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Saturday, January 19, 2008 | Reason : Political | print version Print | Comments

Document What Religion's Blind Stranglehold on America Is Doing to Our Democracy

by AlterNet

Thanks to Gary Walsh for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.alternet.org/story/73764/?page=entire

We've got to find a way to take the conservative symbolic message of faith talk out of American politics.

It's a presidential campaign like no other. The candidates have been falling all over each other in their rush to declare the depth and sincerity of their religious faith. The pundits have been just as eager to raise questions that seem obvious and important: Should we let religious beliefs influence the making of law and public policy? If so, in what way and to what extent? Those questions, however, assume that candidates bring the subject of faith into the political arena largely to justify -- or turn up the heat under -- their policy positions. In fact, faith talk often has little to do with candidates' stands on the issues. There's something else going on here.

Look at the TV ad that brought Mike Huckabee out of obscurity in Iowa, the one that identified him as a "Christian Leader" who proclaims: "Faith doesn't just influence me. It really defines me." That ad did indeed mention a couple of actual political issues -- the usual suspects, abortion and gay marriage -- but only in passing. Then Huckabee followed up with a red sweater-themed Christmas ad that actively encouraged voters to ignore the issues. We're all tired of politics, the kindly pastor indicated. Let's just drop all the policy stuff and talk about Christmas -- and Christ.

Ads like his aren't meant to argue policy. They aim to create an image -- in this case, of a good Christian with a steady moral compass who sticks to his principles. At a deeper level, faith-talk ads work hard to turn the candidate -- whatever candidate -- into a bulwark of solidity, a symbol of certainty; their goal is to offer assurance that the basic rules for living remain fixed, objective truths, as true as religion.

In a time when the world seems like a shaky place -- whether you have a child in Iraq, a mortgage you may not be able to meet, a pension threatening to head south, a job evaporating under you, a loved one battling drug or alcohol addiction, an ex who just came out as gay or born-again, or a president you just can't trust -- you may begin to wonder whether there is any moral order in the universe. Are the very foundations of society so shaky that they might not hold up for long? Words about faith -- nearly any words -- speak reassuringly to such fears, which haunt millions of Americans.

These fears and the religious responses to them have been a key to the political success of the religious right in recent decades. Randall Balmer, a leading scholar of evangelical Christianity, points out that it's offered not so much "issues" to mobilize around as "an unambiguous morality in an age of moral and ethical uncertainty."

Mitt Romney was courting the evangelical-swinging-toward-Huckabee vote when he, too, went out of his way to link religion with moral absolutes in his big Iowa speech on faith. Our "common creed of moral convictions? the firm ground on which Americans of different faiths meet" turned out, utterly unsurprisingly, to be none other than religious soil: "We believe that every single human being is a child of God? liberty is a gift of God." No doubts allowed here.

American politicians have regularly wielded religious language and symbolism in their moments of need, and such faith talk has always helped provide a sense of moral certainty in a shape-shifting world. But in the better years of the previous century, candidates used religion mostly as an adjunct to the real meat of the political process, a tool to whip up support for policies.

How times have changed. Think of it, perhaps, as a way to measure the powerful sense of unsettledness that has taken a firm hold on American society. Candidates increasingly keep their talk about religion separate from specific campaign issues. They promote faith as something important and valuable in and of itself in the election process. They invariably avow the deep roots of their religious faith and link it not with issues, but with certitude itself.

Sometimes it seems that Democrats do this with even more grim regularity than Republicans. John Edwards, for example, reassured the nation that "the hand of God today is in every step of what happens with me and every human being that exists on this planet." In the same forum, Hillary Clinton proclaimed that she "had a grounding in faith that gave me the courage and the strength to do what I thought was right, regardless of what the world thought. And that's all one can expect or hope for."

When religious language enters the political arena in this way, as an end in itself, it always sends the same symbolic message: Yes, Virginia (or Iowa or New Hampshire or South Carolina) there are absolute values, universal truths that can never change. You are not adrift in a sea of moral chaos. Elect me and you're sure to have a fixed mooring to hold you and your community fast forever.

That message does its work in cultural depths that arguments about the separation of church and state can never touch. Even if the candidates themselves don't always understand what their words are doing, this is the biggest, most overlooked piece in today's faith and politics puzzle -- and once you start looking for it, you find it nearly everywhere on the political landscape.

