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Friday, October 20, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Lunging, Flailing, Mispunching

by Terry Eagleton

(Here's another negative review. I think you might enjoy giving this review the sound thrashing it deserves. -Josh, RDF)

Big thanks to Jason Gersh for the link!

Reposted from:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/eagl01_.html

The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins · Bantam, 406 pp, Ł20.00

Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology. Card-carrying rationalists like Dawkins, who is the nearest thing to a professional atheist we have had since Bertrand Russell, are in one sense the least well-equipped to understand what they castigate, since they don't believe there is anything there to be understood, or at least anything worth understanding. This is why they invariably come up with vulgar caricatures of religious faith that would make a first-year theology student wince. The more they detest religion, the more ill-informed their criticisms of it tend to be. If they were asked to pass judgment on phenomenology or the geopolitics of South Asia, they would no doubt bone up on the question as assiduously as they could. When it comes to theology, however, any shoddy old travesty will pass muster. These days, theology is the queen of the sciences in a rather less august sense of the word than in its medieval heyday.

Dawkins on God is rather like those right-wing Cambridge dons who filed eagerly into the Senate House some years ago to non-placet Jacques Derrida for an honorary degree. Very few of them, one suspects, had read more than a few pages of his work, and even that judgment might be excessively charitable. Yet they would doubtless have been horrified to receive an essay on Hume from a student who had not read his Treatise of Human Nature. There are always topics on which otherwise scrupulous minds will cave in with scarcely a struggle to the grossest prejudice. For a lot of academic psychologists, it is Jacques Lacan; for Oxbridge philosophers it is Heidegger; for former citizens of the Soviet bloc it is the writings of Marx; for militant rationalists it is religion.

What, one wonders, are Dawkins's views on the epistemological differences between Aquinas and Duns Scotus? Has he read Eriugena on subjectivity, Rahner on grace or Moltmann on hope? Has he even heard of them? Or does he imagine like a bumptious young barrister that you can defeat the opposition while being complacently ignorant of its toughest case? Dawkins, it appears, has sometimes been told by theologians that he sets up straw men only to bowl them over, a charge he rebuts in this book; but if The God Delusion is anything to go by, they are absolutely right. As far as theology goes, Dawkins has an enormous amount in common with Ian Paisley and American TV evangelists. Both parties agree pretty much on what religion is; it's just that Dawkins rejects it while Oral Roberts and his unctuous tribe grow fat on it.

A molehill of instances out of a mountain of them will have to suffice. Dawkins considers that all faith is blind faith, and that Christian and Muslim children are brought up to believe unquestioningly. Not even the dim-witted clerics who knocked me about at grammar school thought that. For mainstream Christianity, reason, argument and honest doubt have always played an integral role in belief. (Where, given that he invites us at one point to question everything, is Dawkins's own critique of science, objectivity, liberalism, atheism and the like?) Reason, to be sure, doesn't go all the way down for believers, but it doesn't for most sensitive, civilised non-religious types either. Even Richard Dawkins lives more by faith than by reason. We hold many beliefs that have no unimpeachably rational justification, but are nonetheless reasonable to entertain. Only positivists think that 'rational' means 'scientific'. Dawkins rejects the surely reasonable case that science and religion are not in competition on the grounds that this insulates religion from rational inquiry. But this is a mistake: to claim that science and religion pose different questions to the world is not to suggest that if the bones of Jesus were discovered in Palestine, the pope should get himself down to the dole queue as fast as possible. It is rather to claim that while faith, rather like love, must involve factual knowledge, it is not reducible to it. For my claim to love you to be coherent, I must be able to explain what it is about you that justifies it; but my bank manager might agree with my dewy-eyed description of you without being in love with you himself.

Dawkins holds that the existence or non-existence of God is a scientific hypothesis which is open to rational demonstration. Christianity teaches that to claim that there is a God must be reasonable, but that this is not at all the same thing as faith. Believing in God, whatever Dawkins might think, is not like concluding that aliens or the tooth fairy exist. God is not a celestial super-object or divine UFO, about whose existence we must remain agnostic until all the evidence is in. Theologians do not believe that he is either inside or outside the universe, as Dawkins thinks they do. His transcendence and invisibility are part of what he is, which is not the case with the Loch Ness monster. This is not to say that religious people believe in a black hole, because they also consider that God has revealed himself: not, as Dawkins thinks, in the guise of a cosmic manufacturer even smarter than Dawkins himself (the New Testament has next to nothing to say about God as Creator), but for Christians at least, in the form of a reviled and murdered political criminal. The Jews of the so-called Old Testament had faith in God, but this does not mean that after debating the matter at a number of international conferences they decided to endorse the scientific hypothesis that there existed a supreme architect of the universe — even though, as Genesis reveals, they were of this opinion. They had faith in God in the sense that I have faith in you. They may well have been mistaken in their view; but they were not mistaken because their scientific hypothesis was unsound.

Dawkins speaks scoffingly of a personal God, as though it were entirely obvious exactly what this might mean. He seems to imagine God, if not exactly with a white beard, then at least as some kind of chap, however supersized. He asks how this chap can speak to billions of people simultaneously, which is rather like wondering why, if Tony Blair is an octopus, he has only two arms. For Judeo-Christianity, God is not a person in the sense that Al Gore arguably is. Nor is he a principle, an entity, or 'existent': in one sense of that word it would be perfectly coherent for religious types to claim that God does not in fact exist. He is, rather, the condition of possibility of any entity whatsoever, including ourselves. He is the answer to why there is something rather than nothing. God and the universe do not add up to two, any more than my envy and my left foot constitute a pair of objects.

This, not some super-manufacturing, is what is traditionally meant by the claim that God is Creator. He is what sustains all things in being by his love; and this would still be the case even if the universe had no beginning. To say that he brought it into being ex nihilo is not a measure of how very clever he is, but to suggest that he did it out of love rather than need. The world was not the consequence of an inexorable chain of cause and effect. Like a Modernist work of art, there is no necessity about it at all, and God might well have come to regret his handiwork some aeons ago. The Creation is the original acte gratuit. God is an artist who did it for the sheer love or hell of it, not a scientist at work on a magnificently rational design that will impress his research grant body no end.

Because the universe is God's, it shares in his life, which is the life of freedom. This is why it works all by itself, and why science and Richard Dawkins are therefore both possible. The same is true of human beings: God is not an obstacle to our autonomy and enjoyment but, as Aquinas argues, the power that allows us to be ourselves. Like the unconscious, he is closer to us than we are to ourselves. He is the source of our self-determination, not the erasure of it. To be dependent on him, as to be dependent on our friends, is a matter of freedom and fulfilment. Indeed, friendship is the word Aquinas uses to characterise the relation between God and humanity.

Dawkins, who is as obsessed with the mechanics of Creation as his Creationist opponents, understands nothing of these traditional doctrines. Nor does he understand that because God is transcendent of us (which is another way of saying that he did not have to bring us about), he is free of any neurotic need for us and wants simply to be allowed to love us. Dawkins's God, by contrast, is Satanic. Satan ('accuser' in Hebrew) is the misrecognition of God as Big Daddy and punitive judge, and Dawkins's God is precisely such a repulsive superego. This false consciousness is overthrown in the person of Jesus, who reveals the Father as friend and lover rather than judge. Dawkins's Supreme Being is the God of those who seek to avert divine wrath by sacrificing animals, being choosy in their diet and being impeccably well behaved. They cannot accept the scandal that God loves them just as they are, in all their moral shabbiness. This is one reason St Paul remarks that the law is cursed. Dawkins sees Christianity in terms of a narrowly legalistic notion of atonement — of a brutally vindictive God sacrificing his own child in recompense for being offended — and describes the belief as vicious and obnoxious. It's a safe bet that the Archbishop of Canterbury couldn't agree more. It was the imperial Roman state, not God, that murdered Jesus.

