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Friday, January 18, 2008 | Science : Evolution and Biology | print version Print | Comments |

Document The New Theology

by Jeremy Manier, Chicago Tribune

Reposted from:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/magazine/chi-080120evolution-story,0,4515517.story

Reconciling the biblical God with Darwin's theories would challenge even an omnipotent being. But a growing number of thinkers and scientists are altering their concept of the deity to make room for evolution.

More than 350 years after the inquisition hounded Galileo over charges of heresy, physicist Howard Van Till, of Calvin College in Michigan, confronted a little inquisition of his own. Van Till roused a small but fervent pack of enemies at the conservative college with his book, "The Fourth Day," in which he argued that the stories of the Bible and science's account of evolution could both be true.

His critics on the school's board of trustees had no interest in reconciling the religious account of creation with a naturalist explanation of how life and the universe have evolved over the ages. For years after the book's release in 1986, Van Till reported to a monthly interrogation where he struggled to reassure college officials that his scientific teachings fit within their creed. Van Till's career survived the ordeal, but his Calvinist faith did not. Over the next two decades, he became the heretic his critics had suspected.

Maybe the inquisitors were right to see contradictions between his science and their religion, he thought. Their beliefs demanded a God of absolute power who intervened constantly in the history of life and in human affairs. But Van Till found that picture increasingly at odds with his conviction that everything from stars to starfish has evolved according to natural laws. The college inquiry, he says now, "shook me awake."

He could have dropped all faith in God, in the long tradition of scientific atheists, whose most recent champion is British biologist Richard Dawkins, author of "The God Delusion."

Instead, Van Till tried to adapt his religious views.

He rejected the idea of God as a supernatural being who took care to design every galaxy and blade of grass. The God he sought couldn't have designed everything at the outset, because the universe that science reveals is always unfolding, always changing. He began to think of God as a silent presence within nature, the source of the nameless awe he felt when studying the genesis of solar systems and the life of our endlessly fertile planet.

"If your faith requires supernaturalism, or a God who wields overpowering control over nature, then yes, evolution will challenge that," says Van Till, who took early retirement from Calvin College in 1999."The key is to correct your portrait of God," he says. It's an audacious suggestion, but transforming the way people think about God has become a vital mission for a wave of scientists and theologians who want to place the natural world at the forefront of religion. They see themselves as spokespersons for an emerging religious majority that has been obscured by the excesses of stubborn creationists and the iconoclastic broadsides of scientific atheists.

Evolution, they contend, is more than a soulless explanation for the development of life. It is a glimpse of a divine plan so subtle it's almost invisible. Some scholars call the idea "theistic evolution," though the term has been slow to catch on. Dr. Francis Collins, the leader of the U.S. government's Human Genome Project and a born-again Christian, prefers to call it "BioLogos," the union of biology with the word of God.

The new theology of evolution can lead to a vision of a more humble God, scarcely recognizable as the almighty of Judaism, Islam and Christianity. To some religious believers, the God of modern science would be as difficult to worship as a Galapagos tortoise.

Such discomfort is unavoidable, says John Haught, a professor of theology at Georgetown University and author of "God After Darwin: A Theology of Evolution." He says religious traditions have never absorbed the scope of the scientific story that emerged in the 20th Century through the refinement of evolutionary theory. That story can overturn believers' assumptions, but he believes it also leads to a richer form of faith.

For Haught, evolution means that the chore of creation is going on all around us, all the time. Most important, the process does not follow a preordained path, because God loved the world enough to set it free.

"I think Darwin was a gift to theology," Haught says. "We can't have exactly the same thoughts about God that we did before."

Such a hopeful view of evolution brings scorn from creationists, as well as from the new breed of scientific non-believers. That's because Charles Darwin's legacy typically is seen as a threat to faith, not an opportunity. The emerging theology of evolution is in some ways an effort to salvage religion from the success that Darwin and his scientific heirs have had in toppling ancient assumptions about God's design of the living world.

Put simply, evolution seems to explain much of the design that religions always attributed to God. The displacement of the divine hand has played a central role in many scientists' loss of religiosity, from Darwin to Dawkins.

One of the more colorful scientific de-conversion stories comes from Jerry Coyne, a professor of genetics and evolutionary biology at the University of Chicago. It happened in 1967 when Coyne, then 17, was listening for the first time to the Beatles' "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" album while lying on his parents' couch in Alexandria, Va.

Suddenly Coyne began to shake and sweat. For reasons he still doesn't understand, it dawned on him at that moment that there was no God, and he wasn't going anywhere when he died. His casual Judaism seemed to wash away as the album played on. The crisis lasted about 30 minutes, he says, and when it was over, he had left religion behind for good. He went on to study how new species evolve, and found the Darwinian view of nature perfectly in tune with his abandonment of faith.

"Scientists in general tend to be more atheistic, and particularly evolutionists," Coyne says. "That's because we're dealing with a subject that was previously known to be a product of God's intervention, and now we know it's not."

Evolution played an even more central role in torpedoing Dawkins' Anglican faith when he was 15. Dawkins says he had always assumed that the intricacy of living things meant God must have designed them, just as the English philosopher William Paley argued in his 1802 book "Natural Theology."

Then Dawkins began to learn about evolution, and he realized that biology could explain life's apparent design without the need for a deity.

"So finally it was Darwinism that did it for my religious faith," Dawkins said in an interview at Oxford University, where he holds the Charles Simonyi chair for the public understanding of science.

In a curious way, Dawkins and his fellow scientific atheists espouse the same notion of God that drives their sworn enemies, the creationists who oppose teaching evolution in public schools. For both camps, the only God who makes sense is one who designed all life with exquisite attention to detail.

