1. Comment #109136 by Gymnopedie on January 8, 2008 at 12:24 pm

Looking back, it was a REALLY bad year for the old man in the sky. Poor God, so persecuted.

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2. Comment #109140 by Tyaddow on January 8, 2008 at 12:28 pm

It was a great year for god! Imagine what terrible characters gods would be if they did exist! Great for them that they don't, and that this past year has been one of the greatest in recent times to popularize the reasons by which their existence may be justifiably rejected.

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3. Comment #109141 by Atheist112 on January 8, 2008 at 12:30 pm

It was a good year for us atheists and a bad year for god. Thats a victory in it of itself. Great book I loved it.

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4. Comment #109146 by Verylee on January 8, 2008 at 12:39 pm

"Creative ideas" as in "Intelligently Designed"?!

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5. Comment #109149 by ianmkz on January 8, 2008 at 12:43 pm

If God created the universe and therefore exists outside the universe, he also exists outside of time

so God can't have a year, good, bad or otherwise.

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6. Comment #109155 by AshtonBlack on January 8, 2008 at 1:00 pm

"No, no, no but god is in everything, even up my bum, so he CAN have a bad year!! It says so in my, Bumper Book of Bible Bollocks."






(just in case..... /sarcasm!)

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7. Comment #109159 by Mr DArcy on January 8, 2008 at 1:03 pm

ianmkz is right. Time is meaningless to the celestial tsar, in just the same way as he, God, is meaningless to me.

Just the thought of all those self righteous, pompous and closed minded religios getting upset about their beliefs being ACTUALLY questioned, cheers me up no end.

The bastard priests and their apologists have had their sway for far too long. Time for some payback!

No sorry, we can't give change for a lost soul!

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8. Comment #109168 by JamieR on January 8, 2008 at 1:18 pm

Religion is a learning disorder in my opinion when i was in school i had trouble learning things specially math as i wasn't interested or curious not because of religion though in my case i never believed in god I'm not that dumb. If religion stops curiosity and interest in the world then thats is a big deal because interest and curiosity helps you learn big time as i have discovered in my experience so they wont be able to learn evolution of course religion would only affects the thing that religion claims to have the answer to already it only makes it harder for kids to learn things like evolution

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9. Comment #109171 by KRKBAB on January 8, 2008 at 1:34 pm

Don't forget, in America (and everywhere else, for that matter) what a conservative believed 50 years ago compared to what a con. believes now, is a lot different- thanks to the "ever changing moral zeitgeist".
I'm an American and a liberal (on most issues, except our horrific illegal immigration issue) and I have to keep reminding myself of the afore mentioned point. It's very similar to the belief in god, thanks to the "god of the gaps". Yes, I know the fundies in the USA are getting louder, but it's only because they're slowly getting cornered by the changing moral zeitgeist! They're like cornered animals acting out defensively. Isn't it wonderful!
The so- called "New Atheists" are only taking fundies to the task and exposing them. Maybe I'm being a little too optimistic. I know the damage that fundies can do (in all religions) is currently huge. And as much as I want to get behind the idea of moderates enabling extremists (it's true, but only to a certain extent), if I step back and take a look at it, it seems to be a bit alarmist to me.
But to re-cap; YES, it's been a bad year for (the concept of) god. We're heading in the right direction, despite the terrorists and the intelligent design nuts.
Up next- lets take on all the pseudo science crap that's polluting our world. It's VERY unfortunate that many "liberals" in my country are all caught up in some sort of mystical psuedo-science bullshit.

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10. Comment #109173 by Goldy on January 8, 2008 at 1:50 pm

Could be worse - God's died once before...
http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19660408,00.html

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11. Comment #109174 by Foth on January 8, 2008 at 1:53 pm

I'm a Christian and I feel persecuted for my beliefs by all these conniving atheists, blah blah blah!

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12. Comment #109175 by bujin on January 8, 2008 at 1:56 pm

It was a bad year for God indeed.

You'd think he's taken so much crap over the past year or two that he'd do something to prove his existence...

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13. Comment #109176 by robotaholic on January 8, 2008 at 1:56 pm

I absolutely LOVED that book and it's definitely in my top 10 books of all time

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14. Comment #109185 by 210karman on January 8, 2008 at 2:17 pm

Suggestions for marketing:-

1) Make the whole book available online in Arabic for free.
2) Send a free signed copy to some premier country music stars with a polite letter asking for they're opinions and try to arrange a TV interview / debate to discuss why God is so fundamental to Country Music. My first choices would be Steve Earle, Emmy Lou Harris, Nanci Griffith, Allison Krauss, Gillian Welch, Dolly Parton, John Prine and Kris Kristofferson. These people are at least metaphorically Gods of the genre.
3)Any collaboration with Michael Moore possible? Or Borat ?)

