Sunday, January 20, 2008 | Reason : Wingnut News | print version

Honour Killings

by Iftikhar Ahmad

The following is an email that has been widely circulated in Britain. One response to this email has been posted at:
www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk

Honour killing and female infanticide come from Pagan-Hindu-Judeo-Christian traditions. Hindus idolise women as Goddesses on one hand, while downgrading them on the sly at the same time. There is nothing in the Holy Quran and the Hadiths that may encourage people to kill their daughters. Infact, Islam came to abolish the dark ages of Pagan- Hindu -Judeo- Christian traditions. Islam is a matter of choice and there is no compulsion at all. It is a misconception that forced marriage and honour killing are part of Muslim culture. Forced marriage, honour killing and genital mutilation are rare practices among migrant communities. Muslim migrants are worried about institutional racism, binge drinking, drug addiction, incivility, gun and knife crimes, high rate of abortions and teen age pregnancies. An average of 20 English girls under the age of 16 falls pregnant every day. Muslim parents do not want their children to be integrated into such barbarity. Muslim women feel torn between two cultures, thanks to the British education system with non-Muslim monolingual teachers. It makes their lives very confusing.

The tragedy of forced marriage and honour killing could have been avoided if the poor girls were educated in a single sex state funded Muslim schools by female Muslim teachers. Educational attainment rises quite significantly if boys and girls are educated separately. The tragedies are an eye opener for all those Muslim parents who send their children to state schools where they are exposed to non-Muslim teachers who have no respect for Islamic faith and Muslim community and do not understand the needs and demands of the Muslim children. Muslim schools are crucial for Muslim children because western education makes a man/woman stupid. The hypocrisy of the Western society is clearly seen whereas an Australian Judge failed to jail nine males who admitted gang-raping a 10-year old aborigine girl in 2005, saying the victim probably agreed to have sex with them and a UNICEF Photo of the year shows, a bridegroom, 40, with his 11-year old bride in Afghanistan. In my opinion, a UNICEF photo of the year must show a nine year British girl having a baby and another photo showing a gang of teenage girls with anti-social behaviour and vomiting out side a pub, thanks to binge drinking. Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. Muslim schools are the solutions and not a problem. They help to strengthen community cohesion, not undermine it. Muslim schools stand as shining beacons of light, serving as one of the most crucial factors which protect Muslim children from the onslaught of Eurocentricism, homosexuality, racism and secular values and traditions. They need to be well versed in Standard English to follow the National Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. At the same time they need to be well versed in Arabic, Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry. Muslim schools are not only faith schools but also bilingual schools. Infact, bilingualism is an asset and not a problem as perceived by the British education system. There is a positive co-relation between language and culture. English language is associated with western culture.

The silent majority of Muslim parents would like to send their children to Muslim schools but there are not enough schools to go by. The only alternative left is either British Government should introduce voucher system for parents to choose the school of their choice or designate all those state schools as Muslim community schools where Muslim pupils are in majority. There are hundreds of state schools where Muslims are in majority. Such schools may be handed over to Muslim educational Trusts or charities for their management. They are in a better position to educate Muslim children in accordance with their needs and demands. This demand is in accordance with the law of the land because there are state schools already managed by private companies. Muslim community is not asking for a favour. It is their legal right.

Iftikhar Ahmad

Add to del.icio.us Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2008 | Permalink

Comments 1 - 50 of 86 |

Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers

1. Comment #113659 by robotaholic on January 20, 2008 at 9:59 am

the Holy Quran

- I stopped reading at this point

Other Comments by robotaholic

2. Comment #113663 by Nails on January 20, 2008 at 10:09 am

Wow........

Wait a second.

British education makes people stupid?

Simple solution then. if muslim schools make better muslim children, then move to a muslim country - problem solved.
Why should my taxes be used to pay for ANY faith schools, let alone one which has only been introduced by migrants in the last couple of generations?

Forced marriage, honour killing and genital mutilation are NOT rare practices among migrant communities - they are all to common.
Even if they are rare, there is no place for them in a civilsed society which is based upon freedom of choice.

Articles like this make my blood boil.

