1. Comment #102361 by Mister_X on December 22, 2007 at 1:15 pm

That was great. In five minutes, I was confused at first with Copeland, angry with Murdoch, then laughing at the end. Brilliant!

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2. Comment #102402 by Shane Williams on December 22, 2007 at 4:01 pm

Good stuff, I always laugh when I see those massive "healing sessions" on TV.

How exactly does all that money collection fuel miracles in our world? Assuming that actions without cause/explanation (miracles) are even possible?
By cause/explanation I mean the natural processes behind an occurance other than the exaggerated, supernatural, human view of its purpose.

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3. Comment #102410 by notsobad on December 22, 2007 at 4:32 pm

These people (professional Christians) profit because there is demand, to which I can say only:
"A fool and their money are soon parted."

The tax-free part pisses me off indeed though.

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4. Comment #102459 by Veronique on December 22, 2007 at 11:45 pm

I love Chaser so much!! They take the mickey every time, I am so glad that this motley crew are funded by our national broadcaster. The one thing Australia got right!!

Thank gravy for their irreverence. We may survive with these blokes in the chair.

Check out abc.net.au/tv/chaser/war and click on anything you like.

Have a terrific squidmas with Chaser.
V

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5. Comment #102462 by Veronique on December 23, 2007 at 12:06 am

They did a marvellous sketch on the Trojan Horse. That's worth a look. Hilarious. These guys are worth their weight in gold. Get them on a podcast.

I am telling you - you won't regret it. You will also learn about Australia and none of you know jack shit about us. Good value.

My best
V

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6. Comment #102463 by Diacanu on December 23, 2007 at 12:09 am

Veronique-

Australia and none of you know jack shit about us.

Of course I do.

I've seen all 3 Crocodile Dundees, Muriel's Wedding, and all 3 Mad Max's.

You all lip sync to Abba, then ride inside a kangaroo pouch throwing boomerangs while guys with giant mohawks try to steal your gasoline.

Oh, and your diet consists of vegemite sandwiches, and dunkaroos.

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7. Comment #102464 by Diacanu on December 23, 2007 at 12:21 am

Oh, and your president and vice president (for life) are Jocko Train and Yahoo Serious.

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8. Comment #102465 by Diacanu on December 23, 2007 at 12:23 am

Aren't I adorable?
:P

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9. Comment #102467 by Verylee on December 23, 2007 at 12:35 am

Diacanu....hello! How do you get articles to the site? there are a couple in the UK Times re Dawkins. Here is one http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article3086949.ece and here is the other!


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10. Comment #102483 by epeeist on December 23, 2007 at 2:05 am

Comment #102464 by Diacanu

Oh, and your president and vice president (for life) are Jocko Train and Yahoo Serious.

You missed out the crap lager.

Oh, and the sheep.

And the fact that they are all descendants of convicts ;-)

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11. Comment #102484 by Flagellant on December 23, 2007 at 2:07 am

Wasn't it the Chasers that almost got into a serious (Melbourne?) summit meeting in Oz a while ago? Unfortunately, they didn't get close enough to have a chat with George Bush.

It's one of the many, perpetual delights of Australia that, when you've finished with the incessant sunshine for the day, there's something like The Chasers to watch.

And Diacanu, if you haven't watched The Castle, you haven't seen one of the best Aussie films.

I can't keep the smile from my face because, in a few weeks, I'm off to Oz for a couple of months.



Religion - an activity for consenting adults in private, especially in Australia.

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12. Comment #102494 by Shigawire on December 23, 2007 at 2:45 am

Maaan that was just too many levels of "awful."
More proof that religious leaders are con-artists.
Only difference is, regular con-artists get caught, these guys get away with it, because they're "Christian" con-artists or whatever.

Oh My Goodness...
:D

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13. Comment #102501 by will young on December 23, 2007 at 3:24 am

And it's all TAX FREE!!

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14. Comment #102694 by Veronique on December 23, 2007 at 12:16 pm

8. Comment #102465 by Diacanu

Indeed you are!!!

