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Monday, February 11, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Why multiculturalism must be abandoned

by Johann Hari

Reposted from:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-rowan-williams-has-shown-us-one-thing-ndash-why-multiculturalism-must-be-abandoned-780710.html

The Archbishop has unwittingly pointed us towards a vision of a better Britain

For five days now, the Archbishop of Canterbury has been chorusing: how do you solve a problem like Sharia? Ever since he suggested it is "unavoidable" – and desirable – for Britain to have Islamic courts ruling on Muslim family affairs, bashing the bishop has become a national sport. But this row shouldn't be just about the pitiful contortions of the head of a dying Church. Rowan Williams has shown us why the doctrine of multiculturalism needs to abandoned.

If you really believe that Britain is comprised of a smorgasbord of "cultures" that need to be preserved, promoted and respected as an end in itself, then this proposal is perfectly logical. Different cultures should have different courts, and rules, and schools.

We don't need to speculate about what these British sharia courts would look like. They already exist in some mosques across Britain, as voluntary enterprises. Last month, a plain, unsensationalist documentary called Divorce: Sharia Style looked at the judgements they hand down.

If a man wants a divorce, he simply has to say to his wife, "I divorce you" three times over three months. The wife has no right of appeal, and no right to ask for a reason. If a woman wants a divorce, by contrast, she has to humbly ask her husband. If he refuses, she must turn to a sharia court, and convince three Mullahs that her husband has behaved "unreasonably" – according to the rules laid out in a pre-modern text that recommends domestic violence if your wife gets uppity.

Irum Shazad, a 26-year-old British woman, travels from her battered women's refuge to a sharia court in East London. She explains that her husband was so abusive she slashed her wrists with a carving knife. The court tells her this was a sin, making her as bad as him. They tell her to go back to her husband. (They grant a divorce half a year later, after a dozen more "last chances" for him to abuse her.)

Then we meet Nasirin Iqbal, a 27-year-old Pakistani woman who was shipped to Britain five years ago to marry. Her husband, Imran, has kept her isolated, and she does not speak a word of English. "I came here thinking he'd treat me well," she says. "But he keeps hurting me. He brought me here to use me. I'm not an object.... Do I not have a heart?... He tells me I'm stuck with him, and under Islam he can treat me however he wants. 'I am a man, I can treat you how I want'."

We see how Imran torments her, announcing, "You are a reject. I didn't want to marry you." He takes a second wife in Pakistan, and texts her all day in front of Nasirin declaring his love. The sharia court issues a fatwa saying the marriage stands. She doesn't seem to know this isn't a court of law. "I can't ignore what they say," she cries. "You have to go with what they say."

These are the courts that Rowan Williams would give the stamp of British law. In his lecture, he worries that this could harm women – before serving up a theological gloop, saying that sharia could be reinterpreted in a way compatible with the rights of women. But if that happens, why would you need different courts? What would be the point?

The argument that women will only have to enter these courts if they freely choose to shows a near-total disconnection from the reality of Muslim women's lives. Most of the women who will be drawn into "consenting" are, like Nasirin, recent immigrants with little idea of their legal options. Then there are the threats of excommunication – or violence – from some families. As the Muslim feminist Irshad Manji puts it: "When it comes to contemporary sharia, choice is theory; intimidation is the reality."

These courts highlight in their purest form the problem with multiculturalism. It has become a feel-good doctrine mindlessly celebrating "difference", without looking at what that difference actually means.

Yet many people feel instinctively uncomfortable when we talk about ditching multiculturalism – for a good reason. The only alternative they are aware of is the old whiter-than-white monoculturalism. This view, voiced most clearly by Enoch Powell and Norman Tebbit, believes that if people are going to live together, they need to look and feel similar, and have a tightly prescribed shared identity. They argue that the number of newcomers should be small, and need to be pressured to assimilate to the 1950s norm of a suburban white family, fast.

