1. Comment #1911 by Janus on October 17, 2006 at 9:34 pm

Agreed, Sri, this is without a doubt the best interview yet. I made some minor criticisms in a comment to another interview recently, but I must say that this one was perfect.

Well, almost perfect. I was surprised to hear Prof. Dawkins say that he didn't know where our so-called 'universal' morals (those morals that influence even religious believers) come from. Dawkins of course knows better than almost anybody else that natural selection has 'gifted' us with empathy and altruism. Society also has its role, as even Christian fundamentalists are influenced by the rest of their society no matter how isolated they are. I haven't read the God Delusion yet (it's on the way!), but I think Dawkins has written about society's moral progress. So, as I said, this was a bit surprising.

Nevertheless, an excellent interview. Keep it up, Professor.

2. Comment #2121 by maryhelena on October 19, 2006 at 2:57 am

Excellent interview with D.J. Grothe. So that’s it then - the big question for Richard Dawkins is: “Is there a god at all?’. Indeed, a very big question. But does ‘The God Delusion’ really tackle, let alone answer, this question? From the Cambridge book reading it seems that the book (my copy has yet to arrive from amazon UK) is dealing only with a theistic god.

I found Dawkins answer, to the question regarding his strategy and uncompromising stance on religion, most interesting. When push comes to shove the issue of evolution education in schools takes second place. Dawkins wants to fight a bigger battle - but a fight that will take him into an arena in which there is no material evidence! A strange venture indeed for a scientist.

No evidence equals no theistic god. End of story. Yet Dawkins marches on……From various reviews of ‘The God Delusion’ it appears that there is nothing new in the book. Yet, by all accounts, this book looks to be a bestseller; named a classic by some; another interviewer says that if there is only one book you will read for the rest of your life - it should be this book. (Dawkins radio interview on a local station).

What then is going on here? Timing they say is everything. Perhaps Dawkins is simply the man of the moment. The man who, with this book, will be the man who will put the final nail in the coffin of the theistic god? The theistic god has been dead a long time now - all that’s needed is a very public burial

Dawkins, for all his negative rhetoric on the theological content of religion, is way behind many prominent Christian theologians: A quick look at the website of the Jesus Seminar, for instance, could prove educational:

Robert W. Funk:
Robert W. Funk was a distinguished teacher, writer, translator and publisher in the field of religion. A Guggenheim Fellow and Senior Fulbright Scholar, he served as Annual Professor of the American School of Oriental Research in Jerusalem and as chair of the Graduate Department of Religion at Vanderbilt University. Founder of the Westar Institute and the Jesus Seminar

The Coming Radical Reformation: Twenty-one Theses.

A paper in which the first two points listed are: 1 The God of the metaphysical age is dead. There is not a personal god out there external to human beings and the material world. 2. The doctrine of special creation of the species died with the advent of Darwinism.

John Shelby Spong:
Retired Episcopal Bishop Emeritus of Newark, New Jersey

A Call for a New Reformation.

A paper in which he says that theism, as a way of defining God is dead and that creation is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.

Whether the christian god? Or should the question be - was the theistic god ever a christian god? Someone who has attempted to answer this question is Lloyd Geering. (Emeritus Professor of Religious Studies at Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand). His paper, ‘Christianity Minus Theism’ is available on the Jesus Seminar website. His book, ‘Christianity without God’, is available from amazon. (I’m afraid I’ve not read it - many years since I have read a book on theology….)

A new book, also available from amazon, on the subject of god is ‘The God Problem’ by Nigel Leaves. (Warden and Dean of Studies of John Wollaston,, Anglican Theological College, Perth, Western Australia).

These three books, ‘The God Delusion’, ‘The God Problem’, and ‘Christianity without God’, would make for a very interesting display in a bookstore - and would also allow Dawkins book to be seen as only a starting point in the god debate - not the final word. For, Dawkins notwithstanding, god is, once again, on the move….

3. Comment #2126 by maryhelena on October 19, 2006 at 3:48 am

 CORRECTION

Lloyd Geering’s ‘Christianity Minus Theism’, although a Jesus Seminar paper, is not available from the Jesus Seminar website (at least I did not find it there). A google search will bring up a couple of other websites on which it is awailable. Other papers by Geering are available at the Jesus Seminar website.

4. Comment #2214 by Jonathan Dore on October 19, 2006 at 6:31 pm

Hi Maryhelena

I think the main problem raised by your point is that if Spong, Leaves and Geering were representative of theists in general to any statistically significant extent, The God Delusion wouldn't have needed writing, and RD could go back to Oxford and spend his time doing evolutionary biology. There would still be a debate to be had over whether their post-supernaturalist ethics' attachment to such labels as "Christianity" was anything more than sentimentality, but the debate would have no wider urgency.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of believers in the Abrahamic religions (which are top of any current list of "religions dangerous to the survival of life on earth", and thus most in need of addressing) consider their religion to be theistic -- some from conviction, others by default, but theistic nonetheless. And in a world where those with the greatest conviction are in some of the most powerful political positions, this makes the debate a very urgent and practical one.