Flagellant - good on you. And yes, Chaser got to within 100 yards of Bush's hotel before they were sprung at the APEC summit. Security was so severely embarrassed, hahaha, that four of the Chaser crew were charged. Haven't heard anything since though.

Epeeist - what about the rabbits? You forgot them. Millions and millions of them all from England. (well, sort of, a little time ago:-))

V

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15. Comment #102700 by Veronique on December 23, 2007 at 12:25 pm

9. Comment #102467 by Verylee

articles@richarddawkins.net

All the contact addresses are in the contact tab on the front page.

V

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16. Comment #102701 by Steve Zara on December 23, 2007 at 12:27 pm

I am telling you - you won't regret it. You will also learn about Australia and none of you know jack shit about us.

I was once a biologist. I know a lot about Australian flora and fauna. Everything is deadly, and I mean everything. Step outside your front door and you are pretty much doomed. The seas are filled with jellyfish that, if they don't kill you straight off, will make you wish you were dead because of the pain. If they don't get you the toxic octopuses and the sharks will. On land, there are the marsupials. Those that don't kill you by running full-speed in front of your car (roos, wombats) are some of the most fanged and agressive creatures on the planet. Then there are the snakes. And the spiders. Heck, the spiders are even out to get you in your house. Even the plants are seriously nasty, with a thousand species being toxic to livestock and humans.

I am amazed anyone manages to survive there.

(OK, I exaggerate. A little)

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17. Comment #102703 by Diacanu on December 23, 2007 at 12:29 pm

Jocko Train kicks all their asses.

Jocko is Australia's Superman on top of being President.

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18. Comment #102707 by Diacanu on December 23, 2007 at 12:38 pm

Ah, "Jocko Train", was his Energizer ad moniker.
Here we go.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_%22Jacko%22_Jackson

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19. Comment #102921 by Flagellant on December 24, 2007 at 12:04 am

I think Steve Zara has got Oz spot on. Perhaps I lead a charmed life because I've hit a wombat at night and done no damage to the animal, myself, or the car and I once brushed a spider off my neck only to find that it was a redback. So I never go out once I'm there – it's too dangerous. I get my sunshine from a sunbed ;-) As for the sea, lakes, and rivers, I never go for a swim, either. (Fishes fuck in them.)

Stories about the dangerous nature of Oz are put about by those who want to keep the place nice and select. I'm sure Veronique could tell us the actual fatalities from various fauna but the number's actually very low. IIRC, despite Australia's being home to several of the World's deadliest snakes, there've been no fatalities from them for quite a few years.

OK Veronique, about all this 'jackshit' business: have you read the Aussie Constitution? Have you seen the original Magna Carta in Canberra? I've done both and I have a copy of one - I can't remember which. Can you name just two mistakes – and there are quite a few – in Bill Bryson's otherwise excellent book Down Under?

Back on topic: it's interesting to see so many programmes now having a go at religion. Since Marcus Brigstocke's rant, Can the rest of us have our planet back: Click here, there have been many other digs/tilts in UK comedy programmes and there's a lovely cartoon in The Grauniad, today: Click here.

The zeitgeist is changing. Religion is never going to have it easy again. Faith is no longer universally accepted as beyond criticism. The gentle mockery of Dave Allen is being replaced with a more robust indignation. Hooray!



Religion – an activity for consenting adults in private.
[Links edited for style.]

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20. Comment #102924 by Verylee on December 24, 2007 at 12:45 am

Veronique, thank you! I never opened the contact tab!! I thought mebbe it was something to do with Carl Sagan or a portal to another dimension haha! Thanx again.

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21. Comment #102953 by Veronique on December 24, 2007 at 3:16 am

16. Comment #102701 by Steve Zara

Shit! You are right. I stepped outside my front door once and was accosted by spiders taking possession of the front porch. My God!! Then there was a blue tongued lizard wending his way across the pavers. I had put some toy plastic snakes around the fishes' habitat to deter Lord Heron and even those snakes frighten me.

My bedroom was full of scientific experiments that enjoined white-tailed house spiders making their home among the sheets.

