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Monday, January 7, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Blind Faiths

by Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Thanks to Catalin Sandu for the link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/books/review/Ali-t.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Several authors have published books on radical Islam's threat to the West since that shocking morning in September six years ago. With "The Suicide of Reason," Lee Harris joins their ranks. But he distinguishes himself by going further than most of his counterparts: he considers the very worst possibility — the destruction of the West by radical Islam. There is a sense of urgency in his writing, a desire to shake awake the leaders of the West, to confront them with their failure to understand that they are engaged in a war with an adversary who fights by the law of the jungle.

Harris, the author of "Civilization and Its Enemies: The Next Stage of History," devotes most of his book to identifying and distinguishing between two kinds of fanaticism. The first is Islamic fanaticism, a formidable enemy in the struggle for cultural survival. In Harris's view, this fanaticism has acted as a "defense mechanism," shielding Islam from the pressures of the changing world around it and allowing it to expand into territories and cultures where it had previously been unknown.

With few exceptions, Harris sees Islamic expansion as permanent. Although this point is arguable, he bravely attempts to make the case that the entry of Islam into another culture produces changes on every level, from political to personal: "Wherever Islam has spread, there has occurred a total and revolutionary transformation in the culture of those conquered or converted."

In describing the imperialist nature of Islam, Harris suggests that it is distinct from the Roman, British and French empires. He views Islamic imperialism as a single-minded expansion of the religion itself; the empire that it envisions is governed by Allah. In this sense, the idea of jihad is less about the inner struggle for peace and justice and more about a grand mission of conversion. It should be said, however, that Harris's argument is incomplete, since he does not address the spread of Christianity in the Roman, British and French empires.

The expansion of Islam is perhaps more potent than the expansion of the Christian empires (including Rome after Constantine) because the concept of separating the sacred from the profane has never been acceptable in Islam the way it has been in Christianity. The Romans, the British and the French went about annexing large parts of the world more for earthly or material gain than for spiritual dominance. Under these empires, the clergy was allowed to propagate its faith as long as it did not jeopardize imperial interests.

Harris goes on to argue that the Muslim world, since it is governed by the law of the jungle, makes group survival paramount. This explains in part the willingness of Muslims to become martyrs for the larger community, the umma — uniting peoples separated by geographical boundaries, with different cultures, heritages and languages. According to Harris, this sense of solidarity is sustainable only with the weapon of fanaticism, which obligates each member of the umma to convert infidels and to threaten those who attempt to leave with death. That is, the aim of Muslim culture, so different from that of the West, is both to preserve and to convert, and this is what enables it to spread across the globe.

The second fanaticism that Harris identifies is one he views as infecting Western societies; he calls it a "fanaticism of reason." Reason, he says, contains within itself a potential fatality because it blinds Western leaders to the true nature of Islamic-influenced cultures. Westerners see these cultures merely as different versions of the world they know, with dominant values similar to those espoused in their own culture. But this, Harris argues, is a fatal mistake. It implies that the West fails to appreciate both its history and the true nature of its opposition.

Nor, he points out, is the failure linked to a particular political outlook. Liberals and conservatives alike share this misperception. Noam Chomsky and Paul Wolfowitz agreed, Harris writes, "that you couldn't really blame the terrorists, since they were merely the victims of an evil system — for Chomsky, American imperialism, for Wolfowitz, the corrupt and despotic regimes of the Middle East." That is to say, while left and right may disagree on the causes and the remedies, they both overlook the fanaticism inherent in Islam itself. Driven by their blind faith in reason, they interpret the problem in a way that is familiar to them, in order to find a solution that fits within their doctrine of reason. The same is true for such prominent intellectuals as Samuel Huntington and Francis Fukuyama.

Harris does not regard Islamic fanaticism as a deviancy or a madness that affects a few Muslims and terrifies many. Instead he argues that fanaticism is the basic principle in Islam. "The Muslims are, from an early age, indoctrinated into a shaming code that demands a fanatical rejection of anything that threatens to subvert the supremacy of Islam," he writes. During the years that this shaming code is instilled into children, the collective is emphasized above the individual and his freedoms. A good Muslim must forsake all: his property, family, children, even life for the sake of Islam. Boys in particular are taught to be dominating and merciless, which has the effect of creating a society of holy warriors.

By contrast, the West has cultivated an ethos of individualism, reason and tolerance, and an elaborate system in which every actor, from the individual to the nation-state, seeks to resolve conflict through words. The entire system is built on the idea of self-interest. This ethos rejects fanaticism. The alpha male is pacified and groomed to study hard, find a good job and plan prudently for retirement: "While we in America are drugging our alpha boys with Ritalin," Harris writes, "the Muslims are doing everything in their power to encourage their alpha boys to be tough, aggressive and ruthless."

The West has variously tried to convert, to assimilate and to seduce Muslims into modernity, but, Harris says, none of these approaches have succeeded. Meanwhile, our worship of reason is making us easy prey for a ruthless, unscrupulous and extremely aggressive predator and may be contributing to a slow cultural "suicide."

Harris's book is so engaging that it is difficult to put down, and its haunting assessments make it difficult for a reader to sleep at night. He deserves praise for raising serious questions. But his arguments are not entirely sound.

I disagree, for instance, that the way to rescue Western civilization from a path of suicide is to challenge its tradition of reason. Indeed, for all his understanding of the rise of fanaticism in general and its Islamic manifestation in particular, Harris's use of the term "reason" is faulty.