That's why I think it would be a mistake to think of The God Delusion as being primarily an attempt to "advance the argument" on a philosophical level. In that arena, as you've pointed out, it's arriving late in the day. But in the arena of the personal beliefs of ordinary people who have never studied theology or philosophy, and the practical politics and everyday public policy that flow from the socially aggregated mass of those beliefs, such a book is very much in the vanguard. It may be pushing at a philosophical open door, but it's straining even to open the thinnest chink of daylight into the world of popular belief.

5. Comment #2236 by maryhelena on October 20, 2006 at 2:45 am

Hi, Jonathan

How representative are Sprong, Leaves and Geering among their fellow theologians? Difficult to say, but, I would venture to guess that, as with the intellectuals among the scientific community, there are many a closet atheist there! Actually, I’ve even seen the term ‘Christian atheist, in regard to one prominent UK theologian - Don Cupitt.

“Don Cupitt is one of the world’s most controversial theologian-philosophers.

In his popular and, some would say, subversive BBC TV series of the 1980s, ‘The Sea of Faith’, Cupitt asserted that religion, in order to survive, must free itself from supernatural beliefs and be seen instead as a form of human cultural expression.

Cupitt has been described by some as a Christian atheist and he has not been afraid to attack the church and theologians. In his 1980 book Taking Leave of God Cupitt accused the church of exercising ‘psychological terrorism’. (from an online review of his book ‘ Is Nothing Sacred?’)”.

Jonathan, the weak point for any viable attack on Christian theology is not ‘god’. Sure, for many Christians a belief in a supernatural ‘god’ is fundamental to their theology. But, as the writings of some prominent theologians show, on a theological level, the theistic ‘god’ is not granted any immunity from debate. And I doubt very much that any Christian theologian, any theologian worth his salt, would be prepared to take a platform with Richard Dawkins. (the nutcase fundamentalists are another story - but methinks Dawkins would not waste his time).

‘The God Delusion’ as being a vehicle to push open the door to the minds of the ordinary Christian? I doubt it. The one thing about ‘god’, something that Dawkins must come to grips with, is that the concept of ‘god’ is open-ended. It always has been and always will be. One can knock any particular ‘god’ off his pedestal - but one cannot take ‘god’ out of the equation; one cannot take ‘god’ out of the psychology of human nature. If, for argument, one day the ‘god’ meme could be negated; if one day the ‘god’ gene could be found and circumvented - that could well be the day that we pull the plug on our survival as rational beings.

I don’t think belief in ‘god’ is the root of all evil. To use that old saying - it’s not the gun that kills people, it’s the man who pulls the trigger. It is the theology that man has ascribed to his ‘god’ that holds the potential for good and evil. So, rather than firing off missiles at some phantom in the sky, a more productive method would be to dissect every inch and cranny of theology - and thus, knowing what we are dealing with, we are armed to the teeth to do battle with theology when it attempts to infiltrate and cause problems in our social and political environment.

So, yes, Dawkins has plenty on his plate if his mission is to rid the world of the evils of theology. Unfortunately, however, it looks at though he might need a crash course in theology! I did read one reviewer who suggested he get hold of someone like Michael Shermer - or maybe Sam Harris (though I’ve not read anything he has written - but see that someone suggested Harris should have written ‘The God Delusion’).

Sadly, Christian theologians will find themselves unable to join with Dawkins in such a mission. While many of them might be closet atheists - they remain staunch believers in the historicity of Jesus. That is their Achilles heel. The historicity of Jesus is Christianity’s weak spot - not a theistic god.

A book that has caused a bit of a stir, in this regard is Freke and Gandy’s ‘The Jesus Mysteries’. The book has actually given rise to one of the largest yahoo groups - clearly indicating that it is here, in the arena of Jesus as a historical figure, that there is ground for a battle with Christian theology. Earl Doherty runs the Jesus Puzzle website - where he takes even the theologians/scholars of the Jesus Seminar to task. (However, Robert Price has come out in favor of Jesus being purely fiction).

There is plenty of room in this debate for Dawkins to use all his scientific training. Plenty of room to use his great mind. Debunking the theistic god is third grade stuff. He needs to up his game. He needs to take on Christian theologians and scholars regarding their claim that Jesus was a historical person - that is the only way to upset the apple cart. That is the only way to penetrate the minds of the ordinary Christian.