Dawkins thinks it odd that Christians don't look eagerly forward to death, given that they will thereby be ushered into paradise. He does not see that Christianity, like most religious faiths, values human life deeply, which is why the martyr differs from the suicide. The suicide abandons life because it has become worthless; the martyr surrenders his or her most precious possession for the ultimate well-being of others. This act of self-giving is generally known as sacrifice, a word that has unjustly accrued all sorts of politically incorrect implications. Jesus, Dawkins speculates, might have desired his own betrayal and death, a case the New Testament writers deliberately seek to rebuff by including the Gethsemane scene, in which Jesus is clearly panicking at the prospect of his impending execution. They also put words into his mouth when he is on the cross to make much the same point. Jesus did not die because he was mad or masochistic, but because the Roman state and its assorted local lackeys and running dogs took fright at his message of love, mercy and justice, as well as at his enormous popularity with the poor, and did away with him to forestall a mass uprising in a highly volatile political situation. Several of Jesus' close comrades were probably Zealots, members of an anti-imperialist underground movement. Judas' surname suggests that he may have been one of them, which makes his treachery rather more intelligible: perhaps he sold out his leader in bitter disenchantment, recognising that he was not, after all, the Messiah. Messiahs are not born in poverty; they do not spurn weapons of destruction; and they tend to ride into the national capital in bullet-proof limousines with police outriders, not on a donkey.

Jesus, who pace Dawkins did indeed 'derive his ethics from the Scriptures' (he was a devout Jew, not the founder of a fancy new set-up), was a joke of a Messiah. He was a carnivalesque parody of a leader who understood, so it would appear, that any regime not founded on solidarity with frailty and failure is bound to collapse under its own hubris. The symbol of that failure was his crucifixion. In this faith, he was true to the source of life he enigmatically called his Father, who in the guise of the Old Testament Yahweh tells the Hebrews that he hates their burnt offerings and that their incense stinks in his nostrils. They will know him for what he is, he reminds them, when they see the hungry being filled with good things and the rich being sent empty away. You are not allowed to make a fetish or graven image of this God, since the only image of him is human flesh and blood. Salvation for Christianity has to do with caring for the sick and welcoming the immigrant, protecting the poor from the violence of the rich. It is not a 'religious' affair at all, and demands no special clothing, ritual behaviour or fussiness about diet. (The Catholic prohibition on meat on Fridays is an unscriptural church regulation.)

Jesus hung out with whores and social outcasts, was remarkably casual about sex, disapproved of the family (the suburban Dawkins is a trifle queasy about this), urged us to be laid-back about property and possessions, warned his followers that they too would die violently, and insisted that the truth kills and divides as well as liberates. He also cursed self-righteous prigs and deeply alarmed the ruling class.

The Christian faith holds that those who are able to look on the crucifixion and live, to accept that the traumatic truth of human history is a tortured body, might just have a chance of new life — but only by virtue of an unimaginable transformation in our currently dire condition. This is known as the resurrection. Those who don't see this dreadful image of a mutilated innocent as the truth of history are likely to be devotees of that bright-eyed superstition known as infinite human progress, for which Dawkins is a full-blooded apologist. Or they might be well-intentioned reformers or social democrats, which from a Christian standpoint simply isn't radical enough.

The central doctrine of Christianity, then, is not that God is a bastard. It is, in the words of the late Dominican theologian Herbert McCabe, that if you don't love you're dead, and if you do, they'll kill you. Here, then, is your pie in the sky and opium of the people. It was, of course, Marx who coined that last phrase; but Marx, who in the same passage describes religion as the 'heart of a heartless world, the soul of soulless conditions', was rather more judicious and dialectical in his judgment on it than the lunging, flailing, mispunching Dawkins.

Now it may well be that all this is no more plausible than the tooth fairy. Most reasoning people these days will see excellent grounds to reject it. But critics of the richest, most enduring form of popular culture in human history have a moral obligation to confront that case at its most persuasive, rather than grabbing themselves a victory on the cheap by savaging it as so much garbage and gobbledygook. The mainstream theology I have just outlined may well not be true; but anyone who holds it is in my view to be respected, whereas Dawkins considers that no religious belief, anytime or anywhere, is worthy of any respect whatsoever. This, one might note, is the opinion of a man deeply averse to dogmatism. Even moderate religious views, he insists, are to be ferociously contested, since they can always lead to fanaticism.

Some currents of the liberalism that Dawkins espouses have nowadays degenerated into a rather nasty brand of neo-liberalism, but in my view this is no reason not to champion liberalism. In some obscure way, Dawkins manages to imply that the Bishop of Oxford is responsible for Osama bin Laden. His polemic would come rather more convincingly from a man who was a little less arrogantly triumphalistic about science (there are a mere one or two gestures in the book to its fallibility), and who could refrain from writing sentences like 'this objection [to a particular scientific view] can be answered by the suggestion . . . that there are many universes,' as though a suggestion constituted a scientific rebuttal. On the horrors that science and technology have wreaked on humanity, he is predictably silent. Yet the Apocalypse is far more likely to be the product of them than the work of religion. Swap you the Inquisition for chemical warfare.

Such is Dawkins's unruffled scientific impartiality that in a book of almost four hundred pages, he can scarcely bring himself to concede that a single human benefit has flowed from religious faith, a view which is as a priori improbable as it is empirically false. The countless millions who have devoted their lives selflessly to the service of others in the name of Christ or Buddha or Allah are wiped from human history — and this by a self-appointed crusader against bigotry. He is like a man who equates socialism with the Gulag. Like the puritan and sex, Dawkins sees God everywhere, even where he is self-evidently absent. He thinks, for example, that the ethno-political conflict in Northern Ireland would evaporate if religion did, which to someone like me, who lives there part of the time, betrays just how little he knows about it. He also thinks rather strangely that the terms Loyalist and Nationalist are 'euphemisms' for Protestant and Catholic, and clearly doesn't know the difference between a Loyalist and a Unionist or a Nationalist and a Republican. He also holds, against a good deal of the available evidence, that Islamic terrorism is inspired by religion rather than politics.

These are not just the views of an enraged atheist. They are the opinions of a readily identifiable kind of English middle-class liberal rationalist. Reading Dawkins, who occasionally writes as though 'Thou still unravish'd bride of quietness' is a mighty funny way to describe a Grecian urn, one can be reasonably certain that he would not be Europe's greatest enthusiast for Foucault, psychoanalysis, agitprop, Dadaism, anarchism or separatist feminism. All of these phenomena, one imagines, would be as distasteful to his brisk, bloodless rationality as the virgin birth. Yet one can of course be an atheist and a fervent fan of them all. His God-hating, then, is by no means simply the view of a scientist admirably cleansed of prejudice. It belongs to a specific cultural context. One would not expect to muster many votes for either anarchism or the virgin birth in North Oxford. (I should point out that I use the term North Oxford in an ideological rather than geographical sense. Dawkins may be relieved to know that I don't actually know where he lives.)

There is a very English brand of common sense that believes mostly in what it can touch, weigh and taste, and The God Delusion springs from, among other places, that particular stable. At its most philistine and provincial, it makes Dick Cheney sound like Thomas Mann. The secular Ten Commandments that Dawkins commends to us, one of which advises us to enjoy our sex lives so long as they don't damage others, are for the most part liberal platitudes. Dawkins quite rightly detests fundamentalists; but as far as I know his anti-religious diatribes have never been matched in his work by a critique of the global capitalism that generates the hatred, anxiety, insecurity and sense of humiliation that breed fundamentalism. Instead, as the obtuse media chatter has it, it's all down to religion.

It thus comes as no surprise that Dawkins turns out to be an old-fashioned Hegelian when it comes to global politics, believing in a zeitgeist (his own term) involving ever increasing progress, with just the occasional 'reversal'. 'The whole wave,' he rhapsodises in the finest Whiggish manner, 'keeps moving.' There are, he generously concedes, 'local and temporary setbacks' like the present US government — as though that regime were an electoral aberration, rather than the harbinger of a drastic transformation of the world order that we will probably have to live with for as long as we can foresee. Dawkins, by contrast, believes, in his Herbert Spencerish way, that 'the progressive trend is unmistakable and it will continue.' So there we are, then: we have it from the mouth of Mr Public Science himself that aside from a few local, temporary hiccups like ecological disasters, famine, ethnic wars and nuclear wastelands, History is perpetually on the up.