The Threat to Democracy

So, when it comes to religion and politics, here's the most critical question: Should we turn the political arena into a stage to dramatize our quest for moral certainty? The simple answer is no -- for lots of reasons.

For starters, it's a direct threat to democracy. The essence of our system is that we, the people, get to choose our values. We don't discover them inscribed in the cosmos. So everything must be open to question, to debate, and therefore to change. In a democracy, there should be no fixed truth except that everyone has the right to offer a new view -- and to change his or her mind. It's a process whose outcome should never be predictable, a process without end. A claim to absolute truth -- any absolute truth -- stops that process.

For those of us who see the political arena as the place where the whole community gathers to work for a better world, it's even more important to insist that politics must be about large-scale change. The politics of moral absolutes sends just the opposite message: Don't worry, whatever small changes are necessary, it's only in order to resist the fundamental crumbling that frightens so many. Nothing really important can ever change.

Many liberals and progressives hear that profoundly conservative message even when it's hidden beneath all the reasonable arguments about church and state. That's one big reason they are often so quick to sound a shrill alarm at every sign of faith-based politics.

They also know how easy it is to go from "there is a fixed truth" to "I have that fixed truth." And they've seen that the fixed truth in question is all too often about personal behaviors that ought to be matters of free choice in a democracy.

Which brings us to the next danger: Words alone are rarely enough to reassure the uncertain. In fact, the more people rely on faith talk to pursue certainty, the more they may actually reinforce both anxiety and uncertainty. It's a small step indeed to move beyond the issue of individual self-control to controlling others through the passage of laws.

Campaigns to put the government's hands on our bodies are not usually missionary efforts meant to make us accept someone else's religion. They are much more often campaigns to stage symbolic dramas about self-control and moral reassurance.

Controlling the Passions

American culture has always put a spotlight on the question: Can you control your impulses and desires -- especially sexual desires -- enough to live up to the moral rules? As historian of religion John F. Wilson tells us, the quest for surety has typically focused on a "control of self" that "through discipline" finally becomes self-control. In the 2008 presidential campaign, this still remains true. Listen, for example, to Barack Obama: "My Bible tells me that if we train a child in the way he should go, when he is old he will not turn from it. So I think faith and guidance can help fortify? a sense of reverence that all young people should have for the act of sexual intimacy."

Mitt Romney fit snugly into the same mold. He started his widely-heralded statement on religion by talking about a time when "our nation faced its greatest peril," a threat to "the survival of a free land." Was he talking about terrorism? No. He immediately went on to warn that the real danger comes from "human passions unbridled." Only morality and religion can do the necessary bridling, he argued, quoting John Adams to make his case: "Our constitution was made for a moral and religious people" -- in other words, people who can control themselves. That's why "freedom requires religion."

All too often, though, the faith-talk view of freedom ends up taking away freedom. When Romney said he'd be "delighted" to sign "a federal ban on all abortions," only a minority of Americans approved of that position (if we can believe the polls), but it was a sizeable minority. For them, fear of unbridled passion is stronger than any commitment to personal freedom.

In the end, it may be mostly their own passions that they fear. But since the effort to control oneself is frustrating, it can easily turn into a quest for "control over other selves," to quote historian Wilson again, "with essentially bipolar frameworks for conceiving of the world: good versus bad, us versus them" -- "them" being liberals, secular humanists, wild kids, or whatever label the moment calls for.

The upholders of virtue want to convince each other that their values are absolutely true. So they stick together and stand firm against those who walk in error. As Romney put it, "Any person who has knelt in prayer to the Almighty has a friend and ally in me."

That's the main dynamic driving the movements to ban abortion and gay marriage. But they're just the latest in a long line of such movements, including those aimed at prohibiting or restricting alcohol, drugs, gambling, birth control, crime, and other behaviors that are, in a given period, styled as immoral.

Since it's always about getting "them" to control their passions, the target is usually personal behavior. But it doesn't have to be. Just about any law or policy can become a symbol of eternal moral truth -- even foreign policy, one area where liberals, embarked on their own faith-talk campaigns, are more likely to join conservatives.