Enlightenment thinkers, preoccupied with both individual freedom and secular and limited government, argued that human reason is fallible. They understood that reason is more than just rational thought; it is also a process of trial and error, the ability to learn from past mistakes. The Enlightenment cannot be fully appreciated without a strong awareness of just how frail human reason is. That is why concepts like doubt and reflection are central to any form of decision-making based on reason.

Harris is pessimistic in a way that the Enlightenment thinkers were not. He takes a Darwinian view of the struggle between clashing cultures, criticizing the West for an ethos of selfishness, and he follows Hegel in asserting that where the interest of the individual collides with that of the state, it is the state that should prevail. This is why he attributes such strength to Islamic fanaticism. The collectivity of the umma elevates the communal interest above that of the individual believer. Each Muslim is a slave, first of God, then of the caliphate. Although Harris does not condone this extreme subversion of the self, still a note of admiration seems to creep into his descriptions of Islam's fierce solidarity, its adherence to tradition and the willingness of individual Muslims to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the greater good.

In addition, Harris extols American exceptionalism together with Hegel as if there were no contradiction between the two. But what makes America unique, especially in contrast to Europe, is its resistance to the philosophy of Hegel with its concept of a unifying world spirit. It is the individual that matters most in the United States. And more generally, it is individuals who make cultures and who break them. Social and cultural evolution has always relied on individuals — to reform, persuade, cajole or force. Culture is formed by the collective agreement of individuals. At the same time, it is crucial that we not fall into the trap of assuming that the survival tactics of individuals living in tribal societies — like lying, hypocrisy, secrecy, violence, intimidation, and so forth — are in the interest of the modern individual or his culture.

I was not born in the West. I was raised with the code of Islam, and from birth I was indoctrinated into a tribal mind-set. Yet I have changed, I have adopted the values of the Enlightenment, and as a result I have to live with the rejection of my native clan as well as the Islamic tribe. Why have I done so? Because in a tribal society, life is cruel and terrible. And I am not alone. Muslims have been migrating to the West in droves for decades now. They are in search of a better life. Yet their tribal and cultural constraints have traveled with them. And the multiculturalism and moral relativism that reign in the West have accommodated this.

Harris is correct, I believe, that many Western leaders are terribly confused about the Islamic world. They are woefully uninformed and often unwilling to confront the tribal nature of Islam. The problem, however, is not too much reason but too little. Harris also fails to address the enemies of reason within the West: religion and the Romantic movement. It is out of rejection of religion that the Enlightenment emerged; Romanticism was a revolt against reason.

Thus, it is not reason that accommodates and encourages the persistent segregation and tribalism of immigrant Muslim populations in the West. It is Romanticism. Multiculturalism and moral relativism promote an idealization of tribal life and have shown themselves to be impervious to empirical criticism. My reasons for reproaching today's Western leaders are different from Harris's. I see them squandering a great and vital opportunity to compete with the agents of radical Islam for the minds of Muslims, especially those within their borders. But to do so, they must allow reason to prevail over sentiment.

To argue, as Harris seems to do, that children born and bred in superstitious cultures that value fanaticism and create phalanxes of alpha males are doomed — and will doom others — to an existence governed by the law of the jungle is to ignore the lessons of the West's own past. There have been periods when the West was less than noble, when it engaged in crusades, inquisitions, witch-burnings and genocides. Many of the Westerners who were born into the law of the jungle, with its alpha males and submissive females, have since become acquainted with the culture of reason and have adopted it. They are even — and this should surely relieve Harris of some of his pessimism — willing to die for it, perhaps with the same fanaticism as the jihadists willing to die for their tribe. In short, while this conflict is undeniably a deadly struggle between cultures, it is individuals who will determine the outcome.

Both the Romantic movement and organized religion have contributed a great deal to the arts and to the spirituality of the Western mind, but they share a hostility to modernity. Moral and cultural relativism (and their popular manifestation, multiculturalism) are the hallmarks of the Romantics. To argue that reason is the mother of the current mess the West is in is to miss the major impact this movement has had, first in the West and perhaps even more profoundly outside the West, particularly in Muslim lands.

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1. Comment #108564 by agn on January 7, 2008 at 8:44 am

Spot on by Ayaan.
It is various forms of irrationality that are plaguing us, and hindering us from forming rational strategies to remove Islam from the minds of people, not reason.

A "cult of reason" is a contradiction in terms.

Other Comments by agn

2. Comment #108576 by jeepyjay on January 7, 2008 at 9:15 am

 avatarI'm not sure that AHA's use of the term "Romanticism" is quite the right one here. Perhaps it should be something like "Sentimentalism".

People like Mozart, Beethoven, Shelley and, Wordsworth were Romantics, but they were also Individualists and part of the Enlightenment.

I'm with Lee Harris as regards the fanaticism inherent in Islam. I call it the "Hum of the Ummah".

Other Comments by jeepyjay

3. Comment #108577 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 9:19 am

 avatarExceptional article by Ali...

A few comments.

People misidentify early Islam as a unification between church and state. The opposite was the case. The development of Islamic legal thought was independent of the state apparatus. The Caliphate, although endowed with religious titles was not the religious authority, but the political one. Courts were administered by religious authorities, since religion was superior to politics. Recent intellectual advances (if such a word applies) in Islamic thought have sought to unify state and religion.

