is easy to imagine ..."

Yes, indeed.

Other Comments by rainbow

46. Comment #101943 by rainbow on December 21, 2007 at 8:23 am

JFH:
"If so, it might have started more than once, but natural selection ended up weeding out all but one."

That would be the opposite of what we observe in nature.
Different life forms coexist.
From whales to microbes - but they all have the same basic chemistry. They all have evolved from the same original replicator.

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47. Comment #101950 by Ty_Webb on December 21, 2007 at 8:55 am

However if the chances of a relicator apearing from non-living molecules is less than a billion billion billion to one - you run out of possible life supporting planets.


Well, the numbers:

Number of galaxies ~500,000,000,000 (500 billion = 5x10^11
Number of stars per galaxy ~500,000,000,000
Number of planets per star maybe 1 on average? Who knows?
Number of planets with potential for life per planet 0.1?
Number of places on said planet? Given that all it requires is in effect a puddle, perhaps 1,000,000?
Number of years 2,000,000,000
Number of potential reactions per years? 1,000?

Total possibilities: 5x10^11 x 5x10^11 x 1 x 0.1 x 1x10^6 x 2x10^9 x 1x10^3 = 5x10^40

cf a billion billion billion to 1 = 10^-27

I make those odds pretty favourable. Point is that you can make the odds of a replicating molecule turning up pretty small and still expect a lot of them to do so in the universe. It's a big place and it's had a long time to do it.

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48. Comment #101975 by Steve Zara on December 21, 2007 at 10:26 am

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If it were easy, why have we not observed it?


Well, we have. Look around you at the results. We don't observe it happenening here any more because life changes the environment. The Earth now is a very different place from what it was like billions of years ago.


Problem. If it used up all the resources, it would itself become extinct.


No. What happens is as resources get low, the organism would evolve other ways of obtaining food and energy, such as eating each other, or photosynthesis.

Yes, indeed.


All I am trying to say is that one has to accept lack of knowledge. The problem with you religious guys is that you confuse "compatible with" as "evidence for" (the existence of life is compatible with the existence of God, it is not evidence for the existence of God), and you always beg the question. You assume that the origin of life is rare because you want to involve God to explain it.

Let me ask you this... if it turns out life is abundant and appears easily, would you then admit that God was probably not involved?

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49. Comment #101977 by Steve Zara on December 21, 2007 at 10:36 am

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Natural selection requires replicators, so can't be involved in the formation of the first replicator.


Actually, it can, in a way. In systems far from thermodynamic equilibrium we see all kinds of ordered structures and systems forming. They can be physical (such as vortices) or they can be chemical (recurring patterns and cycles), on both. Different patterns can replicate and compete for resources (to put it simply) in such systems.

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50. Comment #101980 by Steve Zara on December 21, 2007 at 10:41 am

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That would be the opposite of what we observe in nature.
Different life forms coexist.
From whales to microbes - but they all have the same basic chemistry. They all have evolved from the same original replicator.


They co-exist because they have all found different niches - different ways of living. Diversity has increased. Go back in time and you find fewer varieties of things.

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