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Did mozzies, not a meteor, do for the dinosaurs?
by Daily Mail
Thanks to EJ Ashcraft III for the link.
Did mozzies, not a meteor, do for the dinosaurs?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=506440&in_page_id=1965
The theory goes that dinosaurs were wiped out after an asteroid smashed into the Earth 65million years ago.
But now it has been suggested they were sent into eternity by an equally catastrophic but somewhat smaller threat - biting insects.
Disease spread by mosquitoes, mites and ticks was probably the major factor that finished off the reptiles, say scientists.
The insects could have also made it harder for dinosaurs to survive by changing the nature of plant life.
Bees and other pollinators helped promote the rapid spread of flowering plants, leading to the loss of vegetarian dinosaurs' traditional food sources. As the planteating dinosaurs declined, so would their predators.
The theory helps explain why dinosaurs took so long to die off, say husband-and - wife team George and Roberta Poinar.
According to the most widely accepted explanation, the dinosaurs vanished after an asteroid or comet hit the Earth between the Cretaceous and Tertiary periods.
Another theory is that they were driven to extinction by massive volcanic eruptions in India, which led to extreme climate change.
But George Poinar, a courtesy professor of zoology at Oregon State University, points out that they did not disappear immediately.
Their extinction was drawn out over hundreds of thousands or even millions of years.
An asteroid impact should have led to an abrupt extinction, and climate change would probably also have wiped them out in a relatively short time, he said.
But emerging diseases spread by biting insects, combined with the spread of flowering plants, and competition with insects for plant resources, was "perfectly compatible" with a lengthy process of extinction.
The Poinars outline their theory in What Bugged The Dinosaurs? Insects, Disease And Death In The Cretaceous, published by Princeton University Press.
The professor said examination of insects preserved in amber found organisms which can cause malaria, dysentery "and other abdominal disturbances".
The infections the insects carried would have caused repeated epidemics that slowly wore down dinosaur populations, which had little or no immunity.
Professor Poinar added: "Other geologic and catastrophic events certainly played a role.
"But by themselves, such events do not explain a process that in reality took a very, very long time, perhaps millions of years. Insects and diseases do provide that explanation."
Did mozzies, not a meteor, do for the dinosaurs?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=506440&in_page_id=1965
The theory goes that dinosaurs were wiped out after an asteroid smashed into the Earth 65million years ago.But now it has been suggested they were sent into eternity by an equally catastrophic but somewhat smaller threat - biting insects.
Disease spread by mosquitoes, mites and ticks was probably the major factor that finished off the reptiles, say scientists.
The insects could have also made it harder for dinosaurs to survive by changing the nature of plant life.
Bees and other pollinators helped promote the rapid spread of flowering plants, leading to the loss of vegetarian dinosaurs' traditional food sources. As the planteating dinosaurs declined, so would their predators.
The theory helps explain why dinosaurs took so long to die off, say husband-and - wife team George and Roberta Poinar.
According to the most widely accepted explanation, the dinosaurs vanished after an asteroid or comet hit the Earth between the Cretaceous and Tertiary periods.
Another theory is that they were driven to extinction by massive volcanic eruptions in India, which led to extreme climate change.
But George Poinar, a courtesy professor of zoology at Oregon State University, points out that they did not disappear immediately.
Their extinction was drawn out over hundreds of thousands or even millions of years.
An asteroid impact should have led to an abrupt extinction, and climate change would probably also have wiped them out in a relatively short time, he said.
But emerging diseases spread by biting insects, combined with the spread of flowering plants, and competition with insects for plant resources, was "perfectly compatible" with a lengthy process of extinction.
The Poinars outline their theory in What Bugged The Dinosaurs? Insects, Disease And Death In The Cretaceous, published by Princeton University Press.
The professor said examination of insects preserved in amber found organisms which can cause malaria, dysentery "and other abdominal disturbances".
The infections the insects carried would have caused repeated epidemics that slowly wore down dinosaur populations, which had little or no immunity.
Professor Poinar added: "Other geologic and catastrophic events certainly played a role.
"But by themselves, such events do not explain a process that in reality took a very, very long time, perhaps millions of years. Insects and diseases do provide that explanation."