I don't believe that Muslim cultures are different fundamentally in the way Ali and Harris imply. Tribalism was the ethos in pre-Islamic Arabia, and Islam provided an overarching religion to create a large tribe. The religion became the tribe and all the ethos that applied to individual tribes (warfare etc...) now applied to the overall religion. This tribalism is the same as tribalism in other places (Africa, Central Asia, Papua New Guinea etc...)

I think she is amiss in the accusation of fundamental intolerance. Moorish Spain saw a fairly tolerant Muslim rulership established by the deposed Ummayad dynasty. It also saw the rise of the most literal form of Muslim religious thought (Zahiri school). It seems a contradiction that they should exist together.

She tells us that Harris provides a broad definition of jihad. As a practical matter jihad is known in a militant form because of the assault by western powers that Muslim world has found itself under. The deeper intellectual tradition is one of a multifaceted religious principle. The famous scholar Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya (a doyen of the conservative Hanbali school of religious thought) delineated the various levels of jihad, placing the physical at the bottom, and at the bottom of the physical, the warfare. The idiom of today's jihad is one of violence.

The lack of reason and rationalism is what causes the social retardation that occurs in Muslim cultures. They are impervious to advances in science and other fields. Some (Saudis et al.) have been able to purchase the fruits of this enlightenment, but have not been able to produce any of their own.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

4. Comment #108584 by Nefrubyr on January 7, 2008 at 9:34 am

 avatarA bit got chopped off the end of paragraph 10:

"While we in America are drugging our alpha boys with Ritalin," Harris writes, "the Muslims are doing everything in their power to encourage their alpha boys to be tough, aggressive and ruthless."

Other Comments by Nefrubyr

5. Comment #108585 by padster1976 on January 7, 2008 at 9:34 am

 avatarI noticed a few familiar themes here,

The occurrence of the 'suicide' of the west. This has been peddled by various hate mongers such as Bill O'reilly. As well as the transformation of Europe into 'Eurabia' with all the immigration. I haven't really read much of Ayaan Hirsi Ali however out of principle I do support her and what she symbolizes. Also, is this not further peddling of the so-called culture war. Most of the right wing tabloid rags rant stuff like this.

Although I agree with her about the attitude of americans and the idea of 'exceptionalism' - a concept lucidly argued by Chomsky. His books are always illuminating. However, I get the feeling that this Harris merely wants to fight islamic fundamentalism with christian fundamentalism but Ali seems to skirt around the issue without naming it directly.

Overall, an interesting read.

Other Comments by padster1976

6. Comment #108587 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 9:40 am

 avatarpadster,


Remember that Ali now works at the American Enterprise Inst. A neo-conservative think tank that is dedicated to promoting a clash of civilizations that is only won with an increase in militarization and a decrease in personal freedoms here in the US.

We shouldn't support an atheist simply for being such. I criticize both Hitch and Ali for their Neo-conservative leanings. Ali is a guest at Enterprise because she is used as a tool for a more insidious form of racism and imperialism that the Institute promotes.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

7. Comment #108596 by Star Spangled Eagle on January 7, 2008 at 10:18 am

 avataral-rawandi:

I'm not sure I understand. Hasn't there already been a "clash of civilizations"? I mean for at least, I don't know, hundreds of years? I know you seemingly don't like the military approach, but I'm just not sure how much diplomacy can be offered while these suicide threats continue.

Other Comments by Star Spangled Eagle

8. Comment #108602 by eXcommunicate on January 7, 2008 at 10:24 am

 avatarWell, Western Militarism should not be discounted as a tool against Islam. Having said that it is a merely one tool in an array of tools we have at our disposal - not the primary one. But when we are egregiously attacked, the fanatics must be made aware that we are not above a shockingly overwhelming and decisive military response. I'm with Hitch in that eventually, some of the fanatics will look around at their overwhelming military defeat and wonder if Allah is really on their side. Granted, Iraq seems to muddle this issue, but the Afghanistan War in its first year was a good example of this. The problem in Afghanistan wasn't that we were too ruthless, afterall, it's that we pulled our punches and took our eyes off the prize. This is an error that grieves me to my core. Imagine the message sent around the world if the Taliban had been, for all intents and purposes, utterly obliterated in a matter of a year, and Osama bin Ladin and his top command all captured and killed. Such a shockingly swift lopsided victory would have sent the proper message, but no - we pull our punches, let bin Ladin slip away, give lip service to tyrants like Musharraf, allow the Taliban to regroup, etc., so we can go on wondrous adventure in Iraq. I'm confident George W. Bush and his advisors will go down in history as one of the least competent American administrations in modern times.

Other Comments by eXcommunicate

9. Comment #108604 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 10:28 am

 avatarStar Spangled Banner,

Good point. There are always clashes of civilization. I would agree our current one is difficult and precarious.

I am glad you challenge me for a solution. Diplomacy in the face of suicide threats is one way of looking at it. If you had a disease where the symptoms were rashes, would you prefer a cream to put on the rashes as they arose or a cure for the disease?

There are numerous causes in suicide terror. Many people here believe it is simply religion. All religioins actively discourage suicide in their texts. So blaming religion is simply wishful thinking.

The following go into creating a suicide terrorist:

1)State
(does he have one)
2)State
(is it oppressive)
3)Imperialism
(is he a victim)
4)Nationalism
(does he seek a state)
5) Solidarity
(do his people suffer, does he feel this pain too)
6) Religion
(can he interpret to make violence acceptable)
7) Economics
(is he poor, is he rich)
8)Mental state
(is he smart, dumb, insane)
9) Despair
(does he view death as a certainty in the conflict)

Those in no particular order, all contribute. How can we help alleviate those?

