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Sunday, January 13, 2008 | Science : Economics | print version Print | Comments

Document Why people believe weird things about money

by Michael Shermer, LA Times

Reposted from:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-schermer13jan13,0,1195880.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail

Evolution accounts for a lot of our strange ideas about finances.

By Michael Shermer
January 13, 2008

Would you rather earn $50,000 a year while other people make $25,000, or would you rather earn $100,000 a year while other people get $250,000? Assume for the moment that prices of goods and services will stay the same.

Surprisingly -- stunningly, in fact -- research shows that the majority of people select the first option; they would rather make twice as much as others even if that meant earning half as much as they could otherwise have. How irrational is that?

This result is one among thousands of experiments in behavioral economics, neuroeconomics and evolutionary economics conclusively demonstrating that we are every bit as irrational when it comes to money as we are in most other aspects of our lives. In this case, relative social ranking trumps absolute financial status. Here's a related thought experiment. Would you rather be A or B?

A is waiting in line at a movie theater. When he gets to the ticket window, he is told that as he is the 100,000th customer of the theater, he has just won $100.

B is waiting in line at a different theater. The man in front of him wins $1,000 for being the 1-millionth customer of the theater. Mr. B wins $150.

Amazingly, most people said that they would prefer to be A. In other words, they would rather forgo $50 in order to alleviate the feeling of regret that comes with not winning the thousand bucks. Essentially, they were willing to pay $50 for regret therapy.

Regret falls under a psychological effect known as loss aversion. Research shows that before we risk an investment, we need to feel assured that the potential gain is twice what the possible loss might be because a loss feels twice as bad as a gain feels good. That's weird and irrational, but it's the way it is.

Human as it sounds, loss aversion appears to be a trait we've inherited genetically because it is found in other primates, such as capuchin monkeys. In a 2006 experiment, these small primates were given 12 tokens that they were allowed to trade with the experimenters for either apple slices or grapes. In a preliminary trial, the monkeys were given the opportunity to trade tokens with one experimenter for a grape and with another experimenter for apple slices. One capuchin monkey in the experiment, for example, traded seven tokens for grapes and five tokens for apple slices. A baseline like this was established for each monkey so that the scientists knew each monkey's preferences.

The experimenters then changed the conditions. In a second trial, the monkeys were given additional tokens to trade for food, only to discover that the price of one of the food items had doubled. According to the law of supply and demand, the monkeys should now purchase more of the relatively cheap food and less of the relatively expensive food, and that is precisely what they did. So far, so rational. But in another trial in which the experimental conditions were manipulated in such a way that the monkeys had a choice of a 50% chance of a bonus or a 50% chance of a loss, the monkeys were twice as averse to the loss as they were motivated by the gain.

Remarkable! Monkeys show the same sensitivity to changes in supply and demand and prices as people do, as well as displaying one of the most powerful effects in all of human behavior: loss aversion. It is extremely unlikely that this common trait would have evolved independently and in parallel between multiple primate species at different times and different places around the world. Instead, there is an early evolutionary origin for such preferences and biases, and these traits evolved in a common ancestor to monkeys, apes and humans and was then passed down through the generations.

If there are behavioral analogies between humans and other primates, the underlying brain mechanism driving the choice preferences most certainly dates back to a common ancestor more than 10 million years ago. Think about that: Millions of years ago, the psychology of relative social ranking, supply and demand and economic loss aversion evolved in the earliest primate traders.

This research goes a long way toward debunking one of the biggest myths in all of psychology and economics, known as "Homo economicus." This is the theory that "economic man" is rational, self-maximizing and efficient in making choices. But why should this be so? Given what we now know about how irrational and emotional people are in all other aspects of life, why would we suddenly become rational and logical when shopping or investing?

Consider one more experimental example to prove the point: the ultimatum game. You are given $100 to split between yourself and your game partner. Whatever division of the money you propose, if your partner accepts it, you each get to keep your share. If, however, your partner rejects it, neither of you gets any money.

How much should you offer? Why not suggest a $90-$10 split? If your game partner is a rational, self-interested money-maximizer -- the very embodiment of Homo economicus -- he isn't going to turn down a free 10 bucks, is he? He is. Research shows that proposals that offer much less than a $70-$30 split are usually rejected.

