Saturday, January 5, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version

Stop House Resolution 888

by Dailykos

Thanks to Alexander Dundas-Taylor for the link.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1/4/884/00472/895/430331

House Resolution Promotes Fake "Christian Nation" Version Of American History

Is House Resolution 888 a big deal, meaning - does it have a chance ? Well, consider that, on December 11, 2007, the soft Christian nationalist "Christmas Resolution", House Resolution 847 passed on a vote of 372-9.

So, this new resolution - which I'd characterize as "hard Christian nationalist" might just have a shot because Democratic Party politicians are terrified of being tarred as "anti-Christian" and they lack the political advisers who can tell them how to effectively deflect such attacks. So, they tend to vote as, at least, "soft" Christian nationalists regardless of their personal religious views.

Introduced by Congressman Randy Forbes December 18 in the S House Of Representatives, H. Res 888 claims to be about ""Affirming the rich spiritual and religious history of our Nation's founding and subsequent history and expressing support for designation of the first week in May as `American Religious History Week' for the appreciation of and education on America's history of religious faith."

Actually, the resolution is packed with lies - American history lies to be specific.

Chris Rodda - who just joined the Daily Kos and without whose diligence we wouldn't know about this story - tells me she suspects that the following four part "resolution" that follows the dozens of history lies packed into H. Res. 888 has been designed to pave the way for some sort of legislation that would advance fake history in some devious or crafty way and I wouldn't be surprised. Here's part 2 of the "resolved" section of H. Res. 888 :

" Resolved, That the United States House of Representatives...

...(2) rejects, in the strongest possible terms, any effort to remove, obscure, or purposely omit such history from our Nation's public buildings and educational resources"

Help help ! They're oppressing fake history ! - It sounds like a Monty Python skit but, alas - it's real.

Actually, the partisans of the Christian right are quite impressive ; they're out of power, in Congress anyway, but they're always trying. They never miss a chance to advance Christian nationalist ideology even when they're in the legislative minority.

***

The easiest way to make the US into a Christian theocracy is to just re-write American history so that Americans grow up believing that the founders intended the US to be a Christian theocracy.

What's in H. Res 888 ? Let me give you a sense :

"Whereas in 1777, Congress, facing a National shortage of `Bibles for our schools, and families, and for the public worship of God in our churches,' announced that they `desired to have a Bible printed under their care & by their encouragement' and therefore ordered 20,000 copies of the Bible to be imported `into the different ports of the States of the Union';"

That's a lie.

"Whereas in 1789, Congress, in the midst of framing the Bill of Rights and the First Amendment, passed the first Federal law touching education, declaring that `Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged';"

Another lie.

"Whereas political scientists have documented that the most frequently-cited source in the political period known as The Founding Era was the Bible;"

Yet another lie.

Are you getting the picture ?

Those who control the past control the future.

Why I am asking you to go to yet another website

My apologies, dear readers, for the inconvenience of having to go to another site to finish this story. I have moved the last ~2/3 of this story so you can get and idea of where this sort of analysis and awareness of the Christian right, as a movement has come from - the origin of this story.

Back in late 2005 I co-founded Talk To Action, with Frederick Clarkson, to fill a need - there was far too little attention being paid to the Christian right, not as something to be mocked but as something to be understood, in a deep way, something to be taken seriously and fought.

The approach was that dictated by Sun Tzu, whose writing on military strategy is often required reading for the officers of the US military, and for good reason. Sun Tzu's work has stood the test of time. Sun Tzu advised that to fight an enemy effectively one must come to know that enemy like one knows oneself, and mockery is counterproductive because it only enrages and so increases the energy one's enemy has to fight.

Per Sun Tzu, the prerequisite to the effective combat, or strategic struggle, is knowledge - deep knowledge. The people who inhabit the Christian right are mostly honest, decent, and honorable. What motivates them in a deep way ? Do you even know ? Sun Tzu would ask ; how can one oppose a foe that one fails to understand and honor ?

Talk To Action represents the most comprehensive, most sustained, best informed analysis and commentary of the Christian right you'll find on the Internet or off. There really is nothing else like it. Many of the articles on the site are original. You'll find them nowhere else.

Are you disturbed by the ever-increasing "Christian" climate in America that seems really to be about suppressing minority religious and philosophical views ? Do you want a deeply informed sense of what the Christian right is all about, what it's up to ? Well, then Talk To Action is a site you might want to become acquainted with. It's not flashy, and it doesn't cover daily breaking news in the way many websites do. It provides the deeper understanding you'll need if you're convinced there's theocratic creep underway in America today, the understanding that's an essential prerequisite to effective action.