The bipartisan war on terror has, for instance, been a symbolic drama of "us versus them," acting out a tale of moral truth. Rudolph Giuliani made the connection clear shortly after the 9/11 attack when he went to the United Nations to whip up support for that "war." "The era of moral relativism? must end," he demanded. "Moral relativism does not have a place in this discussion and debate."

Nor does it have a place in the current campaign debate about foreign policy. Candidate Huckabee, for example, has no hesitation about linking war abroad to the state of morality here at home. He wants to continue fighting in Iraq, he says, because "our way of life, our economic and moral strength, our civilization is at stake? I am determined to look this evil in the eye, confront it, defeat it." As his anti-gay marriage statement asks, "What's the point of keeping the terrorists at bay in the Middle East, if we can't keep decline and decadence at bay here at home?"

On the liberal side, the theme is more muted but still there. Barack Obama, for instance, has affirmed that the U.S. must "lead the world in battling immediate evils and promoting the ultimate good. I still believe that America is the last, best hope of Earth." Apparently that's why we need to keep tens of thousands of troops in Iraq indefinitely. Clinton calls for "a bipartisan consensus to ensure our interests, increase our security and advance our values," acting out "our deeply-held desire to remake the world as it ought to be." Apparently that's why, in her words, "we cannot take any option off the table in sending a clear message to the current leadership of Iran."

When words and policies become symbols of moral absolutes, they are usually about preventing some "evil" deed or turning things back to the way they (supposedly) used to be. So they are likely to have a conservative impact, even when they come from liberals.

The Future of Faith Talk

In itself, faith in politics poses no great danger to democracy as long as the debates are really about policies -- and religious values are translated into political values, articulated in ways that can be rationally debated by people who don't share them. The challenge is not to get religion out of politics. It's to get the quest for certitude out of politics.

The first step is to ask why that quest seems increasingly central to our politics today. It's not simply because a right-wing cabal wants to impose its religion on us. The cabal exists, but it's not powerful enough to shape the political scene on its own. That power lies with millions of voters across the political spectrum. Candidates talk about faith because they want to win votes.

Voters reward faith talk because they want candidates to offer them symbols of immutable moral order. The root of the problem lies in the underlying insecurities of voters, in a sense of powerlessness that makes change seem so frightening, and control -- especially of others -- so necessary.

The only way to alter that condition is to transform our society so that voters will feel empowered enough to take the risks, and tolerate the freedom that democracy requires. That would be genuine change. It's a political problem with a political solution. Until that solution begins to emerge, there is no way to take the conservative symbolic message of faith talk out of American politics.

Ira Chernus is Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder and author of Monsters To Destroy: The Neoconservative War on Terror and Sin.

Comments 1 - 38 of 38 |

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1. Comment #113428 by jshuey on January 19, 2008 at 2:57 pm

 avatarDr. Chernus may be an outstanding professor of "Religious Studies", but he lacks a basic understanding of the American political system.

The United States is not a democracy. Never was. The Founders deplored democracy and went out of their way to build up walls against it.

We are a Republic...a nation governed under the auspices of a Constitution that protects the rights of minorities from whatever the passion of the majority may be at the moment.

From the Bill of Rights to the Electoral College to the requirement for "super majorities" to amend the Constitution or over-ride a Presidential veto to the veto itself, all these things were designed to prevent mob rule.

And a good thing too. In a nation that is more than 70% christian, I'd hate to think how much deeper we might have sunk into theocracy than we actually have.

So while the candidates all bow and scrape to America's irrational majority, when it comes to actually governing it's another story.

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2. Comment #113472 by JerryD385 on January 19, 2008 at 4:50 pm

Wow. First post pleasantly surprises me. Somehow the idea of 'majority rule' has been hammered into us since grade school, making it immoral to even question if democracy is really the ideal. Good to see dogma being called out in all its forms

Other Comments by JerryD385

3. Comment #113495 by MelM on January 19, 2008 at 7:10 pm

Good comment jshuey.

Most often these days I see "democracy" used as spin by people who think they have the votes to get away with something or by people who say they've succeeded in fixing a country when they haven't and it's a mess. I find it incredible that sometimes I have to explain to people that just because we vote a bunch of people into office, that doesn't mean they have the power to violate our rights. One of the reasons for a Constitution (and a Supreme Court) is to protect us from the government.