Apart from the occasional perfunctory gesture to 'sophisticated' religious believers, Dawkins tends to see religion and fundamentalist religion as one and the same. This is not only grotesquely false; it is also a device to outflank any more reflective kind of faith by implying that it belongs to the coterie and not to the mass. The huge numbers of believers who hold something like the theology I outlined above can thus be conveniently lumped with rednecks who murder abortionists and malign homosexuals. As far as such outrages go, however, The God Delusion does a very fine job indeed. The two most deadly texts on the planet, apart perhaps from Donald Rumsfeld's emails, are the Bible and the Koran; and Dawkins, as one the best of liberals as well as one of the worst, has done a magnificent job over the years of speaking out against that particular strain of psychopathology known as fundamentalism, whether Texan or Taliban. He is right to repudiate the brand of mealy-mouthed liberalism which believes that one has to respect other people's silly or obnoxious ideas just because they are other people's. In its admirably angry way, The God Delusion argues that the status of atheists in the US is nowadays about the same as that of gays fifty years ago. The book is full of vivid vignettes of the sheer horrors of religion, fundamentalist or otherwise. Nearly 50 per cent of Americans believe that a glorious Second Coming is imminent, and some of them are doing their damnedest to bring it about. But Dawkins could have told us all this without being so appallingly bitchy about those of his scientific colleagues who disagree with him, and without being so theologically illiterate. He might also have avoided being the second most frequently mentioned individual in his book — if you count God as an individual.

Terry Eagleton is John Edward Taylor Professor of English Literature at Manchester University. His latest book is How to Read a Poem.

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1. Comment #2275 by Randy Ping on October 20, 2006 at 11:46 am

"Waaaahh, the science guy is MEAN! Waaaaahhh."

2. Comment #2277 by Phil on October 20, 2006 at 11:54 am

I was going to say something snarky, but then I read the last sentence; "His latest book is _How to Read a Poem_.", and figured it's really just not worth it.

3. Comment #2280 by Clive Bradley on October 20, 2006 at 12:05 pm

I don't know about you but when I was at school we were taught relentlessly how to read poems, the meanings of which aren't always obvious. It's not that weird for a professor of literature to write a book about it.

Eagleton might be wrong about Dawkins' book - I wrote a much more favourable review which has also been included on this site - but he is not writing from a religious point of view. I would imagine Eagleton is also an atheist. That's not his objection to the book. I think if people are going to rebut his argument they need to show either that Dawkins does know more than Eagleton claims about theology, or that it's not necessary to know in detail about theology in order to attack it.

Moaning that he's written a book about poetry is pretty low.

4. Comment #2285 by maryhelena on October 20, 2006 at 12:21 pm

This is an absolutely brilliant review of Dawkins book. Sadly, the many atheists on this site might enjoy taking pot-shots at its writer . They would be ill-advised to do so. There is much food for though in this review that atheists should try and digest. Come on atheists - take the blinkers off. Face the reality that religion is never, ever, going to disappear. The task of atheism is not to debunk religion - the task of atheism is to ensure that it’s theology is removed from the social and political environment. Anything else is delusion.

5. Comment #2287 by Clive Bradley on October 20, 2006 at 12:27 pm

I think people are missing the points Eagleton is making.

Dawkins' book does criticise various actual theological positions. It seems to me reasonable to object if his knowledge of the positions he is attacking is superficial. I'm not (and nor is Eagleton) talking about the Bible, but about a body of thought over 2,000 years.

Obviously the main purpose of Dawkins' book is not to be a critique of theology, but to present a basic argument, and I think it does so well. But it is surely true that if part of the reason for writing the book is to persuade 'believers', the case is not helped if those believers see him only attacking weak versions of their argument.

6. Comment #2290 by Greywizard on October 20, 2006 at 12:33 pm

Let me have first go.

Perhaps Professor Eagleton should have read a book entitled "How to Read a Book."

This is perhaps the most ferocious review of any book that I have ever read. I don't think that's an exaggeration. How much justice is there in Eagleton's asessment of Dawkins' book?

Well, one thing is clear. If you are prepared to read a lot of contemporary theology, you will find exactly the kind of peculiar gobbledegook that seems to be the bass signature of this review. For instance, the idea that perfect freedom is to be had from service of God. Like so: "To be dependent on him, as to be dependent on our friends, is a matter of freedom and fulfilment." The question of course is to what does 'him' refer? Remember, Dawkins' book is entitled "The God Delusion." Is there a transcendent him to which the word 'God' refers? (Why, I wonder, except to avoid the Whiggish Zeitgeist, does Eagleton avoid less gendered way of talking about God?)

I was just reading Richard Rubenstein's "After Auschwitz." In fact, I had just read this, when I read Eagleton's review: "Tillich claims the theistic God is dead and deserved to die because He opposes human freedom." (87) It is really disingenuous of Eagleton to pretend that this kind of thing has not been discussed amongst Christian theologians, as though all this about 'the service of God is perfect freedom' is not simply so much theological fluff -- good enough for the pulpit perhaps, but not for a serious discussion about the being of God (or gods).

Eagleton thinks that he is describing traditional Christian doctrines. Surely this is simply false. Take what he says about the doctrine of the atonement, one of the most seriously off-putting aspects of traditional Christian doctrine. But traditional Christians took Isaiah seriously, and interpreted the death of Jesus as in fact God's act for the sake of his people. And much Christian theology of the atonement has endeavoured, not entirely successfully, to avoid the inhuman connotations which Dawkins, quite rightly, takes very seriously. It may have been the Romans who killed Jesus -- though Christians traditionally blamed the Jews, and, in the gospels, try very hard to exculpate Pilate -- but it was really God who was bringing about, through the death of Jesus, the salvation of mankind. So, the claim that "It was the imperial Roman state, not God, that murdered Jesus," is prevarication. Besides, Eagleton still hasn't answered the question: Who is God?

Eagleton says (in a peculiarly Soviet style terminology) that "the Roman state and its assorted local lackeys and running dogs took fright at his message of love, mercy and justice." There is absolutely no evidence for this, though good homiletic stuff.

Maybe I'll come back to this, but that's enough to start with. Really, Eagleton's theological illiteracy is a bit astounding, given his pretensions.

7. Comment #2294 by maryhelena on October 20, 2006 at 12:38 pm

Brian

Didn't you notice that the writer said:

"The mainstream theology I have just outlined may well not be true; but anyone who holds it is in my view to be respected, whereas Dawkins considers that no religious belief, anytime or anywhere, is worthy of any respect whatsoever. This, one might note, is the opinion of a man deeply averse to dogmatism. Even moderate religious views, he insists, are to be ferociously contested, since they can always lead to fanaticism."

The writer is not debating the truth or error of any of the theological points he raised. He is simply asserting the right of individuals to hold them. Something that, hopefully, atheists would likewise want to be seen to be doing.

8. Comment #2306 by maryhelena on October 20, 2006 at 1:41 pm

"But it is surely true that if part of the reason for writing the book is to persuade 'believers', the case is not helped if those believers see him only attacking weak versions of their argument."


Clive
I think you have hit the nail on the head here. Dawkins has left himself open to the sort of critique that Eagleton has made. And no amount of lambasting Eagleton for his style is going to distract from that fact.

9. Comment #2314 by Yorker on October 20, 2006 at 2:36 pm

Ref. #2287 and in general.

"the case is not helped if those believers see him only attacking weak versions of their argument"

Is there a strong version of their argument?

They don't have an argument, at best, they have an idea, an idea with nothing to substantiate it. This is the real world here, the only world we know. All sane people base their lives upon evidence, evidence is the key to all sensible legal systems. Believers have no evidence whatever for their claims, no matter how much you try to clothe an unsubstantiated claim in pseudo-intellectual balderdash and poppycock, the lack of any evidence will *always* be its downfall.

Any simple argument backed-up by evidence will eternally hold sway amongst honest and sensible persons whose capacity for rational thought is unimpaired by years of indoctrination. It amazes me that people who demonstrate a thin veneer of intelligence continue to attempt a defence of the indefensible, why do they waste their time? They don't seem to realize that they've lost before they pen the first word! Its as if they can't resist making fools of themselves to appease the wrath of their "sky daddy".

Maryhelena says religion will never go away, I think she's wrong; it has a fatal flaw that will *ensure* its eventual demise. If there is one thing we know about this world, the fact that it's a dynamic system is beyond doubt. Change is inevitable and inescapable, things change or die and therein lies the nemesis of religion. Its inventors didn't have the foresight to make it dynamic to match an ever-changing world. The tale is old and static, its too late to change it now, they'd have to rewrite their guide book which of course would make it even more of a nonsense than it is presently.