Why? Because they aren't fair. Says who? Says the moral emotion of "reciprocal altruism," which evolved over the Paleolithic eons to demand fairness on the part of our potential exchange partners. "I'll scratch your back if you'll scratch mine" only works if I know you will respond with something approaching parity. The moral sense of fairness is hard-wired into our brains and is an emotion shared by most people and primates tested for it, including people from non-Western cultures and those living close to how our Paleolithic ancestors lived.

When it comes to money, as in most other aspects of life, reason and rationality are trumped by emotions and feelings.



Michael Shermer is the publisher of Skeptic magazine, a columnist for Scientific American and the author of "The Mind of the Market: Compassionate Apes, Competitive Humans, and Lessons from Evolutionary Economics."

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1. Comment #111036 by rydrum2112 on January 13, 2008 at 11:17 am

I need to get his new book.

Other Comments by rydrum2112

2. Comment #111044 by notsobad on January 13, 2008 at 11:48 am

 avatarMost people wouldn't take $90-$10 because it's not 'fair', but they would rather earn less than what they could as long as it can be twice as much as others just to show how special and superior they are.
Douche bags ... so nothing new here

Other Comments by notsobad

3. Comment #111048 by kraut on January 13, 2008 at 11:58 am

"Would you rather earn $50,000 a year while other people make $25,000, or would you rather earn $100,000 a year while other people get $250,000? Assume for the moment that prices of goods and services will stay the same."

I guess the attitude is ingrained in a society based on greed and money as status symbol and the sole measure of success.
Rather earn than twice the average than less than halve what the biggest earners make, even if the latter gives you more freedom from monetary concerns.

I had to learn - due to age and health constraints - to live with 30% less then before. The astonishing thing - I go further with my money now, by cutting a lot of unnecessary crap, than before.

Other Comments by kraut

4. Comment #111052 by Richard Morgan on January 13, 2008 at 12:02 pm

 avatarWhat is amazing and surprising about this article is the way Shermer keeps saying "Amazingly..." and "Surprisingly..."
Like who's amazed and surprised?
Certainly not my mother-in-law.
And have you noticed that whenever an article's title starts with "Why people believe weird things...", the explanation is always an evolutionary one?
My next article will be entitled : "Why people believe weird things about evolution."
Ha!
And, kraut, before you knock the importance of financial social status, read a bit about sexual selection in evolutionary theory. There are some really amazing apparent contradictions. Apparently...

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

5. Comment #111054 by Diacanu on January 13, 2008 at 12:05 pm

 avatarHmph, I've yet to be impressed by this Shermer.

Nothing there I haven't come up with in my own journal scribblings.

You can actually cash in on thoughts like that?
Guess I'm not a good little homo economicus.
Never occurred to me.
Doesn't occur to me now that it's occurred to me.
Seems like a swindle somehow.
Not greedy enough I guess.

Other Comments by Diacanu

6. Comment #111055 by Richard Morgan on January 13, 2008 at 12:07 pm

 avatarDiacanu : are you my mother-in-law hiding behind this pseudo?

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

7. Comment #111056 by ianmkz on January 13, 2008 at 12:08 pm

 avatar
You can actually cash in on thoughts like that?

If you want to guarantee that your ideas earn you nothing, do nothing with them.

Other Comments by ianmkz

8. Comment #111057 by Diacanu on January 13, 2008 at 12:08 pm

 avatarRichard Morgan-

Lol, nope, but she must be a brilliant woman.
:P

Other Comments by Diacanu

9. Comment #111059 by Diacanu on January 13, 2008 at 12:10 pm

 avatarianmkz-

If you want to guarantee that your ideas earn you nothing, do nothing with them.


Thanks for the tip.

Other Comments by Diacanu

10. Comment #111060 by kraut on January 13, 2008 at 12:12 pm

"the explanation is always an evolutionary one?"

That is not surprising and amazing when considering the weirdest of all beliefs - that evolution does have absolutely no role in development of either species or behaviours but everything was presented on a platter (even if it is a globe called earth, although the believers in non evolution also defended the platter earth at one time to the detriment of the live of the unbeliever)by a very hypothetical whatever you might call it.

I guess a reflexive response.