Anyway, I looked up Huck's position on judges today and excerpted this quote: "The powers delegated to the federal government by the Constitution come from "We the People," and judges have no right to prohibit the people from passing democratically-enacted laws unless we have explicitly authorized them to do so. Nor can vaguely-worded language in the Constitution be used by judges to give them power over subjects the framers never intended our founding document to address."
http://www.mikehuckabee.com/?FuseAction=Issues.View&Issue_id=28

Whoa!.....What was that?...Did I read that correctly?

Some religionists both want to change the Constitution and keep judges from looking at their laws--"democracy". If I'm reading the quote correctly, Huck is one of them.

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4. Comment #113497 by Steve Zara on January 19, 2008 at 7:32 pm

 avatar
Nor can vaguely-worded language in the Constitution be used by judges to give them power over subjects the framers never intended our founding document to address.


I would have thought that having vaguely-worded language and allowing judges to interpret things is a pretty good way of allowing a system to adapt to a changing world with new legal subjects.

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5. Comment #113506 by MelM on January 19, 2008 at 8:13 pm

Broad principles--yes; vague language--no. But I have no idea exactly what Huck means or is whining about in that sentence; these nutters have learned the fine art of double-speek very very well.

When I read this "judges" page this morning, it seemed not to hang together very well but I haven't been back to dig further into this aspect.

It was just announced awhile ago the Huck has lost in South Carolina. That's good news but, as I recall, all of the Republican candidates are either nutters or have sold-out to the nutters. Another very important fact to consider is that Supreme Court judge Stevens (who is on the "liberal" side of the court) will be 88 years old this April. With one more nutter judge, it would be a 5 to 4 nutter court--very bad news.

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6. Comment #113511 by Andrew Stich on January 19, 2008 at 9:04 pm

Right, well, I think there's some linguistic confusion over the meaning of the word "democracy". It seems to me from the context that by "democracy", Dr. Chernus means old-fashioned, J.S. Mill-style liberalism. "So everything must be open to question, to debate, and therefore to change. In a democracy, there should be no fixed truth except that everyone has the right to offer a new view -- and to change his or her mind." Mind you, I agree that this isn't the correct use of the word "democracy".

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7. Comment #113519 by Mercurious on January 19, 2008 at 9:48 pm

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1/19/175629/012/188/439174

Want to see something even worse about Huckabee. Read the link above. This is truly scary stuff.

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8. Comment #113529 by Vinelectric on January 20, 2008 at 12:03 am

 avatarjshuey

Modern forms of representative democracies e.g the United Kingdom do have their charters (Magna Carta) and other forms of codified treaties that protect against the 'tyranny by majority' and other byproducts of a Greek-styled democracy. Apart from a written (but still ammendable) constitution all other aspects of legislation and election in a "Republic" appear essentially democratic.

Religious persuasion can contaminate the legistlative process even within a Republic, and in several significant ways, without touching the cornerstones of the constitution. A healthy state of 'democractic' debate should prevent this but self declared religious moral absolutism would jeapordise it. The author's point sounds pretty straight forward.

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9. Comment #113531 by AshtonBlack on January 20, 2008 at 12:25 am

 avatar@Mercurious

Thanks for the link, scary indeed :(

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10. Comment #113535 by MelM on January 20, 2008 at 12:37 am

Mercurious,

Thanks for the link. I followed it to the Talk2Action piece about connections to Gothard: http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/1/2/101614/4338

In the Salon.com piece, I got a big laugh out of this:
Referring to Huck's statements about changing the Constitution,
"That outburst appalled many Republicans, who heard those words as an assault on traditional conservative and libertarian values. The next day on National Review Online, Republican speechwriter and strategist Lisa Schiffren complained: "Mike Huckabee is going to force those of us who have wanted more religion in the town square to reexamine the merits of strict separation of church and state. He is the best advertisement ever for the ACLU."

Yes Lisa, the strict separation of church and state has merit--most especially, the separation of Huckabee and the state.

For those who may not recognize the name, the National Review is a very old conservative magazine. It is not at all without significance if it appears in the National Review. I'm not sure where they come down these days but, seeing people from the mag on TV at times, they seem to follow their own path.