Eventually, more and more people will see it for what it really is and it will take on the status of any other fairy tale. Let's get real, it's only been around for a few thousand years - nothing, in the universal time scale, the merest blink of an eye. The sane amongst us just have to try to ensure that the static-thinking crazies are held at bay in the meantime. But no question, religion will sooner or later suffer a well-deserved extinction - death by sane human selection.

10. Comment #2319 by Yorker on October 20, 2006 at 2:47 pm

I think you may have the nub of it it there, Topmum!

11. Comment #2322 by Greywizard on October 20, 2006 at 2:58 pm

I have read most of the responses above to Eagleton's review. I think we need to take Eagleton seriously. Dismissing him out of hand won't qualify as reasoned discussion.

I think we need to take seriously Clive Bradley's point when he says: "I would imagine Eagleton is also an atheist. That's not his objection to the book. I think if people are going to rebut his argument they need to show either that Dawkins does know more than Eagleton claims about theology, or that it's not necessary to know in detail about theology in order to attack it." Just saying so doesn't make it so, and it is one of the premises of Dawkin's book that theology is, in fact, not a knowledge discipline at all, because there is nothing for it to be about.

And that is precisely the point at which Eagleton needs to be challenged. He can't, for example, make a kind of blanket claim that we all live by faith as though theological ideas don't make special epistemological claims. "Even Richard Dawkins," he says, "lives more by faith than by reason." Does he want to claim that theological claims are all of piece with scientific beliefs or the beliefs of natural reason (that we live in a world of other persons, animals and physical objects)? Obviously, to prove anything we start with a basic set of minimum beliefs. Of course, members of that set may themselves be objects of proof against other background beliefs. Is this what Eagleton means by the word 'faith'? He just can't fling the word around without justifying his use to cover everything from belief in the existence of mosquitoes to the existence of a god.

Of course, no one is denying that there are sophisticated ways of understanding religious beliefs. Even the atonement (in Christianity) can be given meanings which try to keep it insulated from (say) Abraham's (attempted) sacrifice of his son. The trouble is that this is one of the fundamental ways in which the Christian atonement is represented. After all, as John says, "God so loved the world that he gave his only son ..." This language is reflected in Hebrews in speaking of Abraham, who by faith offered up his only son. And so on. Indeed, Anselm, in "Cur Deus Homo," makes it clear that Jesus, as God's son, is the only sacrifice that will satisfy God's honour. Etc. etc.

But perhaps Eagleton's most egregious claims have to do with the idea of God's existence. Now, here's the key sentence. Speaking of the Jews' or Christians' faith in God, he says: "They had faith in God in the sense that I have faith in you." And he has just said that they do not suppose that God is something which exists, as might a supreme architect of the universe, but ... And then the claim about faith in God in the same way that we have faith in other people. But, surely, at least as a minimum, having faith in someone includes belief that that someone exists, is someONE, in other words. But then he goes on to say: "For Judeo-Christianity, God is not a person in the sense that Al Gore arguably is." Now, surely, if faith in God is the same as faith in other people, then this is precisely the sense in which God must be a person, or doesn't consistency weigh with Eagleton at all?

But when he says, speaking of God: "He is, rather [than an existent entity or principle], the condition of possibility of any entity whatsoever, including ourselves. He is the answer to why there is something rather than nothing," isn't this something like Einstein's God -- not the theistic god of traditional Christianity, Judaism or Islam, but something much more like Dawkins desribes in the first chapter, as the religion of the scientist? "This, not some super-manufacturing," says Eagleton, "is what is traditionally meant by the claim that God is Creator." I'm not so sure. I think that, traditionally, Christians had something much more descriptive in mind when they spoke of God as creator.

My point, though, in the end, is that we can respond to Eagleton, point by point, if need be, as to why his argument just won't wash, and why his condemnation of Dawkins, just because Dawkins is not willing to delve into all the subtleties of Christian or Jewish theology, is so terribly inadequate. Indeed, Eagleton rather makes Dawkins' point, that liberal theology simply leaves the back door open, and all sorts of wierdos and fundamentalist 'faith-heads' (to use Dawkins' term) will simply walk through and trample on all those intricate and beautifully woven carpets -- because both the subtle and intricate theology that Eagleton respects and admires, and the literalistic nonsense of the fundamentalist faith-heads have the same source in writings centuries old. And, at the moment, it's the fundamentalist 'faith-heads' who seem to be calling the tune.

12. Comment #2323 by Yorker on October 20, 2006 at 3:01 pm

Theology is like excrement: you don't need to understand it to dump it!

13. Comment #2327 by Clive Bradley on October 20, 2006 at 3:20 pm

I have to admit I'm a bit - can't think of the word (shocked?) - by some of the comments here. There is a lot of ad hominem abuse of Eagleton: he writes books about poetry (and other things, by the way); nobody's heard of him (actually he's an extemely well-known literary and cultural theorist in the UK); he's a post-modernist (he is a sharp critic of post-modernism); he writes badly (well, I've read worse).

I thought The God Delusion hit the contemporary spot, and I don't agree with Eagleton's criticisms, for the most part.

But I do think there are a few important questions Dawkins either doesn't address or addresses inadequately, some of which Eagleton mentions.

1. Religious faith has played a positive as well as a negative role in human history, and religious people have not always been a force for evil.

2. Non-religious people, and science and technology, have sometimes been a force for evil.

3. Dawkins tends to regard religion as a bewildering intellectual choice. He doesn't attempt to understand the social conditions which lead people to look to God, or priests (this is Eagleton's reference to Marx and 'the heart of a heartless world'), which is surely relevant to any discussion of fundamentalism. *Why* do people have funny ideas?

4. Some of Dawkins' defences of science - Eagleton mentions the 'multiple universe' solution to problems related to the anthropic principle - are not completely convincing.

To repeat, I am basically with Dawkins - with science, against religion. But Eagleton has raised some legitimate criticisms.

14. Comment #2331 by Greywizard on October 20, 2006 at 3:33 pm

Just a comment to Yorker.

If we want to appeal to people who are deeply indoctrinated in religious beliefs, calling theology excrement is not the way to do it. Despite Eagleton, the truth is that Dawkins shows considerable respect for religion, and is even, I think, slightly nostalgic about the moderate religion of his childhood. In the TV series "The Root of all Evil?", it was clear, in his interview with Richard Harries, Bishop of Oxford, that Dawkins had the greatest respect for Harries' humanity. (He even refers to him in the book as a friend, I believe.) And if all religion were of this rather humane, moderately Anglican, variety, Dawkins wouldn't have much of an argument with it, though he would still, no doubt, in the interests of truth, raise some pointed metaphysical questions. But it is the dangerous aspects of religion which need to be challenged, and to do that, all religion needs to be asked for its bona fides. Dawkins' clarity of mind and argument are what is needed. When Dawkins objects to the 'respect' that people instinctively give to religion and religious ideas, he's not advising being insulting, as such, but being forthright about one's own beliefs. One of the things that you can say about Dawkins is that he is unfailingly respectful of people, but quite prepared to criticise, and if need be, condemn their beliefs. But 'excrement' simply doesn't help, somehow.

15. Comment #2332 by Jason on October 20, 2006 at 3:36 pm

Too long; didn't read. Well... I read some of it before I got too bored. It includes some great demonstration of the utter nonsense that is 'theology'.

"Nor is [God] a principle, an entity, or ‘existent’: in one sense of that word it would be perfectly coherent for religious types to claim that God does not in fact exist."
So God does NOT exist? Okay fine, agreed!

"He is, rather [-snip]"
Stop right there. If he does not exist, as you've admitted, then he is not anything. Nothing more than a fictional character, anyway.

"He is the answer to why there is something rather than nothing."
Like hell he is! That riddle has no answer. It is not a valid problem that needs any answer. The fact is: that there *is* something. 'Nothing' is not an alternative to something. 'Nothing' has no reality in of itself, it is a relational concept that only makes sense in reference to things that *do* exist. To say that there is nothing in a room is not to say there is some phenomena of 'nothingness' occuring there, it is to say that it is *not* the case that there are things in the room.

16. Comment #2334 by Clive Bradley on October 20, 2006 at 3:48 pm

This is from a completely lay point of view (I'm not even remotely a physicist):

The problem is that the various qualities of the universe are exactly as they need to be in order for stars, planets, and life (and so, us) to exist. Recalibrate any of it and the universe turns to soup. Right?