Other Comments by Nails

3. Comment #113664 by Animavore on January 20, 2008 at 10:10 am

Protect their kids from society. Sure then they just grow up to be maladjusted cry babies. How can they say that western schools teach kids to be stupid? Your either stupid or you're not. It seems to me that they think that anything that isn't muslim is stupid. As for binge drinking. Never done me any harm.

Other Comments by Animavore

4. Comment #113665 by steveroot on January 20, 2008 at 10:12 am

Whoever wrote this has his head firmly up his rectum. I didn't get much further than robotaholic.

Wait... durn it, I was fooled again. It's the Onion, isn't it? Those folks are so clever!
Steve

Other Comments by steveroot

5. Comment #113674 by Richard Dawkins on January 20, 2008 at 10:19 am

The tragedy of forced marriage and honour killing could have been avoided if the poor girls were educated in a single sex state funded Muslim schools by female Muslim teachers.

Oh of course! If only the girls were properly educated to be nice, submissive, docile wives and mothers, WE WOULDN'T NEED TO KILL THEM. Oh how silly of me, I should have realised.

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

6. Comment #113679 by Paula Kirby on January 20, 2008 at 10:25 am

Richard Dawkins: If only the girls were properly educated to be nice, submissive, docile wives and mothers, WE WOULDN'T NEED TO KILL THEM.

I wonder whether this was the sort of thing Prince Charles had in mind when he expressed his support for "proper fundamentalism" ... (see "Mandrake" thread)

Maybe there's some truth in the conspiracy theories about Diana's death after all ;-))

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

7. Comment #113680 by justdust on January 20, 2008 at 10:25 am

Saudi Arabia

Other Comments by justdust

8. Comment #113681 by suffolkthinker on January 20, 2008 at 10:27 am

...Muslim schools are crucial for Muslim children...

That's where I gave up. The whole idea that children are somehow automatically a member of some religion is sickening.

Other Comments by suffolkthinker

9. Comment #113683 by Paula Kirby on January 20, 2008 at 10:29 am

[Muslim schools] are in a better position to educate Muslim children (sic) in accordance with their needs and demands.

Hmmm. Something tells me that it's not the children's needs and demands that are the author's real concern here.

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

10. Comment #113685 by epeeist on January 20, 2008 at 10:30 am

So step 1 is to take all schools where Muslims have 51% of the pupils or more and turn them into Muslim community schools. What happens to the non-Muslim children?

Presumably step 2 would be segregation

Which would lead nicely into step 3, dump all western education since it "makes you stupid" (though the article itself reeks with incoherencies) and only teach material appropriate to Islam.

And all done at the taxpayers expense.

Other Comments by epeeist

11. Comment #113686 by Vinelectric on January 20, 2008 at 10:30 am

Honour killing comes from Islamic laws that demand executing married adulterers. According to these laws unmarried "offenders" should, in fact, be flogged in public!

Two members of my middle eastern (extended) family were single unmarried mothers. That is still exceptionally rare but the ladies are in their 50s and not just still alive but respected members of the family. Among muslims, honour killings seem to be endemic to the East Asian communities. Apparently they still happen in Egypt but they are classified and reported as crimes by the media.

Other Comments by Vinelectric

12. Comment #113688 by Ian on January 20, 2008 at 10:38 am

The hypocrisy of the Western society is clearly seen whereas an Australian Judge failed to jail nine males who admitted gang-raping a 10-year old aborigine girl in 2005, saying the victim probably agreed to have sex with them and a UNICEF Photo of the year shows, a bridegroom, 40, with his 11-year old bride in Afghanistan. In my opinion, a UNICEF photo of the year must show a nine year British girl having a baby...

Dear Mr Ahmad,

A short lesson in sex. Human females cannot become pregnant until they have their first period, a time called menarche. The average onset of menarche varies between populations from 12 and a half to 18 years of age, with the low recorded among poor afro-americans. It is therefore IMPOSSIBLE for UNICEF or anyone else to show a picture of a nine-year old girl of any cultural background giving birth.

You are an ignorant, loathsome, bigotted fool and I'm afraid Steveroot, quite real.

Other Comments by Ian

13. Comment #113691 by kaiserkriss on January 20, 2008 at 10:45 am

G0 to any any of the sub Sahara Muslim cultures and you will find young girls in their early teens being married off and becoming PREGNANT.