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11. Comment #113536 by Mercurious on January 20, 2008 at 12:39 am

I know. The more I read the worse feeling I got. Even if Huckabee actually doesn't win, he could still end up as VP or a cabinet post. If he can't get the Constitution changed via Congress he has the support of a small, well armed "army". I am truly concerned in the direction this country is going. I'm currently torn if anyone like this gains any more political power than they already have. I'm either getting the hell out of dodge or its time for some serious civil disobedience.

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12. Comment #113568 by irate_atheist on January 20, 2008 at 4:12 am

 avatarLet's face it. They're all a bunch of munchkins.

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13. Comment #113605 by VanYoungman on January 20, 2008 at 6:53 am

 avatarWhy do you slander the munchkins?

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14. Comment #113629 by SMART on January 20, 2008 at 8:16 am

As "Professor of Religious Studies", Ira Chemus has impressive credentials and this article contains some thoughtful insight... but... I disagree profoundly with his assertion that, "The challenge is not to get religion out of politics. It's to get the quest for certitude out of politics."

What the Professor is missing (in my opinion) is that organized religion is in itself a declaration of certitude!

It is unthinkable that every single Presidential candidate is as pious as they make out. They present this face because they think it will win them votes - and at the moment they are probably right. But what if we rationalists spoke out?! What if we let all our politicians know that if they profess any reliance on invisible friends in the sky they will NOT get our vote.

Organizing atheists may be like herding cats but if we are to effect change with regard to religion's influence in politics then we have get off our butts and at the very least get writing some letters to the editor!

One day, a Presidential candidate will declare his or her atheism and that will be because of their perception that to NOT do so will lose them votes - the exact opposite of what we have today. How soon that day comes depends, in part, on our efforts.

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15. Comment #113700 by jshuey on January 20, 2008 at 11:01 am

 avatarVinelectric...

It is possible to have democratic institutions and processes without actually being a "democracy" in that word's purest sense. Ben Franklin once wrote that "A democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. A republic is a well-armed sheep disputing the vote."

SMART...

Good point...well put.

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16. Comment #113899 by hungarianelephant on January 21, 2008 at 1:13 am

 avatar
Nor can vaguely-worded language in the Constitution be used by judges to give them power over subjects the framers never intended our founding document to address.

He's talking about Roe v. Wade, right?

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17. Comment #113953 by mrjonno on January 21, 2008 at 4:39 am

People who worship secular documents are as bad as those who worship religious ones.

The views of long dead people just are not important in modern society

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18. Comment #113957 by Azven on January 21, 2008 at 4:47 am

 avatarHere's a question for candidates:
"If the American people democratically demand that you do something but God tells you to do the opposite, what will you do?"

A. Ignore the people;
B. Ignore God;
C. Seek medical help.

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19. Comment #113965 by irate_atheist on January 21, 2008 at 5:17 am

 avatar13. Comment #113605 by VanYoungman -
Why do you slander the munchkins?
Because they can't sue me for defamation.

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20. Comment #113977 by hungarianelephant on January 21, 2008 at 6:06 am

 avatar
mrjonno - People who worship secular documents are as bad as those who worship religious ones.

The views of long dead people just are not important in modern society

That's revolutionary talk ;)

A Constitution is much more than the views of long dead people. It describes the powers of branches of government and, in most cases, the principles on which the society is organised. It represents the collected experience, and hopefully wisdom, of history. Throwing it away, or interpreting it to mean the opposite of what it actually says, means ignoring that history. This rarely turns out to be a good idea. (I appreciate that you did not go this far.)

The difference between the Constitution and a religious document is exactly the one that Huckabee identifies - that the Constitution can be changed. I see this as a strength. He clearly doesn't.

IMO the constant arguments amongst Americans about the Constitution is an excellent thing. It shows that it is living, healthy and worth fighting over. Some will believe in a more literal interpretation than others, and/or be sceptical about the value of changing it. Few would do anything which could sensibly be described as "worshipping" it, and I don't think this characterisation is helpful.

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21. Comment #114027 by mrjonno on January 21, 2008 at 8:29 am

Well I'm British so obviously I don't like revolutions.

While you say a constitution can be changed the number of times I've heard from American atheists that 'this isnt what the founding father meant' you are moving into worship.