I say this, by the way, as someone who spent a good deal of the last year researching for MRFF. I've been groping my own way towards more effective action. We all are, and it's a learning and teaching process.

Best,
Bruce Wilson
Co-Founder, with Frederick Clarkson, Talk To Action

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1. Comment #107781 by Aaron on January 5, 2008 at 10:26 am

We need a coalition of the willing to liberate America and cause a regime change. This is getting ridiculous.

Other Comments by Aaron

2. Comment #107790 by action1976 on January 5, 2008 at 11:08 am

Nothing new about Americans re writing history.
A few world war 2 movies spring to mind.

Other Comments by action1976

3. Comment #107791 by GodlessHeathen on January 5, 2008 at 11:16 am

Seeking evidence to support a conclusion is apparently not limited to ID.

I'm sure my congresscritters are tired of getting e-mail from me by now. I guess they'll just have to suffer it though. Another e-mail sent.

Other Comments by GodlessHeathen

4. Comment #107794 by Double Bass Atheist on January 5, 2008 at 11:21 am

Worth repeating once again…
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross."
-Sinclair Lewis

There are so many people in the US now who are absolutely convinced that the Founding Fathers where very pious individuals.

The easiest way to make the US into a Christian theocracy is to just re-write American history so that Americans grow up believing that the founders intended the US to be a Christian theocracy.

Yep… that's the plan! And it's working. I have several friends who are atheists or agnostics that thought the nation's founders where devout men. They've just grown up hearing the lie repeated over and over again, and simply accepted it. Fortunately, I was able to show them quotes of Jefferson, Adams, Madison, et al, plus the Treaty of Tripoli and they now understand the truth. But these friends I'm talking about are rational evidenced-based people.
How does one re-educate Congress and the general public?
Stopping this resolution is a start, but we have to find a way to counter the whole "Let's hijack history" movement. But How?

Other Comments by Double Bass Atheist

5. Comment #107798 by BigJohn on January 5, 2008 at 11:43 am

Everone, email your U.S. ~~Reprehensible~~ Representative!

Mine is in his inbox now, waiting to be erased.

Other Comments by BigJohn

6. Comment #107800 by _J_ on January 5, 2008 at 11:49 am

If you Americans are rewriting your history, will you take contributions? I dare say an evening in with a few pints will produce some valuable 'long forgotten' facts.

Did you know that the 'War of Independence' is just a daft story (based loosely on Star Wars and Braveheart) to distract you from the truth, which is that your nation is actually out on loan from Britain, and was due back in 2000? (There's now a substantial overdue charge.) No? Amazing what you learn when you read the history books, eh?

Other Comments by _J_

7. Comment #107807 by quill on January 5, 2008 at 12:01 pm

Angry letter sent.

My representative did not vote for the Christmas resolution, so it was probably a meaningless exercise, but at least he'll have a little reading to do over the weekend.

Other Comments by quill

8. Comment #107811 by AdrianB on January 5, 2008 at 12:11 pm

Comment #107800 by _J_ on January 5, 2008 at 11:49 am

If you Americans are rewriting your history, will you take contributions? I dare say an evening in with a few pints will produce some valuable 'long forgotten' facts.

Did you know that the 'War of Independence' is just a daft story (based loosely on Star Wars and Braveheart) to distract you from the truth, which is that your nation is actually out on loan from Britain, and was due back in 2000? (There's now a substantial overdue charge.) No? Amazing what you learn when you read the history books, eh?

I've been saying this for some time. I'm okay with the claim that the US is a Christian nation because the founders were Christian, as long as they remember that they were also English. So, gerroff our land!

(I reckon I own that bit of land just to the south-west of Orlando, it's got a fibreglass castle built on it.)

Other Comments by AdrianB

9. Comment #107812 by JemyM on January 5, 2008 at 12:12 pm

Once Christianity erased history. That time it recovered because it was kept safe in the middle-east. If that had not happened, the world as we know it today would not exist.

Other Comments by JemyM

10. Comment #107816 by ADH on January 5, 2008 at 12:24 pm

"Once Christianity erased history"

That's quite a claim you're making for Christianity! If it succeeded in erasing it, how could you possibly know that it did? Which history did it erase? Have you got some kind of covert access to this putative history that has been denied to the rest of us? Maybe you could enlighten us! I'm sure there would be quite a lot of money to be made from its publication. Go for it! Of course, maybe you are bluffing and you have no such knowledge, in which case you are not really qualified to make a statement like this.