Multiculturalism was formed with good intentions as a counter-reaction. But it has become a mirror-image of this old racism, treating Muslim women – and others – as so different that they do not deserve the same rights as the rest of us. As the European-Iranian feminist Azar Majedi puts it: "By creating different laws and judicial systems for each ethnic group, we are not fighting racism. In fact, we are institutionalising it."

When people talk about defending Muslim culture, ask them – which culture? The culture of Irum and Nasireen, or the culture of their abusive husbands? Multiculturalism patronisingly treats immigrants as homogenous blocks – when in fact they are as diffuse and dissenting as the rest of us. Would anybody lump me in with Richard Littlejohn and Nick Griffin as part of a "white community"?

There is a better way for the state to understand and regulate human differences, beyond the old oppositions of Tebbittry and multiculturalism. It is called liberalism. A liberal society allows an individual to do whatever he or she wants, provided it doesn't harm other people. You can choose to wear PVC hotpants or a veil. You can choose to spend all day praying, or all day mocking people who pray.

Where a multiculturalist prizes the rights of religious groups, a liberal favours the rights of the individual. So if you want to preach that the Archangel Gabriel revealed the word of God to an illiterate nomad two millennia ago, you can do it as much as you like. You can write books and hold rallies and make your case. What you cannot do is argue that since this angel supposedly said women are worth half of a man when it comes to inheritance, and that gay people should be killed, you can ditch the rules of liberalism and act on it.

The job of a liberal state is not to stamp The True National Essence on its citizens, nor to promote "difference" for its own sake. It is to uphold the equal rights of every individual – whether they are white men or Muslim women. It has one liberal culture, with freedoms used differently by different people.

So as well as scorning the Archbishop, we should thank him. He has helped to deliver the funeral rites for multiculturalism. With his matted beard and tortured hand-wringing to a desert-God, the Archbishop has unwittingly pointed us towards a vision of a better Britain – one that chooses proudly to be liberal.

j.hari@independent.co.uk

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1. Comment #125121 by eoinc on February 11, 2008 at 2:10 am

Haven't yet got past the first sentence, but just had to praise its wonderful wordplay:

"How do you solve a problem like Sharia?"

Why didn't I ever think of that?

Other Comments by eoinc

2. Comment #125127 by Steve Zara on February 11, 2008 at 2:24 am

 avatarThe young Hari talks a lot of sense, presenting his arguments with clarity and useful information.

I have moaned somewhat about the recent Condell video on this subject, posted on this site. I feel strongly that this is the way to do things: Hari has it right.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

3. Comment #125133 by BaronOchs on February 11, 2008 at 2:32 am

 avatarWe've heard this before remember? Trevor Philips said multiculturalism encouraged divisions in society and then people criticised him for "playing into the hands of the right".

Still good article.

Other Comments by BaronOchs

4. Comment #125135 by Henri Bergson on February 11, 2008 at 2:37 am

 avatarI was actually at the Archbishop's lecture in the Royal Courts of Justice. What he is accused of is an exaggeration of what he said, to be fair.

However, I am glad for the harsh response because ultimately and implicitly he is suggesting that we should accommodate muslim values rather than they accommodating ours fully.

But Hari's proposed solution here makes me laugh. Multiculturalism is a part of Liberalism which cannot be simply taken away. Multiculturalism is the ultimate ideology of global capitalism as it hinders the formation of national economies (thus limiting the global market of multinationals), as is Liberalism generally (just look at its origins).

The solution is simple: outlaw any non-state court or law, and stop non-EU low-skill (i.e. thick) immigrants from entering the continent. The latter has just been instigated by Britain at last. Also ban the teaching of religion as truth (as in Sweden).

Rowan Williams may have a PhD, but it's in theology and thus easily acquired.

In the lecture he said that a muslim board must decide which sharia laws are cultural as opposed to those which are religious, as if there's a difference! As if there is a 'true' Islam as opposed to a culturally-created one. Fool.

He also tried to water down the punishment in Sharia of Apostasy (conversion from a religion). He likened it to treason where a person rejects the community and actively goes against it. As if an apostate is like a traitor... However, even Britain doesn't stone traitors to death.