Religion is the most difficult to fix. If we fixed all those down to religion, and suicide terror persisted, I may inclined to alternate methods. But we haven't even scratched the surface on the others.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

10. Comment #108606 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 10:31 am

 avatareXcommunicate,



I'm with Hitch in that eventually, some of the fanatics will look around at their overwhelming military defeat and wonder if Allah is really on their side.


Years of poverty haven't helped them realize this. Why would extreme violence. They view death as a potential mercy, so floods and tsunamis can be blessings. Military defeat is punishment for lack of piety (in Muslim history).

So if they view military defeat as a call to be more religious, how does this solve the problem?

It doesn't and Hitch is wrong. But I don't want to be scolded for debating Hitch on this site again.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

11. Comment #108614 by eXcommunicate on January 7, 2008 at 10:51 am

 avataral-rawandi - Here's the problem with your list... There are many other countries and populations with everything in your list, besides religion, being on the negative end of the spectrum (hopelessness, victimization, poverty, etc.), that don't breed suicide bombers and death cult personalities.

Other Comments by eXcommunicate

12. Comment #108620 by Vinelectric on January 7, 2008 at 11:02 am

 avatar
...the way to rescue Western civilization from a path of suicide is to challenge its tradition of reason...



mmmm...NEXTTT !

Other Comments by Vinelectric

13. Comment #108623 by Fanusi Khiyal on January 7, 2008 at 11:06 am

Spot on analysis by Ayaan Hirsi Ali of one of the most intelligent thinkers alive oday.


People misidentify early Islam as a unification between church and state. The opposite was the case. The development of Islamic legal thought was independent of the state apparatus. The Caliphate, although endowed with religious titles was not the religious authority, but the political one. Courts were administered by religious authorities, since religion was superior to politics. Recent intellectual advances (if such a word applies) in Islamic thought have sought to unify state and religion.


Horseshit al-rawandi. I don't know who you are trying to fool, but some of us have actually read the Qur'an as well as books like the Sirat Rasul Allah. You know, the earliest biography of Muhammad, written by a pious Muslim? Was Muhammad not both a political and a religious leader - or was he not? Does the Qur'an not contain numerous laws to be enforced by the state - or does it not?

So please quit trying to snow us with this nonsense. Year one of the Islamic calender is the date when Islam became a political power - the Hijra. Islam is a political system, and there are no two ways about it.

I think she is amiss in the accusation of fundamental intolerance. Moorish Spain saw a fairly tolerant Muslim rulership established by the deposed Ummayad dynasty


More nonsense exploded by Bat Ye'or and Sam Harris.


As a practical matter jihad is known in a militant form because of the assault by western powers that Muslim world has found itself under. The deeper intellectual tradition is one of a multifaceted religious principle.


Yet more nonsense on stilts. Muhammad fought in 78 battels, 77 of those were aggressive war, and Islam expanded through jihad warfare to found a military empire, enslaving, degrading, and exterminating those poor souls caught in its graps. Witness the 60-70 million Hindus massacred by the 'tolerant' Muslim overlords after they swarmed over the subcontinent.

Question al-rawandi: How dumb and uninformed do you think we are?


I do think that AHA and Lee Harris both missed one important possibility: Thanks to the run-around performed by the multiculti horde of Chomskite 'useful idiots', nothing is done about this problem until it is too late. Which is when Islamic lunatics, either in Iran or Pakistan, gain WMDs and use them, either against America or Israel. Either of these retalliates in the only manner possible: turning the Arab Muslim world into so much radioactive ash. You may google "The Samson Option". And this would necessarily be accompanied by what would be at least be expulsion, and more probably be genocide of the Muslims populations within the West.

Yes, this will be hideous, and no, it will not be avoidable once things have gotten that far. The Twentieth Century showed what the West is capable of towards despised religious minorities that have done nothinng to deserve it. What exactly is it capable of against religious minorities that have done everything to deserve it?

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14. Comment #108625 by Vinelectric on January 7, 2008 at 11:11 am

 avataral-rawandi

Skip over whatever Fanusi writes.

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15. Comment #108626 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 11:11 am

 avatareXcommunicate,


Here is the problem with that explanation. Suicide attacks have occured in secular movements as well (Tamil Tigers, PFLP, PKK).

So no one has convinced me that religion is the SOLE cause. A cause, potentially, granted. An idiom for violence, yes.

Religion makes violence easy because it makes the world simple, and dichotomous (us and them).

However one can find that nationalistic goals are ubiquitous to suicide terror (see Robert Pape "Dying to Win"). Other than wishful thinking religion is not ubiquitous to suicide attacks.

Does xtianity promote suicide and murder? If you took your logic and applied it to the Leonidas squadron of the Luftwaffe you would have to say that xtianity caused their suicide attacks.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

16. Comment #108627 by Fanusi Khiyal on January 7, 2008 at 11:13 am

I should retract that comment about 'how dumb and uninformed...' Anyone who pays attetion to Vinelectric will get a somewhat skewed impression on that score.

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17. Comment #108632 by Vinelectric on January 7, 2008 at 11:18 am

 avatarIncluding you?

