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Saturday, December 22, 2007 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Bible bashing dying out in Kansas

by BBC News

Thanks to Kevin Manley for the link.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7154551.stm

image descriptionThere is an American expression for something that is utterly obvious but not, for some reason, noticed.

"Hiding in plain sight", the Americans call it, and the expression came to my mind as I sat in Kansas City airport waiting for an ice storm to pass.

Hiding in plain sight in this state is a revolution in American Christendom, a change of heart that could see American Protestant churches looking increasingly like their European equivalents.

The state of Kansas gets a bad press. It is huge and empty and mostly flat.

In the summer it is uncomfortably hot and prone to tornadoes. In the winter it can be bitterly cold.

Its big cities are not very big and rather grey. It is not in the culinary avant garde.

In the airport cafe they have introduced nutritional advice next to their meals: the fresh strawberries are described as containing no trans-fats - which is a relief, I suppose - but only in Kansas could it be a surprise.

Kansas has also long been home to religious revivals and eccentric preachers, a few of them deeply wacky, to put it mildly.

Creationists, for instance, keep up a constant low-level guerrilla war in this state and, if that is insufficiently odd for you, try going to Topeka to see the Reverend Fred Phelps and his flock at the Westboro Baptist Church.

'God's punishment'

They entertain themselves by turning up at public events with placards saying: "God hates gays".

image descriptionTheir campaign against homosexuals came to national prominence when they protested (and this really did happen) at the funerals of soldiers who had been killed in Iraq.

The sexual orientation of the individual soldiers was not the issue.

According to the church, all Americans who die there are part of a punishment God is visiting on the United States because of his profound dislike of homosexuality in this country.

The point is that Pastor Phelps and his followers are not much liked by anyone inside or outside Kansas. The "burning at the stake" wing of America's Christian churches - the wing that stresses vengeance over love - is in trouble.

The gentle, Nativity-scene crowd are the ones on the up.

Mr Phelps still grabs horrified attention from foreigners and Americans alike but most religious Kansans (and that means most Kansans) are becoming steadily less aggressive: not less religious but less intolerant.

Opinion polls suggest that younger evangelical Christians are falling out of love with the "big causes" their churches have championed in recent years, in particular with opposing abortion and supporting the Iraq war.

Fire and brimstone

This change is nowhere clearer than in Wichita in southern Kansas.

Map of Kansas

The Reverend Terry Fox is a man you would have considered until recently to be a typical Wichita preacher: a fire and brimstone merchant.

His sermon, delivered in staccato bursts, with heavy breathing for effect, concentrates on sin, in particular the sin of murdering babies in the womb.

"I am proud to be called the religious right," he blasts. "I am religious and I am right!"

On the day I met him there was "good news": hundreds of thousands of foreigners had just been converted to Christianity including many Muslims.

You would expect the Rev Fox in God-fearing Kansas, to be preaching in a mega-church, an establishment big enough to cope with the crowds.

And until recently he was: the Immanuel Baptist Church near the centre of town was his.

It was easily spotted because of the huge, tubular, white cross, 100ft (30 metres) high and heated from the inside so that it does not freeze and topple over.

But the Rev Fox's cross is all that is left of his ministry at the old place.

He tells me it was time to move on but most locals think he was thrown out for being too dogmatic, too extreme, even in Wichita.

Major change

To see Rev Fox in action, I had to go to the Best Western hotel out among the tattier motels and gas stations on the far outskirts of town.

They clear a central atrium for him, they turn down the muzak, they put away the tinselly plastic Christmas trees, and several hundred turn up for a cheerful haranguing.

Rev Fox is not about to be run out of town but he is metaphorically, as well as literally, on the outskirts now.

His hatred of abortion, his contempt for gay rights, his support for the Iraq war have all led him to his current predicament.

At his old church, the new pastor tells me sniffily that he has never had the pleasure of meeting Rev Fox.

The concerns of his ministry are, he said, human rights and the environment.

Golly, this is a big change.