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15. Comment #109189 by righton on January 8, 2008 at 2:37 pm

08 could be worse. Does anyone know anything about the paperback book tour yet?

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16. Comment #109191 by alexmzk on January 8, 2008 at 2:44 pm

let's face it, God has a pretty shit time all year, every year.

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17. Comment #109194 by Ian Bamlett on January 8, 2008 at 2:52 pm

You'd think he's taken so much crap over the past year or two that he'd do something to prove his existence...

Oh but he did! A theist colleague of mine won a few hundred bucks on the lottery right before christmas. She'd been a bit short and had prayed to God to help her buy presents for her kids.

She told me triumphantly, (knowing I am atheist), if that wasn't a proof of God she didn't know what was.

I'm sorry you didn't get to hear about it; it should have been in all the papers it being the absolute proof of a divine power and all....



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18. Comment #109195 by AdrianB on January 8, 2008 at 2:52 pm

robotaholic - you should buy your dad the book!

(Good luck in that department.)

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19. Comment #109196 by weavehole on January 8, 2008 at 2:53 pm

NO SUICIDE BOMBINGS

Erm, Tamil Tigers, anyone?

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20. Comment #109199 by LorienRyan on January 8, 2008 at 2:57 pm

It was a bad year for lies and bullshit. Hopefully the future will be better for childrens opportunity to learn more about reason and critical thinking. I haven't read TGD, don't think I need to, but will buy the paperback edition - hope it's a good read.

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21. Comment #109203 by bliktor on January 8, 2008 at 3:05 pm

True it was a bad year for God, but seeing that about 80% of the planet still takes God's existence as a serious notion, I'd have to say it wasn't nearly bad enough.

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22. Comment #109204 by Beteo on January 8, 2008 at 3:05 pm

Yes, paperback book tour info please... I heard RD was coming to the southern US but there is no info in the 'Events' ....

Hey RD, Coming anywhere Tennessee?

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23. Comment #109210 by marcomerlin on January 8, 2008 at 3:16 pm

I also loved this book. I strongly recommend it to be read right after "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark", by the ever missing Carl Sagan.
Man, what a great duo he would have done with Richard Dawnkins, in this marvelous god-fighting science-embracing mormon-and-chuck-norris-supported-candidates era!

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24. Comment #109212 by rthille on January 8, 2008 at 3:18 pm

Thinking about tithing and such, I thought that I should start putting my money where my mouth is. So I put in an Amazon order for 10 copies of TGD in paperback to hand out.

I'll probably keep it up with various other titles. Does anyone have any suggestions for which books would be good 'conversion' material? I really like 'Sense and Goodness without God' by Richard Carrier, for its well founded argument against the existence of god(s), but I'm not sure it'd win many converts because the intro philosophy in one of the early chapters was quite the slog...

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25. Comment #109214 by krisking on January 8, 2008 at 3:23 pm

So I put in an Amazon order for 10 copies of TGD in paperback to hand out.

Congratulations. Has Richard Dawkins finally elevated himself to the status of God?

.......with atheists as his worshippers!

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26. Comment #109215 by LorienRyan on January 8, 2008 at 3:25 pm

Be good to see more books and/or media about people's experiences of coming out of belief in God/religion - how they dealt with it, etc. Something current believers would probably relate to more.

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27. Comment #109217 by quill on January 8, 2008 at 3:27 pm

rthille, Losing Faith in Faith is a good introductory volume, by Dan Barker. That is, if your comment was serious.

But honestly, if you have money to waste like that, donate to UNICEF.

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28. Comment #109218 by Devolution on January 8, 2008 at 3:29 pm

Thank you professor for writing such a powerful and successful book. It helped to warm my dark, evilutionist(sp) heart

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29. Comment #109220 by rthille on January 8, 2008 at 3:34 pm

What work does UNICEF do to end religion? Does the work it does with children help them to shake off the mental shackles of religious indoctrination? I'd sooner donate to the RDF based on what I know so far. But this is on a more personal note. I'm buying books to give to people I know who might be 'on the fence'. Why would that be a waste of money?