I think he may resign as the effect of his words in parts of Africa may be fatal to Anglicans there battling with sharia courts on a daily basis.

The effect may be a replaced stronger, stricter Archbishop, which, also, is not desirable for atheists (or is it?)....

Other Comments by Henri Bergson

5. Comment #125144 by tieInterceptor on February 11, 2008 at 2:52 am

 avatarthis article is really good, he* makes a lot of sense.

(*fixed)

to anyone who hasn't seen the Uk divorce: sharia stile documentary mentioned in this article, it's totally worth it.

http://uk.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=97CD3BD1948BE551

This World: Inside a Shari'ah Court a female muslim uk reporter in nigeria's sharia courts. Interesting.

http://uk.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=A07C626899D1E6D4

Dispatches: Undercover Mosque Very good one, and the Imam that appears on Divorce sharia stile is one of the radical ones portrayed. He looks ok'ish as a sharia judge, then he talks vitriol on the pulpit on the mosque, who would have known?

http://uk.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=B61DDD1701F98467

Unreported World: Egypt's Rubbish People This one is quite sad. I'veen to Cairo and never knew this existed.

http://uk.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=880679FBF7239D0B

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

6. Comment #125145 by Peacebeuponme on February 11, 2008 at 2:54 am

The young Hari talks a lot of sense, presenting his arguments with clarity and useful information.

I have moaned somewhat about the recent Condell video on this subject, posted on this site. I feel strongly that this is the way to do things: Hari has it right.
Excellent point. Hari's columns in the Independent are always a pleasure to read. Condell makes me cringe more often than not.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

7. Comment #125148 by BaronOchs on February 11, 2008 at 2:56 am

 avatar
this article is really good, she makes a lot of sense.


He might have manboobs but he isn't a she.

Other Comments by BaronOchs

8. Comment #125157 by davem on February 11, 2008 at 3:14 am

This article needs to be sent to the Archbishop...

Other Comments by davem

9. Comment #125160 by AllanW on February 11, 2008 at 3:17 am

 avatarI like this article; clear, factual, well-argued and points in the right direction.

Whether Williams stays or goes is a toss-up; he has 'pissed on his chips' as we say oop north and will never again be treated with any respect by much of the population.

Two things;

I hope this emboldens the second and third generation Muslim population to take control of their communities: the absence of integrated, westernized Muslims in positions of influence should finally have made them realise that they must clean the stables or be faced with more regrettable and unjust victimization by racists in this country.

And secondly I hope that the main secular lobbies really co-ordinate and press for change on the back of this. Blasphemy laws repealed, Hate laws immasculated, faith schools and academies opened to all or forcibly changed. I think disestablishment is maybe too far away but you never know.

Other Comments by AllanW

10. Comment #125162 by gcdavis on February 11, 2008 at 3:18 am

 avatarI first wrote this a year ago and have taken a lot of stick here and at other forums for opposing the concept of multiculturalism as practised here in the UK. I thought it worth repeating. I have been misrepresented as a racist usually by lefties for having the temerity of saying that immigrants should be expected to “sign up” to the core values of the host nation even at the expense of their own cultural origins.

If you want to live in the UK your entry ticket should be to share our values and learn our language (quickly), your colour, class, skills are not the issue. At the heart of the problem is of course religion, a moslem immigrant from Pakistan is less likely to assimilate than a Sikh from India because of the greater subjugation that islam demands. Even Poles bring with them a much stronger, more active and devout version of catholicism than our local version.

As a secularist I am alarmed at the creeping expansion of religion into education and government. Although I see no prospect at all of the UK following America’s path, we must fight to keep religious influence at bay and seek always to reign it back.

Multiculturalism’s bed fellow is political correctness and timidity amongst politicians. I long for one of them to stand up and assert their Britishness, this should not be confused with nationalism or mistaken for xenophobia. And before someone says “what is Britishness” it suffices to say that it is a broad “church” and not a narrow monoculturalism, in common with most developed societies it allows for wide range of behaviour and practice, if your are a Brit and don’t know what it is, then open your eyes and ears, it is all around you.