Scientific atheists disavow such a religion; creationists embrace it. But what if both sides started out with the wrong idea of God? What if their pitched battles were the fruit of a shared misconception, one that conceals evolution's potential for new religious insights? The greatest challenge may be for believers to understand evolution as it is, not as they wish it would be. Indeed, many scientists and even theologians believe that Darwin's theory requires throwing out old ideas about divine design.

The union of Darwinian theory with genetics has shown that natural processes on their own can yield organisms and molecular machinery of stunning complexity. Random variation is evolution's fuel, not supernatural ingenuity. Genetic inheritance locks in those random traits that help a creature survive or pass on its genes. Bit by bit, life branches into a million twigs on a vast evolutionary tree. Evolution starts with randomness and, through the constant hoarding of crucial changes, churns out decidedly non-random inventions--the wings of a bat, the microscopic weaponry of a virus, the subtle mind of a human being. Evolution creates exactly what Paley, the English philosopher, claimed would be impossible--"design without a designer, contrivance without a contriver."

The religious response is simple, some believers say: God used evolution to create us. But invoking God's direct guidance raises daunting scientific hurdles. Ever since the publication in 1859 of Darwin's "Origin of Species," religious writers have tried to cram the idea of design back into evolution, often without success.

The Harvard botanist Asa Gray, one of Darwin's earliest American defenders and a devout Presbyterian, suggested that God had guided the raw variation in species "along certain beneficial lines." But scientists have rejected that idea, since there is no evidence that genetic variability or mutations are rigged to achieve certain ends. For example, when bacteria adapt to a new antibiotic or other changes in their environment, it appears the germs don't suddenly start making more beneficial mutations. Studies suggest that such mutations occur truly at random.

The contingency of natural selection also comes through in the work of biologists Peter and Rosemary Grant, of Princeton University, who have chronicled how natural variation drove small-scale evolution among Galapagos finches in the wake of a 1977 drought. Birds with relatively big beaks were better-equipped to survive the drought and left more descendants with big beaks. But there was nothing remarkable or pre-ordained about their beak size; the lucky birds just happened to be in the upper end of the variation that had been there all along.

Some religious thinkers cling to a garbled version of Gray's idea under the banner of intelligent design. Rather than championing Darwin, as Gray did, the intelligent-design movement argues that natural selection could not have produced the complexity of living things. Some intelligent force must have intervened--a force that the movement's mostly Christian backers identify as God.

Intelligent design's shortcomings as science are immense, but its theological problems may be just as profound. The God of intelligent design is a master craftsman who leaves virtually nothing to chance. That's unsatisfying to Cambridge University paleontologist Simon Conway Morris, who says many of his objections to intelligent design stem from his Christian faith. "It's theology for control freaks, with God as an engineer."

The image of God as a micro-managing autocrat leads to some awkward paradoxes. For example, supporters of intelligent design often point to the flagellum, the complex molecular motor that allows bacteria to move, as an example of something that evolution could not have produced. Yet if God designed even the tiny flagellum, why stop there? Intelligent design implies that the creator's blueprint knows no limits. And if God designed every last element of life, that makes him minutely responsible for nature's cruelty and failures as well as its beauty.

"It gives you a God who cared enough to make the motors for bacteria, but wouldn't stop the motors of the planes on 9/11," Van Till says. Despite such apparent flaws, intelligent design and older forms of creationism remain popular. Various polls suggest that most Americans believe humans were created by God in their present form, rather than arising through evolution. That's the God of Lamar Schlabach, 46, a modest Amish woodworker who makes furniture with his brother at their shop in Atwood, Ill. Schlabach says that as he crafts a complex desk or bookshelf set, he sometimes wonders what could have created hands capable of such intricate work. At those times, evolution seems to him an inadequate account.

"When you're working with your hands and it's really going well," Schlabach says, "you just think of all the things that had to come together. All the things that had to work to make this moment happen. And it's so unbelievably unlikely."

God's handiwork stares believers like Schlabach in the face. Yet evolution implies that if God left an imprint on the living world, it's much more subtle than traditional religion would claim.

Darwin often was asked about such issues. His correspondence collection at Cambridge University is stuffed with letters from readers who were desperate for him to resolve the religious problems his theory spawned. He never offered a clear answer, and his own views seemed to veer from agnosticism to a soft deism; he could imagine a creator setting the universe in motion, but he did not feel the presence of a loving God. In an 1860 letter to Asa Gray, Darwin wrote that he could not see "evidence of design and beneficence on all sides of us."

At the same time, he wrote, "I cannot anyhow be contented to view this wonderful universe & especially the nature of man, & to conclude that everything is the result of brute force. I am inclined to look at everything as resulting from designed laws, with the details, whether good or bad, left to the working out of what we may call chance. Not that this notion at all satisfies me. I feel most deeply that the whole subject is too profound for the human intellect. A dog might as well speculate on the mind of Newton. -- Let each man hope & believe what he can.--"

Darwin couldn't resolve his ambivalence about religion. But Georgetown's Haught thinks he has a better answer to the dilemma that has bedeviled believers for nearly 150 years.

Don't think of God as a meticulous designer of life, Haught urges. A detailed design would have limited the paths that living things could take. Instead, he says, God's love led to a world that's always open to new directions for life, without the need for overpowering divine supervision. The chance-fueled nature of evolution doesn't disprove God's existence, Haught believes. It's what God wanted.

"Love persuades, it doesn't force," Haught says. "God doesn't compel the world to be a certain way, and that's because of how love works. God lets things be, and lets the weeds grow up with the wheat."

The Biblical foundation for Haught's view of evolution goes back to St. Paul's Epistle to the Philippians, which describes how Jesus "emptied himself" to become human. It's a crucial image, Haught believes. That idea of divine emptying--"kenosis" in Greek--offers a way of understanding all of creation. Instead of a mighty autocrat, it portrays God as a self-humbling servant, content to let the universe evolve and novelty emerge.

