1. Comment #114567 by Elcristoph on January 22, 2008 at 12:24 pm

, NO F***ING WAY!!!!!!!!!!

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2. Comment #114578 by Ian Bamlett on January 22, 2008 at 12:34 pm

Boy, would I like to go to that.

I hope someone in the area from this site can show up and ask some awkward questions!

Other Comments by Ian Bamlett

3. Comment #114579 by Matt7895 on January 22, 2008 at 12:34 pm

'Truth, Lies and Science Education'

Great, are they finally admitting that they are a bunch of pricks then?

Other Comments by Matt7895

4. Comment #114599 by jeepyjay on January 22, 2008 at 12:55 pm

We at Leicester Secular Society have picketed Ken Ham's meetings that were held at Leicester University Student's Union building a few years ago. He has a very large following in the evangelical churches of Leicester.

On the last occasion he actually came to speak to me before going in to the building, and we exchanged a few words of argument. His publicity people even took some photos, and of course presented a skewed version of our conversation on their website for publicity purposes. I had a poster depicting Ken Ham as a "Prophet of Ignorance".

If you go into the meetings it is practically impossible to get a word of criticism in because it is all stage-managed. If someone of the stature of Richard Dawkins or P.Z.Myers were to turn up, then some exchange might be possible. Though of course they would turn it all to their own ends.

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5. Comment #114649 by andysin on January 22, 2008 at 2:03 pm

I'm from preston. It angers me that they have a creationist speaker there and more that I can't go. I hope somebody with some sense attends, I can't see it being as hard to criticize as a Ken Ham event.

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6. Comment #114663 by Adey73 on January 22, 2008 at 2:24 pm

Forgive me, but who he?

(ok,ok i read his website and have seen him on Dawkins et al).

I live in Blackpool but am not going to expend carbon seeing this tool.

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7. Comment #114664 by Ian Bamlett on January 22, 2008 at 2:27 pm

Forgive me, but who he?

No one you need to listen to. But someone you need to pay attention to.

If you get what I mean.

Other Comments by Ian Bamlett

8. Comment #114681 by TonyA on January 22, 2008 at 2:40 pm

Forgive me, but who he?

He is a young-Earth creationist, and a moronic nut-sack, whose ministry has said it "believes that evolution is the 'source' of many kinds of evil, and that rejection of God's Word as absolute authority and acceptance of evolutionary ideas will affect the way people think and act—and fuel social ills."

He is famous for his young-on-the-Earth, childish belief that dinosaurs co-existed with modern humans.

He has a book called "The Lie: Evolution" in which he shoots a huge chunk of hypocrisy out of his own ass.

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9. Comment #114693 by Deepthought on January 22, 2008 at 3:03 pm

I think that we should listen to their arguments. The comic relief value is tremendous.

I've been trying to read "Darwin on Trial" because a creationist friend of mine insists I read something that supports his side. I have been trying to work out how the fact that natural selection is a tautology makes it meaningless and that evolution is somehow wrong because it is an "unfalsifiable" hypothesis. To me it seems as though they are arguing that evolution is wrong because it is true. I'm almost certain I'm misunderstanding it because it makes so little sense. If this is the case could someone please correct me?

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10. Comment #114695 by Steve Zara on January 22, 2008 at 3:10 pm

I have been trying to work out how the fact that natural selection is a tautology makes it meaningless and that evolution is somehow wrong because it is an "unfalsifiable" hypothesis. To me it seems as though they are arguing that evolution is wrong because it is true. I'm almost certain I'm misunderstanding it because it makes so little sense. If this is the case could someone please correct me?

This is a common argument against evolution. The thing is, just because something sounds like a tautology does not make it false. It only makes it obvious!

The tautology such people tend describe is "what survives survives." Well, that is true. But it ignores the issue of why something survives, which is selection.

The tautology argument is about as silly as claiming Einstein's ideas about gravity are unfalsifiable "because what falls down, falls down".