If you imagine an infinite number of universes, the weirdness of this vanishes, because it's just that we happen to be in the one where those quantities are what they are.

But if, in order to address a pretty large weirdness about the nature of the universe, you have to postulate an infinite number of unobserved things - I'm not sure that's much more convincing than saying the solution is God.

Dawkins suggests the other answer, too - which is kind of, well, yeah, but that's just how it is. Maybe it is. But you can see why someone predisposed to the idea of a prime mover might think you hadn't crushed them.

17. Comment #2337 by Greywizard on October 20, 2006 at 3:54 pm

Thanks to Clive Bradley for keeping the discussion on track.

Of course, there are issues that need to be raised with regard to Dawkins' arguments. He is not a god! While I don't have a problem with the idea of multiple universes -- this is a widely assumed theoretical standpoint in cosmology -- there are certainly questions that we need to raise with Dawkins.

One of them, as Clive points out, is Dawkins' neglect of the positive aspects of religious faith. Dawkins objects, for instance, to the fact that many Christian organizations, as well as helping out, try to convert, but Christians have been building hospitals and bringing relief to the needy for a long long time, and we shouldn't be so small as to ignore that. (There was a time, for instance, when over 80% of the nurses in India were Christian.)

And, as Clive also points out, we need to remember that people have a reason to resort to faith solutions to their problems. Lewis Wolpert, in his book "Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast," begins his book by remarking on the way that a fundamentalist religious sect had helped his son get his life in order. It's one thing to knock the supports out from beneath religious beliefs; it's quite another thing to fill the void that religious faith quite clearly fills for many people.

John Schumaker, in his book about the role that religion plays in life, suggests, referring to Ernest Becker's "Denial of Death" that "without much-needed defense mechanisms in place, untemptered death perception would bring about total psychic paralysis." (22) This is, Schumaker believes, the basic reason that religion is so tenacious, despite all our scientific knowledge and understanding of the world. Perhaps, at the core, we are still defenseless animals, facing the void. Well, maybe, but whether or not we accept Schumaker's theory of religion, we do need to give an account of religion which accounts for the hold that it has over so many.

So, thanks, Clive, for keeping the questions alive. We can't simply dismiss Eagleton by saying that he's wrong. We need to be able to say why. We also need to rememeber that Dawkins is attempting to give reasons for disbelief, and, as Eagleton rightly says, challenges us to think (that is THINK) for ourselves. Dawkins gives the appearance of being so sure of himself that the temptation is to defend him without thinking.

18. Comment #2338 by Greywizard on October 20, 2006 at 3:55 pm

Thanks to Clive Bradley for keeping the discussion on track.

Of course, there are issues that need to be raised with regard to Dawkins' arguments. He is not a god! While I don't have a problem with the idea of multiple universes -- this is a widely assumed theoretical standpoint in cosmology -- there are certainly questions that we need to raise with Dawkins.

One of them, as Clive points out, is Dawkins' neglect of the positive aspects of religious faith. Dawkins objects, for instance, to the fact that many Christian organizations, as well as helping out, try to convert, but Christians have been building hospitals and bringing relief to the needy for a long long time, and we shouldn't be so small as to ignore that. (There was a time, for instance, when over 80% of the nurses in India were Christian.)

And, as Clive also points out, we need to remember that people have a reason to resort to faith solutions to their problems. Lewis Wolpert, in his book "Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast," begins his book by remarking on the way that a fundamentalist religious sect had helped his son get his life in order. It's one thing to knock the supports out from beneath religious beliefs; it's quite another thing to fill the void that religious faith quite clearly fills for many people.

John Schumaker, in his book about the role that religion plays in life, suggests, referring to Ernest Becker's "Denial of Death" that "without much-needed defense mechanisms in place, untemptered death perception would bring about total psychic paralysis." (22) This is, Schumaker believes, the basic reason that religion is so tenacious, despite all our scientific knowledge and understanding of the world. Perhaps, at the core, we are still defenseless animals, facing the void. Well, maybe, but whether or not we accept Schumaker's theory of religion, we do need to give an account of religion which accounts for the hold that it has over so many.

So, thanks, Clive, for keeping the questions alive. We can't simply dismiss Eagleton by saying that he's wrong. We need to be able to say why. We also need to rememeber that Dawkins is attempting to give reasons for disbelief, and, as Eagleton rightly says, challenges us to think (that is THINK) for ourselves. Dawkins gives the appearance of being so sure of himself that the temptation is to defend him without thinking.

19. Comment #2341 by Clive Bradley on October 20, 2006 at 4:23 pm

Greywizard

Thanks. And this is an interesting thread.

On multiple universes - I know it's an accepted hypothesis in cosmology. But I've read (scientific) criticisms of it. And in any case, it is surely in the spirit of questioning which Dawkins says religion discourages to wonder if an infinite number of unobserved universes are much of an answer to anything... That scientists think they might exist isn't far off an appeal to sacred texts.

I wonder - I throw this out as a question - if this debate (here on this thread) is informed by me being on the other side of the Atlantic, I think, to most of you. According to Dawkins, anyway, atheists are much more of a beleaguered minority in the US than we are in the UK. Things are changing here - as the book outlines. But it's not reached the level it is in the US. I think. So for me there are interesting 'blind spots' in Dawkins' argument; overstatements; simplifications. Whereas, in the US, you see forthright atheist argument is a - if you will - Godsend.

Or am I talking bollocks?

20. Comment #2344 by Greywizard on October 20, 2006 at 4:54 pm

Clive,

I'm not sure where I come down on multiple universes. I'm not a scientist, but I think there are probably scientific reasons for postulating multiple universes. If they are just to fill a gap, they function much like God (of the gaps).

I'm not sure whether you're talking bollocks about the difference between the way Dawkins is received in Britain or in America. I'm in Canada, and, truth to tell, atheism isn't a rarity here, and religion has a much harder ride. (By the way, what gave it away -- that I was on this side of the Atlantic rather than yours?)

Nor, let me add, am I altogether blind to Dawkins' overstatement or simplification. A philosopher by training, and for many years a priest, I find Dawkins sometimes glosses over things that need a bit more attention. But I do find him refreshing, mainly because religion is becoming such a monstrous force for evil in the world today. Perhaps it always was, but I think it is arguably more dangerous now, as Sam Harris says, that we have such terrible destructive power, than it ever was before. The other thing is, of course, that religion is becoming much more of a regressive force than it was during the latter half of the last century.

A good place to look, for those who would like to follow up on some of the questions about the anthropic principle and its function in relation to questions of human origin that don't include a god, is Dan Dennett's "Darwin's Dangerous Idea," Chapter 7: Priming Darwin's Pump.

21. Comment #2346 by Greywizard on October 20, 2006 at 5:23 pm

Thanks Mike,

The point you make about the simplicity of origins is important, and, though of course I had noticed it as I read along, did not really store it away. (That's obvious, since I didn't mention it in my response to Clive.) It's as clear as can be in the case of evolution, and one doesn't stop to think twice about it anymore. But in relation to the origin of the universe, it still hadn't sunk in. Of course you're right: "Postulating a complex cause for simpler effects leads one nowhere." As I recall, J.L Mackie uses the same argument in "The Miracle of Theism." If someone remembers where, I'd be grateful. Complex origins always lead to regresses of explanation, and Richard Swinburne's assumption, for example, that God is simple is, quite simply, a non-starter.

22. Comment #2347 by Yorker on October 20, 2006 at 5:28 pm

Just a reply to Greywizard

A joke Greywizard, a joke, perhaps in somewhat dubious taste I'll admit, but vulgarity has its occasional uses. I've watched "Root of All Evil?" a few times and I have to say I don't see Richard showing much respect for religion.

Perhaps you, if like me, had suffered at the hands of religious fanatics you would take a slightly different view, indeed, you give me the impression that perhaps a fondness for religion still lurks within yourself.

Additionally, I find your tone mildly insulting, I don't need to be told how Dawkins behaves, I can see that for myself! If you didn't like my joke, that's all you had to say. If you had the desire to wax further in philosphical vein, perhaps another post would've been the best option.

23. Comment #2348 by melior on October 20, 2006 at 5:33 pm

Isn't it great how, if you read carefully all the way to the end of tantrum like this, you always get a little hint what was really getting the author's panties in a twist?