"That time it recovered because it was kept safe in the middle-east."

What recovered? History? Are you referring to Gnostic documents written from the second century onwards? What is it that gives these documents greater credibility?

I don't want to distract from the topic in hand of course. But I would like to know in what sense "Christianity" has been able to rewrite history - either in the Middle East or elsewhere.

Other Comments by ADH

11. Comment #107818 by Diacanu on January 5, 2008 at 12:24 pm

They pull this, and still whimper that they're persecuted.

It's the greatest bullshit story ever told.

Other Comments by Diacanu

12. Comment #107824 by _J_ on January 5, 2008 at 12:39 pm

ADH, JemyM

I guess you're referring there to the Dark Ages and the subsequent rediscovery of classical texts via the Turks, leading to the Renaissance, the birth of science and, essentially, the last five hundred years of history, are you JemyM?

I'm not enough of a historian to be able to comment on exactly how Europe completely forgot centuries' worth of artistic, philosophical and scientific progress for...how long? Hundreds of years? But the fact that it managed to remember to keep going to church and paying its tithes to an organisation that regarded the ancients as damned pagans seems likely to lend some weight to your post...

Anyone who knows about this stuff like to comment?

Other Comments by _J_

13. Comment #107828 by JFHalsey on January 5, 2008 at 12:52 pm

Are we sure this is for real? I don't know much about the Daily Kos, but this reads to me like an email forward. Does anybody know where we can find this resolution on the gov's actual website? And if those pronouncements are complete lies, what are they based on?

Other Comments by JFHalsey

14. Comment #107830 by obscured by clouds on January 5, 2008 at 12:54 pm

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.RES.888:

Other Comments by obscured by clouds

15. Comment #107831 by ivellios on January 5, 2008 at 12:55 pm

I urge you to vote against H.Res. 888 and do all you can to prevent its passage.

Ostensibly aimed at "[a]ffirming the rich spiritual and religious history of our Nation's founding and subsequent history," the resolution offers an erroneous, incomplete, and unbalanced description of our nation's history and founding principles. Some of the items touted in the resolution, moreover, are unwise, unconstitutional, notorious missteps of our past, including, for instance, the insertion of the phrase "under God" into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954. Our government has no business promoting religion, and it certainly should not couple our nation with god(s) when calling on us to pledge allegiance.

The resolution seeks to undermine the secular nature of our government. It should be rejected.

Also, look into the executive order allowing funding for "religious charities," I believe it to be unconstitutional. If someone wants to donate to religious charities, fine, but religious institutions already benefit from tax breaks, and they most certainly do not need our tax dollars to further insert themselves into our government.

Please do some informative research before rubber stamping yet another bill filled with, at best, empty rhetoric and at worst, outright lies. Please don't follow the herd as you did with Bill 847.

Thanks,

Matt

Posted to my Illustrious CongrASSman Hulshoff Who did vote for Bill 847.

The only comfort for me, I guess, is that I'm already smack in the middle of the new eden, which I lovingly refer to as the butthole of America.

The persecuted get more ballsy by the day.

Other Comments by ivellios

16. Comment #107835 by ScarSick on January 5, 2008 at 1:08 pm

Does anyone know if this resoultion has a 'good' chance of passing through the legislation process?

Other Comments by ScarSick

17. Comment #107838 by jbblack on January 5, 2008 at 1:11 pm

Its chance of surviving is inversely proportional to how many of us get off our butts and write anyway.

I've just sent my letter in, although my representative is most likely going to vote against it anyway. He's got a pretty good track for nipping B.S. in the bud.

Other Comments by jbblack

18. Comment #107839 by Goodwithwood on January 5, 2008 at 1:15 pm

I could rant and rave and quote and quote but I don't think it will make a difference so I'm going to just go cry.
Is there an English speaking rational thinking country out there that could use a hard working and dam good woodworker?

GWW

Other Comments by Goodwithwood

19. Comment #107859 by robotaholic on January 5, 2008 at 2:06 pm

I've found that paying attention to politics simply disappoints. So I'll just turn up madonna...and sing :) - noone can make me believe in invisible stuff and I really think most people don't actually believe in it anyway...(they're just good liars)

Other Comments by robotaholic

20. Comment #107863 by Mark Smith on January 5, 2008 at 2:15 pm

ADH

I would like to know in what sense "Christianity" has been able to rewrite history

It started straightaway, with the Gospels and Acts.

