Friday, December 28, 2007 | Reason : In the News | print version

Archbishop of Canterbury Praises Richard Dawkins

by Times Online

Reposted from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3095435.ece

The world is not a warehouse to serve our greed, Archbishop tells worshippers

Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

The Archbishop of Canterbury yesterday blamed mankind's greed for endangering the environment.

In his Christmas Day sermon at Canterbury Cathedral, Dr Rowan Williams said: "When we threaten the balance of things, we don't just put our material survival at risk. More profoundly, we put our spiritual sensitivity at risk, the possibility of being opened up to the endless wonder by the world around us."

He said that the world was not merely a "warehouse of resources to serve humanity's selfishness", and he urged people to treat each other and nature with "reverence".

The Archbishop also singled out for praise the atheist Richard Dawkins, the Oxford professor recently outed as a carol singer, whom he described as being in touch with the "amazement and awe" of God's creation.

He likened Professor Dawkins' understanding of the beauty of the world around us with that of St John of the Cross, the 16th-century mystic.

Dr Williams, who was recently interviewed by Professor Dawkins about Charles Darwin and evolution for a Channel 4 series to be broadcast next year, said that the whole point of creation was that there should be people "capable of intimacy with God — not so that God can gain something, but so that these created beings may live in joy."

The Archbishop of York, Dr John Sentamu, said that the Christmas message challenged complacency and prejudice. Preaching in York Minster without his clerical collar after he cut it up in a televised protest against the Zimbabwean regime of Robert Mugabe, Dr Sentamu said that injustices such as the abduction of Madeleine McCann, the murder of the schoolboy Rhys Jones and the failure of anyone to take responsibility for the Omagh bombing were examples of God being "violated and blasphemed". He said that every individual was a "stand-in for God" and needed to be treated with value, dignity and respect. "For God who came to us in humility speaks forcefully to our pride, economic and social status, justice and the importance of human worth. Forcing us to see each human being as a God-Carrier, a stand-in for God."

He called on people to join forces in bringing human rights violations to an end. Such abuses disfigured the likeness of God, he said.

The Archbishop of Westminster, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, who has seen the number of Roman Catholics in England surpass Church of England worshippers because of the surge in migration from the EU accession states, said that Britain should do more to welcome the newcomers.

During Midnight Mass at Westminster Cathedral, Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor said: "What concerns me at the moment is our attitude as a nation to these many immigrants. Many of these people are trying, for perfectly good reasons, to enter Britain and they need to be welcomed."

Preaching on the importance of Christian compassion towards the less fortunate, he said: "I understand that immigration needs to be controlled. However, sometimes [migrants] must feel like Joseph when he returned to Bethlehem after exile in Egypt, simply excluded because they are outsiders. Do we perceive them as a threat to our wellbeing or to our way of life, or are we able to welcome people who need that welcome? Is there any room at our inn? Can we offer them tidings of comfort and joy, or do we simply close our doors?"

He also spoke of the importance of helping those in need, including the homeless. "If we always walk past the homeless men and women in our cities and never really look at them, never allow them to touch our hearts, something essential is missing in our idea of Christianity, and we find that, like the innkeeper in the Gospel."

The Anglican Bishop of Shrewsbury, Dr Alan Smith, echoed Dr Williams's environmental concerns. "If the warnings from the recent Bali conference on climate change come true, we may not have many more white Christmases," he said. "There is a growing consensus that the human race is damaging the world's ecosys-tems at an alarming rate and that urgent action is needed. One of the difficulties is that we all want everyone else to change their lifestyles, so that we can continue with ours. We need to pray for a consensus to emerge at global and national levels that we all need to live differently."

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1. Comment #104320 by phil rimmer on December 28, 2007 at 10:24 am

He likened Professor Dawkins' understanding of the beauty of the world around us with that of St John of the Cross, the 16th-century mystic.

Progress of sorts. Next we need an admission that he (we) might be as moral.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

2. Comment #104326 by maton100 on December 28, 2007 at 10:30 am

Another example of association by default via inconguous conflation and misplaced flattery.

Other Comments by maton100

3. Comment #104328 by _J_ on December 28, 2007 at 10:35 am

I'm growing quite proud of, and impressed by, our Archbishops.

Other Comments by _J_

4. Comment #104330 by Vaal on December 28, 2007 at 10:38 am

So, RD is now a militant mystic?