What a double standard. This guy does not realize he is talking out of both sides of his mouth, depending on his audience. jcw

edit:spelling

Other Comments by kaiserkriss

14. Comment #113692 by AllanW on January 20, 2008 at 10:46 am

Put the explicit view represented here (educated in a single sex state funded Muslim schools by female Muslim teachers.) with the Telegraphs 'We want to offer Sharia law' article today and you have a clear picture.

It is not Islamophobic if they ARE out to change the country (remember the old joke? 'It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you').

Other Comments by AllanW

15. Comment #113693 by Peacebeuponme on January 20, 2008 at 10:47 am

I'm sorry if this is going to sound a little obtuse, but you kind of lose patience with these people. I really want to shout out to muslims like Mr Ahmad:

FUCK OFF TO SAUDI ARABIA THEN
FUCK OFF TO IRAN
FUCK OFF TO PAKISTAN
JUST GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE UK IF SHARIA IS YOUR THING

..hoping that doesn't come across a bit BNP.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

16. Comment #113694 by Spinoza on January 20, 2008 at 10:49 am

There are hundreds of state schools where Muslims are in majority. Such schools may be handed over to Muslim educational Trusts or charities for their management.

We can all see through that one... "Muslim educational Trusts or charities" = "Fronts for brainwashing/terrorist training." (obviously not in EVERY case, but given the bent of this letter, it seems clear that we Kafirs are being manipulated by pious-sounding language...)

It all goes back to the insistence of Spinoza that we NOT mistake superstition for piety. (and yet, 350 years later, we're still doing that!!! WHAT THE HELL!?)

LOL.

Other Comments by Spinoza

17. Comment #113699 by Christian on January 20, 2008 at 10:57 am

- I stopped reading at this point

Well, I read the whole thing and I as far as I'm concerned it's at least ten times worse than binge drinking.

[...]western education makes a man/woman stupid.

Muslim schools stand as shining beacons of light[...]

Yeah right, in bizarro world maybe. Somehow it has escaped him that the West with its stupid-spreading education has a much higher standard of living than most of the Islamic world with their "beacons of light".
And the state of science in almost all Muslim countries is even worse but I guess that science is just part of the "stupid" in our degenerate western education. "Beacons of light" are where you memorize the Quran while rocking back and forth and that day and night.

Other Comments by Christian

18. Comment #113710 by liberalartist on January 20, 2008 at 11:32 am

reading that article just made me stupid.

How about we do away with all religious education in the US and UK and try teaching science for a change....

Other Comments by liberalartist

19. Comment #113714 by clunkclickeverytrip on January 20, 2008 at 11:37 am

Religious education - the ultimate oxymoron.

Other Comments by clunkclickeverytrip

20. Comment #113715 by Corylus on January 20, 2008 at 11:41 am

I considered two different, but both awful, possibilities when I read this article.

1) That it is for real or

2) That it is a very, very clever document written by a neo-nazi type and circulated in order to spread hate (I have read extracts from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and have never forgotten that lesson) The combination of (relatively) good grammer and vocabularly with complete idiocy and bigotry raised my suspicions.

However, as this has been replied to by the London School of Islamics and taken as legit I have to assume the first option. (N.B. The email was criticised – however in a particularly mealy-mouthed and cowardly fashion).

http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk/DiscView.asp?mid=6224&forum_id=1&

Feeling quite queasy right now.

Other Comments by Corylus

21. Comment #113717 by Steve Zara on January 20, 2008 at 11:44 am

This is a crazy article, but I am going to try and give a measured response:

This is such a naive view of how to raise children. Anyone who thinks things can be improved by segregation and oppression is going to have quite a problem dealing with the consequences when the children start to think for themselves.

If such people were really interested in the welfare of children, they would look to countries where problems of teenage pregnancy is openly discussed and also rare (as, indeed, are honour killings). The models of society they should surely be looking are those of France, or Sweden.

Fortunately the ideas in this article have no chance of being taken seriously by the current UK Education minister.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

22. Comment #113722 by Fanusi Khiyal on January 20, 2008 at 11:52 am

Oh believe me, it get's worse than this. It gets much, much worse.

Professor Dawkins puts his finger on what exactly is wrong with the idea that we can appease these nutjobs: A world where we appeased them sufficiently wouldn't be one worth having.