Other Comments by kraut

11. Comment #111062 by phil rimmer on January 13, 2008 at 12:14 pm

 avatar
Douche bags


But, by using these two "fuzzy" logic rules, "I want to get more than the other guy" and "I'll scupper his chances if he gets much more than me" the most wonderful paradoxical outcome results.....the continual effort to outdo your neighbour that nevertheless requires his complicity. Result- an insatiable economic motor built substantially on co-operation.

Now whether we want an insatiable economic motor is another matter.

And I agree, its bloody obvious really. Only economists are shocked.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

12. Comment #111071 by 42nd on January 13, 2008 at 12:29 pm

 avatar----------------
Would you rather earn $50,000 a year while other people make $25,000, or would you rather earn $100,000 a year while other people get $250,000? Assume for the moment that prices of goods and services will stay the same.

Surprisingly -- stunningly, in fact -- research shows that the majority of people select the first option; they would rather make twice as much as others even if that meant earning half as much as they could otherwise have. How irrational is that?
---------------------
I think that Shremer is using word "irrational" a bit too liberally here. This behavior is perfectly rational if person wants prestige i.e. to be better than others, which is very important when it comes to mating, which is pretty much the meaning of life (at least from genetic perspective). So wanting to be better off than others instead of being better off in absolute terms is not irrational in the same way as ,say, believing in ghosts.

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13. Comment #111077 by Gustaf Sjoblom on January 13, 2008 at 12:52 pm

This is quite an interesting concept when applied to, for example, international economics. Especially in the political context.

Other Comments by Gustaf Sjoblom

14. Comment #111083 by jshuey on January 13, 2008 at 1:43 pm

 avatarTwo things about Shermer:

1. He writes exactly the way he speaks; (Most of us do) See http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/22, and

2. He writes and speaks with a goal of reaching a general audience. Overall, he does an admirable job of it, IMO.

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15. Comment #111091 by bucket on January 13, 2008 at 2:34 pm

If we evolved this way, it must mean it was a necessity of evolution.

If I'm earning $50,000 and everyone else is making $25,000, I have double the spending power to fight or ward off attacks against any potential rivals.

Stunning!

I also have double the spending power to attract mates and push my genes to the next generation!

Irrational!

Shermer, you are an idiot.

Other Comments by bucket

16. Comment #111098 by scooternyc on January 13, 2008 at 2:58 pm

 avatar"reason and rationality are trumped by emotions and feelings."

That statement isn't just about money, it's about everything.

Other Comments by scooternyc

17. Comment #111099 by Diacanu on January 13, 2008 at 3:04 pm

 avatarCourse, the answer to that isn't to swing the pendulum the other way, and be a bloodless Randian greed-bot.

Other Comments by Diacanu

18. Comment #111100 by PJG on January 13, 2008 at 3:17 pm

 avatarThere has been plenty of research on "happiness" and "wealth" that has found that all sorts of things are bound up not in absolute wealth (as in what you have) but in relative wealth (what you have in comparison to those around you). I haven't time to look it up now, but I am pretty sure that has been well known for years.

It is hardly irrational, the comparatively wealthy usually get the power and almost always get the girl(s).

Other Comments by PJG

19. Comment #111101 by Corylus on January 13, 2008 at 3:27 pm

 avatarjshuey
He writes exactly the way he speaks; (Most of us do)
Arrh crap. That explains why no one listens to a sodding word I say ;-)

Other Comments by Corylus

20. Comment #111102 by DasSquid on January 13, 2008 at 3:30 pm

 avatarI enjoy not being a fool, though sometimes it is indeed a fine edge.

In the above hypothetical situation, I'd certainly choose the $100k job and earn less than others than the 50k job and earn more than others, to ME it makes absolute sense.

Though I must say that in this view on life I am absolutely not normal, I'm not the kind who wants to get married, or have 2.3 kids a dog and a mortgage... no sorry, I'm not wanting to be another faceless 'cog' in the economic 'machine' ...

Hah, now I just sound like a crackpot.

People who think that they need to earn more money than others for something like sexual attraction are attracting the wrong kind of women. I'm (relatively) poor, a tubby man, but I've personality and am a fun person, so I don't NEED money to attract members of the opposite sex, and the ones that I DO attract tend to be fabulous individuals because I'm not attractive leeches, I'm attractive PEOPLE... Sorry, this is one of my pet peeves, people who believe they need things, money/cars/blah to attract members of the opposite sex.