Other Comments by Vaal

5. Comment #104331 by fieryanteater on December 28, 2007 at 10:38 am

[Dr Williams, who was recently interviewed by Professor Dawkins about Charles Darwin and evolution for a Channel 4 series to be broadcast next year.]

I wonder if he gets to interview Ted Haggard for this one :-) probably not, but something to look forward to anyway,does anyone have news when it will actualy get transmitted ?

Other Comments by fieryanteater

6. Comment #104333 by Mike Dudley on December 28, 2007 at 10:42 am

Your impressed with "our" Archbishops?

"whom he described as being in touch with the "amazement and awe" of God's creation"

How is it possible for the good Professor to be in touch with something which he himself says DOES NOT EXIST?

The clerics, like every other victim of indoctrination, always fall at the very first hurdle by trying to misrepresent the atheist position - not because they are wilfully manipulative, but because they don't seem to be able to follow the simplest of logics...

Other Comments by Mike Dudley

7. Comment #104334 by eXcommunicate on December 28, 2007 at 10:42 am

This is a backhanded compliment if anything. Didn't take long for a religious leader to put his spin on the "revelation" that Richard likes to sing Christmas carols. Hell, I like singing "12 Days of Christmas" with my extended family every Christmas, but that doesn't mean I do it for the "awe" and "inspiration" I get from the "Christian Message"[TM].

Other Comments by eXcommunicate

8. Comment #104336 by clunkclickeverytrip on December 28, 2007 at 10:43 am

"The Archbishop also singled out for praise the atheist Richard Dawkins, the Oxford professor recently outed as a carol singer, whom he described as being in touch with the "amazement and awe" of God's creation."

I think RD's position is being misrepresented to the tune of, say, 180 degrees. RD is in touch with the amazement and awe of the power of evolution on the geological timescale, not of "God's creation".
Name dropping of a prominent atheist may have some self-serving purpose to the Archbishop, but he'd be better off simply saying to his flock: "You know what, Richard Dawkins is right. There's is no God. I resign, and I've spent the church's money on evolutionary biology text books that have been mailed to each member of this church. I've also sent letters to the leaders of the world's other religions recommending they follow my lead." That would be the only time I could see a reason for him to invoke RD.

Other Comments by clunkclickeverytrip

9. Comment #104338 by Stormkahn on December 28, 2007 at 10:49 am

I've got to say that broadly speaking I like what they have to say, at least they're pointing in the right direction. They seem to be getting more on song about the environment and other important issues rather than prattling on about peoples sex lives. Perhaps Desmond Tutu's take is actually starting to sink in and move them in a better direction for us all?

I can't help think that the backhanded complement to RD is about getting a little closer to your enemy...but that's very unchristian of me and for once perhaps he's espousing some love for his fellow man no matter their creed.

Other Comments by Stormkahn

10. Comment #104342 by Paula Kirby on December 28, 2007 at 10:51 am

The Archbishop also singled out for praise the atheist Richard Dawkins, the Oxford professor recently outed as a carol singer, whom he described as being in touch with the "amazement and awe" of God's creation.

Yeah, yeah, in other words: God's so wonderful, even the world's most famous atheist is gobsmacked by him. Fortunately, who cares what the Archbishop of Canterbury says? The bit about RD making a programme on evolution for Channel 4 is, however, very good news indeed.

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

11. Comment #104344 by al-rawandi on December 28, 2007 at 10:52 am

I don't know if RD scrolls through these posts, if he does...

Don't worry, I am sure if you scrub hard enough that might come off.

I threw up in my mouth, just a little, reading that.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

12. Comment #104352 by phil rimmer on December 28, 2007 at 11:10 am

How is the change going to happen? How will the religious come to recognize that we atheists are not sad lost, barely moral creatures with a great big God-shaped hole in us? Despite claims to the contrary from some religious leaders, this statement regarding RD, marks our (atheist) aesthetic sensibilities as being FULLY intact, at least.

Though the compliment is back-handed it stands and cannot reasonably be retracted. This is a firm step to saying that God is not in here (touches head and heart) but out there (waves arm). From theist to deist from deist to....cured....

Other Comments by phil rimmer

13. Comment #104356 by Diacanu on December 28, 2007 at 11:12 am

eXcommunicate-

Hell, I like singing "12 Days of Christmas" with my extended family every Christmas, but that doesn't mean I do it for the "awe" and "inspiration" I get from the "Christian Message"[TM].

You do it cuz you want all those rings, and birds, and pears, right?