"Creation itself is not divine pyrotechnics but the consequence of infinite mystery contracting itself, making itself small, so something other than God can come into the world," Haught says.

Evolution reveals "a universe brimming over with fruitful possibilities," says Kenneth Miller, a professor of biology at Brown University and author of "Finding Darwin's God." That doesn't prove that God exists--far from it. In fact, Haught calls this vision of creation "dynamic and disturbing." But Miller and Haught believe that such a universe is consistent with a God who wanted to set up endless opportunities for life while allowing evolution to find its own way.

This view of a modest God may seem unfamiliar, but it's not new. It's the God that the British poet and artist William Blake had in mind with his 1789 poem, "The Lamb"--"He is meek and he is mild; He became a little child."

An evolutionary view of religion means the same forces that made life change constantly in the past are still at work, leaving our future uncertain. Haught believes such an open future is perfectly compatible with the messages of hope and promise that are central to Christianity.

The subtle divine signature may even be visible within Darwinian evolution, according to Cambridge's Simon Conway Morris, who made his name studying the evolution of species preserved in the 500 million-year-old Burgess Shale.

In "Life's Solution: Inevitable Humans in a Lonely Universe," Conway Morris catalogs piles of instances of "evolutionary convergence," in which different species have hit upon similar designs, sometimes separated by many millions of years. For example, sharks and dolphins evolved nearly identical body plans, and mammals separated by vast oceans developed similar saber-toothed weaponry. All along, Conway Morris sees an evolutionary trend toward greater complexity and the emergence of consciousness in humans and other species such as dolphins and whales.

Convergence doesn't prove the existence of a divine plan or contradict Darwinian evolution, he notes. Many biologists say that convergence is exactly what evolution would predict, with or without God. But it suggests a "deeper fabric to biology," in which not all outcomes are equally likely. God did not create individual species, but might have constrained from the outset the kinds of paths that life could take. "One enters a world which is far more extraordinary," he says.

Of course, that's not exactly how the foes of theistic evolution see things. Many boosters of intelligent design find the self-humbling God of evolution too weak and passive to inspire belief. Somewhat oddly, many scientific atheists feel the same way.

"The only kind of theism that's reconcilable with evolution is one in which everything happened without any supernatural intervention," says Jerry Coyne of the U. of C. "You strip the specialness of human beings out of it, you strip the origin of life out of it, the soul." For Coyne, the only God worth believing in is one whom modern science has rendered implausible.

A theology of evolution risks turning God into an "attenuated deity," says William Dembski, one of the founding architects of intelligent design. Haught "sees God's hands in creation as fundamentally tied," says Dembski, a professor of philosophy at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Ft. Worth. Whether evolution can foster a spiritually satisfying picture of God ultimately depends on how ordinary believers receive the new evangelists of theistic evolution. It's a difficult step for someone like Schlabach, the Amish woodworker, but his experience suggests how the gulf between those worlds might be bridged.

Schlabach's formal education ended after the 8th grade, but he and his brother Ron have remained voracious readers. Often in the middle of a day's work at the Village Craftsman, their shop in Atwood, one of the brothers will cross sleepy Main Street to peruse classic books and newspapers in the town library. After reading Kenneth Miller's "Finding Darwin's God," Lamar Schlabach struck up a correspondence with the author. He sent a seven-page, handwritten letter to the Brown University professor, who is a practicing Roman Catholic.

"For the first time I feel able to dimly perceive (through a glass darkly) how a Creator might have brought this world into existence," Schlabach wrote. "I've always felt the account of our origins in the book of Genesis [was] intended for an audience much less sophisticated than the generations alive today."

"I hate to quibble," Schlabach went on, "but I do think that God's involvement in his creation . . . is more extensive than you have implied." Schlabach described some complex adaptations that he could not see emerging without a designer, such as the migratory patterns of birds that follow the same routes over the open ocean for generations.

"Can this system operate in a mindless, mechanistic fashion?" Schlabach wrote. To Schlabach's pleasant shock, Miller sent a typewritten reply that attempted to address his questions.

"Remember that God, if he exists, is the author of all things natural," Miller wrote. "The 'mechanistic' material world, therefore, is entirely His work and His creation. The 'mindlessness' of that world, therefore, is more apparent than real."

The exchange did not make a full convert of Schlabach, though he treasures Miller's reply. More than anything, he says, he was relieved to find a biologist who could talk about faith with genuine interest and respect. It was a welcome switch from scientists such as Dawkins, who in a September book review described the Bible Belt as "the reptilian brain of southern and middle America."

Many such believers would, of course, find a theology of evolution difficult to accept, but it may be an even harder sell among scientists. Ursula Goodenough, a professor of biology at Washington University in St. Louis, says she considers herself a "religious naturalist," yet her beliefs don't include God. Instead, she visits churches in an effort to excite believers about the awe-inspiring, 13.7 billion-year story of the universe and the evolutionary epic that binds humanity together, along with the rest of life on Earth. She said she draws inspiration from Thomas Berry, a 93-year-old Catholic priest and scholar, who has argued that the new story of cosmology and evolution is as important for people of faith as the stories in the Bible.

"You start with the scientific story and see what you can do with it religiously," says Goodenough, author of "The Sacred Depths of Nature." "The one rule is that you don't get to cherry-pick and fool around with these scientific understandings of nature, so that things turn out the way you want." Dawkins says he considers Goodenough an ally in his crusade for scientific atheism, but Goodenough says that's not quite accurate. "There's one really important difference between us," she says. "Traditional religions give him a stomachache, and they don't give me a stomachache. I don't have any urge to go around pointing out their problems."

Goodenough's mission has more in common with that of Francis Collins, leader of the genome project, though she does not share his evangelical Christian beliefs. Collins says he hopes to correct the defensive crouch that many churches have taken against modern science, as if fearing that each new finding had the potential to challenge old beliefs.