I have come to town to speak to these people about whether they still support the Republican Party but that is a minor issue, it seems to me, compared with the much bigger question of how they still support God.

Hidden in plain sight this Christmas, is the softening of evangelical America.

A million Kansans will be taking their Bibles to church in the coming week but they will not be bashing them.


Comments 1 - 27 of 27 |

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1. Comment #102329 by Rtambree on December 22, 2007 at 11:17 am

Opinion polls suggest that younger evangelical Christians are falling out of love with the "big causes" their churches have championed in recent years, in particular with opposing abortion and supporting the Iraq war.

No longer opposing abortion?! Watch God hit them with a fresh barrage of indiscriminately targeted tornadoes next year as punishment.

Other Comments by Rtambree

2. Comment #102337 by Roger Stanyard on December 22, 2007 at 12:03 pm

 avatarThe BBC report does not surprise me at all. The Zeitgeist appears to be turning against the American fudamentalists and it is all of their own making. Once they had becoe utterly politicised and right wing, it was inevitable that much of America would begin to turn against them.

They are basically relics from the past fighting a lost cause. They made utter fools of themselves at the Kansas Kangaroo Court in 2005, the US press turned against them and the rest of the USA increasingly perceived Kansas as peopled by a bunch of redneck, dimwitted hayseeds.

There are a lot of people in Kansas, rightly, don't like such public relations and are consequntly questionig just what the fundamentalists are.

Well, the fundamentalists now have another big problem. The powers that be in the Republican party basically think they are bonkers and increasingly an electorial liability. Moreover, the Republicans look set to take a massive bashing in next year's presidential election and could be out of the Oval Office for years.

Yet the grass roots fundamentalists are so dim that they don't seem to grasp that their (increasingly) favourite candidate for President, Mike Huckabee, is, himself, a massive potential liability for the Republicans. He hasn't a cat in hell's chance of ever being elected President.

My bet is that the Republicans will have to ditch their bogus religiosity and turn back into being a party of political pragmatism. Otherwise, as The Economist has pointed out, the party will no longer be a national party but one of the Bible Belt and Deep South and out of office for ever.

Other Comments by Roger Stanyard

3. Comment #102346 by devolve on December 22, 2007 at 12:40 pm

 avatarPhelps and his crew may be in their waning days, but Phelps is "fringe" even by extreme fundamentalist Christian standards.

I would like to point out, especially to interested observers outside the US, that Fred Phelps' cult has very little to do with American religious attitude. As heinous as his cartoonish group of hate-mongers may be, in some ways the more "mainstream" religious believers are more insidious. The Fred Phelpses of the land almost certainly will never be elected to any public office. I do not believe for a minute that Mike Huckabee (for example) would ever join a protest carrying a sign reading, "God hates fags", but I do believe he would support public policies that would be anti-science, anti-gay, and anti-liberty based solely on religious conviction. There are tens of millions of Americans who would gleefully support this, as well.

I don't think there's much evidence at all to suggest that 'Bible bashing' is dying out in Kansas, or anywhere else in the US, for that matter.

Other Comments by devolve

4. Comment #102347 by markg on December 22, 2007 at 12:44 pm

 avatarAt first I took this as bad news in a different way - bible bashing dying out. In the states we call them bible thumpers. Bashing the bible would be saying something negative. Then I realized this must be a British expression.

Other Comments by markg

5. Comment #102349 by Mr DArcy on December 22, 2007 at 12:46 pm

 avatarI look at life from the materialist viewpoint,(philosophical meaning), and from this viewpoint I see the various religions of the world as reflections of the societies that give rise to them. The "happy hunting ground" heaven of the native north Americans differs greatly from the "harps and angels" version of European Christianity, as that in turn differs from the various other "heavens" around the world. The Norse Valhalla is reserved for warriors who fell in battle, and has a doorway wide enough to accommodate 800 shoulder to shoulder.

Catholicism in South America is very different from its European HQ's version.