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Posted: Monday, January 7, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 77 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #108566 by Steve Zara on January 7, 2008 at 8:51 am
Daily Mail alert! Other Comments by Steve Zara
3. Comment #108567 by Friend Giskard on January 7, 2008 at 8:53 am
I'm disappointed. When I read the title I thought this was going to be about prehistoric muslims. Other Comments by Friend Giskard
4. Comment #108575 by clatz on January 7, 2008 at 9:12 am
I've seen many an animal on the savannah swot away pesky flies with their tales, perhaps that's how the Stegosaurus went...ouch Other Comments by clatz
5. Comment #108578 by Aquambulus hirsutus on January 7, 2008 at 9:21 am
Daily Mail alert!Here's The Guardian's version: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/jan/07/dinosaurs
Other Comments by Aquambulus hirsutus
6. Comment #108589 by Diacanu on January 7, 2008 at 9:46 am
Friend Giskard beat me to what I was going to say, lol. Other Comments by Diacanu
7. Comment #108598 by Steve Zara on January 7, 2008 at 10:21 am
OK, as this was in the guardian as well: This mechanism of extinction simply isn't needed. There are some indications that a very few large dinosaur large species may have survived for a while after the meteor impact, but there is very little doubt that the majority died out pretty much instantly.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
8. Comment #108615 by Vinelectric on January 7, 2008 at 10:51 am
Diacanu It's not just that you think alike, you both avatars that have no eyes/concealed eyes or something disturbing about them. I find them quite scary!!!
Edit: my eyes are concealed in a cool friendly pair of sunglasses (if you want to protest!)
Other Comments by Vinelectric
9. Comment #108622 by Corylus on January 7, 2008 at 11:06 am
Progress for the Daily Mail - at least they didn't say that a mosquito biting the driver caused Diana's death... Other Comments by Corylus
10. Comment #108628 by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy on January 7, 2008 at 11:13 am
Nah, that was what the daily express ran with. The daily mail would have gone with "Mosquitos clear the way for hoodies to take over our streets!!1!!1!"Other Comments by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy
11. Comment #108629 by bluebird on January 7, 2008 at 11:14 am
insects preserved in amber
This was in our area newspaper yesterday...
the internet article has 4 pages:
http://www.kansascity.com/238/story/421936-p3.html
The K.U. Natural History Museum is a neat place to visit:
http://www.nhm.ku.edu/
Other Comments by bluebird
12. Comment #108630 by sent2null on January 7, 2008 at 11:16 am
It should be obvious that lesser secondary and tertiary conditions attended the primary meteor impact and expedited the Dinosaurs demise. The use of the word "instant" in popular descriptions of theory is a most egregious practice that always has me wince in near pain. "instant" on a geological time frame can mean a 150,000 year long span...about as long as we've been walking around in our present form. I fear when these words are misused in relaying various theories on the progression of the dinosaurs demise it gives people (particularly theists) the wrong ideas. Anyway as Steve mentioned the majority of the large Dinosaurs bought it from the immediate and secondary effects of the impact in Mexico. The rest succumbed to the longer term effects that in a ravaged ecosystem will lead to the demise of any already crippled species, climate change, disease..etc. This idea is pretty obvious but I gather would be hard to prove without having many more fossils during the geologically small transition time between the Cretaceous and Tertiary boundaries. Other Comments by sent2null
13. Comment #108635 by Corylus on January 7, 2008 at 11:24 am
HAVNBThe daily mail would have gone with "Mosquitos clear the way for hoodies to take over our streets!!1!!1!"
You have a point. Or maybe "Mosquitos: Illegal Immigrants Taking Our Jobs!"
Other Comments by Corylus
14. Comment #108637 by Steve Zara on January 7, 2008 at 11:27 am
send2null:You are right. It looks like the dinosaurs were probably losing diversity for some time before the impact; probably most life was. Large impacts obviously do a lot of damage, but it looks like they need not cause mass extinctions. My impression is that the current understanding of the effect of the impact is rather confused. There were major effects, but not quite global. Also, some species that we would think where rather fragile to environmental changes (especially the acid rain that may would probably have been associated with an impact) survived, such as bees (requiring survival of flowering land lants over some area) and frogs (very sensitive to temperature and acidity), so it looks like other effects where involved in the dinosaur extinction.
And, of course, not all feathered dinosaurs went extinct...
Other Comments by Steve Zara
15. Comment #108640 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on January 7, 2008 at 11:30 am
Hi all, latest raiding link ...http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=33112&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=25#p606625
Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen
16. Comment #108641 by annabanana on January 7, 2008 at 11:31 am
Vinelectric, Diacanu's avatar is kind of sexy, methinks. It leaves the air of mystery...In regards to the article, I'm always fascinated by things like this. Parisitology was a great class. Plasmodium falciparun is my favorite (to study, I mean)!