Other Comments by Mark Smith

21. Comment #107866 by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy on January 5, 2008 at 2:20 pm

"I would like to know in what sense "Christianity" has been able to rewrite history"

How about we start with "001: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." and see where we go from there.

Other Comments by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy

22. Comment #107873 by debaser71 on January 5, 2008 at 2:31 pm

I will write my representative tonight. Thanks for the heads up. I would also recommend that when writing suggest that your congress person sponsor a resolution recognizing the first amendment and the separation of church and state. Wouldn't it be great to see congress praising the constitution!

Other Comments by debaser71

23. Comment #107877 by ADH on January 5, 2008 at 2:37 pm

I would like to know in what sense "Christianity" has been able to rewrite history

"It started straightaway, with the Gospels and Acts."

In what sense was the record of Acts and th Gospels a "rewriting" of history as opposed to a historical record? If you examine Luke's account you will find that it reflects 1st century Palestine rather well. The detail is meticulous. When you don't happen to like a historical record it's not good enough just to announce that the said account is a "rewriting" of history. You must be able to show that this is the case. You must be able to present documentary or archaelogical evidence of wilful distorion. Where's the evidence? Does this site not pride itself in priorising EVIDENCE over wishful thinking? Let's have some evidence that history has been rewritten by Christianity. Otherwise I might be forced to conclude that the wishful thinking is actually on your side!

Other Comments by ADH

24. Comment #107902 by quill on January 5, 2008 at 2:54 pm

JemyM said:

Once Christianity erased history.

Then ADH said:

That's quite a claim you're making for Christianity! If it succeeded in erasing it, how could you possibly know that it did? Which history did it erase? Have you got some kind of covert access to this putative history that has been denied to the rest of us? Maybe you could enlighten us!

In their efforts to convert the native population of Mexico to Christianity, Catholic priests collected and burned hundreds of thousands of Aztec and Maya codices in a single event, believing them to have been the words of the Devil--effectively destroying the entire history of civilization in America up to that point. There were many libraries renowned throughout the Mesoamerican world at that time, but of them, only four books survived the torch--four pitiful books which today make up almost all we know about an entire world and its people. It is as if they never existed.

Tragically, that is more or less precisely what the Christians did to the Roman world, when they came to power. It was a Christian mob which burned the Great Library of Alexandria to the ground. All the knowledge we have of Plato, Aristotle, and other Classical (pagan) thinkers, preserved in part by Greek-speaking scholars in the Middle East, is only a tiny fraction of the knowledge and history that was destroyed by the early Christians, and which will never be rediscovered.

JemyM was correct when s/he said that Christianity once destroyed history, except that it actually did so not once, but twice, in two different worlds, a thousand years apart. It's as Ingersoll said: "Give the church a place in the Constitution, let her touch once more the sword of power, and the priceless fruit of all ages will turn to ashes on the lips of men." The churches are ready and willing to rekindle the flame at a moment's notice, should they ever be given the power to do so.

Other Comments by quill

25. Comment #107906 by Patrick McArdle on January 5, 2008 at 2:56 pm

Daily Kos is a website run by liberal activists in the Democratic Party, the majority party here in the United States ("Kos" is the founder's nickname.) The purpose of the site is to push the Democrats to be more liberal and secular.

My Representative, Dr. James McDermott of Seattle, was one of the 9 in the 372-9 vote. He openly mocked the sponsor of the bill. He needs no urging from me to vote against this one as well.

'In what sense was the record of Acts and th [sic] Gospels a "rewriting" of history as opposed to a historical record?'

Herod's slaughter of male babies does not exist in the secular historical record; neither does the order for everyone to return to their hometowns for taxation. Roman taxation records also refute this claim. Both false claims seem to be devices for the biographers to move Jesus' family to match each writer's ideas of what the real persons did.

Matthew records the invasion of Jerusalem by zombies, upon the death of Jesus. No secular historian recorded this amazing event, and it does not appear in the other canonical biographies.

Other Comments by Patrick McArdle

26. Comment #107939 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on January 5, 2008 at 3:38 pm

Hi all! I just started this topic on "raiding parties" in the forum. Please have a look and contribute. Thx:-)

http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=33112&p=602964#p602964

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

27. Comment #107944 by Mark Smith on January 5, 2008 at 3:46 pm

In what sense was the record of Acts and th Gospels a "rewriting" of history as opposed to a historical record?