And hey, what about those 5 maids a milking?
:P

Other Comments by Diacanu

14. Comment #104364 by icanus on December 28, 2007 at 11:27 am

So the senior representative (who as part of the job gets to live in what is officially termed a palace) of one of the biggest land owners in britain, with an anual incomewell in excess of half a billion pounds, is denouncing human greed?

Other Comments by icanus

15. Comment #104365 by liddlefeesh on December 28, 2007 at 11:27 am

Ahhh, a back-handed compliment! We're at least 1/2 way there...

Other Comments by liddlefeesh

16. Comment #104368 by DCPirana on December 28, 2007 at 11:35 am

This is all very much in line with what I learned growing up in the Episcopal church... What I find disquieting, however, is the suggestion that compassion is simply a part of Christianity and not a part of our humanity. I haven't gotten around to reading anything on evolutionary psychology yet, but I'm quite convinced that philanthropy does not stem from Christianity but from something more universal.

Other Comments by DCPirana

17. Comment #104372 by FXR on December 28, 2007 at 11:44 am

Mr. Rowan William is no doubt a nice man and means well. He also seems to be a reasonable individual with a conscience. To any rational individual compared to Herr Ratzinger he is by far the more acceptable religious leader of the two. What does it say about the true believers that Ratzinger is gaining adherents and Mr. Williams is losing them?
It's also unfortunate that even his piece above carries some of the poisons of organised religionism. Firstly there's the overbearing arrogance of claiming someone is demonstrating the myths that religion claims even though that person is diametrically opposed to such beliefs.
Secondly there's the repeated myth that there is some positive message inherent in Christianity. The message of Christianity is anti-human. Its demotes the human race to being the pawns of an invisible super-nosey invisible alien and treats our only home, the Earth, as a mere waiting room for some imaginary theme park built around clouds, po-faced harpists and winged interplanetary effeminate hippies wearing garments made from curtains.

Other Comments by FXR

18. Comment #104373 by Naughty Mr Crocodile on December 28, 2007 at 11:45 am

I agree with everything Rowan Williams says, except for the places he mentions God, which are superflous and unnecessary.

Go through what he says, changing "we must do X because God says/does/expects that blah blah blah..." into simply "we must do X", and it still makes perfect sense.

Occam's Razor, Dr Williams?

Other Comments by Naughty Mr Crocodile

19. Comment #104376 by SurfDude on December 28, 2007 at 11:51 am

14. Comment #104364 by icanus

So the senior representative (who as part of the job gets to live in what is officially termed a palace) of one of the biggest land owners in britain, with an anual incomewell in excess of half a billion pounds, is denouncing human greed?

Since when have religions ever done anything more original than simply responding to the zeitgeist? Hypocrisy (and the associated cognitive dissonance) is a central requirement of all theism.

Other Comments by SurfDude

20. Comment #104385 by SurfDude on December 28, 2007 at 12:02 pm

Ha! Nice one Sleep of Reason. I shall be sure to learn that one for the next time anyone is foolish enough to knock on my door ....

Other Comments by SurfDude

21. Comment #104386 by automath on December 28, 2007 at 12:04 pm

Haven't read it yet.

_J_ - I'm growing quite proud of, and impressed by, our Archbishops.

But if you like this read up on the Scout Movement on Wikipedia. Compare and contrast the UK version against the American Christian Fascist one.

Other Comments by automath

22. Comment #104387 by Steve Zara on December 28, 2007 at 12:06 pm

Yeah, yeah, in other words: God's so wonderful, even the world's most famous atheist is gobsmacked by him.

This cracked me up. Trust you to cut through all the nonsense to get to the truth.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

23. Comment #104389 by Blake C. Stacey on December 28, 2007 at 12:11 pm

I think that "Professor Dawkins' understanding of the beauty of the world around us" far exceeds that of any sixteenth-century mystic, for the simple reason that he � and most of the people commenting on this website � knows more about that world around us than did the mystics of a less enlightened age.

Other Comments by Blake C. Stacey

24. Comment #104392 by Diacanu on December 28, 2007 at 12:19 pm

I wish there was an archbishop of Cadbury, and all he did was hand out chocolate to children.

That would be more humanitarian than what these fuckin' regular bishops do with themselves.

Other Comments by Diacanu

25. Comment #104393 by al-rawandi on December 28, 2007 at 12:24 pm

Diacanu,

I think the bishops are busy with children. Just I don't know about the chocolate.

The Catholics are brilliant...

