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Friday, December 21, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Good God! A politician who doesn't believe...

by Joan Bakewell

Reposted from:
http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/joan_bakewell/article3273147.ece

It was a single-word answer, which is rare for a politician. And it was a question he wasn't expecting. That's when you catch them out. Nick Clegg was clearly surprised to be asked whether he believed in God. The slight hesitancy of his answer suggests not so much a last-minute doubt about the deity but a quick mental calculation of how this would play with the voters.

Received wisdom has it that political leaders must acknowledge a higher power at some point in their lives to be electable. In America, of course, it counts far more than here: it would be a brave candidate in the States who would be as explicit about his agnosticism. In the event Nick Clegg thought an answer of such blinding clarity and lack of ambiguity called for a clarifying statement which he issued the same day.

"I am not an active believer but the last thing I would do when talking or thinking about religion is to approach it with a closed heart or a closed mind". There's space for a conversion, then. You can't imagine Richard Dawkins doing that: "The God Delusion might be the title of my book but I have great sympathy for the deluded." Is that what Nick Clegg was telling us?

No he wasn't. He was moving to check the fall-out among the devout who might think that not sharing their belief in God meant he was in some way less qualified as a leader than they would like. Where does he stand on faith schools, for example? Would he like to see religion taken out of education and restored to the private sphere?

Clegg is married to a Catholic and committed to bringing up his children as Catholics. So presumably their mother tends their spiritual life while their father worries about maths and geography. What's more, he went to Westminster School whose place of worship happens to be one of the country's most renowned abbey churches. So he has clearly been exposed to anthems and ecclesiastical finery, soaring Gothic architecture and the Church of England liturgy. Set against such a background, his confession to not believing in God suggests a resolute honesty that does him credit. But will it damage his politics?

Neil Kinnock was the last candidate for prime ministerial office to deny the existence of God. It was seen at the time not to have played well with the electorate. But that was years ago, and the country is now more forthright and secure in its secular outlook. We have moved as a nation to being less religious. Empty churches, full shops is now the character of a British Sunday. One only has to notice the overwhelming prevalence of silly reindeer songs over genuine Christmas carols at festive occasions to realise the game is over for a serious national consensus about what Christmas is about.

But then there was Tony Blair, probably the most genuinely religious prime minister since Gladstone. He was clearly embarrassed to speak of it : "You talk about it in our political system and people think you're a nutter." But along with George Bush he showed a conviction in the rightness of his own decisions that would not yield to argument, pressure or the combined advice of military leaders, intelligence services, and more than a million people marching in protest on the streets.

George Bush has often made reference to his conversations with God, and one must imagine that in the watches of the night Blair, too, sought guidance from a supernatural being. Christians believe that God did and can intervene in human history and change it. People in crisis turn to prayer and trust their God to help them directly or at least guide them to the right answer.

Thus a devout leader will put the destiny of his people in the hands of a supernatural force in which a majority of them may not believe. If, like me, you believe that prayer is an internalised form of contemplation rather than an appeal to a remote and powerful deity, you will believe that Tony Blair was merely grappling with his conscience. And whether he calls it God or not might not matter. Except that it obviously matters to him.

For a Christian leader to take his country to war is a serious matter. He must believe he will be answerable at the Day of Judgement for decisions that have resulted in so much death and suffering. Blair will have to make the case to his God that the invasion of Iraq was a just war and all that about loving your enemies was so much celestial fluff.

The justification of the just war has been argued about and developed in Christian theology by such heavyweights as Augustine and Aquinas, and the debate goes on today. It would be good to hear a Christian appraisal of recent Middle East conflicts in those terms. Nick Clegg, of course, will have no such religious fall-back position. He'll simply have to make up his own mind.

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1. Comment #101902 by Rtambree on December 21, 2007 at 6:02 am

>"Blair will have to make the case to his God that the invasion of Iraq was a just war and all that about loving your enemies was so much celestial fluff."

There are times one almost wishes there was a God, just so He could punish the evil done in His name, and by His followers, because warmongers such as Cheney, Rumsfeld and Blair only seem to get rewarded here on Earth.


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2. Comment #101904 by AllanW on December 21, 2007 at 6:15 am

 avatarA quite lovely piece; not surprising from Joan Bakewell. Concise, quite pointed and covering the ground well if a little shallowly. I'd have liked a little more on Blairs answerability; personally to his God maybe but why is it acceptable as leader of the country that he ignore his earthly advisers in preference to his religious conviction?