Other Comments by annabanana
17. Comment #108676 by Enlightenme.. on January 7, 2008 at 12:11 pm
^ Hey, interesting couple of links there Bluebird, cheers.I like this bit;
"The big, glory-hog dinosaurs never mastered flight." (?!!)
BCWC;
"Hi all, latest raiding link ..."
Looking forward to checking this stuff out.. please [providence] give me more time!
...but, whilst I'd look forward for some raiders coming our way to engage in debate, experience suggests we should brace for disapointment!
Other Comments by Enlightenme..
18. Comment #108677 by posiedon on January 7, 2008 at 12:11 pm
It amazes me that anyone on this forum would read the Daily Mail, much less take it seriously enough to post a link.Whatever next? Articles from the Sun?
Other Comments by posiedon
19. Comment #108678 by AshtonBlack on January 7, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Why does it need to be one cause?Perhaps the meteor strike did the main damage and the vast amount of carrion lead to an explosion in the number of insects, which in turn carried more diease to the survivors.... well it's a theory.
:-)
Other Comments by AshtonBlack
20. Comment #108688 by annabanana on January 7, 2008 at 12:24 pm
AshtonBlack, do you mean a hypothesis? Or is it an actual documented theory? (I'm asking genuinely as I do not know) Other Comments by annabanana
21. Comment #108695 by AshtonBlack on January 7, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Ahh my mistake. I did indeed mean hypothesis.To be honest it was a little flippant but with evidence for both theories, one does not preclude the other.
Did mozzies, not a meteor, do for the dinosaurs?
I was just reacting to the tag line.
Daily Mail Headline: "Mozzies Cause Dino Death, Cliff Richard Unharmed."
Other Comments by AshtonBlack
22. Comment #108696 by Roger Stanyard on January 7, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Does amyome know the name fo the journalist who wrote the article? If the Daily Mail's track record is anything to go by, a basic knowledge of science is no requirement to write about it.Whoever wrote it is all over the place. We've known for donkeys that the dinosaurs were dying out long before the end of the Cretacious period.
We don't know that the Yucatan impact crater was caused by a meteor.
Indeed, the Deccan Trapps explanation looks to have been widely discarded by paleontologists as well.
The last time I checked there was still some debate about the end of the Cretacious being 300,000 years after the Chicxulub impact crater was formed but, I guess, such niceties are over the head of the Daily Mail.
Daily Mail headline: Illegal Cretaceous mosquitoes caused collapse in house prices.
Other Comments by Roger Stanyard
23. Comment #108699 by seqenenre on January 7, 2008 at 12:46 pm
On the possible explanations of mass-extinctions:"Catastrophes and lesser calamaties:
The causes of mass-extinctins" by Tony Hellam (Oxford University Press 2004)
He arrives at the conclusion that the meteor 65 MYa was a mere 'coupe de grace' and that there is no proof (or indication) whatsoever that a meteor played any role in one of the other 5, 6, 7 mass-extinctions in the last 500 million years
The main culprits of extinction seem to be: transgression and regression of sealevels, volcanism (flood-basalt provinces like the Deccan Traps; a lot bigger than even a supervolcano!) and lack of oxygen in shallow seas.
Other Comments by seqenenre
24. Comment #108707 by Steve Zara on January 7, 2008 at 12:54 pm
He arrives at the conclusion that the meteor 65 MYa was a mere 'coupe de grace' and that there is no proof (or indication) whatsoever that a meteor played any role in one of the other 5, 6, 7 mass-extinctions in the last 500 million years
I read recently a suggestion that the effect of the meteor (or comet) over most land areas was to kill, probably with a few hours of impact, just about anything large that could not burrow or hide somewhere. This explains why all (or just about all, depending on dating of fossils) large dinosaurs were wiped out, but some small mammals and birds survived. It was not so much a dinosaur-killer impact, as a large-animal killer.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
25. Comment #108708 by Roger Stanyard on January 7, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Steve Zara: My understanding is that birds were also nearly wiped out at the end of the cretaceous as well. Given that they are avarian dinosaurs, I guess it's not surprising. There were a hot lot of others that took a severe hammering such as forams and whatever made up the bulk of chalk strata. We lost the ammonites and belemnites as well IIRC. The Northern hemisphere marsupials all went.Other Comments by Roger Stanyard
26. Comment #108713 by D'Arcy on January 7, 2008 at 1:05 pm
Hey guys don't just pick on the Daily Wail, it also appeared in the Grimes and Daily Bellyache as well as the Guardian.The point is do we have to wait for 150,000 years for the extinction of Dinesh D'Souza? Or will the parasites (fleas included) adapt their insidious lifestyle to the warm blood then available elsewhere?