Hah! A Pox on them! and I believe that the kind of women that are attracted to nothing but money ARE a pox, so it's fitting really.

Other Comments by DasSquid

21. Comment #111103 by Richard Morgan on January 13, 2008 at 3:34 pm

 avatarscootemyc :
That statement isn't just about money, it's about everything.

There's nothing more to add to that.
But people will.
That's what people do.

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

22. Comment #111106 by Diacanu on January 13, 2008 at 3:53 pm

 avatarDasSquid-

Preach it, brother!

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23. Comment #111107 by Richard Morgan on January 13, 2008 at 3:54 pm

 avatarDasSquid :
Sorry, this is one of my pet peeves, people who believe they need things, money/cars/blah to attract members of the opposite sex.


Hear, hear! Well said, that man!!
(We poor, ugly sods need to stick together, huh?)



PS Does that mean that life is easier for those who want to attract "members" of the same sex?
Do you have to be a member?
Where do you apply?
Are there conditions for joining?
Does anyone ever get thrown out for not attending the AGM?

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

24. Comment #111108 by phil rimmer on January 13, 2008 at 3:55 pm

 avatar

"reason and rationality are trumped by emotions and feelings."


There's nothing more to add to that.
But people will.
That's what people do.


So let me not disappoint.

But knowing how we are "wired" gives us more choices. We've overcome some of our wiring before now, albeit in patchy ways.

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25. Comment #111109 by Goldy on January 13, 2008 at 4:00 pm

Living in NZ and working in academia, I get paid pretty much the lowest of the low for using my brain. That's why I'm here, online, chatting :-)
Getting more money would be relatively easy for me - I'd have to move to Australia (which was on the cards, but my wife didn't think I'd send my CV out so we're buying a new house...hmmm, and I'm poor?) and work in industry - probably sell my sould to a pharma company.
Would I be happier? You betcha! Do I care if I earn less but earn more than my peers? No - that's my situation now. I want to earn loads. Money can't buy happiness but have you seen how many brands of sadness there are out there? Hell, some of them look almost like ecstatic joy in the right light... :-)
DasSquid - I'm with you too!

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26. Comment #111110 by DasSquid on January 13, 2008 at 4:03 pm

 avatar
PS Does that mean that life is easier for those who want to attract "members" of the same sex?
Do you have to be a member?
Where do you apply?
Are there conditions for joining?
Does anyone ever get thrown out for not attending the AGM?


To be honest, I think yes indeed it is easier for homosexuals to attract each other (obviously once they've identified each other) but this is merely a thought, I have no experience so I'mma stay out of that. To be a member all you need is a personality and a wish to enjoy life!

And you don't get thrown out for missing the meetings, you just miss out on enjoying yourself!

I just had a first date last night with a particularly fantastic lass, and so I'm REAL high right now, better than any drug. But I'm earning a pittance in comparison to the people who attract women with money, and I'm so far from being an 'alpha male' in that instead of having a 6 pack I've a keg ;) It's all about the brains and personality baby!

I also tend to preach against plastic surgery and everything like that as well (except in the cases of accidents and cancer etc.) I sincerely would LOVE to be able to officially speak on these subjects, but how would one start? It's particularly rampant in Korea (which is where my... 'near wife' is from). Plastic surgery is unbelievable common there as to be what you get your child for their 16th birthday or some such, I'd LOVE to go over there and talk about how they should love themselves for what they are etc.

Saying all this about 'screw' money and all that... and I'm posting from work... *sigh*

Other Comments by DasSquid

27. Comment #111111 by Barbara on January 13, 2008 at 4:06 pm

 avatarI, too, chose the $100,000 job. Anyone who would choose the $50,000 job would strike me as 1) not terribly bright and 2) someone who wants to have a feeling of superiority over someone else.

Another thing that bothers me (especially because my husband does this) is how people spend their money on things they don't really need, and probably wouldn't have given a thought to but for the fact that the price was marked down. It would be less expensive to pass it up.