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

23. Comment #113726 by Geoff on January 20, 2008 at 12:00 pm

I notice he didn't mention this case:

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL2057524920071120?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true

I don't see him calling for the 10-year old aborigine girl in his example to be flogged.

Other Comments by Geoff

24. Comment #113727 by drcancerman on January 20, 2008 at 12:00 pm

Pagan? Hindu? Jewish? Honour killing for a PAGAN?! A PAgan killing someone for honour?

That would be a first for me!

Other Comments by drcancerman

25. Comment #113729 by Alkal on January 20, 2008 at 12:07 pm

this is a joke, right?

I mean, they are basically saying "give us the right to abuse our women in our schools, you will not hear a peep from them"

Cannot people be imprisoned for such de-humanizing views... freedom of speech notwithstanding, and if they cannot then in the interests of freedom of speech apostates and heretics and those horrible "atheists" need to be heard as well. Well this kind of talk is hatem-ongering is it not?

Other Comments by Alkal

26. Comment #113734 by Prankster on January 20, 2008 at 12:16 pm

Ref the comment from Peacebeuponme

No it's not racist,no it's not a touch BNP you're actually only saying (or writing) what the majority people feel(not even going down the road of religion)....this guy make my blood curdle and he really talks out of his arse-he wants Muslim only faith schools

I suggest he fucks off to the middle east and sets them up there

Ah fuck it! I'm utterly sick of religion in all forms and belief systems- if a t**t like this can spew this garbage out then I'm packing it in and going abroad-any jobs going in the Australian or Canadian Civil Services by any chance? Anyone?

Other Comments by Prankster

27. Comment #113735 by Enlightenme.. on January 20, 2008 at 12:17 pm

"Articles like this make my blood boil"

It is not an article, it's an e-mail, it appears to be more like the ranting justifications of a disaffected teen to me.

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

28. Comment #113741 by Fanusi Khiyal on January 20, 2008 at 12:26 pm

Alkal

this is a joke, right?

I wish it were. Take a look at the Telegraph story about the introduction of Shariah law into Britain.

Cannot people be imprisoned for such de-humanizing views

Actually, they can. Advocating a crime - such as murder, abuse, rape, or deprivation of freedom - is punishable.

No it's not racist,no it's not a touch BNP you're actually only saying (or writing) what the majority people feel(not even going down the road of religion)....this guy make my blood curdle and he really talks out of his arse-he wants Muslim only faith schools

Prankster, allow me to explain the obvious: this is not racism, because Islam isn't a race. It's a religion. Peacebeuponme, correct me if I'm wrong, but I am guessing that you would be happy to see white converts to Islam buzz off to Saudi Arabia if they want Shariah, yes?

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

29. Comment #113742 by Strigoia on January 20, 2008 at 12:29 pm

The tragedy of forced marriage and honour killing could have been avoided if the poor girls were educated in a single sex state funded Muslim schools by female Muslim teachers.

Right, because anyone can see that places where boys and girls are educated together, such as Britian, have an absolute epidemic of honor killings when compared with Middle Eastern countries that follow Sharia law. (/sarcasm)

Other Comments by Strigoia

30. Comment #113744 by Prankster on January 20, 2008 at 12:31 pm

Enlightenme..

Perhaps we should just pity Mr Ahmad and ignore him.....he might give up and quietly disappear into oblivion taking his worldview and politics with him

Other Comments by Prankster

31. Comment #113745 by Goldy on January 20, 2008 at 12:35 pm

Given this and http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/01/20/nsharia_120.xml&CMP=ILC-mostviewedbox I wonder what sort of UK I'll come back to visit when I get a chance to make the trip back....

Other Comments by Goldy

32. Comment #113746 by Goldy on January 20, 2008 at 12:38 pm

Pagan? Hindu? Jewish? Honour killing for a PAGAN?! A PAgan killing someone for honour?

I believe it also happens in the Caucasus - Georgia and Armenia, I believe I have read, also have honour killings. Also the Balkans and maybe a few other places.
Probably is pagan - much of the current religions in the Middle East and Europe are very pagan in origin...

Other Comments by Goldy

33. Comment #113749 by Goldy on January 20, 2008 at 12:41 pm

An average of 20 English girls under the age of 16 falls pregnant every day. Muslim parents do not want their children to be integrated into such barbarity.