Dawkins could have told us all this without being so appallingly bitchy about those of his scientific colleagues who disagree with him...

Aha! I thought so.

24. Comment #2349 by Simmons on October 20, 2006 at 5:42 pm

The God Delusion was written for the general public, not for trumped up philosophers.

25. Comment #2351 by Yorker on October 20, 2006 at 5:58 pm

Just a reply to Greywizard.

A joke, you know, humour. In somewhat dubious taste I’ll admit, but vulgarity has its occasional uses. If a statistical analysis of “Root of All Evil?” was conducted, I’d guess that the outcome would be that Richard was disrespectful to religion about 90% of the time, so I don’t think what I said was entirely out of order. Perhaps if you, like me, had suffered at the hands of religious fanatics, you would also harden your softly, softly approach.

Additionally, I find your tone mildly insulting, I don’t need a lecture on how Dawkins behaves; I can see that for myself! If you didn’t like my joke, one line would have sufficed. If the need to wax further in philosophical vein was irresistible to you (it seems clear it was) then perhaps a new post would have been a better option, instead of addressing the whole thing to me as if I’d disagreed with something you may have said earlier.

When I disagree with something you say, I’ll let you know; then you can attack me if you want.

26. Comment #2360 by Robert on October 20, 2006 at 9:17 pm

The book is called The God Delusion, not The Inane Theology Delusion. Although, now that I think about it, that sounds like it would be a real howler. And where are these large numbers of people who accept the theological outlook this guy is jabbering on about? I know a lot of Christians, and I'm sure most of them would find this review just as incoherent as I do. "He is, rather, the condition of possibility of any entity whatsoever, including ourselves." Is that supposed to be some kind of joke. Have I been punked? Dawkins paints a very ugly picture of religion, but he has nothing on this guy.

27. Comment #2362 by Russ on October 20, 2006 at 9:47 pm

maryhelena said "Come on atheists - take the blinkers off."

The blinkin' blinkers are off, already. After thousands of years the blinkers are off. Those blinkers shackled to minds of men by and for religions, those exact blinkers are off. With blinkers off, more and more people realize that, for all they have taken from men down the ages, religions have made little contribution to the betterment of mankind. With blinkers off, more and more people realize that despite having Mr. Omnipotent in their corner, religions were almost completely ignorant of the natural world - including humanity. With blinkers off, more and more people realize that religions have been perpetuated by the social expectation that parents will proudly take infants from the cradle and bathe them in sacred ignorance.

Religion, with its insanely stupid inferences based on the god hypothesis, had it's shot and it failed miserably. For century upon century the church, with its loving, omnipotent god calling all the shots, failed to improve the cause of humanity at all. If god were even somewhat loving and even half as smart as a modern fourth-grade schoolchild, he could have saved millions by putting verses like the following in his scripture.
Book of Hygiene:
1:1 Wash your hands after going potty.
1:2 Wash your hands before cooking.
2:5 Don't walk around barefoot in pigshit.

Book of Safe Food Preparation:
2:4 Sure, it's OK to eat pork, just cook it well first.

Book of How to be a Human Being:
1:4 Slavery is wrong, always, forever, under all circumstances, period, no if's, and's or but's.
4:9 Humans come in a variety of shapes, sizes and colors.
4:10 If a being looks like you, except for shape, size or color - even if that being acts different from you, it's a human being, just like you.
6:13 All humans are related and should treat each other with compassion.

But the allegedly loving, smart god could not offer this advice because god's creators did not know it. Thus, the ignorance of god's creators became the ignorance that is god.

And who was it that suffered through this failed multi-millennial experiment in relying on the omnipotent? People. Good people, kind people, caring and compassionate people. People wanting a better life for their children. People sincerely curious about man's place in the cosmos. People with their curiosity securely blinkered by religion. People killed by ignorance - an especially pernicious breed of ignorance unwilling and unable to learn from its glaringly obvious failures. Ubiquitous social and institutional ignorance. Ignorance in the form of bloodletting. Ignorance as Inquisitional torture. Ignorance as exorcisms. Ignorance as dungeons and prisons. Ignorance as a tool of power and oppression. Ignorance as unnecessary then as it is now. Ignorance - indeed those same blinkers - used to sustain absolute control over the minds of men.

Who were those religiously dehumanized people? Many were my ancestors, indeed the ancestors of a great many of us. If each of us could peruse the last 2000 years of our own family history, many of us would discover kin burned at the stake or otherwise tortured. Many would be children. Many would find that their own existence hinged on a last second evasion of The Inquisitor by a wily direct ancestor. Many of them lived short almost unbearable lives simply because the church chose to have it that way. We, too, can choose. We can choose to withdraw support for those same traditional purveyors of inhuman cruelty and ignorance - the churches.

28. Comment #2364 by Galactic Lord Xenu on October 20, 2006 at 10:14 pm

The reviewer is seriously a critic of post-modernism? He sure writes like one--incoherent steam-of-thought babbling, bouncing to-and-fro from criticisms to irrelevent political references, pretentious name-dropping (Foucalt? Check. Derrida? Check. References to psychoanalyis? Check.), convulated jargon and poorly-phrased wording, etc. I have to say that this type of rant is typical of the gutters of lit-crit...

His argument isn't much better. He says Dawkins makes various straw-man errors and doesn't attack the strongest arguments; he fails to mention what, exactly, they are. He makes frequent straw-man attacks himself (I do not need to outline them as most of them have already been outlined by others).

Essentially his criticism of Dawkins' book seems to be of some sort of mystic view of religion and theology, some sort of transcedental nonsense that seems to boil down to "religion is beyond analyzing like mere scientific facts". Am I wrong in this? I really have trouble reading Nonsense, Pretension, and Obscurantism, which is apparently the language of the review's author.

29. Comment #2367 by Simmons on October 20, 2006 at 11:13 pm

I hate to be a nitpicker, but people are using the word "blinkers" incorrectly. Blinkers are usually defined as automotive signalling lights. The word that maryhelena was meaning to use is "blinders".

30. Comment #2371 by maryhelena on October 20, 2006 at 11:57 pm

I hate to be a nitpicker, but people are using the word "blinkers" incorrectly. Blinkers are usually defined as automotive signalling lights. The word that maryhelena was meaning to use is "blinders".

Simmons

No problem - I don't always come up with the right word. But I think, in this case, 'blinkers' hit the spot!


1. blinders. A pair of leather flaps attached to a horse's bridle to curtail side vision. Also called blinkers. (Microsoft Bookshelf).

Atheists wearing blinkers - well, from some of the comments I've just read this morning, it sure looks like it! There is always the great danger, that once one thinks one has seen the 'light', that one can so easily become blind to any little dark spot that the 'light' cannot reach. Can't have 'light' without 'darkness'. It is how we accomodate the 'light' and the 'dark' sides of our human experience that matters - attempting to undertake a winner take all war between them is unrealistic.

31. Comment #2372 by Clive Bradley on October 20, 2006 at 11:58 pm

Thanks to all for responses. (Not sure what gave away the North America in your case, Greywizard. Think it's just a general sense from the site).

As a matter of interest, I have come across a completely different account of the organisation of the universe - provided by the late Nobel Prize winning plasma physicist Johannes Alfven. He argued - I am not remotely competent to judge it - that the basic (simple) workings of plasma gases can explain everything without reference to the Big Bang, multiple universes (actually that might be anachronistic: he died in the late 1980s I think), etc.

Not sure I understand the 'universe as pure maths' idea. But there is an argument, isn't there, that given the circumstances in whch our minds have evolved - ie for life on earth, not out in the cosmos - we might be simply unable to 'do the math' for out in the cosmos, or the maths are less pure, more determined by the workings of our earthly minds, than we think. I suppose you can never know the answer to that.

And to Mad Hatter's point by point rebuttal of Eagleton. I agree with a lot. I'll comment on just one of your points.

The evil consequences of science and technology are controllable. Hopefully! But recent reports suggest we might be too late in terms of environmental destruction; the threats posed (among other things) by the melting of the ice caps to the Gulf Stream, its consequences for climate change - etc - these are 'evil' (though not deliberate) consequences, which we need to sort out urgently. Is global warming a greater threat to the world than fundamentalism? Obviously, on one level it's a stupid question: they're both bad. But I think Eagleton's point, which to me stands, is that Dawkins doesn't address it.