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18. Comment #108633 by stereoroid on January 7, 2008 at 11:19 am

 avatarI'm totally in agreement regarding the Romantic urge to Tribalism I see in the West - the urge to subsume oneself in a greater "mass" of humanity. It's visible (to me, an old fart) in apparently innocuous situations: mass culture, the explicitly Tribal nature of rave music (take E and Love Everybody), even "social networking" in the form of MySpace and Facebook. (No, I have not joined this site's "social network" either.)

As for accusations that Hirsi has aligned herself with Neo-Conservatives, I have to admit there's something to it. Some of what she said in the article had me thinking Ayn Rand, who's going to be re-exposed to public view when the film of Atlas Shrugged gets made by Brad and Angelina. I was reminded of the following quote from The Fountainhead:
Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.


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19. Comment #108634 by Gymnopedie on January 7, 2008 at 11:23 am

I must admit that it was writers like Sam Harris, Hitchens, and AHA that made me stop using meaningless blanket terms like Neo-Con, and Neo-Liberal. I feel we should all be mature enough to address arguments rather than build and burn straw-men. (I hope.)

I must say I'm utterly shocked that people (especially here) are still blaming the West in some sort of masochistic fashion for terrorist threats and terrorist attacks. Have you not ever listened to the terrorists? Have you never read the texts they claim to abide by? It's the equivalent of the "Stalin was an atheist..." but to the issue of terrorism/Islamic radicalism.

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20. Comment #108636 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 11:26 am

 avatar
Horseshit al-rawandi. I don't know who you are trying to fool, but some of us have actually read the Qur'an as well as books like the Sirat Rasul Allah. You know, the earliest biography of Muhammad, written by a pious Muslim? Was Muhammad not both a political and a religious leader - or was he not? Does the Qur'an not contain numerous laws to be enforced by the state - or does it not?


Muhammad combined both the poltiical and the religious. He was 'special' for Muslims, in that he received divine revelation, not other person after attained that. The Qur'an does speak of state and the actions required by state. It is a confusing document for a number of reasons, not least of which that it is contradictory. Still doesn't prove your point.

More nonsense exploded by Bat Ye'or and Sam Harris.


I was speaking in reference to the time. Since there were no atheist kingdoms we don't have an accurate comparison. By relative standards (at the time) there was tolerance, although not to a perfect degree, but then I never said there was a perfect degree. When the dust settles from your explosion can you elucidate on the point.


More nonsense on stilts. Muhammad fought in 78 battels, 77 of those were aggressive war, and Islam expanded through jihad warfare to found a military empire, enslaving, degrading, and exterminating those poor souls caught in its graps. Witness the 60-70 million Hindus massacred by the 'tolerant' Muslim overlords after they swarmed over the subcontinent


Agreed. Islam grew in a violent, bloody and offensive manner. I never tried to contradict the point. However when people think of Jihad they don't think of it in 7th century sense.

It is interesting you mention Hindus. The Moghul dynasty saw the participation of Hindus in the highest levels of government, an interesting thought to compare with the violence of the coming of Islam.


Simply because an insurgent in Iraq calls it jihad does not make it the same as a 7th century offensive. That is your wishful thinking. You are heaping things together to simplify your world. Violence is exhibited in a number of ways and in a number of idioms. Naming the manner "jihad" has no meaning, the person is motivated for a number of reasons, the word jihad makes them fell good. For me jihad is highly existentialist (if that makes sense), it is very relative to the person.

I can see you have some emotion wound up in this. I am not in any way trying to get Islam off the hook. I think Ms. Ali has an agenda, one that conveniently coincides with the neo-con agenda, hence her employment at Enterprise.

I agree totally with your last paragraph, well put.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

21. Comment #108638 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 11:30 am

 avatarGymnopedie,


I have read the statements, literature, and listened to the words. It is interesting that the terrorists don't target Sweden, or Norway, or New Zealand, or others. Why the US? I don't have a preconceived answer, I am truly curious what people think.

I don't have the answer to all of these things. But I will say, blaming all our problems on religion is foolish.

Religion occurs in the same part of the brain as a lot of other things. It coexists and militates in the brain in the same way other things do. Sam Harris is in the midst of proving this with fMRI research. Belief is belief, it is nothing special when you call it religion.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

23. Comment #108657 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 11:48 am

 avatarFanusi,


Did you seriously list Bat Ye'or? How about just pick an extremist Israeli settler and call them an expert on Islam. Almost every major scholar of Islam has criticized her use of evidence (very selective).

Sam Harris? A little better. Neither of these two have academic training in the field.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

24. Comment #108675 by jeepyjay on January 7, 2008 at 12:11 pm

 avatarIn response to Comment #108604 by al-rawandi, who says: "There are numerous causes in suicide terror. Many people here believe it is simply religion. All religions actively discourage suicide in their texts. So blaming religion is simply wishful thinking."

No it's not wishful thinking. The 9/11 terrorists had a state (they were Saudi Arabians), it was not oppressive to them, they were not victims of imperialism, they were not nationalists, their people were not suffering, they were not poor, they were well educated, they were not in despair.

Much the same can be said of the 7/7 bombers in London. They were comfortably off young men.

Only religion is left in your list.

Other Comments by jeepyjay

25. Comment #108680 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 12:17 pm

 avatarjeepyjay,


Some were Saudi. The state does persecute people, including the outwardly religious. They were acting in solidarity with their "Muslim brothers" in Palestine and Chechneya among others. They seek the creation of a state (albeit one with religious goevrnance).

So they missed the injunction AGAINST suicide? Either they adhered to religion or they didn't. Cannot have it both ways.