I couldn't care less about the moral views of people who have been dead for 200 years. Quite simply everyone from that age compared to modern times was a savage. Sure some were less savage than others but a moral authority today definitely not.

And what does 'the principles on which society is organised' actually mean. I suspect even that changes with time

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22. Comment #114029 by phasmagigas on January 21, 2008 at 8:46 am

 avatarthe US is a strange place. going off on a related tangent here but hear this: a young guy i know went to a probation assessment hearing and amongst the questions relating to his 'improvements' post his minor criminal activities he was asked in effect 'are you straight or homosexual?' 'do you practice safe sex'? and 'what are your religious beliefs?'

i was totally shocked, theres something very, very wrong with that. I wonder how the probation employees would have responded had the guy said im gay, i dont practice safe sex and im an atheist.

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23. Comment #114030 by hungarianelephant on January 21, 2008 at 8:55 am

 avatar
While you say a constitution can be changed the number of times I've heard from American atheists that 'this isnt what the founding father meant' you are moving into worship.

The only version of that statement I've heard is a rebuttal to the argument that "America is a Christian Nation".

It isn't "worship" to discuss what someone's intention was. It's a standard method of interpretation of any legal document. It's still the main guiding principle in English law.

I couldn't care less about the moral views of people who have been dead for 200 years. Quite simply everyone from that age compared to modern times was a savage. Sure some were less savage than others but a moral authority today definitely not.

Are you really, seriously suggestng that the likes of Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were "savages" whose opinions have less moral authority than that of, say, Bill Clinton?

And what does 'the principles on which society is organised' actually mean. I suspect even that changes with time

Of course it does. A constitution, even an unwritten one, gives you a reference point around which you can have a meaningful discussion. It can be departed from - a recent example was the dropping of Ireland's territorial claim to the six counties of Northern Ireland. But simply ignoring it and making up societal principles on the fly, which is essentially what NuLab has been up to, will always turn out to be a bad idea in the end.

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24. Comment #114045 by mrjonno on January 21, 2008 at 9:12 am

Are you really, seriously suggesting that the likes of Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were "savages" whose opinions have less moral authority than that of, say, Bill Clinton?


Actually I would go further than that , choose a random 100 people from any 1st world country (I choose 1st world to mean one with a functioning education system) and I would guess 90% of them would have more moral authority

They would agree that racism , slavery sexism and persecution of someone due to their sexuality was wrong. They would say that all people regardless of the above should have a say in how their society was run. This makes they way ahead (in fact centuries ahead) of people in the 18th century).

Its not that some people were not 'great' for their time but the important word was time

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25. Comment #114048 by hungarianelephant on January 21, 2008 at 9:23 am

 avatarWell I'm glad we got that cleared up.

We don't agree at all.

Certainly, most of your random 100 would agree with whatever the prevailing fashion is (though not enough to do anything about it more strenuous than writing a strongly worded employment policy). Many would also agree that drugs are bad and that having sex with a 15 year old is a good ground for castration. It doesn't make them a moral authority.

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26. Comment #114121 by mrjonno on January 21, 2008 at 11:57 am

What else is morality except prevailing fashion?
What is moral a 100 years ago is not acceptable today, what is acceptable today may well not be acceptable in a 100 years time.

Absolute morality simply does not exist, you can't get it from the bible, you can't get it from political versions (ie constitutions).

Was slavery a morally acceptable action?, to the people who practiced it of course it was.

Was burning heretics alive a good thing, of course it was to those purifying god's world

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27. Comment #114330 by BT Murtagh on January 22, 2008 at 1:04 am

 avatarOh for crying out loud...

American Heritage Dictionary
de·moc·ra·cy
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies

1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.

We frickin' are so a democracy - and a republic, they're not mutually incompatible. We are not a direct democracy, but a representative democracy is still a democracy.

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28. Comment #114335 by hungarianelephant on January 22, 2008 at 1:47 am

 avatarmrjonno - So what you are saying is:
(1) All morality is prevailing fashion
(2) Older morality than now is savage.

Do you not see the inconsistency here?

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29. Comment #114340 by mrjonno on January 22, 2008 at 2:30 am

mrjonno - So what you are saying is:
(1) All morality is prevailing fashion
(2) Older morality than now is savage.

Do you not see the inconsistency here


No. morality is the prevailing fashion, as in the general consensus. Often this consensus changes slowly.