Really old dude 1:
"Let's create a religious institution where we make the sole qualification sexual abnormality and deviance, give them the power over people, and turn them loose with some kids."

really old dude 2 (looks like guy from Guiness commercial):
"Brilliant!"

Other Comments by al-rawandi

26. Comment #104396 by Steve Wrathall on December 28, 2007 at 12:32 pm

"When we threaten the balance of things, we don't just put our material survival at risk..."
More evidence that our craving to believe in apocalyptism is probably evolutionarily hotwired.
So many religious "moderates", now too embarrassed to sell Revelations et.al., jump on the "climate alarmism" bandwagon. A brilliant fit as they have the same aversion to material wellbeing and love of human suffering as the deep green religios.

Other Comments by Steve Wrathall

27. Comment #104398 by annabanana on December 28, 2007 at 12:33 pm

Diacanu, you make me laugh. And I think you use the f-word more than I do, which is a feat. I do try to restrict my language here, though. I seem to have a hard enough time getting people to take me seriously as it is, minus the swearing...

Other Comments by annabanana

28. Comment #104399 by kaiserkriss on December 28, 2007 at 12:35 pm

Just because RD enjoys and appreciates a certain kind of music doesn't mean RW gets to make a bunch of suppositions about him.

Along those lines, I wonder if RW would still appreciate coral music if the texts were laced with satanic verses, or what he would refer to as blasphemy? Does RW like the music because of the religious overtones of the lyrics, or does he simply appreciate the music? Think of Coral music with "Black Sabbath" lyrics if you may..

Think about it for a moment... I like some Xmas music for its tonal qualities, not the lyrics, which in most cases leave a lot to be desired.jcw

Other Comments by kaiserkriss

29. Comment #104402 by Matt7895 on December 28, 2007 at 12:38 pm

I just hate how he uses the word 'creation' repeatedly. Of course he's not referring to creationism, ie. literal story of creation, dinosaurs with men etc, but it is quite misleading, some could misunderstand his meaning.

Other Comments by Matt7895

30. Comment #104404 by Mwangangi on December 28, 2007 at 12:45 pm

Dr John Sentamu : [snip] ...God-Carrier...[/snip]

That's perfect. It's always so muddled to try to refer to people as believers and other people as believers in (religious) belief. Now I can call them God-Carriers, and God-Infected...

Other Comments by Mwangangi

31. Comment #104416 by 82abhilash on December 28, 2007 at 1:12 pm

Archbishop of Canterbury is putting a spin on what Richard Dawkins said to remain relevant in the new world. Most members of his old congregation have children with secular outlooks. The new congregation mostly goes to the catholic church.

So what does he do? Puts a spin on what a popular person said and hijacks it for his cause. They have done it before with Einstein and with Stephen Hawking. This is an old trick.

Other Comments by 82abhilash

32. Comment #104420 by Mr DArcy on December 28, 2007 at 1:14 pm

Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor said:

He also spoke of the importance of helping those in need, including the homeless. "If we always walk past the homeless men and women in our cities and never really look at them, never allow them to touch our hearts, something essential is missing in our idea of Christianity, and we find that, like the innkeeper in the Gospel."

If the divine being has all the powers ascribed to Him by the priests, I wonder why there are all these "people in need". You'd think a perfect creator would at least behave like a "heavenly father" and look after his crop. Yes I do understand about "free will", but from the divinity's point of view it's the same as saying: "There now, I've made you so beautiful. Now here are the matches and petrol (gasoline), now just go away and play, and if you burn the house down, blame yourselves not me, because you have free will".

Actually the religions love poverty and its effects. It gives them a fertile breeding ground. The Christian church arose as the product of the Roman Empire's slavery. It was the religion of the slaves. Its revolutionary character could not be suppressed so instead it was adopted as the official religion of the Roman Empire in 313 AD. Subsequent talk of the "meek inheriting the Earth", became rather downplayed.

Now it's big business.

Other Comments by Mr DArcy

33. Comment #104425 by The Smart Patrol on December 28, 2007 at 1:20 pm

Paula:

"Yeah, yeah, in other words: God's so wonderful, even the world's most famous atheist is gobsmacked by him. Fortunately, who cares what the Archbishop of Canterbury says? The bit about RD making a programme on evolution for Channel 4 is, however, very good news indeed."