Theories of Evolution are highly falsifiable. For example, if change where not shown to be driven primarily by selection, then Evolution by Natural Selection would be shown to have problems.

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11. Comment #114704 by notsobad on January 22, 2008 at 3:28 pm

You are giving this guy too much credit if you go there. He and other IDiots are not gonna change their minds about anything.

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12. Comment #114707 by Deepthought on January 22, 2008 at 3:39 pm

Thank you Steve. I was thinking something along the same lines and now I'm trying to work out how they believe what they are saying. I kind of stopped reading the book after that point.

Another argument in there was that "Dawkins' gilb answer that 50% of an eye is better than 49% of an eye" doesn't hold water because they are talking about the parts working together instead of visual acuity. I doubt he has read Climbing Mount Improbable . What is more worrying is that he may have.

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13. Comment #114715 by Steve Zara on January 22, 2008 at 3:54 pm

Another argument in there was that "Dawkins' gilb answer that 50% of an eye is better than 49% of an eye" doesn't hold water because they are talking about the parts working together instead of visual acuity. I doubt he has read Climbing Mount Improbable . What is more worrying is that he may have.

Well, ask anyone who has a cateract operation if their vision still works! So many of the "you need all the parts" arguments are so easily shown to be false. You can take the lens out and you still have something you can see with, that is far better than being blind.

The problem with creationists is that they use what seems like a scientific way of arguing, but they just aren't interested in having any of their arguments refuted, which is very easy.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

14. Comment #114730 by Deepthought on January 22, 2008 at 4:14 pm

It's a pity I don't have the book anymore. I'm sure I could find a direct quote about this.

The problem with creationists is that they use what seems like a scientific way of arguing, but they just aren't interested in having any of their arguments refuted, which is very easy.

That says it all really. I managed to refute a creationist's arguments with little more backing than reading half of On the Origin of Species, A Short History of Nearly Everything by Bill Bryson, and all the evolutionary theory that can be picked up from The Lost World. And common sense, of course. The creationist in question still believes all the things I disproved.

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15. Comment #114735 by Deepthought on January 22, 2008 at 4:30 pm

I just heard a radio evangelist saying that today's problems are due to us replacing God with Science and Technology. He then goes on to say that Science is "cruel impersonal and uncaring" and that we should return the "loving personal God of the universe" to the top of our society.

I wonder if he realizes that "evil" technology and science are allowing him to broadcast his "message".

Other Comments by Deepthought

16. Comment #114752 by alexmzk on January 22, 2008 at 5:50 pm

o good grief, what's that stupid fuck doing in the uk?

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17. Comment #114760 by mark8 on January 22, 2008 at 6:25 pm

Apparently they are plauging my pleasant place of birth Sunderland too.

Hetton-Le-Hole
91 The Avenue,
Hetton-Le-Hole, Sunderland
United Kingdom
Saturday, March 08, 2008 youth event
7:00 PM tba:tba
Sunday, March 09, 2008
10:30 AM tba:tba
5:30 PM tba:tba

Also various venues throughout Ireland/U.K.
Fahan Presbyterian Church 11-Mar-2008 -
Tooban
Burnfoot, Co Donegal
Republic of Ireland

Limavady Reformed Presbyterian Church 12-Mar-2008 -
Greystone Road (Beside the swimming pool)
Limavady
United Kingdom

How do you stop a plauge of locusts?

Other Comments by mark8

18. Comment #114764 by stuee on January 22, 2008 at 7:02 pm

TonyA:

"He has a book called "The Lie: Evolution" in which he shoots a huge chunk of hypocrisy out of his own ass."

Is that the one with the outrageously funny cartoon drawings? I distinctly remember a picture with two castles, one on the side of evil (evolution) and one on the creationist side.

Other Comments by stuee

19. Comment #114766 by Hunzer0 on January 22, 2008 at 7:03 pm

The termite queen is hatching a new brood to eat the brains unprotected by reason, logic, education, skepticism and science. It is hoped that there are fewer of those unprotected brains in the U.K. than there are in the U.S.