The 7/7 bombers are a much better case for purely religious motivations. But I would say they were brainwashed by people with other potential motives.


More people die of starvation and treateable diseases in Africa every day than were killed in those two attacks. I assume you are on an anti-poverty website being equally strident because you are consistent in your hatred of needless death.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

26. Comment #108689 by Fanusi Khiyal on January 7, 2008 at 12:26 pm

al-rawandi either disprove what Sam Harris or Bat Ye'or have said, or keep quiet. Ad hominem means nothing.



Muhammad combined both the poltiical and the religious. He was 'special' for Muslims, in that he received divine revelation, not other person after attained that.


Certainly. They only pledged themselves to imitate Muhammad, uswa hasana, al-insan al-kamil, and thus to eforce Allah's law on earth. Which they did. Hence the 'rightly guided Calips' and so on.


By relative standards (at the time) there was tolerance, although not to a perfect degree, but then I never said there was a perfect degree.


Sam Harris says it best "Islam was tolerant only by comparison with the nightmare of theocratic Christianity". Great. In other words, Islam, at its absolute best was a bit better than Christianity at its absolute, godawful worst. Wonderful endorsement.

And it was only relatively tolerant when the new territory was largely non-Muslim in its population, and enforcing the full horror of Islam was simply not possible. Then Muslim populations increased and everything went to hell.

Even leaving that aside, let's scroll forward to modern times shall we? By any standard, the more Muslim a nation, the more of a basketcase it is. Only three of the nations with 20% or more Muslim population count as free. In fact, we can safely say that the more Islamic a country, the more godforsaken it is, which just tells you everything you need to know about the religion.



The Qur'an does speak of state and the actions required by state. It is a confusing document for a number of reasons, not least of which that it is contradictory.


All the contradictions of the Qur'an have long since been hammered out by teh doctrince of naskh, or abrogation, whereby a chronologically later verse cancels out an earlier conflicting one. This is sanctioned by Qur'an 2:107.

What makes this even more unfortunate is that the later verses are the nastier ones. Take the seventh sura, the Verse of the Sword. According to one jurist, it cancels out 128 'tolerant' verses.



The Moghul dynasty saw the participation of Hindus in the highest levels of government, an interesting thought to compare with the violence of the coming of Islam.


And this somehow excuses a genocide over ten times that of the Nazis?



However when people think of Jihad they don't think of it in 7th century sense.


What people? How about the Ayatollah Khomeni, the spiritual leader of 10% of the world's Muslims, and his successor, both of whom are very clear that the idea that jihad doesn't mean Holy War is so much moonshine? Or the Al-Azhar University, the Vatican of Sunni Islam, which has echoed those sentiments? Or how about the number that support that kind of jihad according to the Pew poll cited by Sam Harris? Or what about those in the al-Jazeera poll that found a 50% support level of bin Laden? Or how about that al-Arabiya poll, surveying over one hundred thousand Arab muslims throughout the muslim world that found seventy-five percent of them were in support of HAMAS?

Or perhaps you are thinking of the British Muslims? You know, where forty percent support the introduction of Shariah law, twenty percent sympathize with the 7/7 terrorists? Or the leaders of the Mosques, 50% of which are Deobandi?

And so on.

You say:


For me jihad is highly existentialist (if that makes sense)


That's very sweet, even if it makes no sense. But hundreds of millions of Muslims see this very differently. And your 'existentialist' view of jihad means nothing in the face of that.

I'll finish by answering your comments about my person:


I can see you have some emotion wound up in this


Well, yes. When I see that there are 100 million people - at least , at the most optimistic estimate - who have declared that their purpose is to kill or enslave those I love, and destroy everything that I love and hold dear in this world, well, you may gather that I get somewhat irritated by that.


That is your wishful thinking.


Bzzzt, sorry, wrong. I have no desire whatsoever to know what I do, or to think like this. I would vastly rather concentrate on my studies and let the Muslim world go rot. I would far rather ignore the whole wretched thing. But the conflagration that Islam intends threatens everything that makes life worth living.

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27. Comment #108690 by Arcturus on January 7, 2008 at 12:27 pm

 avatarWhat a mess ...

There are always easy solutions, but they are never the best.

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28. Comment #108697 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 12:44 pm

 avatarFanusi,

Verse of the sword... 9th chapter not 7th.

Naskh, many Muslims do not even know what that is, or that it applies. That would mean the early verses (Meccan) would mean nothing religious, and are totally superfluous, yet they still receive mention in religious literature.

It is people like you who push people to make it look like they defend the idea of religion. Not the case.

I indeed said that by comparison to Christianity. That was the historical model.

Your statistics are old. Support for Al-Qaeda is dropping in the Peninsula. That is a positive sign. I hope the trend continues. (Support for Bin Laden had dropped to the teens I believe)

Jihad as an idea, seems to me, very existentialist (if that makes any more sense). I have no personal attachment to 'jihad', it is altogether meaningless to myself since I am not a Muslim. It is highly relative to the person. Surveys suffer in their methodology when I ask "Do you support the use of violence, yes or no?" What does that show?

It gets messy.

You are right, the more religious the less free, the less successful. Who is arguing that? You are debating yourself at this point.

But your tone is rather abrasive. Your tone sounds as hateful as any of the fundamentalists you so rightly detest.

I don't understand why if the religion forbids suicide, and people are devout, and they committ suicide, they are following religion to the letter.

That is an open question. I truly don't know.