"My dream is to bring together open-minded, deep-thinking scientists and theologians to try to construct a new theology of how the universe is put together and how God works within that universe," Collins says. "It should be a celebration theology instead of a defensive theology." That's a job for the long haul, one that Dawkins and his allies have no desire to assist. Yet even Dawkins can relate to the foundation of wonder that fuels the faith of many believers. In fact, he thinks science provides the best channel for that spiritual impulse.

His book tearing apart the case for religion has sold more than one million copies in the last year, but Dawkins still looks at home in the role of rumpled professor. He rides around Oxford on a simple blue bicycle with a wicker basket on the handlebars, and he hasn't quite mastered his iPhone. He relishes mocking religion, but he believes atheists must keep a sense of awe about the universe and this world of life.

"It's . . . like a great piece of music," he says, choosing his words even more carefully than usual. "It's like a piece of Schubert or Mozart. It's lying on your back looking up at the Milky Way, thinking about the distances involved . . . the fact that every star you look at you're seeing at a different time separated by millions of years. And it's the millions of years that you're looking at when you look at the rocks."

"It's the staggering fact that we exist," he says, "that we have evolved to such a pitch that we're capable of consciously reflecting on our own existence. All of those things are capable of giving me a catch in the throat."

He pauses, and it is clear that this is a different Dawkins than many people see, someone who understands very well the tug of religion and the reason believers seek a world beyond themselves. But lest he leave the wrong impression, the man who has been called "a devil's chaplain" furrows his brow and finishes his thought about the wonders he had just described.

"They are made more wonderful, actually," he says, "by the thought that they are explicable by rational, step-by-step stages, and that they don't evade the issue by postulating as an explanation something that demands a bigger explanation." That impermissible "something" is God, Dawkins says, but not just any God. He gives a pass to big thinkers like Albert Einstein, who famously insisted that "God does not play dice with the universe," and Stephen Hawking, who pondered the ability of physicists to "know the mind of God." They were talking about an impersonal God embodied in the intangible laws of physics, Dawkins believes. What he can't accept is an "interventionist, miracle-wreaking, thought-reading, sin-punishing, prayer-answering" God--the God that Dawkins believes is central to most religions.

That all depends on the religion in question--and the believer. Most forms of Buddhism do not envision a personal God in the same way that Christianity seems to require. The late Abdus Salam, the first Muslim recipient of the Nobel Prize in physics in 1979, was deeply religious, and cited the Quran to support what he called "the faith of all physicists; the deeper we seek, the more is our wonder excited, the more is the dazzlement of our gaze."

But the notion of divine intervention in our world can be a problem for the apostles of theistic evolution. Kenneth Miller of Brown has suggested that God might nudge events in the natural world through imperceptible changes at the quantum level. Other believers, like Francis Collins, say that old-fashioned miracles are perfectly consistent with a scientific worldview because science is concerned only with natural processes, not God's supernatural action. Collins says his standard of evidence for believing in a miracle is high, but he doesn't dismiss them out of hand.

"For me, as a believer who sees God as the author of natural laws, why would it be such a stretch to imagine that such a being could, on rare occasions, suspend those laws?" Collins says.

Yet perhaps that doesn't go far enough, if Howard Van Till is right and modern science truly can transform how believers think about God. Would a God humble enough to let life take its own course need to intervene magically in our lives? Ever since his peculiar inquisition at Calvin College, Van Till has drifted away from belief in a God with such coercive power over nature. His faith in official Calvinist doctrines slowly melted. He retired to a town near the shores of Lake Michigan and joined a progressive Christian church where one sermon last year was titled, "How Science and Religion Enhance Each Other." The sermon sought ways of keeping the best of religion while leaving behind "those preposterous gods" that contradict the findings of science.

"I don't know nearly as much as I used to," Van Till says. "But I'm happier than ever."

He says he's become content to rest in a state of deep incomprehension and doubt about the nature of God. In some ways he's an agnostic, though he treasures the traditions he learned as a child. What keeps him from dropping his belief is an overpowering feeling that something he can't define has made this dazzling world possible, a limitless source of order and creation. For that, he feels he still must use the name of God, even if he no longer knows what it means.

Jeremy Manier covers science and medicine for the Tribune.
jmanier@tribune.com

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1. Comment #113144 by Steve Zara on January 18, 2008 at 4:39 pm

 avatarIn a way, it is rather sad. It is watching a once proud religion where God rained down fire and parted waters gradually slip into an anaemic decline. Even the idea of the odd mirace here and there is abandoned; prayers are left unanswered; there is nothing but a vague prod here and there below the level of quantum uncertainty, which (and if the theologists understood physics, they would realise) can have no effect at all. So, God fades away into deistic insignificance.

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2. Comment #113151 by notsobad on January 18, 2008 at 5:10 pm

 avatarI stopped reading after a few paragraphs because it was apparent that the guy is a pantheist or deist.

These people can worship the Sun for all I care, but don't identify as Christians in census so that the Church can use those numbers to influence public matters and steal from the budget.

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3. Comment #113152 by ianmkz on January 18, 2008 at 5:16 pm

 avatarIf it's a compromise I guess it must be good.

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4. Comment #113155 by Jack Rawlinson on January 18, 2008 at 5:31 pm

 avatarImpressive, these religious folks, aren't they? Even the relatively smart ones take decades to realise they have to shift the god-goalposts yet again in order to be something other than a complete embarrassment within polite, educated society.

But the saddest thing is that even the smart ones aren't quite smart enough to make that final leap into the happy place which starts with, "Oh my god, I've been a complete asshat all my life for trying to maintain a belief in something that is intrinsically nonsensical. I need to stop doing that now."