32. Comment #2375 by maryhelena on October 21, 2006 at 12:40 am

What critique? He has taken a very narrow cross-section of the book, made a few points about the scarcity of Richard's theological knowledge, and then for the remainder of the review he has hypocritically indulged in the straw-man attacks of which he accuses Dawkins, and generally written a load of incomprehensible garbage that has scant relevance to the actual points made in TGD.

Mike Torr

OK - feel free to change the word 'critique' to review. Although:

critique (krî-tęk´) noun
1. A critical review or commentary, especially one dealing with works of art or literature.
2. A critical discussion of a specified topic.
3. The art of criticism.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from InfoSoft International, Inc. All rights reserved.

33. Comment #2377 by maryhelena on October 21, 2006 at 1:34 am

What we have to do, though, is criticize these idiotic ideas as harshly as possible. Thats how we as humans progress.

If these ideas and attitudes were simply on the periphery of society, and had no political impact, then who would care? No one is attacking the views of Thor or Odin worshipers, or criticising the latest tome on the "Comparative Physiology of Norwegian Dragons". It is precisley because the fervent faith in these myths has real world implications, that we need to be pretty ruthless in knocking them down whereever they show up in the public discourse.


Brian

Agreed. Chase theological ideas out of the public arena. However, to do that one has to know theology, one has to know who the enemy is. Dawkins needs a crash course in theology. He appears not to know the intrinsic nature of what he seeks to deal with. Hence is in danger of mounting an ineffectual attack. Theology is not simply fundamentalist claptrap .There is ‘good’ there besides the evil. There is also, for want of a better word, sophistication. There are twists and turns that allow theology to be very insidious. Consequently, a frontal attack - which is really what The God Delusion is attempting to do - could only ever achieve the equivalent of shaking down a few leaves from the theological tree, or maybe to be charitable, a small branch or two. The trunk of that theological tree, not to mention it’s roots, remains entrenched. Dawkins wants to remove theology from the social/political environment. That is a very big task. If he is going to be the man to do this - then he is going to have to get his hands well and truly, theologically, dirty. Theology, in the social/political context, is not the sitting target it is in fundamentalism.

34. Comment #2382 by maryhelena on October 21, 2006 at 3:08 am

Theology is not simply fundamentalist claptrap .There is ‘good’ there besides the evil.

OK. I do have a blind spot, and you've narrowed it down sufficiently for me to see it clearly. I just don't see how any discussion about the nature of god is at all valuable.

Brian

But that is just the point - the idea, the concept, the word, may be meaningless to you. But to millions of other humans the term 'god' does have meaning. We can debate until the cows come home what this concept means - and no, contrary to Dawkins, the term is not the preogative of a theistic god. The term 'god' will continue to be used as, even if only as a symbol, of what each individual finds to be meaningful, reverential,inspiring or 'magical' when he/she contemplates the world around them.

Lets not confuse the issue here. Individually, we can believe in whatever takes our fancy. That is the nature of our intellect. It allows us to make-believe as well as to engage in logic. Sure, we can debate with each other the pros and cons of our individual make-believe. But if someone wants to place value upon his make-believe, is someone finds meaning in it - then we need to take a step back. We need to realize that ideas, in themselves, are not dangerous. (i.e. as a gun is not what kills but the man who pulls the trigger).

We can only, rationally, step in when an individual decides that his make-believe needs to have some sort of social/political expression.

35. Comment #2383 by maryhelena on October 21, 2006 at 3:29 am

maryhelena said "Come on atheists - take the blinkers off."

The blinkin' blinkers are off, already. After thousands of years the blinkers are off. Those blinkers shackled to minds of men by and for religions, those exact blinkers are off.

Russ

Methinks not. For if those blinkers were off then one would not be reading the type of comments that were posted on Eagleton's review of The God Delusion.

Religion is not the root of all evil. That is not only simplistic thinking, it is nonsense.

"Evil is not simply an absence of good, it is an absence of balance with good, and becomes manifest by such disequilibrium in a human being. The only real danger perhaps is already in us, not lurking in some infernal pit. There is little merit in searching for evil in witches, devils, demons or other scapegoats. We are it. In the Words of the cartoonist Walt Kelly's Pogo: "We have met the enemy, and he is us".

(Lyall Watson: Dark Nature).

36. Comment #2392 by non_plussed on October 21, 2006 at 4:43 am

maryhelena wrote: "Agreed. Chase theological ideas out of the public arena. However, to do that one has to know theology, one has to know who the enemy is. .... There is also, for want of a better word, sophistication."

I don’t see any sophistication in the theology on display here, just sophistry – extra grease added to make the nonsense harder to grab hold of. It seems a waste of effort to attempt to argue against it on its own terms, as those terms have been deliberately chosen to permit the ‘sophisticated’ believer to keep hold of belief despite seeing the flaws in the theology of the great unwashed.

Deconstructing someone’s methodology for calculating the precise number of angels that fit on a pinhead is only worth doing once they’ve demonstrated that angels exist. In a similar manner, scientists don’t need to research the mechanism of how homeopathy transfers energy patterns onto water molecules until someone demonstrates that there is a repeatable effect to homeopathy that is worth studying.

If there is something to the theology then this should be detectable by viewing the results: is there any usable, practical deliverable coming out the other end? I’m sure that the Vatican has its full compliment of such thinking and yet to the outside observer this organisation behaves like any other human self-serving organisation. By their fruits ye shall know them – as someone once said.


As others have mentioned, the number of people with such a delicately whipped soufflé of a faith construction is vanishingly small. If the general public were required to expound on the “epistemological differences between Aquinas and Duns Scotus” then religion would end today.

One of my peeves about the religion industry is their hypocrisy in developing an implausibly nuanced theology for themselves and leaving their customers with an unrelated Janet and John version. “Whatever works” seems to be the motto; the simple message is an easier sell and a catchier concept – who cares if they don’t believe it themselves so long as it puts bums on pews.

I got through an entire catholic education without anyone mentioning that Genesis was a metaphor. If simple fairy stories do the trick then why complicate matters? Unless you place any value on intellectual honesty, of course.


Eagleton would have us believe that theologians are to religion what biologists are to biology. This might be the case if biologists were writing popular science books promoting the stork theory of human reproduction in order to get their funding and then wheeled out a theory of genetics if anyone questioned the stork. They would also have to have no evidence for DNA or any practical application for it either, of course. Something tells me the analogy is a weak one.

37. Comment #2393 by G. Tingey on October 21, 2006 at 4:43 am

Here are some errors ....

"Faith" is DEFINED as belief without evidence.
So how can he put up faith as a defence in a reasoned argument?

Dawkins is NOT obsessed with creation.
If only because he is saying there wasn't one.
We DO have evolution, but that is emphatically, NOT creation.

Eagleton is obviously not capable of coherent, long-term rational thought....

Etc ...

38. Comment #2397 by maryhelena on October 21, 2006 at 5:19 am

We can't let people like Bush get away with claiming he speaks for god. It is a delusion at best, and a lie at worst, but it's a lie that works. We need to expose the whole sham, top to bottom for what it is.

Brian

That's it - it's the politicans atheists should be aiming at i.e. it's the translation of theology into political idealogy (of whatever stripe) that needs exposing - and dismantling.It is theology combined with political power that is so devestating today - not the make-believe that takes grannies to church on sundays.

There is a huge gap between fundamentalists and theologians - as there is a huge gap between fundamentalists and the 'normal' christian. Dawkins is not doing his cause - and the cause of atheism - any good by lumping them all together. There is a very big jump between 'fundamentalism is wrong' to 'all forms of religion are wrong'. Dawkins, from what I have read, and listened to, on this site, has not offered any rational argument that would allow for such a limited concept of 'religion'. And until he does we should not blindly make that jump ourselves.

One of the beauties of science is to dissect things, to see things in the most minute detail, to see not only their connection but to see also their differentiation. That is the sort of scientific approach Dawkins needs to bring to his dealing with 'religion'.

39. Comment #2398 by Greywizard on October 21, 2006 at 5:45 am

Yorker, Sorry to have (mildly) offended you. Didn't mean to offend, just to make a point in response to the point you made. Truth to tell, of course, a lot of theology is bullshit, but there is bullshit and then there is bullshit.

As I read along through the posts, Hume's words kept coming back to me. At the end of "An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding" he says this, and clearly Dawkins would agree.