If the Bible bashing Christians of Kansas are mellowing a bit, it only reflects the changes going on in that part of the world. Reality, both social and natural, will always assert itself whatever perceived mysticism is generally accepted.

Other Comments by Mr DArcy

6. Comment #102357 by Corylus on December 22, 2007 at 1:08 pm

 avatarMarkg
Bashing the bible would be saying something negative. Then I realized this must be a British expression.
Yep. 'Biblebashing' and 'biblethumping' are pretty much the same terms.

Another britishism to watch out for is 'godbothering'. This describes people who not only annoy those around them, but those who God (were he to exist) would also consider an irritant.

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7. Comment #102364 by Luthien on December 22, 2007 at 1:28 pm

 avatar
Another britishism to watch out for is 'godbothering'.


That must mean my hobby of picking on "street preachers" / leafleters is called "godbothererbothering" :-P

Seriously though, there is a tipping point for these things that passes unnoticed, kind of like the Berlin Wall thing, and next thing you know the world is so much better for people. All we have to do is keep making people think!

Other Comments by Luthien

8. Comment #102366 by AllanW on December 22, 2007 at 1:35 pm

 avatarRe; #102357

You're right but I always understood the term to have a nuance as far as God was concerned that they were constantly talking to Him hence 'bothering' Him when he has other things to do ...

Other Comments by AllanW

9. Comment #102384 by quicksilver on December 22, 2007 at 2:55 pm

 avatarPerhaps when Obama visits he won't feel compelled to bring out that converted gay fellow who thanks Jesus-in front of crowds- for saving him from being gay.

Other Comments by quicksilver

10. Comment #102387 by notsobad on December 22, 2007 at 3:05 pm

 avatarAccording to the Bible, god indeed hates homosexuals. Funny, because he is also supposed to have created them.

Other Comments by notsobad

11. Comment #102394 by rod-the-farmer on December 22, 2007 at 3:24 pm

 avatar"Godbothering" reminds me of a standup comic I saw on TV recently. He did an impression of God...."Now let's see, I will make THIS galaxy rotate clockwise, and THAT star go supernova...(interruption)...What ? Oh, sure, enjoy your meal".

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

12. Comment #102395 by automath on December 22, 2007 at 3:31 pm

 avatarDoes Phelps remind any one else of the preacher from Poltergeist?

It's always nice to be reminded of what religion does to people.

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13. Comment #102422 by Naughty Mr Crocodile on December 22, 2007 at 5:30 pm

Religion is fading away, bit by bit, until it becomes nothing more than an eccentric humanism

Yes, Biblebashing and Godbothering do mean the opposite of what you would expect, alas...

Other Comments by Naughty Mr Crocodile

14. Comment #102530 by Flagellant on December 23, 2007 at 6:19 am

 avatarTwo more Britishisms that are worth knowing about, for the avoidance of confusion: pissed = drunk ; pissed off = annoyed

Room for confusion among the cousins there. And then there's an American expression I came across again when reading about the lovely CBC lady who wanted to slap somebody - RD probably. Apparently she goes horseback riding. I wondered a bit about this; we in the UK go horse riding. Then, I realised that it's important for you Americans to distinguish yourselves from Bible-Bashers who, together with their other strange practices, probably ride on unusual parts of the horse...


Religion - an activity for consenting adults in private.

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15. Comment #102592 by Jayday on December 23, 2007 at 9:20 am

As an American, I don't feel as optimistic about a growing tolerance for gay rights, or that there is a massive retreat of the hell fire brand of religion here in the USA. Also, It is very hard to detect what the public's response will be at the voting booths in 2008. The fundamentalists are well organized politically. They have powerful connections with government. Every candidate is aware of their power. It is embarrassing to watch the candidates fall over them to get their votes. It would be political suicide not to be aware of their power. But it is still an ugly sight.