Other Comments by Barbara

28. Comment #111112 by phil rimmer on January 13, 2008 at 4:13 pm

 avatarThis is all a mystery to me. I don't want to earn loadsamoney. I don't really care that others earn more than me. But I do want an interesting life. There has to be a reason to get out of bed in the morning. I need life and work to be INTERESTING.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

29. Comment #111113 by Diacanu on January 13, 2008 at 4:14 pm

 avatarBarbara-

I, too, chose the $100,000 job. Anyone who would choose the $50,000 job would strike me as 1) not terribly bright and 2) someone who wants to have a feeling of superiority over someone else.


Absent any other considerations, I might agree.

But, what are the jobs?

I'd take a $50,000 cubicle job over $100,000 to eat turds for a fetish porn movie.

Do I feel superior to the turd munchers?
You're damned right.

Other Comments by Diacanu

30. Comment #111115 by Diacanu on January 13, 2008 at 4:15 pm

 avatarphil rimmer-

Damn, I thought I was the only one.

Been feeling like a Martian amongst these money chasers.

Other Comments by Diacanu

31. Comment #111116 by Goldy on January 13, 2008 at 4:17 pm

I need life to be INTERESTING

S'why I'm in NZ working in a university instead of a pharma company in Oz...

Other Comments by Goldy

32. Comment #111118 by phil rimmer on January 13, 2008 at 4:19 pm

 avatar(Sighs) if only I found money interesting. My bank manager would be so happy...

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33. Comment #111119 by robotaholic on January 13, 2008 at 4:21 pm

 avatarSince this "choice" is hypothetical and utterly unrealistic and since life tends to give you what it does (even despite one's most admirable goals) what you make of your life and how you balance everything that comes your way is what matters in my world.

Having said that, I really do think money DOES (or can) make you happy. If you don't believe that, take some away from a millionaire and just see how happy he is!

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34. Comment #111120 by DasSquid on January 13, 2008 at 4:22 pm

 avatarI'm fairly sure that the hypothetical is that they're relatively similar if not the same jobs, it wouldn't make sense if in the hypothetical that the jobs were so radically different.

If the 100k job was boring and the 50k job was a whole lot of fun, then for sure I'd go for the 50k job, 50k is more than enough to get me by and get me on some fantastic holidays, and since I would be having fun at work then I'd feel pretty good all the time, so certain things can be taken for granted, such as this.

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35. Comment #111121 by Barbara on January 13, 2008 at 4:24 pm

 avatarDiacanu wrote:
Absent any other considerations, I might agree.

But, what are the jobs?

I'd take a $50,000 cubicle job over $100,000 to eat turds for a fetish porn movie.

Do I feel superior to the turd munchers?
You're damned right.

*hysterical laughter ... picking myself up from the floor*

Now where were we? Oh, yeah... I had assumed the jobs are identical, and something I'd like to do, and I had to choose between the pay options.

For the record, I feel superior to turd munchers too. :-)

Other Comments by Barbara

36. Comment #111122 by Richard Morgan on January 13, 2008 at 4:25 pm

 avatarThe French have a saying : "It's obvious that God doesn't like money - just look at the people he gives it to."


Other Comments by Richard Morgan

37. Comment #111123 by AfraidToDie on January 13, 2008 at 4:28 pm

 avatar
…loss aversion appears to be a trait we've inherited genetically…


I relate this to one major reason theists believe in a supernatural being… life after death. Isn't that a form of "loss aversion"?

..how irrational and emotional people are in all other aspects of life..


Well, perhaps those of us who are atheist (aka secular rationalists) are more likely to make "rational" decisions and perhaps that explains why we are in the minority? I don't know about the rest of you, but I have been accused of not respecting authority (the truth is I only respect authority that "deserves" respect – demonstrably earned). I don't respect titles (such as "queen") and am not big on ceremony. I suspect those that do are also more likely to be theist.

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38. Comment #111125 by phil rimmer on January 13, 2008 at 4:38 pm

 avatarI'm so sick of the French. They're so laid back about everything. And most of them have more interesting lives than me....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKS0yISz6xQ

Other Comments by phil rimmer

39. Comment #111128 by notsobad on January 13, 2008 at 4:53 pm

 avatarI'd take the $100,000 job too, because I know money don't matter most to some women. So I could count on my other, less shallow, qualities ... looks.

Anyway, I'd like to see the results of the job survey conducted in other countries.