Yeah, they marry them off first ;-)

The image is startling -- a 40-year-old groom sitting beside his 11-year-old future bride. Photographer Stephanie Sinclair, who took the photo last year in Afghanistan, asked the pre-teenage bride what she felt on the day of her engagement.

"Nothing," said the girl, according to Sinclair. "I do not know this man. What am I supposed to feel?"

Picture at http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,524007,00.html

Other Comments by Goldy

34. Comment #113750 by AllanW on January 20, 2008 at 12:47 pm

Re; comment #113744 Prankster

"Perhaps we should just pity Mr Ahmad and ignore him" etc

I'd love to think this would be the path of least damage to our society but I don't think it is. The writer is not alone in his views and recommendations.

The sub-text of the message is; "Circumstances in this country need to be changed to allow the full application of Islamic teachings and law to be fulfilled." i.e. we want to change the rule of law here to be in accord with our religious teachings.

How can this viewpoint be compatible with the established rule of law in the UK?

There was an article in the Guradian recently; what should take precedence; the rule of law or religious law?. The answer in this country has been settled for three or four hundred years yet a significant number of the commentators in the CiF column immediately trotted out the knee-jerk view that 'we must respect their cultural traditions'. How does Islam (a religion NOT a race) have cultural values that supercede our own?

I disagree; I resent any challenge to the rule of law from any direction. I have many problems with how the law is arrived at and currently practiced in this country but as a society we all need to (and broadly do) accept that the way to change any particular aspect of that is through the ballot-box and lobbying.

Other Comments by AllanW

35. Comment #113751 by Enlightenme.. on January 20, 2008 at 12:48 pm

Prankster;
"Perhaps we should just pity Mr Ahmad and ignore him.....he might give up and quietly disappear into oblivion taking his worldview and politics with him"

No, exactly the opposite, we need to start communicating, before it's too late to change minds.

I was simply pointing out that we are responding to the ramblings of a nutter, as if it was an official press release from the MCB or something.

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

36. Comment #113755 by Nefrubyr on January 20, 2008 at 12:49 pm

... a UNICEF Photo of the year shows, a bridegroom, 40, with his 11-year old bride in Afghanistan.

Was his name Mohammed, by any chance?

Muslim women feel torn between two cultures, thanks to the British education system with non-Muslim monolingual teachers.

Is Muslim a language now? Shame on the British government for providing English-speaking teachers! The nerve of it!

Infact, bilingualism is an asset and not a problem as perceived by the British education system.

This must be a new development, as I was taught two foreign languages at school in the 1990s.

I was amazed, when scrolling back up to find these quotes, how short this piece is. I hadn't realised on my first reading how much inanity had been compressed into so little space. I applaud the writer's conciseness, but nothing else.

Other Comments by Nefrubyr

37. Comment #113759 by NineBerry on January 20, 2008 at 12:59 pm

All children have the same needs and demands: They need a good portion of education.

Other Comments by NineBerry

38. Comment #113766 by zendal_darkman on January 20, 2008 at 1:25 pm

I've come across this guy on the forums digitalspy.co.uk where he posted several rants, but never bothered to respond to any replies.

My gut reaction is that he should be ignored, unless it is established he has power or influence.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=189379

Established 1981
London School of Islamics
An Educational Trust
63 Margery Park Road London E7 9LD
Email: info@londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
Tel/Fax: 0208 555 2733 / 07817 112 667

Crime against Humanity

To deprive a Muslim child from his/her culture and language is a crime against Humanity. British education system is guilty of such crime for the last 50 years. The first wave of Muslims arrived with three or four languages including English but the next generation born and educated by native teachers has been subject to learn English in local accents, making them mis-fit not only for the British society at large but also for the whole world. A Muslim is the citizen of this small global village. On top of that they have been discouraged to learn Arabic and Urdu, making them cut off from their cultural roots. They are unable to enjoy the beauty of Urdu literature and poetry. They are unable to have a good communication with their parents and elders. All of them suffer from Identity Crises resulting in mental, emotional and social problems. We have lost three generations and fourth one is in the process of loosing its linguistic, Religious and cultural Identity. Respect and tolerance of different religions, cultures and languages are essential for positive community cohesion.