British telly has been screaming out for RD to make a proper programme about evolution for quite some time now, but I can't help but think that a figure such as Dawkins is totally wasted at Channel 4. He'd get a bigger audience at the BBC, and the editing and production values would also be a lot better. I felt his previous effort- the programme about irrational superstition and homeopathy- was, whilst engaging, a bit watered-down and shallow. The BBC would be better suited to a man of his stature.

Other Comments by The Smart Patrol

34. Comment #104426 by Shane McKee on December 28, 2007 at 1:20 pm

"Preaching on the importance of Christian compassion towards the less fortunate, [Cormac Murphy-O'Connor] said: "I understand that immigration needs to be controlled. However, sometimes [migrants] must feel like Joseph when he returned to Bethlehem after exile in Egypt, simply excluded because they are outsiders."

Duh! Could he have been thinking of Matt 2:22? Maybe he should have looked it up first. Just goes to show - even archbishops don't know their bibles very well...

Other Comments by Shane McKee

35. Comment #104431 by zdravko on December 28, 2007 at 1:25 pm

What the bishops says is acceptable only if by "God" he means
a deist creative force( about which nothing can be knowable), certainly not the deity of any of the
religions of the world.

Other Comments by zdravko

36. Comment #104433 by KJC on December 28, 2007 at 1:31 pm

Never liked the Archbishop. An opportunist who will take a twist on any news story in recent events and give full credit to his religion, or use a news story to say "oh well if only everyone was religious this wouldnt happen".

Also has his fingers in many pies relating to politics. Just on a bill for euthanasia was being voted on in the House of Lords, who was there voting an emphatic NO but him and his buddies in dresses. Just why does this prick and his flock have any political power in this country anyway?

As for his comment about Dawkins... a complete misnomer. It implies that Dawkins heart is in the right place, but he's just so misguided because he doesn't credit it with god.

The guy is a complete ARSE.

Other Comments by KJC

37. Comment #104441 by keith on December 28, 2007 at 1:43 pm

Maton100,

Another example of association by default via inconguous conflation and misplaced flattery.

What does this mean? (You're not the bloke who used to say lots of long words on 'The Good Old Days', are you?)

Other Comments by keith

38. Comment #104451 by The Smart Patrol on December 28, 2007 at 1:54 pm

keith:

"What does this mean? (You're not the bloke who used to say lots of long words on 'The Good Old Days', are you?)"

I also wondered what the hell that meant. I reckoned it either meant nothing and the guy's a professional obscurantist of the kind RD would probably like to take to task, or else I'm just a bit slow.

Other Comments by The Smart Patrol

39. Comment #104456 by robotaholic on December 28, 2007 at 2:08 pm

I bet Richard Dawkins wishes he never opened his mouth about singing christmas carols- You know that the religious w/e in Britian just froth at the mouth waiting for Richard Dawkins to "slip up" - and even though he didn't and was honest, it's being spun in a religious way- which isn't fair. I seriously doubt they would be as kind about Richard Dawkins if he participated in a pagan winter ritual of some sort- then he would get a VERY different reaction from the Canterberry guy

Other Comments by robotaholic

40. Comment #104465 by Corylus on December 28, 2007 at 2:37 pm

To be 100% fair I am pleased to see a church leader with an environmentalist message: long may this trend continue.

If only he could realise that:

a) You don't need God for that
and
b) You can 'live in joy' without a skyfairy giving you permission to do so.

Again and again we see these people giving God so much credit and people so very little. I happen to find this quite sad - and they say atheists are the miserable cynics.

This brings me to another point....

Trans: The Church and God get credit for the good shit even when / especially when they haven't earned it.
---
P.S.. Anyone else noting that noting with amusement that the author of this piece is making a subtle hint... ??

The Archbishop of Westminster, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, who has seen the number of Roman Catholics in England surpass Church of England worshippers because of the surge in migration from the EU accession states, said that Britain should do more to welcome the newcomers.

Tee Hee.

Other Comments by Corylus

41. Comment #104467 by acacias on December 28, 2007 at 2:50 pm

"the whole point of creation was that there should be people "capable of intimacy with God � not so that God can gain something, but so that these created beings may live in joy."

Then creation has failed. As I drive round the streets of Luanda I see extremely poor people with completely inadequate water supplies, so many child pregnancies, dirt, squalor etc etc etc. I don't see people living in joy in all of that. But then they aren't the hypocritical archbishop living in luxury. They are real people that the archbishop's business partners on the pentecostal/evangelical side can't wait to exploit.