"When we run over the libraries, persuaded of these principles, what havoc must we make? If we take in our hand any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact or existence? No. Commit it then to the flames: for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion."

Of course, we do not want to begin burning books, for of the burning of books we have an inkling of what may follow. Eagleton obviously feels there is still some substance left in theology, that there is a sophistication that goes beyond the simplistic theism of the fundamentalists, and that this can make a contribution to life. He may not share in the beliefs himself as Clive suggested, but he is loath to dismiss it out of hand without a hearing.

The epistemological question is this: Is there a simple and direct way of separating reasoned statements from non-reasoned or irrational ones? So far epistemology hasn't come up with a clear dividing line between the two. If we could discern the boundary and describe it, the things that Eagleton complains of could be dismissed as readily as Hume dismisses all but reasoning concerning quantity and empirical reasoning. Eagleton's point (I suspect, though it is concealed under a lot of questionable verbiage) is that unless and until we have defined the boundary conditions clearly, merely sweeping everything one disagrees with into the fire really doesn't answer all the questions that people have asked and tried to answer about religion. Certainly, Hume didn't, since by his own standards much of his Enquiry would have to be committed to the flames, being neither experimental nor mathematical. What about Dawkins?

40. Comment #2400 by maryhelena on October 21, 2006 at 5:48 am

One of my peeves about the religion industry is their hypocrisy in developing an implausibly nuanced theology for themselves and leaving their customers with an unrelated Janet and John version. “Whatever works” seems to be the motto; the simple message is an easier sell and a catchier concept – who cares if they don’t believe it themselves so long as it puts bums on pews.

non_plussed

And money on the plate....

I am with you here. There is this huge gap between, as you call it, the 'Janet and John' version of theology, and the refined version of the theologians. Perhaps The God Delusion could end up doing the theologians job for them??

Seriously though, this sort of intellectual divide, between the laity and the church intellectuals, is a phenomenon not just in christianity. Ancient religions had their inner and their outer mysteries. The literal and the spiritual 'truth'.

We can of course blame the theologians for allowing this gap to become so wide. At the same time, each individual has the responsibility to think for themselves. And today, when knowledge of every type is freely available, there really is no excuse for not making the effort.

But the other side of the coin - if some people are happy just where they are - that's that!

41. Comment #2405 by maryhelena on October 21, 2006 at 6:39 am

Wow - well said. Three cheers for rational though - and thank you.


92. Comment #2403 by johnc on October 21, 2006 at 6:27 am

I consider myself both an atheist and pro-science, but like Clive on the previous page I am deeply concerned by both the tone and content of much of this thread. Many contributors seem to either have never heard of Eagleton or to have no idea about his intellectual position - and this of someone The Guardian described as "Britain's best-known academic rebel and literary critic". He cannot be simply dismissed in the puerile way that many have attempted here. Doubly so, since some of his points surely strike home. Most telling, to my mind, are the observations that (1) Dawkins is a political naif whose views on global complexities are very much rooted in a pinched Oxbridge "liberalism", and (2) the conclusions "would come rather more convincingly from a man who was a little less arrogantly triumphalistic about science".

The problem here, more so for the uncritical cheer squad that seems to have sprung up in this thread than Dawkins himself, is something that Steve Gould was increasingly concerned about in his final years (see for instance The Hedgehog, the Fox, and the Magister's Pox, 2003) - namely the growing divide between science and the humanities.

There is after all no doubt where Eagleton stands on the important issues:
As far as such outrages go, however, The God Delusion does a very fine job indeed. The two most deadly texts on the planet, apart perhaps from Donald Rumsfeld’s emails, are the Bible and the Koran ...

and he is an important and formibable intellectual. So dismissing him as "obviously not capable of coherent, long-term rational thought" is not just silly but a declaration of the joys of righteous isolation and dogmatism.

42. Comment #2426 by Diplo on October 21, 2006 at 8:28 am

The idea that you have to be an expert in Theology before you can criticise religion is as ridiculous as stating you have to have a PhD in Faerology before you can debunk fairies and pixies.

43. Comment #2431 by William on October 21, 2006 at 8:40 am

I agree Zendel!

Many above, have already highlighted the mumbo-jumbo of the above review.

Indeed, Eagleton is an intelligent man. I'd not argue with his prose and writings. But therein lies the problem. Most people want straight-forward, rational and EASILY UNDERSTANDABLE Layman terminology. I think he ISN'T an Atheist - from this review, one gets the distinct impression that an intelligent Theist is trying to hide his belief through imaginative grammar.

To Say 'GOD DID IT', is WAY TOO EASY I'm afraid. I used to be Christian - whatever that means - and I found it, sadly, lacking.

Since becomning Atheist, I feel I'm on the right track. To ask. To Question. To not accept blind faith - for it surely is blind faith. Whatever other Theists say on here, even Eagleton himself, they all would have to agree that THERE IS NO RATIONAL PROOF OF A SUPEREME BEING.

I'll take my chances with Professor Dawkins. The rabble above hasn't convinced me one iota that there is a God. And despite the intelligent manner of the above attack, no Theist has EVER given me a direct answer to the ultimate question:

WHO THE HELL CREATED YOUR GOD/ CREATOR/ FAIRY/ SANTA CLAUS/ IMAGINARY FRIEND/ SKYDADDY...? etc., etc.,

Kind Regards, William.

44. Comment #2444 by maryhelena on October 21, 2006 at 9:23 am

Given that the religious impulse in humans has been so consistently abused both in the past, and even now as we speak, we are surely honour bound to ridicule people who claim to speak to or for their imaginary friends?

Brian

I'm really dumbstruck by this comment. You cannot seriously think that ridiculing someone for their religious beliefs is the way to 'win friends and influence' people!!

We are honor bound to treat our fellow man with dignity. We might not like his make-belief, we can simply state that. Giving our reasons for so doing, or not, as the situation requires.

Anything else is out of line.

Here is an interesting quote. A quote that has much relevence to the sort of athesitic dogmatism that has been evident on this tread.

"......a turning away not just from the burning of heretics, but from the hatred of heretics, the despising and disregarding of heretics; it is not just the terrible punishments of the Inquisition but the spirit of the Inquisition which made such cruelty possible.....which...must be set aside......The road to 'pure doctrine' cannot be driven over corpses". (Hans Kung).

I've been an atheist for many years. However, this is the first online interaction that I have had with atheists - and goodness me, where do I find myself - in some sort of atheist kindergarden.............

45. Comment #2445 by Jacinto on October 21, 2006 at 9:31 am

It seems to me that Eagleton’s mainstream Christian Theology is a plaything of a few and has little to do with the religion of ordinary Christians. And he seems to think that only those initiated into that plaything can have an informed opinion on God and religion. Does it not follow then that most Christians ought to become agnostics?

46. Comment #2451 by Ophelia Benson on October 21, 2006 at 10:00 am

I did a couple of posts on this at Butterflies and Wheels last week -

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/notesarchive.php?id=1613

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/notesarchive.php?id=1614

It's an irritating review. I particularly disliked his saying "For mainstream Christianity, reason, argument and honest doubt have always played an integral role in belief" and then promptly making a lot of flat evidence-free assertions like "God is an artist who did it for the sheer love or hell of it, not a scientist at work on a magnificently rational design". Where's the honest doubt in that? How does he know that? What's his evidence for it? And if he has no real way to know it and has no evidence for it, in what sense does reason play "an integral role" in his belief?

47. Comment #2458 by island on October 21, 2006 at 10:48 am

It's okay to use a multiverse as an equally unproven but more plausibile explanation against creationism, but it's not okay to use it against implications of the anthropic physics that we're not here by accident, because these characteristics are only known to be inherent to the observed universe.

Quit assuming that non-accidental occurrence necessitates an intelligent designer and your argument will be much stronger, Richard, because the "intent" that you perceive to be indicitive of design cannot be construed as such without direct proof, because you have to distinguish human-like "intent" from any other form of **natural bias** or the extra entity is not justified.

The complete denial of this real scientific possibility just makes you look like an ideologically motivated antifanatic... er... MORE like an antifanatic, I mean... ;)

48. Comment #2463 by Randy Ping on October 21, 2006 at 11:11 am

Look, you either believe in talking snakes or you don't. It truely is THAT simple. For those who say "Well, as a m