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5. Comment #113156 by mrjonno on January 18, 2008 at 5:33 pm

If you define 'god' as nature or the universe then obviously 'he' exists, but that certainly isnt the god of any major world religion and is basically redefining words

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6. Comment #113159 by 82abhilash on January 18, 2008 at 5:46 pm

Passing through my mind:

Creeping normalcy

The frog in warm water

It is the final proof of God's omnipotence that he neednot exist in order to save us.

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7. Comment #113161 by kraut on January 18, 2008 at 5:52 pm

In summa - god is whatever you define it to be.

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8. Comment #113162 by Ian Bamlett on January 18, 2008 at 5:54 pm

 avatarI admit to skimming and maybe taking in 50% of this; but I am glad I caught this:

Evolution.....is a glimpse of a divine plan so subtle it's almost invisible


So close.... and yet so far.

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9. Comment #113163 by agg on January 18, 2008 at 5:54 pm

 avatarI think this is a good trend. The more "traditional" theists go under this new flock, the better for us: Fewer people would remain to worry about the "decline of family values", stem cell research, gay marriage, etc. --- the things that actually affect us as a society and hold up the progress. We can't expect everyone to just come to their senses and give up religion altogether.

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10. Comment #113166 by stereoroid on January 18, 2008 at 6:02 pm

 avatarI see a lot of "woulds", "coulds" "possiblys", "maybes"...

"The new theology of evolution can lead to a vision of a more humble God"? Sure, and expensive face cream "can lead to" a reduction in the appearance of wrinkles. That statement, like most of the article, contains so much weasel-word qualification that it hardly seems to be saying anything concrete.

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11. Comment #113167 by BAEOZ on January 18, 2008 at 6:04 pm

 avatar
Instead, he says, God's love led to a world that's always open to new directions for life, without the need for overpowering divine supervision. The chance-fueled nature of evolution doesn't disprove God's existence, Haught believes. It's what God wanted.

That is a hypothesis not necessary to explain anything.

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12. Comment #113171 by Sauveterre on January 18, 2008 at 6:34 pm

 avatar
They see themselves as spokespersons for an emerging religious majority that has been obscured by the excesses of stubborn creationists and the iconoclastic broadsides of scientific atheists.


"emerging religious majority"...
Couple of problems here.
1. Deism is nothing new.
2. It is not a majority.

As a child, my dad basically had a very open minded deist position, which was nice for me. But even in a relaxed methodist church, his views were considered so far from the norm that he offended people practically every time he opened his mouth.
Funny thing about that. I remember asking my dad, "If it is unobservable, and doesnt affect anything, then doesnt that make it a nonentity by definition?"
Got about ten minutes of introspective silence from that one. After which he changed the subject.

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13. Comment #113172 by Wosret on January 18, 2008 at 6:34 pm

 avatar"Suddenly Coyne began to shake and sweat. For reasons he still doesn't understand, it dawned on him at that moment that there was no God, and he wasn't going anywhere when he died. His casual Judaism seemed to wash away as the album played on. The crisis lasted about 30 minutes, he says, and when it was over, he had left religion behind for good."

This annoys me. I don't like hearing such arbitrary and illogical "conversion" stories. No better than the guy from the human genome project and his frozen waterfall, in my opinion.

I've never believed in god, so I don't know what a conversion is like. However, I would hope that someone gets here through intellectual means. I never always rejected the ideas, when I decided to, it was on intellectual and philosophical grounds. Not because I heard a song or saw a frozen waterfall.

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14. Comment #113175 by jamienewman on January 18, 2008 at 6:46 pm

I'm with agg on this, although I recognize that it may be atheistically incorrect to think we'd all be better off in a world in which Unitarian Universalists and Quakers outnumbered Catholics, Evangelicals, Jews, and Muslims.

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15. Comment #113180 by LorienRyan on January 18, 2008 at 7:34 pm

 avatarThis reminds me of how Pigmys would catch monkeys by placing pumkin seeds in a hole in the side of a tree, when the monkeys put their hand in and grab the seeds they wouldn't let go of the seeds - hence would become trapped by their clenched fist - the Pigmys would then bash the monkey on the head.

When are these psuedo-religous people going to realize - just let go of the proverbial pumkin seed!

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16. Comment #113181 by Richard Morgan on January 18, 2008 at 7:49 pm

 avatarAll this is perfectly predictable. What could be more logical than re-writing God? Or re-inventing God, if you prefer.
God is a human creation, so why shouldn't we humans be allowed to up-date our creation?
What keeps him from dropping his belief is an overpowering feeling....

"Feeling" - get it?
When you have to choose between feelings and facts, people usually end up choosing the facts that fit the feelings. That's what people do.


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17. Comment #113183 by jaytee_555 on January 18, 2008 at 7:58 pm

Seems to me to be a rather long boring and uninteresting article. Nothing much is being said except that the gaps where the theists need to install their 'God of the Gaps' are getting to few and too small.

I suspect that soon, some clever theologian with come along and explain how God is really the Ultimate Minimalist who demonstrates his infinite power by being totally invisible and doing absolutely nothing. Now what could be more awesome than that?

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18. Comment #113186 by Cartomancer on January 18, 2008 at 8:11 pm

 avatarA world that doesn't actually have any gods at all maybe? I'm sure I came across one of those somewhere today...

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19. Comment #113188 by Roland_F on January 18, 2008 at 8:14 pm

What's new ??
Deism is just pulling back the God of the gaps all the way to the very beginning of the universe, basic constants of nature and evolution rules. So they have still some gap filler for the meaning of life left.
Many theists acknowledging the scientific findings and are talking more of a deist God, mixing it up with some theist God who still listening to their prayers and still try to keep their old fairy tale book alive somehow – an exercise which requires quite some bending backwards .