The solution of all those problems is state funded Muslim schools. Muslim parents should be given educational vouchers so that they could send their children to private Muslim schools. There are hundreds of state schools where Muslim pupils are in majority. In my opinion all such schools may be designated as Muslim community schools, under the control of Muslim Educational Trusts or Charities. Teacher is a role model. Bilingual Muslim teachers are required to teach bilingual Muslim pupils right from Nursery level.

The first wave of Muslims used English as an economic language and still it is meant for earning bread and butter and not used as a social and emotional language. English could become social and emotional language if Muslims start moving in and around pubs, night clubs and frequently changing partners. This is what the British establishment want them to do in order to become the integral part of the British society. Now Muslim Imams will need to show a basic command of spoken English before being allowed to enter the country to satisfy the spiritual needs of the Muslim community. The Imams from the sub-continent are already well versed in Urdu, Arabic, and Persian on top of their mother tongue, Punjabi, Bengali or Gujrati and other regional languages. Now they have to learn English as an extra burden. Urdu is a social and emotional language of the Muslims from the sub-continent and Arabic is their religious language. They are in a better position to serve the Muslim community in Arabic and Urdu so that they could feel at home in an alien British society.
Iftikhar Ahmad

Other Comments by zendal_darkman

39. Comment #113767 by alexlg on January 20, 2008 at 1:28 pm

Forced marriage, honour killing and genital mutilation are rare practices among migrant communities. Muslim migrants are worried about institutional racism, binge drinking, drug addiction, incivility, gun and knife crimes, high rate of abortions and teen age pregnancies.

Yeah, because a booze up is a lot more disgusting that a light bit of family killing.

Other Comments by alexlg

40. Comment #113773 by zoltix on January 20, 2008 at 1:43 pm

...muslim role models....

Like Mohammed - the perfect man for all time.
Married Aisha when she was six - consummated when she was nine.
Slave owner, robber and deviant.
Mohammed had people killed for criticising him.

We need to publicise the life of Mohammed as set out in the ahadith and not just the koran (although that's bad enough).
The justification for honour killings, suppression of free expression, murder of apostates, and general barbaric mentality comes from the sayings and behaviour of 'the prophet'.

We need to come down hard on any attempt to say that islam leads to a civilised society let alone be a 'religion of peace'.

Other Comments by zoltix

41. Comment #113784 by ianmkz on January 20, 2008 at 2:35 pm

At the risk of being seen to validate any of the ravings of the author - why is it that people who come from the armpit of the world find the West so offensive? Could it be that Westerners are not quite as impressive as we think? Does freedom go hand in hand with vomit in the streets?

Other Comments by ianmkz

42. Comment #113785 by Vinelectric on January 20, 2008 at 2:43 pm

zoltix

Like your avatar. By the way your mission won't be that easy. Take a look at this:

ANAS ibn Malik (RA) reports: "The Prophet was sitting in the mosque with some of his companions when a Bedouin urinated inside the mosque. The Prophet's Companions said: 'What is going on?' 'What are you doing?' The Prophet said to them: 'Do not interrupt him.' He subsequently called the man and said to him: 'These mosques are not the place where one can throw any dirt. They are meant for reciting the Quran, glorifying God and prayer.' He then called for a bucket of water and he poured it over the urine." (Bukhari, Muslim, Nessai, Malik and Ahmad).

This is apparently the same man who killed his critics (? source). He was different things at different times and reports on his life, although heterogenous and contradictory, do draw a picture of a successful no-nonesense military leader who emancipated slaves and put up with years of persecution.

Stick with the Quran. You'll find all the embarrasing texts that no one will dare challenge their authenticity.

By the way, that child was engaged to another grown man before he wed her!

Other Comments by Vinelectric

43. Comment #113786 by Graham on January 20, 2008 at 2:51 pm

Hold on a minute. We all can recognise the things that we disagree with, strongly, in this article. But if we are to ever move forward, then maybe we should disarm this man's arguments by addressing some of the concerns we might have in common.

I'm sure there are many parents who are concerned about their teenage children limiting their options in life by early unwanted pregnancy or being interested in nothing more constructive than binge drinking.