Other Comments by acacias

42. Comment #104468 by SRWB on December 28, 2007 at 2:58 pm

Lots of comments in the article concerning environmental stewardship and inferences that we humans were causing damage to God's perfect creation. If the earth is so perfect, how is that even possible? Wouldn't God have created earth, its contents and surrounding atmospheres in such a way so that we mere mortals couldn't possibly fuck it all up?

Other Comments by SRWB

43. Comment #104469 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 28, 2007 at 3:00 pm

Hey all. Off topic, but I hope sufficiently interesting to earn your retrospective forgiveness.

I have been telling my life story to some fundamentalist christians here :

http://godswaymyway.blogspot.com/

and drifted into a fairly civil dialouge. Feel free to pop over and contribute, but please consider that Mark, the owner of the Blog has very graciously posted my ramblings, so please respect that:-)

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

44. Comment #104472 by Steve Zara on December 28, 2007 at 3:09 pm

Hey all. Off topic, but I hope sufficiently interesting to earn your retrospective forgiveness.

It certainly was. Your patience in dealing with the discussions there is remarkable. It must be so tempting to respond "your conversion 'experience' was just a funny turn, perhaps due to too much sugar". Perhaps I should not make light of such things, but it is hard to resist.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

45. Comment #104475 by jaytee_555 on December 28, 2007 at 3:17 pm

Message to the Bish; You can criticise Dawkins if you like - after all, it's your job - but don't try to steal the bits of him you approve of to support your crackpot religion. It's quite sickening to watch.

Other Comments by jaytee_555

46. Comment #104478 by krisking on December 28, 2007 at 3:29 pm

How will the religious come to recognize that we atheists are not sad lost, barely moral creatures with a great big God-shaped hole in us?

Perhaps when "(you) atheists" start saying more about than world than just "God doesn't exist, science proves it, and that's all we're saying"

Other Comments by krisking

47. Comment #104483 by Steve Zara on December 28, 2007 at 3:45 pm

Perhaps when "(you) atheists" start saying more about than world than just "God doesn't exist, science proves it, and that's all we're saying"

OK.

It is quite big, round(ish) and mostly blue. Sorry - my mistake. That was the geographer in me, not the atheist.

It is old, filled with lots of rocks, most of them pretty hot, and some of them very old. Sorry - my mistake. That was the geologist in me, not the atheist.

It is covered with life, which has evolved over billions of years. Sorry - my mistake. That was the biologist in me, not the atheist.

It is populated by billions of people, all of whom are of equal merit, be they black, white, man, woman, gay or straight. Sorry - my mistake. That was the anthropologist in me, not the atheist.

The atheist in me has very little to say, except that it doesn't believe in God (although it can probably include a bit of disbelief in witches, dragons and fairies if really pushed).

You may want to note that everything I have said about the the world above has at one time or another been denied by religion.

The atheist in me does not say that much, but its presence allows me to say so much more about the world than theism might permit, depending on which version of theism I happened to have let in.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

48. Comment #104488 by phil rimmer on December 28, 2007 at 4:04 pm

Phil: How will the religious come to recognize that we atheists are not sad lost, barely moral creatures with a great big God-shaped hole in us?

Kris: Perhaps when "(you) atheists" start saying more about than world than just "God doesn't exist, science proves it, and that's all we're saying"

Ha-hah! So its true! You think we're sad lost, barely moral creatures.

And maybe you actually missed what RW said about RD. Did you read the article? Did you follow my comment?

Elegant riposte, Steve.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

49. Comment #104489 by krisking on December 28, 2007 at 4:11 pm

briancoughlanworldcitizen

my life story

Thanks for posting this, Brian. I found it made very interesting reading, and some of what you describe mirrors my own experience of being (or perhaps not being?) and living with Christians of various persuasions. You write about some of the good Christians you had met from other denominations like the pastor in the army, and that it set you wondering, but I wonder how or why their lifestyle (which you appear to admire beyond the details of their doctrinal understanding) thereby pushed you away from remaining a Christian.

Other Comments by krisking

50. Comment #104491 by krisking on December 28, 2007 at 4:22 pm

How will the religious come to recognize that we atheists are not sad

Well, you did ask the question. The reality is that whenever I have asked a question which goes beyond "does God exist?", I get very flimsy answers.

Even when I asked what the world would be like if everybody became an atheist, at best I got answers along the lines of , well there wouldn't be any religions and therefore no religious wars. So what is the positive answer?

No-one seems to have thought that out.

Other Comments by krisking