I am terrified of swimming in Queensland and cast a wary eye over all large masses of sea-water. You are correct. It is deadly out there. And the wombats; you wouldn't believe the length, the strength and ripping capacity of their claws. Kangaroos by the millions and they damage your car. I am waiting for the insurance companies to render them into the Act of God clause.

I am the only person left in Australia and that's because I stay indoors!!

I am so glad you understand the travails of living in this benighted country. Whew. Someone who knows. I feel better.

And yes, I am exaggerating just a wee bit:-).

Best to you Steve
V

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22. Comment #102955 by Steve Zara on December 24, 2007 at 3:22 am

I am so glad you understand the travails of living in this benighted country. Whew. Someone who knows. I feel better.

Well, I thought I had better research all this. My partner is going on holiday there in february. He needs to know what to deal with!

I hear the the food and the people make up for the dangers...

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23. Comment #102957 by Philip1978 on December 24, 2007 at 3:31 am

Steve + V

My only advice for folk travelling to Oz is to NEVER go in the Woolshed Pub in Cairns when you have something important to do the next day like catch a plane or in my case go scuba diving :)

I know many people who knew they had to do something the next day but thought "a couple of beers" would go down well

I went there, got very drunk, got to bed at 4 to wake up at half 6 to catch the minibus. I remember filling out the forms and one of the questions was "have you had any alcohol in the last 24 hours? well no, last 2 hours hehehe! (I tell you what that scuba tank cured my hangover, brilliant stuff!)

I loved OZ, tis a beautiful country with some mad people there!

I love this video too, very funny!

Philip

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24. Comment #102958 by Vaal on December 24, 2007 at 3:34 am

Steve

Your partner will love Australia. Don't know anyone who has been there and not liked it. Yep, scariest moment of my life was being circled by a 12 foot Tiger shark when diving in the coral sea, but man, what a thrill when I got to the surface. Watch those red back spiders too!

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25. Comment #102959 by Veronique on December 24, 2007 at 3:40 am

19. Comment #102921 by Flagellant

Now listen here, Flag. Don't get so carried away. I am pleased the redback didn't get you, but watch out for the Sydney Funnel Web. Are you going to Sydney – that waste land of an international city? These spiders are virulent. They kill unwary humans (and everything else they deem as potential food). Mind you they must sigh when they pull down a human – more food that the whole of the Funnel Web population could consume in a generation. Not good at logical thought the old Funnel Webs. Very reactive!!

Check out Article 116 of our Constitution – that states there IS separation of church and state, although that didn't stop Howard and Costello introducing religiously based legislation in their 11 years in office.

I can't recall the couple of errors in Bryson. I just laughed all the way through it. It was a terrific book about Australia. I loved 'the swim that needed no towel'. I think he got Holt's place of demise wrong. I am not sure now. And, in any case he was having the old Bryson dig. He does it well!!

The zeitgeist is changing. Religion is never going to have it easy again. Faith is no longer universally accepted as beyond criticism. The gentle mockery of Dave Allen is being replaced with a more robust indignation. Hooray!

I couldn't agree more!! I loved Brigstocke's rant. Music to my heart!!

Australia is actually a very dangerous place in terms of deadly fauna. But few die really. Ticks are a big problem for humans and other mammals. The abreaction to tick bites can be very dangerous (respiratory failure is the most common). The cane toads have wiped out a large proportion of the red and yellow bellied black snakes which means we have a larger number of browns and king browns and they are deadly.

Contact me when you come out here. Would love to meet you, if possible.
V

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26. Comment #102962 by Veronique on December 24, 2007 at 3:52 am

22. Comment #102955 by Steve Zara

'My partner' sounds so dislocated!! What's his name? Where is he coming to? Ask him to get in touch! I would be delighted to meet him if possible.

Food? Melbourne; an urbane and cultured city, if a little cliquey. A great place!! The people are much the same as what you know of me over the past year on this site. I like to think of myself as a pretty normal Aussie, just not religious. And there aren't that many religious types in this old penal colony (well, why would there be?). Hi to Henri!! Still there Henri?

We are a generous lot and take the mickey as soon as buy you a beer.