There was this 'Pagan Christ' topic here in the forum, where the priest Tom Harpur – was finding out that Jesus is the copy of the Egypt Horus myth from 2000BC. He then rethinks his whole Christian religion and define "the Jesus in all of us" more like Buddhist teaching but is still practicing as Anglican priest.

At least these developments are not obstructing the advance of science with fundamentalist or creationists crap.

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20. Comment #113193 by quill on January 18, 2008 at 8:54 pm

 avatarCalvin College... Named for the man who burned Michael Servetus at a stake with a copy of his book nailed to his chest?

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21. Comment #113197 by Plan 9 on January 18, 2008 at 9:14 pm

 avatar"When are these psuedo-religous people going to realize - just let go of the proverbial pumkin seed!"

Great analogy LorienRyan.

In this case, the pumpkin seed is the immortality they have all been struggling to convince themselves of all their lives. They will never let go.
The whole approach presented in this article seems like nothing more than a 'have your cake and eat it too' argument, whereby scientific arguments are conceded to but God is still maintained in the background so that the pumpkin seed of immortality can still be held on to.

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22. Comment #113198 by kraut on January 18, 2008 at 9:14 pm

"how God is really the Ultimate Minimalist who demonstrates his infinite power by being totally invisible and doing absolutely nothing. Now what could be more awesome than that?"

That church has already been invented by Kurt Vonnegut

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23. Comment #113200 by AshtonBlack on January 18, 2008 at 9:23 pm

 avatarBleh..... Maybe I'm becoming too radicalised, but I found this sugar coated version of god just as balking as the traditional Abrahamic god.

Sod it...

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24. Comment #113201 by dragonfirematrix on January 18, 2008 at 9:35 pm

 avatar"Their beliefs demanded a God of absolute power who intervened constantly in the history of life and in human affairs."

It is my opinion that the above sentence alone proves the non-existence of any god.

Please consider my reasons…

Christians claim (if I hear them correctly) their god created everything, and the Christians claim (if I hear them correctly) their god is in control of everything, and the Christians (if I hear them correctly) claim their god is a god of love.

Enough said.

If (as the Christians claim) their Christian god created everything, then it is the Christian god, who created all the hate, oppression, poverty, decease, natural disasters, war, suffering, and death (to name a few) that takes the lives of so many innocent people every day.

If (as the Christians claim) their Christian god is control of everything, then how is it he/she/it cannot prevent the hate, oppression, poverty, decease, natural disasters, war, suffering, and death (to name a few) that takes the lives of so many innocent people every day.

And finally…

If (as the Christians claim) their Christian god is a god of love who loves his children, then why does he/she/it cause so much hate, oppression, poverty, decease, natural disasters, war, suffering, and death (to name a few) that takes the lives of so many of his/her/its innocent children every day.

I ask the religious to explain their god's actions, and I ask the religious to explain why they believe (and approve) in their god's actions.

I also ask the Christians that considering all the above, why should I believe in their god?

Finally...

God (any god) is, without a doubt, imaginary.

Wayne (Forest, VA)

Other Comments by dragonfirematrix

25. Comment #113202 by NormanDoering on January 18, 2008 at 9:43 pm

Van Till isn't necessarily a deist. All that has been described for him is deism, but he might still be fitting in those "biblical stories" -- like Jesus dying for your sins. It's simply unclear what Van Till believes about the Bible.

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26. Comment #113206 by Shuggy on January 18, 2008 at 11:10 pm

 avatar15. Comment #113173 by Ducklike
Okay, everybody run up to your attics and dig out those "Sgt. Pepper" albums, we've got some work to do!
Just what I was thinking. Loudspeaker vans outside churches? "Fixing a hole" certainly, and "I read the news today, oh boy" [I forget the title] and "Within You Without You" and maybe "Being for the benefit of Mr Kite" but "Lovely Rita"? "She's leaving home"?

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27. Comment #113207 by MelM on January 18, 2008 at 11:20 pm

Some "highlights":

"He began to think of God as a silent presence within nature, the source of the nameless awe he felt when studying the genesis of solar systems and the life of our endlessly fertile planet."

"Evolution, they contend, is more than a soulless explanation for the development of life. It is a glimpse of a divine plan so subtle it's almost invisible. Some scholars call the idea "theistic evolution," though the term has been slow to catch on."

"Most important, the process does not follow a preordained path, because God loved the world enough to set it free."

"Put simply, evolution seems to explain much of the design that religions always attributed to God."

"My dream is to bring together open-minded, deep-thinking scientists and theologians to try to construct a new theology of how the universe is put together and how God works within that universe," Collins says. "It should be a celebration theology instead of a defensive theology.""

"But the notion of divine intervention in our world can be a problem for the apostles of theistic evolution. Kenneth Miller of Brown has suggested that God might nudge events in the natural world through imperceptible changes at the quantum level. Other believers, like Francis Collins, say that old-fashioned miracles are perfectly consistent with a scientific worldview because science is concerned only with natural processes, not God's supernatural action. Collins says his standard of evidence for believing in a miracle is high, but he doesn't dismiss them out of hand."

""For me, as a believer who sees God as the author of natural laws, why would it be such a stretch to imagine that such a being could, on rare occasions, suspend those laws?" Collins says."

Same old drivel!
In order to know things, scientists and the rest of us too--have to look at the world with care, make observations, form inductions, concepts, and theories. All these people do is create hack rationalizations. Someone finds something absurd and the solution is to hack another defense which has no foundation--just like the position giving them a problem: an endless recursion. These drivelers have invented a god with no point at all--no reason to exist. If they think they can convert Huck and his pals to this, they're as goofy as he is.

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28. Comment #113208 by LorienRyan on January 18, 2008 at 11:27 pm

 avatarPlan9,

Precisely, fear of death is the driving force behind religion, deism, whatever - same thing.