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29. Comment #108698 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 12:46 pm

 avatarFanusi,


How many people die of disease and hunger? Are you as angry at the complacency of the west in the face of those epidemics? I would hope people are equally outraged.

Religion is a disease like any other. A plague. I would hope all plagues disappear and/or cured.

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30. Comment #108702 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 12:49 pm

 avatarFanusi,

As for critique or keep quiet. Harris said Muslims believe that Muhammad ascended to heaven on a winged horse. That is false, Harris made it up or wasn't sharp enough to catch the mistake.

If he is speaking of the Mi'araj it was not on a horse. The Isra' was on Buraq a white steed. Event then wings are not mentioned.

If you make things up, your book is suspect.

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31. Comment #108703 by Steve Wrathall on January 7, 2008 at 12:50 pm

 avatarComment #108638 by al-rawandi " It is interesting that the terrorists don't target Sweden, or Norway, or New Zealand..."

(CNN)Protesters burn consulate over cartoons - Feb 5, 2006 The violence came one day after protesters in neighboring Damascus, Syria, torched the Norwegian Embassy and the Danish Embassy..

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32. Comment #108704 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 12:52 pm

 avatarSteve,

They burn their own cars.

There are no active campaigns against those countries, save the irrational violence precipitated by a harmless cartoon.

If the burning the embassy constitutes war... then I stand corrected.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

33. Comment #108723 by weavehole on January 7, 2008 at 1:24 pm

Personally, I've never understood certain folk who decry multiculturalism and seem to want to step back to a time where East was East and West was Best. All muliticulturalism ever meant to me was that I could sit in a pub with workmates from Ethiopia, Ireland, Zimbabwe, Denmark usw and by turns laugh and argue.

Anyway, isn't multiculturalism just a corollary of Reason/Science. An extension to the knowledge that, genetically, we are all more alike than different? Reason, surely, is the best way we can trump the ingroup-outgroupiness of the religious... Fucking splitters!

...Sorry, i think that hippy i ate for breakfast is repeating on me.

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34. Comment #108727 by Gymnopedie on January 7, 2008 at 1:31 pm

al-rawandi

I'm not sure what your point is when you point out countries which have a recognizable Islamic threat and those that do not. First of all, there have been Jihad activity in some of the aforementioned countries (perhaps all of them). For example: http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1734869.ece. A critic of Islam is beaten in Norway by multiple men. She is an activist in Norway and does most of her work in Norway, so there is obviously a threat there.

Or a more familiar example would be AHA, which I need not recount here.

You cite brainwashing as the reason for the 7-7 bombers? We are talking about well off adults here. How about you get serious.

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35. Comment #108728 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 1:33 pm

 avatarweavehole,


You probably wouldn't fit in at the American Enterprise Inst. then.

There are people, both religious and non-religious that would prefer a monolithic society.

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36. Comment #108729 by quill on January 7, 2008 at 1:39 pm

 avatarI find myself disagreeing with Ayaan Hirsi Ali more and more. She seems to be building Islam up into something it's not. We all know it's dangerous, but there is such a thing as hyperbole, and it invalidates her argument that she does not seem to know when she crosses the line. Neither does the author of the book she's reviewing.

A violent clash between Muslims and non-Muslims is not inevitable--As soon as oil ceases to be a valuable export, what happens in the Middle East will be of no consequence to the rest of the world. And the way she describes Islam as a cancer rapidly spreading to all corners of the earth is just pure fantasy. All religion is declining, including Islam. With every year, the percentage of the world's population that is not religious increases, and the percentage that is religious shrinks. This is fearmongering worthy of Karl Rove. It's no surprise she's been working with those "Project for a New American Century" neocons.

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37. Comment #108730 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 1:39 pm

 avatarGymnopedie,

Religion itself is brainwashing. Adults who are brainwashed as children are likely to remain convinced. The fact that the bombers were adults is as relevant as the fact that they wore shoes.

As I said religion is brainwashing. The one doing the brainwashing (parent, priest, whomever) is the one who gets to put the slant he/she wishes.

Do you honestly believe well off adults went and suicide bombed a train for their religious convictions to a religion that forbids suicide. It doesn't follow. What made the suicide possible? They may say religion, but it may be religion along with other factors.

How about you get serious and answer the question.

People act as if 'religion' is this pure idea, independent of the human brain. It is a product of your thought the way any belief or idea is. So I ask how does your broad definition fit in an individual instance?

You cannot apply your general understanding of what religion is to the cognitive functions of everyone who claims to act out of a religious motivation.

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38. Comment #108732 by AllanW on January 7, 2008 at 1:40 pm

 avatarRe; comment #108723 weavehole

"isn't multiculturalism just a corollary of Reason/Science"

i fear it has developed into something far different. In practical terms (as professed and disseminated at the moment) it equates to or is another facet of that great shibboleth 'post-modernism'.

I was born in Birmingham in 1960. Half of my friends and schoolmates were either West Indian or Asian. Apart from childish squabbles (which had nothing to do with race but rather that Amjad nicked my compass or ruler) we didn't even think about colour, creed or cultural background. I'm quite proud of that.

I see many examples now of what 'multiculturalism' is. Essentially that anything someone does or professes from a non-white background (normally an ex-colony hence some of the guilt I suspect) should be respected and above all not judged or challenged as it is their 'culture'. I cannot think of an idea more opposed to reason or science.