We know for certain that the dinosaurs did die out, the details are not known very well. Dinosaurs obviously were not able to adapt to the changes in the world around them and became extinct. No chance for the velociraptors and human children to play together as characters like Ken Ham would have us believe.
To people like him the universe was created on 23rd October 4004 bc, (was it 7.30 am?), and any mention of dinosaurs dying out 65 million years ago is just a darn conspiracy of godless scientists.
Other Comments by D'Arcy
27. Comment #108801 by Tagred on January 7, 2008 at 3:56 pm
I thought it was alredy fairly common knowledge that the dinosaurs were very much in decline long before the meteor?Other Comments by Tagred
28. Comment #108805 by Steve Zara on January 7, 2008 at 4:00 pm
I thought it was alredy fairly common knowledge that the dinosaurs were very much in decline long before the meteor?
It has been controversial, as the fossil record is sparse.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
29. Comment #108817 by Crazymalc on January 7, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Bastard Mozzies! Or, more precisely, bastard-parasite-that-lives-in-the-mosquitos-salvia!Anything that gives me malaria for two weeks gets no sympathy from me!
http://www.crazymalc.co.nz/2007/Jan/24Jan/24Jan.htm
Other Comments by Crazymalc
30. Comment #108824 by ianmkz on January 7, 2008 at 5:10 pm
say scientists...say husband-and - wife team George and Roberta Poinar
I don't think a husband and wife team should count as "scientists." It's not really peer review.
Other Comments by ianmkz
31. Comment #108894 by debaser71 on January 7, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Nothing new. About 15 years ago I saw a documentary on one of the science cable channels about how dinosaurs died, at least in part, to them being out of the loop when the relationship between insects and flowering plants started becoming more prominent.Other Comments by debaser71
32. Comment #108903 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on January 7, 2008 at 11:27 pm
We interrupt this program to bring you breaking news ...A few of us kicked off a little experiment and it has got quite interesting.
http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=33112&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
In particular the site :http://atheismsucks.blogspot.com/
... is currently a hot bed of activity. Why not chime in and try your hand with some quite articulate, often nasty and very confident theists? Enjoy, but try and play nice:-)
Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen
33. Comment #108904 by Atheist_from_Hell on January 7, 2008 at 11:28 pm
Vinelectric,My eyes are concealed in a cool, friendly pair of sunglasses too.
So :+p
Other Comments by Atheist_from_Hell
34. Comment #108906 by kraut on January 7, 2008 at 11:38 pm
I never knew dinosaurs had vanished. I thought they all had become members of the republican party.That is not an elephant in their logo - look closely. Its a triceratops in disguise.
Other Comments by kraut
35. Comment #108994 by Buddha on January 8, 2008 at 5:33 am
Because dinosaur fossils are relatively rare, the dating of the appearance and disappearance of a particular species can be difficult to pin down: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signor-Lipps_effectThe ultimate disappearance of the dinosaurs was instantaneous with the K/T boundary impact event, however, instantaneous in geological terms could be 100,000 years. Many species were in decline in the lead up to the K/T boundary and it is possible that some dinosaur species may have survived into the early Tertiary.
Other Comments by Buddha
36. Comment #108998 by tieInterceptor on January 8, 2008 at 6:09 am
I'm disappointed. When I read the title I thought this was going to be about prehistoric muslims.
mmm, I thought along the same lines ... I must be obsessing too much lately
Other Comments by tieInterceptor
37. Comment #109025 by lesferdinand on January 8, 2008 at 7:07 am
For now I'll stick with the meteor theory as it's logical and simple (the Indian volcano alternative sounds too contrived to me). I'm no biologist but I don't know of many examples (none TBH) in the history of the Earth in which evolutionary mechanics (in this case the rise of insects, flower plants and deceases) lead to complete worldwide eradication of the dominant species in a relatively short geological time span.Other Comments by lesferdinand
38. Comment #109070 by Buddha on January 8, 2008 at 9:08 am
but I don't know of many examples (none TBH) in the history of the Earth in which evolutionary mechanics (in this case the rise of insects, flower plants and deceases) lead to complete worldwide eradication of the dominant species in a relatively short geological time span.
The rise of Homo Sapiens is a very good example of evolutionary mechanics leading to the widespread demise of the dominant species. We are currently undergoing possibly the biggest extinction event in Earth's history, primarily due to our activities.