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29. Comment #113219 by stevencarrwork on January 19, 2008 at 1:22 am

The article is yet more confirmation that theology is making anything up that makes you feel comfortable.

Why is it still a university subject?

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30. Comment #113220 by gcdavis on January 19, 2008 at 2:28 am

 avatarThe author demonstrates a typically insular view of an American correspondent; he has obviously not travelled to the UK or Europe. Only a handful of christian leaders here believe in creationism, most accept and have done for decades, the Darwinian view of evolution. That is why the christian religion, particularly the anglican variant, is not taken too seriously here and has been in slow decline for generations.

Dawkins is right, either you take the literal biblical view or you regard the whole enterprise as bollocks, to try and steer a middle way, cherry picking the bible, to make it fit your current view is at the very least disingenuous but more like likely a monstrous self deception.

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31. Comment #113221 by suffolkthinker on January 19, 2008 at 2:38 am

Much of this is either just Deism or "god of the gaps" stuff. Pointless.

Once you admit any part of your favourite holy book is not literal truth stopping short of anything less than atheism is wooly thinking at best or dishonesty at worst. Ok I might let them call themselve "agnostic" if it helps their self image but there is no practial difference.

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32. Comment #113223 by Geoff on January 19, 2008 at 2:49 am

 avatarI found it a curiously muddled article, as if he was struggling to please everyone (even quoting Dumbski, for FSM's sake!).

Some great one-liners in it, though:

"The key is to correct your portrait of God"

Indeed! It becomes a blank page, like Pat Condell's "non-fiction" version of the bible.

"a divine plan so subtle it's almost invisible"

Almost?

"Intelligent design's shortcomings as science are immense"

which is rather like saying a banana's shortcomings as an aircraft are immense.

"why would it be such a stretch to imagine that such a being could, on rare occasions, suspend those laws?"

Imagine, sure. Observe? Nope.

Other Comments by Geoff

33. Comment #113225 by epeeist on January 19, 2008 at 3:24 am

 avatarIt reminds me of watching people on the beach (at least here in the UK). They dip their toe in the water, decide it is too cold and come back out again. They keep repeating this until finally they raise the courage to actually wade out and start swimming.

We just need to keep encouraging them - "Come in, the water's fine."

Other Comments by epeeist

34. Comment #113226 by Verylee on January 19, 2008 at 3:26 am

 avatarThe Emperor's wearing no clothes but his blind faithful courtiers have vivid imaginations.

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35. Comment #113228 by Roland_F on January 19, 2008 at 3:34 am

I think at least deism is a reasonable strategy as the first step…
Some theist are becoming agnostic and some theist desire some kind of 'very remote' deist God to still feel some comfort.
Let's see it as a first step towards enlightenment.
Little chicks can't leave their mother hen shield right away and little babies have to learn step by step to walk on their own feet.

Other Comments by Roland_F

36. Comment #113231 by Szkeptik on January 19, 2008 at 3:54 am

This theistic evolution idea is a very good example for the ease of picking some verses from the bible and twisting and stretching them until they confort your views.

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37. Comment #113235 by AfraidToDie on January 19, 2008 at 4:12 am

 avatar
Reconciling the biblical God with Darwin's theories would challenge even an omnipotent being. But a growing number of thinkers and scientists are altering their concept of the deity to make room for evolution.


I've just been reaffirmed in humanity by reading "New Voices" article in the Orlando Florida forum for readers under 30. The link below is to an opinion by a 17 year old highschool student titled "Time for debate to evolve". This is quite refreshing, especially coming from Florida. She makes no attempt to make room for the teaching of ID in the classroom. I can't wait for the fallout in the reader reviews over the next few days.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/orl-newvoices19a08jan19,0,5685754.story?coll=orl_news_opinion_util

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38. Comment #113236 by Steve Zara on January 19, 2008 at 4:13 am

 avatar
"For me, as a believer who sees God as the author of natural laws, why would it be such a stretch to imagine that such a being could, on rare occasions, suspend those laws?" Collins says.


This is very sloppy thinking. The natural laws that would have to be changed to permit miracles aren't arbitrary. They are based on simple mathematical ideas, such as symmetry. There are no levers that even a God could pull to make those symmetries in some way "false". The phrase "suspending the laws of nature" may turn out to be meaningless in this context; it may be equivalent to insisting that all God had to do is to make squares with three corners.

We aren't talking about changing anything as simple as the physical constants, such as the strength of gravity, or the speed of light (which are conceivable), but suspending laws like the conservation of energy.

The idea that the laws of Nature require an "author" and are "changeable" is easy to say, but when you think about it, is pretty bizarre.

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39. Comment #113255 by Richard Morgan on January 19, 2008 at 5:24 am

 avatarThis is homeopathy applied to God! He's getting diluted out of existence. But, applying our good ol' Hahnemann's principles, the greater the degree of dilution, the more effective the remedy.
"the consequence of infinite mystery contracting itself - doesn't that sound like homoeopathic magical disappearing tricks? There are no more gaps? That means God is everywhere!
Frankly, I found this article a lot fun. Sure, it's just telling us what we already knew about human nature, but for me it's just as harmless as a handful of homoeopathic pills. And sadly, perhaps, just as insidious as well. The problem isn't the pills - it's what people believe about them.

Frédéric Dard said it before me : "Sometimes I gaze out at the universe and think - if God could create all that without even existing, that truly is a miracle."
Theologians as the Emperor's tailors - yes, I can go for that.

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

40. Comment #113265 by ADH on January 19, 2008 at 6:43 am

"This is very sloppy thinking. The natural laws that would have to be changed to permit miracles aren't arbitrary. They are based on simple mat hematical ideas, such as symmetry"

Steve this is not sloppy thinking. When God suspends the natural laws he does not make those laws null and void. The laws still obtain, the are not "changed" in order to accommodate a miracle. What is sloppy thinking for you, I suspect, is the fact of believing in a Creator in the first place - not believing that he can suspend the laws of nature. If you believed in a Creator you would surely have no trouble believing that the laws he instituted could be suspended!