Other Comments by notsobad

40. Comment #111129 by sentient on January 13, 2008 at 4:57 pm

 avatarWhat's the point of love? - it can't buy you money

only joking :)

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41. Comment #111130 by Radesq on January 13, 2008 at 4:58 pm

 avatarI don't think the instinctual part of the brain understands money as anything but a zero sum arrangement. If you have more I have less. That might in part explain the 50K versus 100K test. So perhaps people who answer the question just don't think it through (is that really that hard to believe?)or maybe they over thought it (if I'm getting paid twice as much as the others in this scenario maybe I'm really good at my job and vice versa, etc.) As far as the monkeys being risk averse to 50/50 bets even a monkey knows that a coin flip can come up heads 12 times in a row then you would have no food and no tokens -- hell hath no fury like a hungry monkey. Finally on the 90/10 split...if you didn't have the decency to offer me half then I'll be happy to fore go my ten to deny you any of it (if that's not logical enough I could just hit you over the head and take your 90% when your not looking). When I say you I don't mean you of course -- I'd never do that to you because you would share.

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42. Comment #111132 by Deepthought on January 13, 2008 at 5:09 pm

 avatar"If money is a curse then may God strike me down with it. And may I never recover!" -From The Fiddler on the Roof

Well I think that's what he says. I may be misquoting.

Other Comments by Deepthought

43. Comment #111141 by bluebird on January 13, 2008 at 6:15 pm

 avatar"Money is the world's curse" ---
"May the Lord smite me with it. And may I never recover"

Other Comments by bluebird

44. Comment #111152 by Damien White on January 13, 2008 at 6:40 pm

The problem is that Michael Shermer, like most people, doesn't understand basic economics.
People do not work for monetary units, they work for what the monetary units will buy them. Physically, there are few things you can do with cash: burn it, eat it, build a pile of coins. In and of itself it's not very useful. It's only use is as a medium of exchange, to enable you to buy goods and services. All goods are valued not in terms of dollars, but in units of utility: i.e. how useful the item is to the consumer?
What Michael Shermer has discovered is that the method by which money is earned has it's own utility, and that some people place a high price upon this.

BTW, I am an economist, and we've known about this for many, many years. It's as my economics lecturer used to say: most people will readily admit their lack of knowledge of pure mathematics, or chemistry or computers, but everyone thinks they're an economist.

Other Comments by Damien White

45. Comment #111154 by Radesq on January 13, 2008 at 6:51 pm

 avatarDamien -- the Batboy appreciates utility as he has a whole belt dedicated to it. But what difference does it make to Shermer's points whether you are using utility units or monetary units?

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46. Comment #111158 by Cartomancer on January 13, 2008 at 7:23 pm

 avatar- DasSquid, comment #26,

Do homosexuals find it easier to attract one another than heterosexuals? Hmm, I'd love to see a study done on this, if only to assuage my raging insecurities on the matter. I want to think that the answer is a resounding no - after all, we make up approximately 3-6% of the population and once you've put aside the ones who are too old or to whom you are not attracted that's a far smaller field to play than heterosexuals get. The chances that there will even be someone who is both attractive to you and attracted to you at all are much slimmer. Assuming homosexuals account for 5% of the male population, and about 1% of the female population, that means that even before the "old and ugly" deductions are made I have at most 5% of the male population to choose from as opposed to my heterosexual twin brother, who has 99% of the females. As a sheer numbers game I seem to have been placed on a difficulty setting many orders of magnitude higher than him by virtue of my sexuality.

Or, at least, I keep repeating this mantra over and over to myself so I don't feel so depressed at the fact I haven't managed to find a boyfriend in my life. The four other gay people I know all seem to have managed to attract long-term partners with no greater effort than the seven heterosexual friends I have, or at least to do so within the same time period. Whether this is because they have simply settled for the first person to come along or whether my own experiences are somewhat unusual I cannot say.

One corollary of the 5% / 99% imbalance is that, upon meeting an attractive individual of the appropriate gender, there is only a 5% chance that they will even be capable of being interested in me, so the casual assumption must be that no, they are not of my persuasion and should be ignored for the purposes of the partner search. My heterosexual opposite number on the other hand can be 99% certain that any prospective female he is interested in does not fall at this first hurdle. The practical implications of this are huge - homosexuals cannot trawl the general population at large in pretty much any circumstance for prospective partners, whereas heterosexuals certainly can.
It could perhaps be argued that by flocking together in gay pubs and clubs we can increase the chances and stack the odds more in our favour, but all that does is bring some of the field closer together and has no effect at all on the occurrence of attractive individuals to whom we are ourselves attractive. Besides which, these places are generally not the sort of locales in which easy familiarity grows and a relaxed, comfortable atmosphere proliferates. And that's putting it mildly!