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30. Comment #109221 by Robert Maynard on January 8, 2008 at 3:36 pm

weavehole said

"NO SUICIDE BOMBINGS"

Erm, Tamil Tigers, anyone?

The issue has been raised before [edit: in this forum], and it has been rationalised by myself and others that although the Tamil Tigers operate for a secular, nationalistic cause, pretending that their willingness to commit suicide is not the least bit influenced by their belief in karma and reincarnation (as hinduists) is ridiculous.

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31. Comment #109223 by 10 on January 8, 2008 at 3:43 pm

I just got my copy in the mail today.
/cheer

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32. Comment #109227 by krisking on January 8, 2008 at 3:46 pm

The issue has been raised before, and it has been rationalised by myself

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze

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33. Comment #109229 by CJ22 on January 8, 2008 at 3:50 pm

@krisking: Ha, ha, nice one. Nobody ever said that on these forums. That bit about Dawkins having worshippers etc. Awesome original thinking! Laugh? I nearly did! you rok!

Other Comments by CJ22

34. Comment #109232 by Deepthought on January 8, 2008 at 3:56 pm

Someone in "The Ugly" section did though.

Atheism is a religion. You believe in science. You have beliefs. And Dawkins is your God.

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35. Comment #109233 by krisking on January 8, 2008 at 4:01 pm

CJ22

That bit about Dawkins having worshippers etc.

You don't believe me? Just watch this woman talking about Dawkins!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-808547712754338659

Other Comments by krisking

36. Comment #109235 by RJC on January 8, 2008 at 4:02 pm

Write an op-ed for the New York Times on the intersection of faith and politics in the UK versus the US. Point out that in the UK, politicians are not afraid to declare themselves atheists. Lament that in the US, every presidential candidate from both parties feels compelled to profess faith in Jesus. Note, of course, that Republicans are far worse, with candidates openly rejecting evolution and affirming that every word (every word!) of the Bible is true. In the tagline to the op-ed, mention the title of the book. Also do another round of TV interviews, decrying the role of religion is US politics. Call America stupid. That will garner attention. As an added bonus, it's true.

Other Comments by RJC

37. Comment #109236 by Veronique on January 8, 2008 at 4:03 pm

24. Comment #109212 by rthille

I have three TGDs and I lend them out to people. I think if you have copies of all the four horsemen's books, you can't go wrong. I would add Grayling's little polemical essays as well.

It's more de-conversion. By calling it conversion, you just play right in the hands of people like Krisking. Take care with your wording.

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

38. Comment #109239 by Steve Zara on January 8, 2008 at 4:07 pm

You don't believe me? Just watch this woman talking about Dawkins!

I hope you don't mind me asking, but are you serious about some of the questions you post, or are you trying to be provocative? (Not that there is anything wrong with that)

It is clearly silly to claim that anyone worships Dawkins as a God. There may, for some enthusiastic newish atheists who have found their doubts supported by TGD, be some hero worship. But Dawkins has been a hero for many of us for some time, joining the ranks of Sagan, Bronowski and others who have opened our minds to new and exciting ideas.

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39. Comment #109241 by Veronique on January 8, 2008 at 4:18 pm

Julia Sweeney is a stand-up comedienne. If one is incapable of recognising her over the top comedic style, then pity is all I can feel.

To use a comedian as an example of "worship" is disingenuous to say the least.

I agree with you Steve, Dawkins and Sagan have been heroes of mine for decades. Their works have added to the knowledge I have gained about cosmology, evolution and just plain common sense.

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

40. Comment #109242 by LorienRyan on January 8, 2008 at 4:23 pm

I would recommend everyone read, Carl Sagan - The Demon Haunted World, Bertrand Russell - Why I Am Not a Christian, and A.F. Chalmers - What is this thing called Science? I haven't found any essentially new idea's since reading these three books, although it is nice to see good idea's in different formats.

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41. Comment #109243 by Veon on January 8, 2008 at 4:25 pm

This was the year I was saved.
So that is one down for you God.

Other Comments by Veon

42. Comment #109246 by Devolution on January 8, 2008 at 4:31 pm

krisking,

Wow the Tamil Tigers and Kamikazis all in one post? Just mention Hitler and Stalin for us and make it an ignorance trifecta!

Can you tell us how these shining examples of atheism commited their acts in the name of atheism?

Thought not.