Other Comments by Hunzer0

20. Comment #114776 by PJG on January 22, 2008 at 7:26 pm

Parklands Leisure Centre is about 15 miles from me and if I thought there was anything to be gained by going, I would go.

However, I wouldn't want to go to "protest", as that just gives them publicity. I certainly wouldn't want to pay to get in (is there a charge?), as that increases their revenue, and there would be no point in going in order to try to "educate" them, for the reasons we all know.

Is it best to just ignore them (as we would something like a Flat Earth Society) and hope they go away?

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21. Comment #114802 by Slyer on January 22, 2008 at 9:38 pm

They've been left alone for well over a hundred years and they still haven't gone away...

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22. Comment #114807 by quill on January 22, 2008 at 10:19 pm

He's gone! Great! Now let's change the address of our country so he can't find us again.

Other Comments by quill

23. Comment #114818 by Veronique on January 23, 2008 at 12:43 am

15. Comment #114735 by Deepthought

And inoculate him against the ever-mutating viruses that threaten his health with their dark materials:-)

Haha
V

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24. Comment #114820 by YssiBoo on January 23, 2008 at 12:49 am

"I wonder if he realizes that "evil" technology and science are allowing him to broadcast his "message"." (How do I quote?)

That is exactly what I think when I hear those ignoramuses. If they truly believe modern technology is the root of all evil (or whatever), they should destroy their cars and rip out the electricity from their homes (along with the internet connection), throw out all medicin, refuse to go to the hospital, refuse to go to the dentist, (along with refusing to use x-ray and other radiation sort diagnosis equipment), stop using oil for heating, refuse to use firewood chopped with a chainsaw, oh where to stop... you get my point...

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25. Comment #114821 by scottishgeologist on January 23, 2008 at 1:00 am

Sounds like this is the second part of his UK campaign. He was in Scotland last year - I dont think his vist was exactly a stunning success. You can actually read his blog here:

http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/aroundtheworld/2007/09/06/on-the-road-in-scotland-continued/

Some of the comments are very telling. Eg:

"[Christians] are not giving to the church or Christian organizations. We need to remember how blessed we are in the United States compared to people over here, including the struggling churches and Christian organizations. Many churches are dying—there's no doubt about it. There are only a few good churches here."

Or how about:

"We were just about to leave Aberdeen and travel 1–2 hours to our hotel (it was around 11pm) when 3 teenage atheists came down to the front. The girl in particular said that I had no right to tell them what's right and what's wrong, and that she was going to live the life that she wanted. And how dare I come here and tell her that she can't do this or that"

Actually, the overall tone of his blog, IMO, is one of despair!

The venues that he chose for this tour were small-ish charismatic, evangie , non-traditional churches - the sort of places that get known as "christian centres" rather than churches.

It'll be interesting to see how he gets on on this tour. Keep us posted, English friends!

Cheers
SG

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

26. Comment #114822 by epeeist on January 23, 2008 at 1:02 am

Comment #114693 by Deepthought

I have been trying to work out how the fact that natural selection is a tautology makes it meaningless and that evolution is somehow wrong because it is an "unfalsifiable" hypothesis.

You are not the only one. Popper originally believed that natural selection was a tautology,but he later revised his ideas. See his later book "Conjectures and Refutations".

Other Comments by epeeist

27. Comment #114824 by AllanW on January 23, 2008 at 1:04 am

I'm going to check with the NSS and my local freethinker, humanist or rationalist groups to see if they are going to these things. Maybe Roger Stanyard could help us find out?

If not then I will go to the nearest to me, Preston. Not to debate them (that would do no good) and not to demonstrate (that would give them more publicity) but rather to record or video the presentation. They may not let me (and I may need to be a little sneaky) but I firmly believe that shining a little light on them makes them pause and reconsider at the very least.

I shall avoid any confrontation if at all possible but I do think that they should not feel that they are completely free to spread their pernicious lies without some polite concerned scrutiny.