Nice one ADH. Where would you like to start? Perhaps at the beginning. Matthew chapter 1 is a made up genealogy of Jesus in which history is rewritten in an attempt to tie Jesus into some of the key Jewish bloodlines. If you want a detailed account of how Matthew does this, try any of the academic commentaries. They will also tell you why – which is that the author ('Matthew') was concerned to try to prove to Jews that Jesus truly was the messiah. This Gospel goes on to rewrite history in many ways in an attempt to show that Jesus was the one prophesied by the Hebrew prophets. The flight to Egypt (Mat 2:13-15) is a good example.

Luke, on the other hand, rewrites history in a different manner, wanting to emphasise Jesus as saviour of the world (rather than Matthew's messiah of the Jews), so his genealogy is strikingly different. Fundamentalists try to reconcile the two genealogies, but most academics agree that the Gospels have at the very least 'been creative' with history at this point. And Luke is not so bothered about the Hebrew prophets, so his history hasn't got a flight to Egypt for example. Again, read the academic commentaries for confirmation of these and many more points.

This sort of thing is endemic in the Gospels. But more importantly, in other places they are simply incorrect – which is of course in its way a rewriting of history. There was no virgin birth (this being a 'pagan' myth written back in, because Matthew and Luke, but not Mark and John, thought it was needed) and there was no resurrection (this being a belief which arose to enable the first believers to deal with their cognitive dissonance resulting from their hero's death).

If you examine Luke's account you will find that it reflects 1st century Palestine rather well. The detail is meticulous.

Meticulous detail doesn't mean it isn't historical rewriting, just that it is more convincing to readers like you.

When you don't happen to like a historical record it's not good enough just to announce that the said account is a "rewriting" of history. You must be able to show that this is the case.

It's not a question of liking or disliking. First you have to determine the nature of the writing you are considering and then you have to read it in that light. The Gospels are not attempting to be 'historical records' in the sense of, say, a modern history book. They are 'gospels' ie attempts to convince their readers as to the truth of the good news of Jesus Christ. John 20:31: ''these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ'. Your apparent favourite, Luke, claims to be doing the closest to a modern history (Luke 1:1-4), and appears to be more concerned about detail, as you say, but that in no way means he was immune from rewriting those details in favour of the 'truth' he wants to demonstrate.

You must be able to present documentary or archaelogical evidence of wilful distorion. Where's the evidence? Does this site not pride itself in priorising EVIDENCE over wishful thinking? Let's have some evidence that history has been rewritten by Christianity. Otherwise I might be forced to conclude that the wishful thinking is actually on your side!

I've summarized a very small portion of the evidence above. There is a wealth more that has been set out by countless New Testament scholars over the last 100+ years. The wishful thinking is yours if you think it can be ignored.

Other Comments by Mark Smith

28. Comment #107957 by bruno_burned on January 5, 2008 at 4:52 pm

History is a narrative, not a fact. It is evidence-driven fiction. History is interesting, but not a good source for a belief system.
Our founding fathers were Christians, some more Progressive than others. They were also men. And white. And landowners. That does not mean you can claim America is a Christian Nation, a Male Nation, a White Nation, a Landowner Nation.
God was left out of the Constitution on purpose

Other Comments by bruno_burned

29. Comment #107976 by Patrick McArdle on January 5, 2008 at 6:04 pm

"If you examine Luke's account you will find that it reflects 1st century Palestine rather well. The detail is meticulous."

"Meticulous detail doesn't mean it isn't historical rewriting, just that it is more convincing to readers like you."

If anything, meticulous detail is more important for writing fiction -- it helps the reader to suspend disbelief. For example, Peter Fleming wrote travel books; his younger brother Ian, a former journalist, wrote contemporary fiction, with a travel component -- his James Bond was a true globe-hopper. Each man wrote in meticulous detail, but no one ever mistakes Ian's fiction for Peter's reality.

A much, much better standard for history is comparison to other sources, e.g. Flavius Josephus in this case. Even within Christianity's four canonical biographies, many "facts" will contradict a counterpart "fact" in another biography.

Other Comments by Patrick McArdle

30. Comment #107985 by Roland_F on January 5, 2008 at 6:56 pm

The Resolution 888 is just the start, after the presidential election favoring God's candidate and the transformation of the USA into a Taliban state, this will be the redesign of your cabinet ministries :

Ministry of Defense => changed to 'Ministry of holy crusade'
Ministry of Education => changed to 'Ministry of theological teachings'
Ministry of Homeland security => changed to 'Ministry of true virtue and faith'
Ministry of justice => changed to 'Ministry of Inquisition'

God bless America !!