Overall though, very welcome.

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3. Comment #101905 by Vaal on December 21, 2007 at 6:17 am

 avatarI'm worried about journalists asking politicians if they believe in God, as if they are not to be trusted if they don't. I can't recall journalists in the UK asking this before?

I wonder when we shall be asked if we believe in God at job interviews? That will be a worrying trend, although I can't conceive of it occurring here, without being ridiculed. Has anyone experienced that in America?

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4. Comment #101911 by joeyoap on December 21, 2007 at 6:32 am

Well I think being asked if you believe in god may be a relevant question if your interview is for archbishop of canterbury.

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5. Comment #101912 by Matt7895 on December 21, 2007 at 6:35 am

 avatar
1. Comment #101902 by Rtambree on December 21, 2007 at 6:02 am

There are times one almost wishes there was a God, just so He could punish the evil done in His name, and by His followers, because warmongers such as Cheney, Rumsfeld and Blair only seem to get rewarded here on Earth.


Sigh....

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6. Comment #101914 by annabanana on December 21, 2007 at 6:43 am

 avatarEdit- I was replying to Vaal, and forgot to say so...I don't think I had enough Red Bull this morning...

Even though there are a lot of religious nuts floating around here in the states, I'm pretty sure that would be considered a potentially discriminatory question, and thus illegal...

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7. Comment #101935 by Vaal on December 21, 2007 at 8:03 am

 avatarJoeyoap

Does the archbishop of Canterbury believe in God? He doesn't seem to believe in the virgin birth.
I actually wonder if the pope believes in God, after all, isn't he supposed to communicate with him/her? Like Mother Teresa, he must be wondering at the silence..

Annabanana

Isn't there a case in the States at the moment, where an atheist is suing the military over Christian fundamentalist indoctrination. I have also read articles of people who have lost their jobs, or been hounded out of their jobs, because of not joining in prayers, or admitting to being an atheist. Of course, that may be litigation for the sake of it?

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8. Comment #101936 by BNCbright on December 21, 2007 at 8:05 am

 avatar"If, like me, you believe that prayer is an internalised form of contemplation rather than an appeal to a remote and powerful deity, you will believe that Tony Blair was merely grappling with his conscience. "

I would call 'an internalised form of contemplation' (as opposed to the externalised form?!) a rather long-winded way of saying 'thinking'. Praying is, by definition, the latter. If we let the religious, religious sympathisers and others discreetly warp and mould what we understand by language to suit their own ends then it becomes impossible to pin them down in an argument.

It is fine if political leaders 'think' or 'grapple with their conscience' - indeed, it should be encouraged (!). 'Praying' or 'talking' to your imaginary friend' is bonkers and we should hope that poltical leaders do not do this, at least when it comes to making important decisions. I can't even bring myself to say 'it's fine if they do it in their own time,' when it comes to politicians - because if they are so deranged that they consider this sort of behaviour helpful/acceptable then they are not fit to be political leaders.

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9. Comment #101938 by BNCbright on December 21, 2007 at 8:11 am

 avatarOne other thing -

What does it mean to say that Clegg is 'committed to bringing up his children as Catholics'? I presume that he thinks that this will be something that most people will consider endearing or sensible. If you think about it, though, it seems downright bizzare. He's committed to his children growing up to hold certain beliefs which govern their behaviour in a certain way, even though he, himself thinks that the whole philosophy is false. How can you be COMMITTED to that? You, at worst, might be indifferent - but committed?

I cannot square this other than seeing him as being weak-willed, either with reference to his wife, or to the electorate.

Sorry Nick, but your simple statement of 'atheism' is not enough to gain my support.

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10. Comment #101953 by Ole on December 21, 2007 at 9:02 am

 avatarReligion and politic what a pair!

You don't have to be Freud to see why Akhenaten (as the pioneer of a monotheistic religion that later became Judaism) saw the benefit of having one primary deity.

Much easier to control than having many rivaling deities.

When Constantine realised this fact, he held a meeting in Nicea in 325. The rest is histroy ;-)

The Viking kings that removed Odin and Thor and placed Jesus on the Valhalla throne, also gained better political control.
Luckily they never managed to remove the Yule winterfest.

God Jul !