Other Comments by Devolution

43. Comment #109247 by LorienRyan on January 8, 2008 at 4:37 pm

There is nothing more liberating than experiencing the ability to critically think for yourself and cut through all of the propaganda and nonsense the world seems to be so full of. It's great to have people like Dawkins, Harris and Dennett spreading the real good news, well, the real news anyway.

Other Comments by LorienRyan

44. Comment #109248 by SurfDude on January 8, 2008 at 4:37 pm

Veon,

I am curious to know what you were saved from and when you say "down" regarding God, is that a good thing?

Thanks in advance for the clarification.

Other Comments by SurfDude

45. Comment #109249 by Corylus on January 8, 2008 at 4:38 pm

Steve Thank you for mentioning Jacob Bronowski. Brings back memories. I was too young to watch and understand his 'Ascent of Man' TV series when it first came out, but I have seen it since (and read the book) and it is quite lovely.

Krisking do check it out of your nearest library - I think you are the type of person who would enjoy it. Forget for a time the question of god and instead wonder at the heights to which we aspire and cry at the depths to which we sink.

I have just looked on amazon and it is out on DVD - my Chrimbo vouchers wiped out - but worth it.

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46. Comment #109252 by Diacanu on January 8, 2008 at 4:46 pm

Krisking-

You don't believe me? Just watch this woman talking about Dawkins!

You've trolled with that before.
Stop being an asshole.

Other Comments by Diacanu

47. Comment #109253 by Steve Zara on January 8, 2008 at 4:49 pm

It's more de-conversion. By calling it conversion, you just play right in the hands of people like Krisking. Take care with your wording.

Indeed. I and think I can express things in a way that may help clarify this. This is hopefully on-topic (as it may, in a small way, help make 08 a worse year for "God").

There is much confusion in these discussions, because the religious assume that atheism and religion are either equivalent or opposite. That is false. They aren't even in the same category of thing. To put it simply...

The opposite of atheism is not religion, but theism.

Theism is not religion. It is simply a belief that a God or Gods exist. One can believe that and absolutely nothing else on that subject. In spite of what some religious argue, bare theism alone tells you nothing. Nothing about creation, morals, or the afterlife... nothing.

In order to get those, you have to add bits on. The idea that God is a person (or persons), that He/She/They is/are good/evil/uncaring, that there is Heaven/Hell/Limbo and so on.

Religious people often tend to think you get all those bits "for free" simply by believing in God. You don't - each has to be justified.

Atheism is as "bare" as basic theism, but simpler. It has no extra bits, no moral guidelines. You can add extras to make up all sorts of belief systems: Buddhism, Humanism, Communism, whatever. But those don't come "attached" to atheism.

This shows that going from a religion to atheism is clearly a 'de' conversion. Once at atheism, you can then build up a new set of beliefs that don't depend on the existence of God(s).

I believe this helps with the "atheist morals" debate. If someone says "I get my morals from God", you are entitled to ask "how", and point out that a basic belief in God has no associated moral guidelines. They have to add extras to get morality in the same way that atheists do. It is just that we (usually) don't invoke any supernatural sources.

This is just a different perspective on things I have come up with recently...

Other Comments by Steve Zara

48. Comment #109254 by Diacanu on January 8, 2008 at 4:52 pm

I thought god belief minus dogma was deism, and then adding who you think god is was theism.

Other Comments by Diacanu

49. Comment #109255 by notsobad on January 8, 2008 at 4:52 pm

Instead of "Imagine no religion. No suicide...", I'd choose a positive message.
But then again, this ad is aimed at Americans...

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50. Comment #109256 by AndreG on January 8, 2008 at 4:53 pm

Back in a 'good' Soviet days, somewhere in a Russia, an atheist propagandist was talking to a crowd of a peasants. The atheist was a very skillful one, outlining a good case why the peasants should cease to believe in God. In the end, to demonstrate his point, he asked peasants to raise their fists and shake them towards the heaven to prove that they will not be strike down by the lighting and therefore should not be in fear of God anymore. Some enthusiastically, others reluctantly, but all, except of one, raised their fists and shook them. The atheist then approached the peasant who did not raise his fist and enquired as to why he did not. The peasant's answer was a somewhat unscientifical but nevertheless logical. He said, 'Well, you made such a good case that there is no God, then you have asked us to shake our fists towards him. If God is not existent, then who do we shake our fists against? But if He does exist, then I am scared to do that.'

My question is, who do atheists shake their fists against?

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