As for money being a powerful attractor, well, I can't say I have ever been attracted to a man because of it, or anyone has ever been attracted to me for the same reason. It does seem to have too good a Darwinian explanation to be dismissed out of hand however.

Other Comments by Cartomancer

47. Comment #111159 by Goldy on January 13, 2008 at 7:31 pm

Cartomancer, help is at hand. Despite the fact you fancy blokes and other men fancy lasses, the smae mechanism exists in both of us. Need to take a leaf out of DasSquid's book and remake ourselves. Confidence and character. Oh, and beer - not good for the body but great for teh inhibitions :-). Mind you, I used the internet too and am now married, so I better tone down my re-invention. Don't want to ruin a good thing and then there's that morality thing that theists love to bring up...

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48. Comment #111160 by Roland_F on January 13, 2008 at 7:39 pm

The book of Michael Shermer is nothing new, I've read all this examples in several other publications already.

There are other examples busting the myth of the Homo economicus even if there is no economic interaction with others to out compete each other:
people usually choosing the smaller 3 years salary total when the yearly earning is increasing rather than the higher 3 years total when it's decreasing:
Choice A: year-1 = 50T, year-2 = 60T, year-3 = 70T so 3 years sum is 180T
Choice B: year-1 = 80T, year-2 = 70T, year-3 = 60T so 3 years sum is 210T
Most people choose 'A' because it 'feels better' to go up instead down, a true Homo economicus would of course take 'B' especially as inflation is additionally benefiting the high payments in year-1.


There was for example the BBC series from Robert Winston author of the books 'Human instinct' and 'the human mind'.
His example was the rating of 'sexual attractiveness' of him from woman sitting in a café when
(a) arriving in an old car with old cloths then his attractiveness rating was 1-2
(b) arriving in front of the café in a Rolls Royce, with designer suit and Rolex watch his attractiveness rating was 9-10.
So status and money seems to make someone more attractive e.g. a clear advantage for selection.

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49. Comment #111161 by DasSquid on January 13, 2008 at 7:48 pm

 avatarCartomancer

Ah, roger that. As I did my best to point out that I know absolutely nothing, my only thoughts were due to the fact that after the fellow gay man had been identified that it was a little more promiscuous than the hetero relationship (though I guess my views may be a little tarnished by the uhh... rather promiscuous lesibans I've known in my life) who knows? Maybe you just have a poor gay scene ;)

Anyway, a reinvention if indeed that is what you wish to call it, is a rather fun thing, and since I did it to myself I couldn't be any happier. Forgiving the term for the moment but I consider my Fridays out with my group as pretty much 'holy'. Any one or any thing that intrudes for the worse is considered sacrilegious, such a thing to say on this website, eh? Yeah, we're drinkers, we've probably done a hefty amount of damage to our livers in our short lives, but hey, it helps us have a lot of fun!

I believe that at the moment I'm far too young to be taken very seriously on many subjects, particularly the ones I'm interested in, were I to attempt to debate pastors and whatnot in my area, they'd likely see me as an impudent lackwit, even if I did out wit them.

This gives me many years to hone my arguments, research more, and then generally employ my time in a meaningless and unprofitable way.[/Kryten]

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50. Comment #111162 by Cartomancer on January 13, 2008 at 7:55 pm

 avatarYeah, I know what you mean. To be honest promiscuity is rife among the gay community I know of here in Oxford (though they all steer clear of me for reasons unknown!) though it is far from universal. Promiscuity does not lasting relationships make of course.

As for beer... well, as I have a severe anaphylactic reaction to all alcohol that's something of a no-no in my case! I would think, though, that retaining full use of one's critical faculties would be an advantage in the mating game. After all, drunk people are seldom attractive and opportunities might be missed in a haze of ebrious delirium.

I think I've just veered off into one of those little private conversations that rub the good Professor up the wrong way. Apologies kind sir...

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