I am living far away but these developments in your country are scaring the hell out of me.

Other Comments by Roland_F

31. Comment #108010 by liberalartist on January 5, 2008 at 8:22 pm

I emailed my congressman. But its probably a hopeless cause as he is a republican and this is the south. I told him to stop spending my hard-earned tax dollars on this crap - though I didn't use that word.

It is really freaking me out how religious our government is becoming. Has it always been this way and I just never noticed it before??

Other Comments by liberalartist

32. Comment #108045 by Patrick McArdle on January 5, 2008 at 10:34 pm

"It is really freaking me out how religious our government is becoming. Has it always been this way and I just never noticed it before?? "

The big-money boys, who have run the Republican Party for more than a century, allowed the fundamentalist godbotherers into their party, in exchange for shock troops and get-out-the-vote organization. While the big-money boys rarely allow the faith-heads to have anything substantial, the fundies do get token victories, like the Schaivo fiasco, and this contra-historical propaganda.

An Olde-Time, tent-revivalist, Jeebus-wheezing Huckster has now taken the lead for the Republican presidential nomination, and the big-money boys are scared. Allowing the vast majority of Americans to see the fundie fruitcakes in full march will result in massive electoral dysfunction, and the big-money boys know it. How they destroy or co-opt him will make for a great theatre of absurdist hypocrisy.

Other Comments by Patrick McArdle

33. Comment #108107 by JFHalsey on January 6, 2008 at 3:34 am

Thanks for the link, Clouds. I read that Resolution, and it scares the hell out of me. Seriously, I don't get how this could be a document in my government; it sounds like a church wrote it. I'll write my congressman... but I don't have any hope it'll do any good.

Other Comments by JFHalsey

34. Comment #108159 by mcadamsdj on January 6, 2008 at 6:22 am

Just wrote to my congressman, thanks for the template at www.talk2action.com. Does anyone else think it's just plain silly that they even propose resolutions like this? How about these instead:

"The first week of May will now be known as:
1. Be nice to your neighbor week
2. Feed a hungry child week
3. Don't drive angry week
4. Help an old lady cross the street week
5. Instead of going to church go to the library week"

Frankly, any of these would be better.
D

Other Comments by mcadamsdj

35. Comment #108164 by AshtonBlack on January 6, 2008 at 6:42 am

*shakes head*
So, we gonna have a reverse "Mayflower" soon.. to say Sweden?

hehe. (kidding, but this shit is scary!)

Other Comments by AshtonBlack

36. Comment #108191 by jimbob on January 6, 2008 at 8:17 am

Oops -- there goes #9 again!

Other Comments by jimbob

37. Comment #108245 by xenu on January 6, 2008 at 10:00 am

That is some scary stuff. I certainly hope this will not come to pass.

Other Comments by xenu

38. Comment #108399 by brue68 on January 6, 2008 at 6:22 pm

Randy Forbes is my local representative. I'm preparing to send an email to him now. I am going to link him to this book, as well. http://www.amazon.com/Faiths-Founding-Fathers-David-Holmes/dp/0195300920/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199672533&sr=1-1

Other Comments by brue68

39. Comment #108401 by MelM on January 6, 2008 at 6:29 pm

The Declaration of Theocracy!

Using the link provided by 'obscured by clouds': H. Res. 888

After a long list of "Whereas"s, the meat is in a four part resolution at the bottom (check out part 2):

"Resolved, That the United States House of Representatives----

(1) affirms the rich spiritual and diverse religious history of our Nation's founding and subsequent history, including up to the current day;

(2) recognizes that the religious foundations of faith on which America was built are critical underpinnings of our Nation's most valuable institutions and form the inseparable foundation for America's representative processes, legal systems, and societal structures;

(3) rejects, in the strongest possible terms, any effort to remove, obscure, or purposely omit such history from our Nation's public buildings and educational resources; and

(4) expresses support for designation of a `American Religious History Week' every year for the appreciation of and education on America's history of religious faith."

Other Comments by MelM

40. Comment #108433 by Atheist_from_Hell on January 6, 2008 at 9:56 pm

HR 888 is an apalling, apalling attempt by Christian fundamentalists to get a government endorsement of their religion, thereby paving the way for a Christian theocracy. This is the email I sent to my congressman:

Congressman:

I urge you to vote against HR 888.