Ole

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11. Comment #101959 by SharonMcT on December 21, 2007 at 9:11 am

 avatarBNCbright:

Maybe Clegg is at the beginning stages of his unbelief. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. There was a time when I thought that raising children in the catholic faith was only mildly harmful. (Most of the people I know that were raised in the catholic church are now at least diests or agnostics if not outright atheists. Perhaps Clegg is of the mind that a catholic education is the quickest line to atheism.) I have changed my position on that over the years, but it did take some time and a lot more investigation on my part to come to that conclusion.

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12. Comment #101960 by BNCbright on December 21, 2007 at 9:20 am

 avatarSharon,

Perhaps he is, but I still find his use of the word 'committed' somewhat odd.

My perception of Catholicism is slightly different from yours - I've never been a believer myself, but I have some close friends, family friends and so on who are either still practicing Catholics or still have some very strange hang-ups about sex, masturbation, sinning and so on, even since they have stopped practicing. I don't think, therefore, that it's the fastest route to unbelief going (although I'm pleased it worked for you). It's certainly not as quick as exposing children to a sceptical and atheistic way of thinking from an early age. Armed with these tools, they're far more likely to see through the veil of religious dogma far more quickly.

BNC

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13. Comment #101963 by SharonMcT on December 21, 2007 at 9:32 am

 avatarBNCbright:

Yes, I think committed is strong, for sure, and I agree with you totally about critical thinking being a much better tool for children's education. I was not raised catholic (sorry if I made it sound like this is how it worked for me). I only meant that I did not always see catholic schools as terribly harmful. I am from Canada where a catholic education is a protected right and therefore, growing up, you either went to public school or separate (catholic) school. I had a lot of friends that went to catholic school. For most of them, the religion did not stick. In the last few years, however, I have been leaning more to the conclusion that public funding of catholic schools should really be stopped (as well for all faith-based schools).

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14. Comment #101965 by kevlaw on December 21, 2007 at 9:44 am

> sex, masturbation, sinning and so on, even since they have stopped practicing

It wasn't clear to me which set of things they had stopped practicing. The sex, masturbation, sinning etc? Or the Catholicking.

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15. Comment #101970 by perkyjay on December 21, 2007 at 10:09 am

BNCBright: You shouldn't be so hard on Clegg. Three of my five sons, all firm atheists, are or have been married to catholics, and all have had children. Their children are now adults and, happily, are atheists. During their childhood they attended catholic schools, but once that was over they learned sense, with obvious results. Give Clegg's children a little time to make up their own minds !

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16. Comment #101976 by Mr DArcy on December 21, 2007 at 10:31 am

 avatarThe Jesuits used to claim, maybe they still do: "give us a child until he is 7 and he will be a Catholic for life", or words to that effect. In Clegg's case, maybe to keep in with his wife, he goes through the motions, like Dawkins singing carols. If he takes any care in the upbringing of his kids, his non belief is sure to rub off on them, even if it only gets to the questioning stage.

In my own case, I'm lucky that my father managed to throw off his Catholicism because he lost his temper with the priest that told him he couldn't read the novels of Alexandre Dumas and threw my father's book accross the room. My father's reaction was to to tell the priest: "No bloody priest is going to tell me what I can read!"

So I'm lucky. No superstition in my upbringing, but I still have a particular dislike of the Catholic church, as it turns out nothing to do with my father, but because of its arrogant and authoritarian manner.

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17. Comment #101988 by SurfDude on December 21, 2007 at 10:50 am

 avatar4. Comment #101911 by joeyoap on December 21, 2007 at 6:32 am
Well I think being asked if you believe in god may be a relevant question if your interview is for archbishop of canterbury.
Are you entirely sure about this?

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18. Comment #101992 by notsobad on December 21, 2007 at 11:06 am

 avatarHorrible article

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19. Comment #102077 by WSteG on December 21, 2007 at 2:16 pm

 avatarperkyjay says:

Give Clegg's children a little time to make up their own minds !

How can they do that? They're being brought up Catholic.

Clegg is just another opportunist politician saying, in his 'clarification', what he thinks is ingratiating rather than what he means (which he accidentally let slip when asked the question). He knows that it will take a miracle to get a rationalist politician elected to the highest office in the land in the UK or (even more so) the US. But it's true that unprincipled journalists shouldn't be asking questions like that or the next one (which Clegg ducked): "have you ever taken drugs?" Where is this going? "Have you ever broken the law?" "Have you ever cheated on your partner?" "Have you ever had a same sex experience?" "How big is your willie?" ...