Although we pride ourselves as having free speech, in the USA free speech, the "message" is in the hands of powerful media conglomerates who can push whatever agenda they wish to. The idea of the "liberal press" is a joke. We are in a crisis of living in one of the most corrupt times since the inceptions of the USA. The government, the press, and the legal system have all been systematically taken over by right wing ultra conservative influences. And, to our dismay, the Democrats, who were once the champions of more progressive ideas, have laid down on the mat. They don't appear to have the spine or intelligence to fight the tide. They are a part of the corruption.

With the main stream press becoming more like FOX news, it is tough to really determine what will happen in the elections because we have no true sense of what the general public is thinking. So much of our news is slanted to the conservative right. So much more religious based programming is being introduced in media markets where we've never seen it before. It is common to see several Christian stations in North Carolina, but until the last few years, it was very unusual to see them in Southern California. Religious oriented programs in Southern California have begun to catch up to those found in the south. And, to play to the religious, even the National Geographic or Discovery Channels who at one time produced programs more about history, culture, science, and technology, are now offering religious topic programs like "In search of the arc" or some story related to Jesus. Religious topics are being passed off as history. In my mind, it is like giving Intelligent Design the same weight as Evolution. Most people probably don't see this. It is quite insidious.

I am happy to see that the "Pastor Phelps" brand of ministers are being marginalized. Let them all implode...But, we still have the Rick Warrens who may not be as openly intolerant, but are commanding just as much power in influencing their huge flock to Christianity. Warren's church has thousands of members. His book "A purpose Driven Life" has produced mega sales that have provided mega funds to build a much bigger worship center than he already has. The expansion is astounding.

There is a change in the zeitgeist. Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennett and Harris are doing important work that hopefully will continue to build momentum. However, most people in the USA have never even heard of these gentleman. Believers don't tend to tune into radio or TV programs where they may be briefly featured, and believers certainly don't pick up their books. Or if they do know about them, they see them as bad, wrong, or evil and stay away from them.

This blog is a outlet for those of us who feel isolated. Is the isolation a perception or is it real? Probably some of both. Until there is a change in the whole corrupt political system that has a domino effect on media business and the courts, we are going to stay manipulated, and most won't even realize how it affects their daily lives.

Other Comments by Jayday

16. Comment #102658 by Roger Stanyard on December 23, 2007 at 11:25 am

 avatarIt needs an encyclopedia of English English to understand the British use of the term "piss": Here are a few examples:

Piss = urine

Piss (as in to have a piss) = urinate/slash/point Percy at the porcelain/Dennis at the Doulton/splash one's boots)

Pissed = blotto, tired and emotional, Brahms and List, pissed as a newt, pie-eyed, legless

Pissed up = drunk

Pissed as a newt = seriously drunk

Pissed as a parrot = seriously drunk

Pissed as a fart –seriously drunk

Gnat's piss = weak, lousy beer

Tom cat's piss = what lousy peer tastes like

Piss head = a drunk/boozer

Piss-artist = comedian who likes his/her beer

Piss artist's paradise = University of Portsmouth

Piss-poor = damn dreadful

piss poor protoplasm = idiot

Piss down = to rain heavily

Piss up = a drinking session (as distinct from "I wouldn't piss up his arse if his kidneys were on fire.")

Piss up in a brewery = what idiots can't organise

Taking the piss = making fun of

Taking a piss = urinating

Pisser = loo/bogs/khazi

pisser = willie

Real pisser = bummer/bad news

Pissed off = annoyed

Piss off = go away/go stuff your head up a dead bear's bum

Piss some one off = annoy them

Piss it all up against the wall = waste one's money

Pissing in the wind = wasting one's time/effort

Scare the living piss out of = frighten

Pissing along = going fast

Piss-ant = worthless

Piston broke = drunk and out of money

Other Comments by Roger Stanyard

17. Comment #102662 by Radesq on December 23, 2007 at 11:29 am

 avatarRoger:
Tom cat's piss = what lousy peer tastes like


I'm not British but is this some sort of political commentary?

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18. Comment #102667 by Steve Zara on December 23, 2007 at 11:36 am

 avatar
Pissed = blotto, tired and emotional, Brahms and List, pissed as a newt, pie-eyed, legless


The same word can mean "annoyed". Like "Pissed off", but without the "off".