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39. Comment #108734 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 1:41 pm

 avatarQuill,


Great point. Energy independence will get our soldiers out of there, and we can worry about ourselves again. Oil is a curse. Even for the Arabs.

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40. Comment #108736 by Acitta on January 7, 2008 at 1:43 pm

It seems from this review that the author treats Islam as a monolithic entity rather than a religion that is expressed differently in different countries. This kind of blanket condemnation is the kind of thing that has been used to excuse great evil. A lot of innocent people died in the bombing of Afghanistan and Iraq, who were not responsible for the evil perpetrated by the despotic governments that happened to rule over them. None of the Muslim believers that I see every day in multicultural Canada have tried to blow me up with a suicide bombs. In fact, the only major terrorist act originating in Canada was perpetrated by Sikh extremists and not Muslim, and their beef was with the government of India, not Canada or the west. It seems to me that civilizations have always clashed and that modern advances in mobility and telecommunications have simply brought cultural differences into sharper relief. While cultural conflict can be traumatic, new cultures arise from the interaction of older ones. From my point of view as a Canadian, multiculturalism has greatly enriched Canadian society. The various immigrant communities, for the most part, live in peace and respect one another. If the rest of the planet was like Canada, it would be a much better place, IMO. Condemning multiculturalism is misplaced. It is those groups, like the Muslim extremists, who don't accept multiculturalism that are the problem.

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41. Comment #108737 by quill on January 7, 2008 at 1:44 pm

 avatarYes, the only thing of value in the Muslim world is oil, and we have, what do you think, twenty years tops until nobody cares about oil anymore? I really wish Harris, Ayaan and Hitch would get off the "Muslims are going to destroy civilization" schtick. It doesn't help.

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42. Comment #108739 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 1:46 pm

 avatarQuill,


The numbers the Saudis told me was 100 yrs of oil. I think that is B.S. I would say 20-30 is accurate (increasing demand). The question is do we get off the oil bus before we run out and save our environment or not. The lobbyists will determine that more than anything else I am afraid.

I hope in 5 years we have viable alternatives.

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43. Comment #108740 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 1:47 pm

 avatarOh, and yes Muslims are the bogeyman. I have been trying to tell people that Muslims are basically people the same as us. But people like Fanusi keep pushing the "devil incarnate" nonsense. Most Muslims are decent people. Some aren't. That goes for everyone near as I can tell.

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44. Comment #108742 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 1:49 pm

 avatarAcitta,


Well put. Most people are decent people, Muslim or not. People see in their religion what they wish to see. Some see violence, most don't.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

45. Comment #108747 by weavehole on January 7, 2008 at 2:08 pm

Comment #108732 by AllanW

I see many examples now of what 'multiculturalism' is. Essentially that anything someone does or professes from a non-white background (normally an ex-colony hence some of the guilt I suspect) should be respected and above all not judged or challenged as it is their 'culture'. I cannot think of an idea more opposed to reason or science.


I hear what you say and I sense a whiff of the anti-politically-correct there but even with the PCPolice around I've never heard of anyone judge in any way but negatively; 'honour' killings, for example.

I guess picking and choosing is not just the favoured past-time of bible-bashers. But us multiculturalists can do it too (within Reason, of course).

;)

Other Comments by weavehole

46. Comment #108749 by AllanW on January 7, 2008 at 2:13 pm

 avatarweavehole "I've never heard of anyone judge in any way but negatively; 'honour' killings, for example.
"

And yet the statistics in just the UK (let alone the rest of Europe) for honour killings, childhood genital mutilation, forced marriages, kidnapping, shaman/witchdoctor murders etc have climbed in the last twenty years unchecked. The last time I looked all of these crimes were specifically prohibited in our country and yet they continue to be unpoliced; why would you think that is?

Other Comments by AllanW

47. Comment #108755 by al-rawandi on January 7, 2008 at 2:19 pm

 avatarAllanW,


The question is why do you think it is? Don't ask the question to make a point. Tell us what you think.

I am not English and would like to hear your opinion on the matter.

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48. Comment #108758 by weavehole on January 7, 2008 at 2:24 pm

Good question Allan.
Having not read in any detail any particular official reports, I'll hazard a guess that the communities/families involved are either not able or not willing to give evidence. With the result that the Police are hitting there heads against a brick wall.
Do you think there may be other factors?

Other Comments by weavehole

49. Comment #108761 by Sauveterre on January 7, 2008 at 2:35 pm

 avatar
Condemning multiculturalism is misplaced. It is those groups, like the Muslim extremists, who don't accept multiculturalism that are the problem.


Nice sentiments, except that by stating that Muslim extremists are a PROBLEM, you are stating that you disagree with their 'culture'. Which according to multiculturalism is no better or worse than ours.

Don't get me wrong. I think that regarding Islam as fundamentally different than other religions, or more evil, is simplistic. If Islam had 400 odd years of dilution and challenge, its adherents would justify non-literal reading of the Koran just as Christians overwhelmingly justify non-literal reading of the Bible.

But lets not pretend that Islam isn't disproportionately backwards as of right now. If a religion is used to justify murdering someone because they are gay, or they have insulted the name of a dead pedophile, then it isnt quite to the point where it can play nice with others. Or work in a free society.

Say what you want about Christians, at least they aren't killing/imprisoning people for heresy anymore.

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50. Comment #108763 by 82abhilash on January 7, 2008 at 2:41 pm

Just in case anyone got mislead Ayaan Hirsi Ali, was commenting in the work of Lee Harris not Sam Harris.

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