I wouldn't budge an inch on the negative aspects which many have pointed out, but maybe highlighting our common concerns would allow the negatives to dissolve away? The only long term solution is after all to break down the 'us and them' mentality, not stir it up.

Remember that fanatical theists often think there is something fundamentally different between those with and without religious belief (the us and them)...we know better...we have billions of years of ancestry in common (we are all us) :o)

Other Comments by Graham

44. Comment #113788 by PJG on January 20, 2008 at 2:55 pm

*Shakes head in a dispirited and hopeless way and searches for word or words adequate to express feelings on reading this email*

Finally, one comes to mind......

Whaaaaaaahhhh!!!

(Is that a "word"?)

Just read article about Charles too.... I DO have a word for him..... "Moron"

Edit:
Graham,
Of course there are things wrong with our society. The suggestion in the email is that a society based on Islamic teachings and values (especially, it seems, regarding women) makes for a better one with fewer problems.

I beg to differ.

Other Comments by PJG

45. Comment #113798 by Goldy on January 20, 2008 at 3:30 pm

Comment #113680 by justdust
Even Saudi Arabia is getting quite progressive ;-)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/01/21/wsaudi121.xml
Loved this paragraph

"Allowing women to drive will only bring sin," a letter to Al-Watan newspaper declared last year. "The evils it would bring - mixing between the genders, temptations, and tarnishing the reputation of devout Muslim women - outweigh the benefits."

Wonder if the author is the same as our esteemed Islamic gentleman above?

Addenda - wonder how much of a leap it is from Islamic schools to http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/20/magazine/20circumcision-t.html

According to Lukman Hakim, the foundation's chairman of social services, there are three "benefits" to circumcising girls.

"One, it will stabilize her libido," he said through an interpreter. "Two, it will make a woman look more beautiful in the eyes of her husband. And three, it will balance her psychology."

Other Comments by Goldy

46. Comment #113811 by Cartomancer on January 20, 2008 at 4:45 pm

Keep digging Mr. Ahmad, and if you wear out your shovel I will get you a new one.

Sickening and worthless individual...

Other Comments by Cartomancer

47. Comment #113820 by drcancerman on January 20, 2008 at 5:01 pm

by Comment #113746 by Goldy

I believe it also happens in the Caucasus - Georgia and Armenia, I believe I have read, also have honour killings. Also the Balkans and maybe a few other places.
Probably is pagan - much of the current religions in the Middle East and Europe are very pagan in origin...

They are? Are you sure? Middle east is INFESTED with islam! And islam is a religion that came from judeo-christian belief!

Other Comments by drcancerman

48. Comment #113824 by Steve Zara on January 20, 2008 at 5:09 pm

I would humbly suggest Hakim looks into the benefit of castration? That has certainly been shown to stabilise libido and "balance" psychology.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

49. Comment #113829 by rod-the-farmer on January 20, 2008 at 5:24 pm

OK, that follows...girls educated off by themselves will...uhh....somehow.....uhhh...not experience forced marriage or honour killings.....??? WTF ? How does THAT happen ? Actually the way the sentence is worded (possibly just another typo) the forced marriage and honour killing is a SINGLE tragedy. Surely he does not mean FIRST you get forced into marriage, THEN you are killed for someone elses honour ? Nah, that doesn't sound right, even for islamic nutjobs. And why call them "poor" girls ? Well, yes, being subject to forced marriage and honour killing, I suppose that qualifies.

The girls won't be forced into marriage because they were educated with no boys around ? Huh ? Danger, Will Robinson ! That does not compute ! The connection between them is.....? Never having been close to boys they will JUMP at the chance to marry any one of them ? Force is not required ? Nah. And as for the honour killings, the path from no boys in the class to a reduction or elimination of honour killings....???? Gee, ya got me there. Please explain.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

50. Comment #113836 by Radesq on January 20, 2008 at 5:52 pm

Graham is of course right that it is left to the rational of this world to try to bring these fools into some semblance of a realistic view of the world and to convince them to drop their superstitious and (I would argue) inherently violent and imperial ways. But it does grow tiring to always have adult voice of reason be shouted over by a cacophony of kooks. Especially after reading the umpteenth story of religious fanaticism or backwardness on this board -- sometimes I just want to ululate and act like a childish ass shooting my guns in the air.

Other Comments by Radesq