Anybody else suggest another tack to take?

Other Comments by AllanW

28. Comment #114825 by Veronique on January 23, 2008 at 1:06 am

25. Comment #114820 by YssiBoo

Use this without the spaces:

< blockquote > text you want to copy < /blockquote >

It works, cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

29. Comment #114826 by PJG on January 23, 2008 at 1:08 am

If going along to these events is going to give them any publicity or credibility (because they can twist the attendance figures and claim that large numbers "support" them) then it is counter-productive from our point of view.

The only thing that DID cross my mind.... if a large enough number attended so that we could laugh (and encourage laughter) at all the ridiculous claims he makes, then maybe the meeting wouldn't go the way it was planned. I have seen the audiences in America, rapt concentration and awe on their faces (really scary!!!) but don't know how he (and his kind) go down in Britain. Would ridicule be possible? I don't see any other way of discouraging them.

If creationists found that their message was a source of entertainment rather than "education", maybe it would help? Rational discussion certainly doesn't work.

Of course I know they are not going to "just go away" - it was said tongue in cheek - but I AM at a loss. I don't want to see the creationists gaining ground here but feel rather powerless...

HELP!

Other Comments by PJG

30. Comment #114828 by Veronique on January 23, 2008 at 1:11 am

28. Comment #114824 by AllanW

Got a friend in the legal profession? Ensure that on public disclosure you can't be sued. It should be easy to find out. But Ken Ham (disgusting export from my country) is cluey.

Hey, I am with you, just check out the legals:-)
V

Other Comments by Veronique

31. Comment #114833 by AllanW on January 23, 2008 at 1:28 am

Thanks Veronique; willdo.

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32. Comment #114834 by Ilesere on January 23, 2008 at 1:40 am

Jeepyjay - are you intending on picketing this event? If so then I'm close enough to Leicester that I'll join you, and bring my camera so we can provide our own report of events.

And if anyone else is planning anything for the Oxford event then I may be able to make that one as well. Let me know.

I know not everyone agrees that picketing is the right thing to do but if anyone is planning an event then the more of us turn up the more likely we are to get some publicity our way and get some of our message across as well.

Other Comments by Ilesere

33. Comment #114835 by Darwin's badger on January 23, 2008 at 2:11 am

I don't know what the legality is regarding releasing a plague of locusts, but you can buy them for around £10 per hundred from this site.

http://www.livefoodsdirect.co.uk/products.asp?dept=1040
I'm not saying that anyone should do it, or condoning it, but if anyone should decide to go biblical on his ass...

Other Comments by Darwin's badger

34. Comment #114836 by Roger Stanyard on January 23, 2008 at 2:31 am

Welcoming committees for Ken Ham are a very good idea indeed. I'll be putting the matter to BCSE members shortly. With a bit iof luck I can make Oxford; I tried Leicester last time he was there but got stuck in a thirty mile traffic jam which meant I missed it.

My own view of Ham is that he is the Prince of Darkness and bloody dangerous as well. He's running Answers in Genesis as a business and doing damn well at it, sad to say.

Paul Taylor of AiG is also appearing at Skeptics in the Pub in London on 19th February where, touch wood, I'll also be attending. He's as mad as a hatter.

BTW all, I got a plug for BCSE on an international 24 news channel last week. The channel is Press TV and you can watch the programme online at BCSE at http://www.presstv.com/pop/wmp.aspx?id=39562

If that doesn't work go to this URL where you can click into the programme (Nexus):
http://www.presstv.com/prg_detail.aspx?SectionID=3510513

I appear pretty late into it (about 20 minutes, I guess).

Other Comments by Roger Stanyard

35. Comment #114838 by stephenray on January 23, 2008 at 2:35 am

Ken Ham - isn't he that chinese TV chef with the big grin?