We are really lovely, promise.
V

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27. Comment #102963 by Veronique on December 24, 2007 at 3:56 am

23. Comment #102957 by Philip1978

Did you scuba in Cairns?? What a great place. Did you know that Aussies consume just slightly less beer than the Germans? We're rough and tough, baby!!

I am glad you have been here. It is a great place. But I am coming to your neck of the woods next year. That will be interesting!!
V

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28. Comment #102966 by Steve Zara on December 24, 2007 at 4:28 am

'My partner' sounds so dislocated!!

I know, but "Civil Partner" sounds so odd, rather like some co-worker in a legal firm, and "Husband"... well, that isn't technically true, although it is legally equivalent.

What's his name? Where is he coming to? Ask him to get in touch! I would be delighted to meet him if possible.

That is very sweet of you.

Jon, and (I think) Sidney. It is fulfilling a long-held ambition to visit Australian to mark a certain significant birthday.

I would have gone too, but I have a problem getting into metal tubes that are suspended thousands of feet in the air. I just don't have enough faith.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

29. Comment #102969 by Veronique on December 24, 2007 at 4:42 am

28. Comment #102966 by Steve Zara

Oh Steve, you lovely bloke:-). Tell Jon to contact me. I am about 800 miles north of Sydney. You can always PM me. I have to go to Sydney anyway to meet a bloke at NSW Uni who is committed to introducing Critical Thinking into the NSW public school curriculum. I can tie that visit in with your Jon's visit to Sydney.

That would be marvellous. In any case I would love to meet you when I travel north of the old equator to England next June. I will seek you out regardless!! Be warned!
V

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30. Comment #102972 by Veronique on December 24, 2007 at 4:59 am

Steve – think about how these metal tubes actually maintain their height and velocity. I would have more trouble crossing a busy metal-dominated moving set of vehicles on a grounded set of macadam roads. And I know that the actual statistics would back me up. So there!! My fearful friend.

I think the problem with this fear of getting into a flying machine has to do with the potential prospect of ALL passengers plunging to their deaths should something go wrong. It happens in one fell swoop, as it were. The road deaths happen over a different set of parameters.

Be that as it may, my dear, I will seek you out on the ground of England in June 2008. And I will have flown to you. So put that in your pipe and smoke it!!!! Are you prepared to meet me?? Won't it be wonderful?
V

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31. Comment #102974 by irate_atheist on December 24, 2007 at 5:03 am

28. Comment #102966 by Steve Zara -

I would have gone too, but I have a problem getting into metal tubes that are suspended thousands of feet in the air. I just don't have enough faith.

Now, if you'd done a degree in Aeronautical Engineering, you'd know how it all works and not rely on 'faith'. Has anyone got a spare wind-tunnel so I can do a practical demo or two for Steve?

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32. Comment #102978 by Veronique on December 24, 2007 at 5:15 am

31. Comment #102974 by irate_atheist

I have thoroughly enjoyed all your comments!! and this one is no different!!

I keep my (non-spare) wind tunnel out the back after the cat cage. I am prepared to accomomdate all tests to reduce 'faith' to the whistle that it actually is. You are more than welcome to utilise this special wind tunnel that I built to work out how sky divers were able to 'fly' through the air. It works!!
V

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33. Comment #103154 by Diacanu on December 24, 2007 at 11:21 am

Steve Zara-

I know, but "Civil Partner" sounds so odd, rather like some co-worker in a legal firm, and "Husband"... well, that isn't technically true, although it is legally equivalent.

Meh, all the PC terms sound so cold.

Why not call him your little snuggle muffin?
Come on, that's adorable.
Nothin' cold about that.
And think how it'll make the 'phobes squirm.

:P

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34. Comment #103156 by Steve Zara on December 24, 2007 at 11:23 am

Why not call him your little snuggle muffin?

*cough* *splutter*

I say sir! We are not having any of that dirty talk around here!

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35. Comment #103160 by Steve Zara on December 24, 2007 at 11:26 am

Now, if you'd done a degree in Aeronautical Engineering, you'd know how it all works and not rely on 'faith'.