"I am really pissed" has two entirely different meanings. Indeed, both meanings can apply at the same time.

Confused? Welcome to England!

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19. Comment #102939 by irate_atheist on December 24, 2007 at 2:35 am

 avatarDamn. I hoped to read about Bible bashers dying out in Kanvas. I'd raise my glass to that.

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20. Comment #103249 by timeby on December 24, 2007 at 4:57 pm

I see, my dear Flagellant, by your comment "when reading about the lovely CBC lady who wanted to slap somebody" that some of you Brits are becoming nearly as geographically confused as my neighbours to the south. I understand that you have a broadcasting company called BBC for British Broadcasting Company. We, non Americans, have one designated CBC, The C does not stand for American.

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21. Comment #103255 by Radesq on December 24, 2007 at 5:48 pm

 avatarSteve Zara: I hate to do this because it's no longer has any chance of being funny (if it ever did) but if your were trying to help me out on the definition of pissed -- please reread my post 17 more carefully.

Just so this isn't totally off topic I would also point out that Bible bashing never dies out around here, but like a traveling road show it has to keep on moving before people catch on.

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22. Comment #103256 by Radesq on December 24, 2007 at 5:49 pm

 avatarSorry, I meant to say Dr. Steve Zara

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23. Comment #103263 by dragonfirematrix on December 24, 2007 at 7:45 pm

 avatarThe Kansas "intelligent design" freaks have nothing to offer but their zealous Christian fervor against the spirit and meaning of America.

Then again, it may be the Christian god, who is causing: "the summer it is uncomfortably hot and prone to tornadoes. In the winter it can be bitterly cold."

That said…

…Why would anyone follow a god who hurts his/her/its children?

Wayne (Forest, VA)

Other Comments by dragonfirematrix

24. Comment #103335 by STLstrike3 on December 25, 2007 at 7:47 am

 avatarIn fairness, it should be mentioned that Kansas City (at least, any area worth talking about) is mostly in Missouri. It's relative isolation from other urban centers (St. Louis being 255 miles to the east) makes it a refuge of sorts for those fleeing the conservative flocks of western Missouri, Oklahoma, Kansas and Nebraska.

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25. Comment #103368 by bluebird on December 25, 2007 at 9:59 am

 avatar
...concerns are human rights and the environment...
.

From our vantage point, this is true.
Bible-thumping is being replaced with 'religion-light'. Attract flies with honey approach.
********
OT, nice Arch avatar! Anyone visiting the Mid-West should check out the 'Gateway to the West'
http://www.nps.gov/jeff/

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26. Comment #103405 by grolaw on December 25, 2007 at 1:13 pm

Comment 25 shows the KC, MO Moorish-influenced city Plaza with the Christmas lights in place. Just off that Plaza is a Frank Lloyd Wright church - albeit that it is a Unitarian church. I'd bet quite a tidy sum that the majority of citizens don't realize Moorish = Muslim. I live here.

Comment 24 ascribes KC as a "refuge" from the fundies. That's true if you define a "refuge" to be where there are only 10-20 churches per square mile. Mega churches in the high-dollar suburbs are doing well - very, very well.

The primary industry, just across the state line (in Kansas) is INSURANCE. Yes, the industry that Michael Moore exposed in Sicko has a major hub in the Kansas City metropolitan area. Nice that the growth in immoral insurance correlates with increasing numbers of mega churches. Now, is there a causal link?

Other Comments by grolaw

27. Comment #106985 by merchickety on January 3, 2008 at 7:39 pm

 avatarI used to live in KCMO, I miss going to the plaza...


Anyways, I was just thinking, I think natural selection is taking place in the WBC. The youngest in the family have been taught not to date or have sex or get married because they hink the end is near and to do any of these things would be pointless and selfish (in their view) So eventually they're going to die out (hopefully)

At least, I think that's what they said in this documentary thing I saw about them. Not completely sure but I could be wrong...

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