Other Comments by stephenray

36. Comment #114839 by Philster61 on January 23, 2008 at 2:39 am

If he is so anti technology why doesnt he move to a cave for the rest of his days like his ancient idols where he can too write his memoirs.The Gospel acccording to Ken.What a "ham" that would be.LOL
Seriously Id love to see King Richard show up to one of Ken Hams meetings and go tete a tete for the world to see.ALthough I suspect if it happened all Hen Ham would do would be to quote the bible as he so annoyingly does

Other Comments by Philster61

37. Comment #114841 by Katherine on January 23, 2008 at 2:55 am

Might see if I can 'pose' as a Christian to get inside this music hall act and get my tuppence worth of debate in there, somewhere........

Other Comments by Katherine

38. Comment #114842 by jeepyjay on January 23, 2008 at 3:00 am

I'm a bit disturbed that most commenters on this thread, apart from Roger Stanyard, seem to underestimate Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis as some sort of joke. He is a total menace.

Comment #114834 by Ilesere:
Jeepyjay - are you intending on picketing this event? If so then I'm close enough to Leicester that I'll join you, and bring my camera so we can provide our own report of events.

I'm undecided about that at present. The reason we picketed his meetings at Leicester University was in protest at the University being used as a forum for anti-science. It looks as if our message brought a result as this year he has moved to an out-of-town private sports centre.

The fact that he can fill a large space like this with supporters shows how strong a grip creationist ideas have in the local evangelical churches.

Other Comments by jeepyjay

39. Comment #114844 by gibodean on January 23, 2008 at 3:11 am

For Londoners, "Skeptics in the pub" next month is having a Creationist speaker, Paul Taylor from "Answers in Genesis".

For those who haven't heard of "Skeptics in the pub", it's held once a month, and the format is a speaker talking on matters of interest to skeptics. Sometimes we have skeptics speaking, sometimes (like this time) we have the opposite..

Always followed by question time.

It's informal, and a good night. With beer. For more info see here:
http://www.skeptic.org.uk/pub/

Other Comments by gibodean

40. Comment #114846 by Philip1978 on January 23, 2008 at 3:12 am

Guys I wouldn't bother going, I remember Billy Sands coming back from one of those meetings with bad feelings, he only speaks and does not answer questions. Billy said he just frothed a bunch of lies and some idiots listened to him, it was not anything exciting.

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

41. Comment #114848 by PJG on January 23, 2008 at 3:17 am

I'm a bit disturbed that most commenters on this thread, apart from Roger Stanyard, seem to underestimate Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis as some sort of joke. He is a total menace.

I certainly don't see creationists as a joke - I am REALLY worried. I put forward the idea of using ridicule as a possible "defence", not because I think these people are funny but because any antagonistic stance or attempt at rationality/logic or scientific evidence is dismissed by those who believe this rubbish and picketing only seems to increase their zeal and reinforces their fear/hatred for the "godless".

I truly am at a loss. It would be interesting to know what RD et al think about all this. Do we have a chance to stop the creationists from getting a hold in Britain the way they have in the US?

Do any of the Americans on this site have any ideas of how they would have dealt with this if they had known, thirty years ago, how dangerous these people are?

Other Comments by PJG

42. Comment #114850 by emmet on January 23, 2008 at 3:42 am

If an interested student society in Leicester (e.g. bio. soc.) invited every university secular society, biology society, etc. in the UK to come along, you could rustle up quite a crowd: I've seen busloads of students travel across the country for much less. Ask a major pharma/biotech company to sponsor the "counter-event". I've seen bizarrely trivial student events sponsored by banks and breweries, why not the "War on Ignorance"?

Other Comments by emmet

43. Comment #114851 by Steve Zara on January 23, 2008 at 3:48 am

I certainly don't see creationists as a joke - I am REALLY worried.

I am not seriously worried yet.

Looking at the venues and organisers:

One is a leisure centre (a fitness club), and the others are in halls used by an evangelical church, and a "Bible Church". Hardly high-profile venues, and unlikely to have substantial attendance.