Other Comments by ADH

41. Comment #113266 by Peacebeuponme on January 19, 2008 at 6:55 am

ADH - welcome back.

Of course, you can define God in your own way. You can say, "I believe in a God who could suspend gravity, make a 3-cornered square or make pi excactly three". But following it through, and given all we know about the natural laws and concepts, how likely is it that such a being can exist? You define god in such a way that it is almost impossible for him to be there.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

42. Comment #113267 by TonyA on January 19, 2008 at 6:57 am

 avatar
If you believed in a Creator you would surely have no trouble believing that the laws he instituted could be suspended!
If you could believe in a Creator, then you could believe in anything at all, regardless of the absurdity. It is an inevitable result of yielding your critical thinking skills to perceived authority figures that almost certainly know less than you think they do.

Is the holy trinity anything more than a square with three corners?

Other Comments by TonyA

43. Comment #113269 by Johnny O on January 19, 2008 at 7:00 am

 avatarThis nonsense is just God-Lite. The TAB of Religions. I almost have more respect for the Creationists, they are at least following their good book.
Indeed, many scientists and even theologians believe that Darwin's theory requires throwing out old ideas about divine design.

That sentence is exactly one word too long.

Other Comments by Johnny O

44. Comment #113270 by epeeist on January 19, 2008 at 7:02 am

 avatarWelcome back ADH, glad to see you have two hands free.

I hope it wasn't me how caused you to leave, but I would appreciate an answer as to exactly what you would do for the point I raised here:

http://richarddawkins.net/articleComments,2108,Six-Reasons-to-be-an-Atheist,The-Little-Book-of-Atheist-Spirituality,page10#110470

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45. Comment #113273 by Steve Zara on January 19, 2008 at 7:25 am

 avatar
Steve this is not sloppy thinking. When God suspends the natural laws he does not make those laws null and void. The laws still obtain, the are not "changed" in order to accommodate a miracle.


The suspension of a laws is a change. It means that various symmetries have been declared temporarily, at a certain time and place, null and void.

What is sloppy thinking for you, I suspect, is the fact of believing in a Creator in the first place - not believing that he can suspend the laws of nature.


Well, yes, but I deal with each issue as it turns up.

If you believed in a Creator you would surely have no trouble believing that the laws he instituted could be suspended!


The problem is believing that he instituted them. As the old question goes, can God make 2 + 2 = 5? That is the kind of level at which these symmetries work.

And, of course, there is the question of how God instituted such laws, even if they where mutable. Unless you can come up with a mechanism for this, you are in no position to claim that God did it.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

46. Comment #113274 by Johnny O on January 19, 2008 at 7:27 am

 avatar
He rides around Oxford on a simple blue bicycle with a wicker basket on the handlebars, and he hasn't quite mastered his iPhone

RD has an iPhone?

C'Mon Professor, they're all hype. A superb media player but with a 4 year old phone attached, (no picture messaging, no video camera, internet connection is almost slower than drawing it unless you are in a wi-fi hotspot, not bluetooth compatible).

Take it back and get yourself a Nokia N95, (8GB memory, 5 Mega Pixel camera, 30 Frames p/s video, sat nav, 3G)

Other Comments by Johnny O

47. Comment #113291 by onclepsycho on January 19, 2008 at 8:22 am

"He began to think of God as a silent presence within nature"

Silent, invisible, non-intervening, odorless, tasteless... Good, we're getting closer.

Other Comments by onclepsycho

48. Comment #113292 by ADH on January 19, 2008 at 8:24 am

"So, what would you do? All you given us is a politicians answer? What is the timeless, unambiguous, right thing to do in this situation?"

Epeeist. You didn't cause me to leave. I haven't got such thin skin. I just wanted to take some time off - pressures of work etc.

I can't really remember the specific situation in question. But I should say that there is never a detailed instruction sheet for us to follow in any situation. We are left to work out the specific implications of "love God with all your yeart mind and soul and your neighbour as yourself" in every situation where choices have to be made and priorities established. Sometimes we get it wrong, even with the best will in the world.

Other Comments by ADH

49. Comment #113293 by Canuck#1 on January 19, 2008 at 8:24 am

 avatarSuch a wonderful,fuzzy,nebulous, warm feeling...GOD EXISTS...I get the same feelings from...hugging my grandchildren, working in my garden, my morning coffee, long walks, making love, a good book, reading VANITY FAIR...why would I need to invent a god to accomplish this when it is all here for the taking...

Other Comments by Canuck#1

50. Comment #113294 by Double Bass Atheist on January 19, 2008 at 8:27 am

 avatar
"In a curious way, Dawkins and his fellow scientific atheists espouse the same notion of God that drives their sworn enemies, the creationists who oppose teaching evolution in public schools. For both camps, the only God who makes sense is one who designed all life with exquisite attention to detail."

Reg commented:
It is very early in the morning; I know I'm tired, so I have read this over a few times to no avail, it still troubles me. So, can someone here either put meat on this skeleton? Or grind its bones to dust. I just cannot recall our Richard ever espousing such a view.


Reg,
I think your confusion perhaps stems from a misreading of the writer's point at this juncture of the article. He was saying that both Dawkins' and Creationist's views are based upon the supposed existence of a personal, prayer-answering, meddling god. In other words, that's the god that most religionists believe in and the one that Dawkins (and we) do not. The point here is that both the Creationists and Dawkins do NOT like the idea of a marginalized 'god' that the "theistic evolutionists" seem to want to accept. Both camps would say either the omnipotent biblical god exists or it does not. That's what the debate is over.
Does that help clear the morning fog? ;-)

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