Other Comments by Buddha
39. Comment #109073 by annabanana on January 8, 2008 at 9:20 am
Yes, I just saw a program on the discovery channel (not that they're always accurate) about the australopithecus (one of our hominid ancestors, what Lucy was) and at the time things like ancestors of the big cats and ancestors of the elephants were the top predators at the time. Australopithecus was the prey for some of these animals. Obviously, we eventually became top predators.EDIT: Instead of one of our hominid ancestors, read our possible hominid ancestor.
Other Comments by annabanana
40. Comment #109074 by Steve Zara on January 8, 2008 at 9:22 am
We are currently undergoing possibly the biggest extinction event in Earth's history, primarily due to our activities.
Not quite yet. The permian extinction killed of 95% of all non-microbial species. We would have a problem achieving even a fraction of that even with a full-out nuclear war.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
41. Comment #109092 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on January 8, 2008 at 10:01 am
Hey guys, if you get a moment there are theists who need your help here : http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=33112&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen
42. Comment #109200 by Deepthought on January 8, 2008 at 2:58 pm
I just read The Lost World by Michael Crichton and I would like to know about the theories he proposed in his book. For example there is an entire section on how life could have self-organizing tendancies and that behavoir could too. Another is his theory that a behavoiral change contributed to the extinction of the dinosaurs. Other Comments by Deepthought
43. Comment #109479 by Buddha on January 9, 2008 at 5:44 am
Not quite yet. The permian extinction killed of 95% of all non-microbial species. We would have a problem achieving even a fraction of that even with a full-out nuclear war.
E.O. Wilson, The Future of Life (2002), estimates that up to 50% of all species could be extinct within 100 years, bearing in mind that the end-Permian extinction occured over a few million years. The rate of extinction of the past 50 years is now reckoned to exceed that of the dinosaurs.
Other Comments by Buddha
44. Comment #109480 by lesferdinand on January 9, 2008 at 5:47 am
"The rise of Homo Sapiens is a very good example of evolutionary mechanics leading to the widespread demise of the dominant species."True, hadn't thought of that one. Probably too near or something :) Though like the predators we replaced at the top of the food chain, we're mamals.
Other Comments by lesferdinand
45. Comment #109556 by Diacanu on January 9, 2008 at 7:18 am
annabanana-Diacanu's avatar is kind of sexy, methinks. It leaves the air of mystery...
*Blush*
Well now I really gotta get me a hat, a cloak, and a sword, and grow my hair out.
Other Comments by Diacanu
46. Comment #109576 by annabanana on January 9, 2008 at 8:10 am
Diacanu,I wouldn't recommend carrying the sword around in public...
What is your avatar from, by the way?
It looks very gamerish...reminds me of the PS2 game Onimusha or something like that...
Other Comments by annabanana
47. Comment #109579 by Diacanu on January 9, 2008 at 8:15 am
It's from the anime "Vampire Hunter D".The original is a little corny in places, but the sequel kicks ass.
There was a video game of it too.
Other Comments by Diacanu
48. Comment #109580 by Steve Zara on January 9, 2008 at 8:18 am
E.O. Wilson, The Future of Life (2002), estimates that up to 50% of all species could be extinct within 100 years, bearing in mind that the end-Permian extinction occured over a few million years. The rate of extinction of the past 50 years is now reckoned to exceed that of the dinosaurs.
I realise that this is E.O. Wilson, but I am going to bravely disagree with him. Nothing we could possibly do could compare to the permian extinction. We simply don't have the technology or energy to flood vast areas of continents with molten lava, for example. Also, 50% of species is not 95%, and the permian extinction took place over tens of thousands of years, not millions. It took millions for the recovery.
We do like to think of the human race as all-powerful, but we really aren't. We can certainly manage a substantial extinction of major land and sea animals, but most species will probably hardly notice. To be pedantic, if you include microbes, anything we could do would be utterly insignificant.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
49. Comment #109582 by annabanana on January 9, 2008 at 8:28 am
To be pedantic, if you include microbes, anything we could do would be utterly insignificant.
Steve, don't forget that the 95% was in reference to all NON-microbial species...If the 95% were adjusted to bear in mind the microbes, it may in fact be closer to the 50% that we are approaching now...
I agree, though, that no matter what happens, the microbes will be sufficient to make it seem meaningless...
Diacanu, Anime, eh? I always liked anime from a distance...
Other Comments by annabanana
50. Comment #109585 by Diacanu on January 9, 2008 at 8:31 am
annabanana-Diacanu, Anime, eh? I always liked anime from a distance...
I went through a phase.
Mostly out of it, but there's a handful of titles I still have a nostalgic affection for.
Other Comments by Diacanu
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1. Comment #108565 by hungarianelephant on January 7, 2008 at 8:44 am
Other Comments by hungarianelephant