For example Darwin a revolutionary scientist yet still a racist bigot (as was almost everyone who lived at those times)

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30. Comment #114354 by hungarianelephant on January 22, 2008 at 3:47 am

 avatar
Often this consensus changes slowly.

Yes, that is precisely the point, and that is (partly) what a constitution is for - to manage that change and be changed in response to it. Their other point is to establish how we go about making, and changing, rules.

Now what has that got to do with your argument about the absence of absolute morality (which I never disagreed with)? Or are you suggesting that constitutions are necessarily anachronistic and shouldn't exist?

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31. Comment #114355 by Steve Zara on January 22, 2008 at 3:58 am

 avatar
What else is morality except prevailing fashion?


It is a core of principles that is supplemented and modified by cultures.

The core is something like looking after those you are related to, your friends, and to a lesser extent those who you feel are like you. This can be extended because we can modify the "those who you feel are like you" part. In many societies that used not to include those of other races. It usually does now. Morality can be modified by strong beliefs, resulting in such atrocities as honour killing.

Although morality changes, it is pretty easy to see that it has a central core that has remained pretty much unchanged.

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32. Comment #114377 by mrjonno on January 22, 2008 at 5:38 am

I'm not a great fan of constitutions because it takes away power from politicians (hoorah) however it doesnt give them to people it gives to them to judges.

Maybe its different in the US but in the UK if you had to name a group that was even less trusted than politicans it would be judges.

When you start throwing meaningless words like 'freedom' and 'rights' into law via constitutions you just given incredible power to unelected judges. These words are meaningless because they can mean just about anything depending on who interprets them

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33. Comment #114413 by hungarianelephant on January 22, 2008 at 7:05 am

 avatarThat's an entirely different argument from the one you were originally making.

I don't agree with that one either, but if you want to continue the discussion, I suggest we do it in the forums. Don't want to irritate RD, do we?

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34. Comment #114796 by paulwwww on January 22, 2008 at 8:31 pm

I think there is something in the Constitution about no religious test for political office, darn shame that it seems like the politicians in this country seem to think friends to the fundies = votes. And as we have seen do, #%$&*!! Anyway I am a grassroots supporter of Ron Paul, and while he is a devout christian you can see his voting record follows the concepts written by the founding fathers, see H.Res. 847, "Recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian Faith," Christian nationalists, he is one of the "NO" votes.
Go Ron Paul!!!!

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35. Comment #114798 by al-rawandi on January 22, 2008 at 8:37 pm

 avatarBT Murtagh,


If you wanted to dig a little deeper in terms of etymology you would see that Demos has other implications.

The Nabataean King Heratat IV was know as philo demos "Lover of the people". The Demos here connotes the "common man". Demos can also mean "the mob".

So if we wanted to take democracy in the full fashion, I would object, because I don't see the common man ruling in the United States, I see the wealthy man ruling. In fact the common man has no absolute right regarding selection of the President, the Electoral College and the Supreme Court may disregard the populaces wishes to install someone more appropriate. We don't have to look into the too distant past to see this principle fucking as hard.

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36. Comment #114799 by al-rawandi on January 22, 2008 at 8:41 pm

 avatarmrjonno,

No constitution? With a constitution, politicians can still make substantive changes to the law and even to the constitution (in the US). Without a constitution, it only takes one asshole getting elected based on a common fear (I am thinking Jews maybe, Germany, ahhh memory fading, can't place name.... oh yeah Hitler) and things get a little hairy.

Even with judges and a constitution as well as politicians, we see human rights curtailed in America. Any void in power and an active government will fill the void and seize power. The are compelled by some need.

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37. Comment #114837 by Roger Stanyard on January 23, 2008 at 2:34 am

Al-Rawandi,

The UK has done pretty well without a written constitution.

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38. Comment #114859 by hungarianelephant on January 23, 2008 at 4:13 am

 avatarThe UK does have a written constitution. It's just not all written in the same place, and not very coherent.

That's why Tony Blair was able to rewrite it as he went along, with or without an electoral mandate. Whatever one thinks of his policies, I don't think he can sensibly be regarded as a Hitler figure, but he nevertheless reinforces al-rawandi's point that active governments will tend to fill the void. The surprise is that it took so long.

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