Our government was established on the secular principles of freedom of religion, including the freedom to practice no religion, and the separation of church and state in order to avoid the violence and persecution and oppression that occur when any religious group possesses governmental authority. With this resolution the Christian fundamentalists in this country are seeking a government endorsement of their religion. Do not give it to them. I urge you to stand for a government that shows partiality neither to any religion nor to religion in general. Again, I urge you to vote against HR 888.

Eric Geisler

Perhaps that's not as intellectual as some of the other letters I've seen, but folks, the Christmas resolution passed 372-9 because most of our representatives are afraid of alienating religious people. If we want to this resolution to be defeated, we must write to our representatives to let them know that the people who want our government to remain secular and impartial with respect to religion far, far outnumber those who want to have the government endorse their religion.

"Mr. Jefferson, build up that wall!"

Other Comments by Atheist_from_Hell

41. Comment #108457 by AshtonBlack on January 7, 2008 at 1:17 am

Just a thought... has anyone told Chris Hitchins?

Might be worth trying to get his view of this!

Other Comments by AshtonBlack

42. Comment #108496 by Alter_GX on January 7, 2008 at 4:32 am

Looking through that thing(888), i found this

""Whereas numerous other of the most important American government leaders, institutions, monuments, buildings, and landmarks both openly acknowledge and incorporate religious words, symbols, and imagery into official venues""

Doesn't that go against the first amendment?

Other Comments by Alter_GX

43. Comment #108561 by jmrunning3 on January 7, 2008 at 8:04 am

Everyone, if you haven't already, please use the link above and go back to the original Daily KOS article. It has been updated with further information, including an extensive debunking of HR888's claims, as well as action items.

This is a HUGE opportunity to become vocal and show people how our country is being undermined by nuttery.

HR888 is a complete waste of time, but it can be used nefariously in the future to continue building a false history.

Act!

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44. Comment #108843 by Hooligan on January 7, 2008 at 5:57 pm

I've never really written to anybody from Congress . . . can anyone give me some pointers on how to write and not come off as too cynical and actually make coherent sense?

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45. Comment #108859 by OrbitalMike on January 7, 2008 at 6:34 pm

Now add the possibility of a creationist President (Huckabee, hickabee, whatever) and this H Res 888 becomes very dangerous.

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46. Comment #108947 by Synchronium on January 8, 2008 at 2:49 am

Nineteen Eighty Four anyone?

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47. Comment #109072 by annabanana on January 8, 2008 at 9:15 am

*cries* I just found out my Representative is one of the co-sponsors. I'll try to write him an angry letter, but can he vote against it if he helped write it?

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48. Comment #109811 by flistr8 on January 9, 2008 at 7:43 pm

The important thing to remember is your government representative isn't interested in your story, just your opinion. Briefly and clearly advise why you are against the bill. His or her office will tally public input either for or against and hopefully vote in concert with the majority opinion. Do not think it doesn't matter if you don't write.

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49. Comment #110321 by the_ultimate_samurai on January 11, 2008 at 1:44 am

Just wrote to my congressman, thanks for the template at www.talk2action.com. Does anyone else think it's just plain silly that they even propose resolutions like this? How about these instead:

"The first week of May will now be known as:
1. Be nice to your neighbor week
2. Feed a hungry child week
3. Don't drive angry week
4. Help an old lady cross the street week
5. Instead of going to church go to the library week"

Frankly, any of these would be better.
D

i wholeheartedly support number 5, or something similar to it, just some national day of reading, it would be nice if people took the time they spend in church in the library, but hell even one day a year for people to just go to the bloody library and read a book would be good.
i spent a good portion of my childhood in the library, i still go there when i dont have internet, my favourite is classical literature and non-fiction, it happens i love learning new stuff, there is more info on the internet than there ever was in my library, but i think in part that has to do with the lack of people IN the libraries. many good books end up being sold off so the library can keep running, that to me a sad thing, it means first there arent enough people buying library cards and second there isnt enough funding going to our public libraries.
the science section in my local library has no new book from the ones i read over 10 years ago. in fact its mass has reduced, encroached upon by the language section to the left and the health care to the right. the language section itself is somewhat abismal, more book assigned to slang and sign language than any other language, of the remaining languages there is english, german, and french, with no other languages available.
speaking of libraries:

JemyM said:

Once Christianity erased history.