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20. Comment #102086 by whig on December 21, 2007 at 2:28 pm

But, WSteG, how did his clarification make him any less of a rationalist, except to clarify the extent to which they have agreed such things between himself and his wife. And I have no problem with journalists asking such questions, I would rather know and, to an extent at least, make my decision with this information.

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21. Comment #102087 by Radesq on December 21, 2007 at 2:30 pm

 avatar10 inches whig

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22. Comment #102124 by WSteG on December 21, 2007 at 3:56 pm

 avatarRadesq's rebuff is so exquisite, it hardly requires further comment. But ... there's a thread elsewhere on this site pursuing the not entirely respectable question of whether Prof Dawkins' wife is a rationalist. The question of your partner's positions is one thing, how you bring up your offspring quite another. Why has Clegg ceded his children's intellectual and indeed emotional development to his wife? Because he is so busy being an ambitious politician? Because Catholicism is so much better at annexing territory than whatever position he occupies (agnosticism or can't-be-bothered atheism or intellectually rigorous rationalism)?

Meanwhile, at the risk of derailing: why do you want to know personal stuff about your MP? If she smoked dope in her youth, are you going to withhold your support, even though you agree with her on most of her policies? Do you not think even politicians deserve to keep some aspects of their lives to themselves? Of course if a candidate parades his missus and beaming kids in his campaign literature, his employment of a mistress or rent boy is a legitimate target for the press. But I'd rather have a political leader who prosecuted enlightened policies with vigour while being a flawed character than a bumbling reactionary who leads a blameless life.

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23. Comment #102126 by mmurray on December 21, 2007 at 4:00 pm

 avatarHave a look at the Clegg thread

http://richarddawkins.net/article,2047,Clegg-does-not-believe-in-God,BBC

if you are interested in why he is bringing up his children catholic. In the past the catholic church has always made it a condition of a non-catholic marrying a catholic in the catholic church that the non-catholic agree to raising the children as catholics. Of course they can't stop the couple marrying but if the marriage is not in a catholic church the catholic partner is living in mortal sin and will burn in hell for all eternity etc.

I couldn't guarantee that this is still the case but the catholic church tends to change its rules only slowly.

For those of you who are about to say that going to a catholic school does no harm remember he is bringing them up as catholics -- not the same as going to a catholic school.

Michael

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24. Comment #102128 by black wolf on December 21, 2007 at 4:04 pm

 avatar
... a bumbling reactionary who leads a blameless life.


They actually exist? Wow, I thought they were a matter of faith.

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25. Comment #102170 by Titchfield on December 21, 2007 at 11:17 pm

Neil Kinnock didn't play badly with the electorate because he was an atheist. He was just an annoying twat with ridiculous ideas.

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26. Comment #102180 by flying goose on December 22, 2007 at 12:38 am

 avatarA politician being asked if he believes in God...

Perhaps this is the Dawkins effect. Here we all were in secular religious compromise, religion gradualy dying, secularism a practicle reality, then all the books and now the questions to Nick Clegg. I am reminded of the move to ban fox hunting, there it was a dying money starved activity, dead within a generation, and the government gave it new life. Be careful what you wish for.

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27. Comment #102196 by WSteG on December 22, 2007 at 1:41 am

 avatarflying goose has usefully crapped on us all from a great height. He/she/it is absolutely on the money (sorry about the promiscuity with metaphor) but unfortunately the genie is now out of the box (ditto). I withdraw my earlier objection about asking politicians about the god thing. Of course it's unusually germane and it's a very different kind of question from asking about dope-smoking, same-sex experiences etc. The more resonant point fg has made is illustrated all over this site: the supernaturalists are inevitably fighting back (see for instance the comments on fleas and their proliferation). I'm girding up to open a thread about what we do about radical Islam (if there isn't one here already).

Oh, and no, I'm sure it wasn't his view on The Delusion that cost Kinnock his ticket to Downing Street. You can never overstate the (rarely publicly expressed) turn-off that being Welsh is in the vastly larger electoral area of England.

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28. Comment #102228 by Roy_H on December 22, 2007 at 4:49 am

On the other hand, I see Teflon Tony has now become a fully fledged Roman Catholic.

That news reminded me of this beautiful spoof that was done just before the 2005 election.
"I have had a higher calling"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpqlgDbiK_w

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