My mind knows how it works, and that it works. My knees don't though. They shake when I try and walk through the cabin door.

Are you prepared to meet me?? Won't it be wonderful?

A UK meet up of people should definitely be arranged. It could be a lot of fun.

Edit: OK, so I missed out a 't' in the last sentence. Hey, we all make spelling mistakes. Just behave, you lot!

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36. Comment #103163 by BAEOZ on December 24, 2007 at 11:31 am

I could be a lot of fun.

As opposed to you not wanting to be fun or something more saucy?
:)

Sorry Steve. But you're just such a thoughtful, reserved, well written poster here on the site. You are screaming out to have the mickey gently taken. Please forgive me. I'm going to flagellate myself with an Inland Taipan that's been dating a Blue-ringed octopus. :)


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37. Comment #103259 by Tzsak on December 24, 2007 at 6:23 pm

This is one of my favourite Chasers skits, pure gold.

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38. Comment #103281 by cp21yos on December 24, 2007 at 11:23 pm

Those that don't kill you by running full-speed in front of your car (roos, wombats)

You crack me up - the top speed of a wombat is about 5 km/hour and they have a hard time climbing up trees, rocks, small ledges over fallen logs... mind you they're kinda like bears if they find you asleep in you tent at night... when you're on the ground at their level... not a pretty sight...

lol - happy holidays people

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39. Comment #103297 by Flagellant on December 25, 2007 at 2:21 am

Mainly for Veronique and other Aussies:

Para 116 of the Aussie Constitution with respect to Church & State is based on the similar US First Amendment. It's actually weaker than the US version in that it doesn't prohibit individual states of the Commonwealth of Oz from going all religious… Queensland is strange enough as it is… I mean, they were the last state, despite the name, to decriminalise gays, and they gave you Pauline Hanson.

Two errors in Bryson: On p. 107 of Down Under, (London: Doubleday, 2000) Bryson says that the seats in the Australian Senate are '…in a restful ochre tone.' Actually, they're dusky or pastel pink. Further, the seats in the House are pastel green, giving each chamber pale versions of those in the UK parliament.

He also lists the giant koala as being at Moyston (p. 138). Actually, it's at Dadswell Bridge.

One further snide comment: Our 'Strictly Come Dancing' ('Dancing with the stars' in Oz) has just finished over here. It brought to mind that, a few years ago, Pauline Hanson got to the Aussie final ;-)

Finally, when the Aussie version of 'What not to wear' was launched, they asked for nominees for people whose dress-sense was 'a little lacking'. I nominated 'everyone in Australia'. Cheeky but spot on, eh?

I'll be Down Under for two months, arriving on Jan 18th. I'll have a car for the whole of the period – I do like making free with your cheap petrol ;-). I feel so 'green' that way ;-). I'll PM you when plans firm up a bit. I'll be in Sydney very briefly, in Melbourne (my son's there), Adelaide, and perhaps Canberra. The rest of the time, I'll be 'saving the planet', touring. Anyone who fancies a tinnie/stub or vino, drop me a PM, please.

I like Steve's idea of meeting in the UK. Merry Christmas, everybody!



Religion – an activity for consenting adults in private.

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40. Comment #104900 by dlitt on December 29, 2007 at 11:04 pm

Comment #102953 by Veronique on December 24, 2007 at 3:16 am

I am so glad you understand the travails of living in this benighted country. Whew. Someone who knows. I feel better.

You should be proud to have the true heir to the Throne of England in your country - a 'Michael' somebody - forgot his name. Saw it on the telly a few years back.

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41. Comment #106483 by LeeC on January 3, 2008 at 3:00 am

Chaser... one of the few funny Oz programs on the TV. (The rest have been axed)

Lee

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42. Comment #111870 by Saim on January 15, 2008 at 11:04 pm

Chaser is so awesome :D

I'm a huge fan of their show.

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43. Comment #113097 by impy0596 on January 18, 2008 at 2:42 pm

as a constituent of iowa i must say go charles grassley go audit these frauds and start taxing them for the crooks they are!