The one that does concern me is the use of a School Hall in Oxford. It might be worth a letter-writing (or e-mail) campaign to ensure the governers of the school realise what their facilities are being used for.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

44. Comment #114852 by BillySands on January 23, 2008 at 3:50 am

I went to see this moron in Glasgow last year. I was disgusted at his misrepresentation of science and intolerant agenda.
Fortunately not too many turned up and a lot left at the interval.

The tautology such people tend describe is "what survives survives." Well, that is true. But it ignores the issue of why something survives, which is selection.

Indeed, we can also know why some things survive - antibiotic resistence being a good example. We can do experiments to test what makes something survive too.
Typical fundie bullshit

Other Comments by BillySands

45. Comment #114853 by artificialhabitat on January 23, 2008 at 3:55 am

If an interested student society in Leicester(e.g. bio. soc.) invited every university secular society, biology society, etc. in the UK to come along, you could rustle up quite a crowd: I've seen busloads of students travel across the country for much less. Ask a major pharma/biotech company to sponsor the "counter-event". I've seen bizarrely trivial student events sponsored by banks and breweries, why not the "War on Ignorance"?

I was thinking along these lines. I would certainly be inclined to support such an endeavour. I can't speak for others yet, but a contingent of Southampton based atheists might be up for it.

Other Comments by artificialhabitat

46. Comment #114857 by epeeist on January 23, 2008 at 4:05 am

The one in Preston (the nearest to me) seems to be at the Bethel Evangelical church. Looking at the satellite photo on Google maps it appears to be a hut in the middle of an industrial estate.

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47. Comment #114861 by scottishgeologist on January 23, 2008 at 4:14 am

Jeepjay's concerns are valid I think. What needs to be pinned down , if possible, is just how much support does this sort of thing actually have in the UK?

Last years Scottish tour seemed to be targeted at the sort of venues where he woudl be able guarantee a decent turnout (Doing a talk on 6 day creationism in Stornoway isnt exactly likely to fail) It would have been interesting to see exactly the numbers he got in Aberdeen as I reckon it is Scotlands (and possibly the UK's) most secular city.

If he does get big turnouts, is that because there are a lot of YECs in the vicinity, or is it because they have travelled far to get to it?

If the venue is an evangie church, then I would expec him to have a decent number. Not sure about other venues.

A lot will depend on how the various networks of churches promote it. The Scottish tour last year was promoted on lots of para-church sites.

And of course, the question is, even if Ken Ham doesnt get great numbers of attendees, does that mean that creationism is still insignificant? Could be the man himself that puts people off! After all, David "Wee Flea" Robertson said so on this very same site!

So not all evangies are pro-Ham or indeed pro-YEC.

All very complicated and probably quite difficult to get answers to much of this.

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

48. Comment #114865 by TonyA on January 23, 2008 at 4:27 am

Is that the one with the outrageously funny cartoon drawings? I distinctly remember a picture with two castles, one on the side of evil (evolution) and one on the creationist side.

I'm not sure which is funnier.

This one

http://emethhesed.com/pics/misc/2006-06-28-christian-unity-cartoon.jpg

or this one

http://thescroogereport.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/450_ap_creation_070528.jpg

Other Comments by TonyA

49. Comment #114866 by BillySands on January 23, 2008 at 4:34 am

SG
I would estimate about 200 turned up in glasgow, with about 30 leaving at the break.
I was told that he expressed disapointment on his blog that very few people were interested in buying his shit - oops I mean propaganda - nah come to think of it....

There were certainly a few freaks there. About 30% of the attendees vocalised their support of his most intolerant bilge. Hopefully that means most of the rest were not too comfortable with it.

Other Comments by BillySands

50. Comment #114867 by TonyA on January 23, 2008 at 4:34 am

Einstein's ideas about gravity are unfalsifiable "because what falls down, falls down".

You're not going to convince me that gravity is more than just a theory with logic like that!

... seem to underestimate Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis as some sort of joke. He is a total menace.

Perhaps it's important to remember that their ideas should not be taken seriously, even if their evil intentions should be.

Other Comments by TonyA