Then ADH said:

That's quite a claim you're making for Christianity! If it succeeded in erasing it, how could you possibly know that it did? Which history did it erase? Have you got some kind of covert access to this putative history that has been denied to the rest of us? Maybe you could enlighten us!

In their efforts to convert the native population of Mexico to Christianity, Catholic priests collected and burned hundreds of thousands of Aztec and Maya codices in a single event, believing them to have been the words of the Devil--effectively destroying the entire history of civilization in America up to that point. There were many libraries renowned throughout the Mesoamerican world at that time, but of them, only four books survived the torch--four pitiful books which today make up almost all we know about an entire world and its people. It is as if they never existed.

Tragically, that is more or less precisely what the Christians did to the Roman world, when they came to power. It was a Christian mob which burned the Great Library of Alexandria to the ground. All the knowledge we have of Plato, Aristotle, and other Classical (pagan) thinkers, preserved in part by Greek-speaking scholars in the Middle East, is only a tiny fraction of the knowledge and history that was destroyed by the early Christians, and which will never be rediscovered.

JemyM was correct when s/he said that Christianity once destroyed history, except that it actually did so not once, but twice, in two different worlds, a thousand years apart. It's as Ingersoll said: "Give the church a place in the Constitution, let her touch once more the sword of power, and the priceless fruit of all ages will turn to ashes on the lips of men." The churches are ready and willing to rekindle the flame at a moment's notice, should they ever be given the power to do so.

the christians did that? i thought i couldnt find a new reason to dislike christianity. the burning of the library of alexandria stands to me as one of the greatest historical tragedies. the whole of knowlege of the ancient world, gone, burned to the ground. i thought it was sacked myself, many programms mention the burning of the library but never mentioned the reason it was burned, which left me to conclude it was in the chaos following the fall of the roman empire.
but the christians burning it makes much more sense, if someone sacks a library they dont burn the books, they steal them. and anything else. but christians have a very rich culture of burning books which continues to this day, people burning harry potter books, plus the burning of beatles records in the...60's was it?...if they dont like something or they dont like someone who made something they burn it. i think this predisposition in christianity for arson is something that should be investigated.
i think its an example of what happens when you raise children on symbolic representation of things as empirical. this "drink of this wine it is my blood, eat of the bread it is my body" and the act of communion puts this sense of symbolism in them, and all of the faith is symbolism, the cross is symbolic of jesus's sacrifice, the bread and wine of his body and blood, the many writings of the bible, its all symbolism. so its no surprise that they would attack something they see as a symbol of something they dont like. they view harry potter as a symbol of witchcraft, so to destroy the symbol is in their mind to destroy that which they dont like. they react against people who say things they disagree with by destroying their works, as was the case with the beatles, or often they will attack the person who said it, kill the speaker, kill the message.
and so of course the symbol of the old world, the old ideas, the old philosophies would be burned, they are symbols of what they hope to overcome, they are symbols of the pegans, and by destroying them, they seek to destroy that which they oppose. sadly its also quite effective.
of course as a result modern science and medicine was set back hundreds of years, they had to be rediscovered, and we are STILL to this DAY rediscovering things lost from the ancient world.

what a different world this would be if christianity taught to accept other views, not destroy them, if they never got power, if the knowlege of the ancient world lived on, what a different world we would live in today.

christians should never be allowed power, no religion should, history shows that is a dangerous mixture.

--edit--
have written my congressman as well

dear congressman,
i am writing today about a H.RES.888, i would like to emphasize very much that this bill should not be allowed to pass, it is not the place of congress to say what does and does not constitute history, that is the part of historians, by making a static bill saying what is or isn't history negates the possibility of revisions based on additional information, history is a constant process of revision based on evidence, a process that this bill would very badly injure. whats more many of what is outlined simply isn't true, and if it were true, by sheer virtue of being true would insure that it made its way into the history books. also the additional clause of having the first of may set aside to celebrate the religious nature of the country would constitute a violation of the establishment clause of the constitution. it would essentially be a government sponsored religious holiday.
this bill should not be allowed to pass.
thank you for your time.

(replaced his name with "congressman" in the above message, i didnt refer to him thus in the actual message)

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50. Comment #111498 by Peadar on January 14, 2008 at 8:02 pm

If any US citizens want to take action on US House Res. 888 you can do so via the Secular Coalition for America website.

http://www.secular.org/activism/

There is an email template which can be modified before sending to your representative.

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