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44. Comment #113840 by britmale on January 20, 2008 at 6:16 pm

Yes... I've been trapped here in Perth for the last twelve years... place is hell. Surrounded by beaches, a quality restaurant for every twenty inhabitants, every house a detached bungalow, public transport that shames any system in Europe. The only thing for the kids to do is surf and/or go to University (there are six for a population of 1.5 million). The clubs, pubs and entertainment is continuous. Massive firework displays for any reason you can think of, sport and entertainment everywhere... etc the torment just goes on and on. To cap it all everyone famous retires here!... Perth has more millionaires per head than anywhere else on the planet!... You can't swot spiders for fear of hitting a rich old rock star!!
I must go now and turn the steaks and put some more salt in the pool... Why are those bags (and steaks!) so heavy?..
Yes... absolute hell... so tourists beware and stay away from Perth.

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45. Comment #114462 by sarah95 on January 22, 2008 at 8:49 am

This is so refreshing. This would never get on American television (can we say 'oversensitivity'...), much less in a prime time slot. However, we have not just entire 24/7 channels of this tripe(separate ones for catholics and protestants), but also "The 700 Club" of Pat Robertson that airs Sunday mornings and evenings on NBC. Just insane. It makes reality shows on MTV and VH1 seem positively sophisticated.

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46. Comment #125379 by oisha on February 11, 2008 at 9:42 am

Veronique and Flagellant,

Unfortunately Australia does NOT have a wall of separation. You'll immediately want to tell me that I'm wrong but bear with me, and let me explain the legal semantics. To recap, Section 116 states,

"The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth."

As much as I wish it were otherwise, there are a number of shortcomings to this from a secular perspective.

#1. Notice the word "for"? Although small, this single word has huge ramifications for the practical application of the Section. Its effect is to make the intention of the legislator a primary consideration in questions of whether a given law is constitutional or not. Hence, a law which has the practical result of establishing a religion may be permitted if it is deemed that the law was not made FOR that purpose. Therefore, the Government is not acting illegally when it sponsors faith-based schools, because however much this might act to establish religion in PRACTICE, the monies are being issued in PRINCIPLE for the provision of education services, often on the basis of economic rationalist philosophies.

#2. "Establishment" is used in the very technical legal sense in which a particular state and church become institutionalised, one with the other. It does not refer to a general increase in a society's religiosity. Non-Commonwealth grants which assist, support or encourage religion are not in and of themselves sufficient to qualify as establishment.

#3. The phrasing "any religion" also means that the Commonwealth is prohibited from enacting legislation with the willful intention of establishing any one particular religion above all others, but it is not prohibited from enacting legislation with the willful intention of establishing religion generally. So long as the Commonwealth does not favour one religion over another, it is free to spend as much money on religion as it likes. Hence, the constitution was on John Howard's side when he attempted to offer funding to public schools which would install a faith chaplain. Although such funding would have clearly been prejudiced against counsellors who might maintain a secular worldview, Howard was careful to ensure that the faith of the chaplain remain unspecified and would be left at the discretion of the school in question. Hence, it qualified as non-preferential support of religion, and would therefore have been permitted under Section 116.

This may all sound rather pedantic, but hey, that's lawyers for you. The precedents for these interpretations were set in the 1981 Defence of Government Schools case. I think it's as big a load of b***sh*t as you probably do, and I resent Howard's duplicitous attempts to introduce religion into public schools under the aegis of "values education" as much as the next person, but I'd only be lying to myself if I said that Australia DOES have a wall of separation when, as much as I rue it, it actually doesn't - or, at least, it's missing a hell of a lot of bricks.

Fortunately, however, we live in a democracy. The constitution affords the Government many powers that are often not invoked because it would still be politically unwise to do so (such as conscription, or the ability to overturn land right claims for which it is in the "national interest" to do so). Thankfully, enough people kicked up a fuss about Howard's chaplaincy plans that it ultimately became a non-event, and that makes the role of forums such as these all the more important.

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47. Comment #146766 by pawiz on March 19, 2008 at 11:37 am

Everything in Australia is either poisonous, pointy, or both. I've never been to Australia but I do have faith that it exists.

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