Other Comments by gcdavis

11. Comment #125179 by JemyM on February 11, 2008 at 3:32 am

 avatarMulticulture builds on the same mistake as nationalism, the belief that culture can be defined and that there is an authority that can do so.

Other Comments by JemyM

12. Comment #125180 by Corylus on February 11, 2008 at 3:32 am

 avatarGood article, completely correct that Rowan William's speech has had the effect of getting people talking about the issues and learning more about precisely what Sharia can and does prevail.

The hideous punishments everyone knows about, but now there has also been a highlighting of the gender disparities in matters such as matrimonial and inheritance law. Sharia cannot be used as some form of arbitration or 'alternative conflict resolution' (in civil rather than criminal matters) in that so much of it is at variance with British and European law. There will now be much more suspicion shown when it is hawked as such.

However, so sorry for lowering the tone, but this phrase had me crying with laughter
...bashing the bishop has become a national sport.
I can only pressure that Mr Hari is innocently unaware of the colloquial use of this term.

Other Comments by Corylus

13. Comment #125188 by Ian Bamlett on February 11, 2008 at 3:50 am

 avatar
the Archbishop of Canterbury has been chorusing: how do you solve a problem like Sharia?


Alright everybody with me...

(Think, 'sound of music', Julie Andrews and the start of the movie)

"how do you solve - a problem like Shareeeahhh?"

La la la lahhh la lahh la lah la lahhhhhh...

Other Comments by Ian Bamlett

14. Comment #125190 by Geoff on February 11, 2008 at 3:51 am

 avatar

I can only pressure that Mr Hari is innocently unaware of the colloquial use of this term.


I think he sneaked it in (perhaps past his editor?) quite knowingly, judging by some of his other great one-liners.

Excellent article.

gcdavis #10: I for one, agree completely with your points, I said something similar in the comments to the original article.

Other Comments by Geoff

15. Comment #125217 by oisha on February 11, 2008 at 4:36 am

 avatarI, like Steve, have also moaned a bit about the Condell video and was surprised to find myself agreeing with much more of this article than I anticipated given its controversial title.

Nevertheless, I think that what we've got here is another of those "what should we call ourselves?" debates.

In an ideal world the word "multiculturalist", like "atheist" would indeed be redundant. Nevertheless, I still call myself a multiculturalist, and I do so in the sense that I champion liberalness (not in the slavish and bent-over-backwards sense that Rowan Williams is committed to cultural diversity for diversity's sake). It seems to me that this would be the case for the majority of multiculturalists I know, and that this multiculturalism gone crazy that every now and then rears its head is a minority position. In Australia, John Howard famously co-opted the term "mushy multiculturalism" which, while suitably applied to the likes of Rowan Williams, has been used by the political Right to mischaracterise and discredit more sobre multiculturalists in precisely the same way that theists have mischaracterised atheists as nihilists.

Of course, in a society that was everywhere struck through with a spirit of "liberalness", there would be no need to speak of multiculturalists at all, but I continue to refer to myself as one in order to distinguish myself from the monoculturalists and assimilationists who are still so numerous. I do so in the same spirit that I refer to myself as an atheist. I am hopeful that there will indeed be a time when it is unnecessary to do so, but I do not feel that the time for this is now. For reasons that I spoke of in the Condell post, I am less than convinced that the age of assimilation is dead and buried in Australia and for me the word multiculturalism still retains enormous utility.

In Australia I find that this is particularly and almost inescapably the case, because the big-L "Liberals" are actually the country's largest socially conservative party and the party most frequently associated with monoculturalist tendencies. This is so much the case that little-l liberals must necessarily refer to themselves by alternative vocabulary.

Other Comments by oisha

16. Comment #125224 by Heretic on February 11, 2008 at 5:10 am

 avatarThis is what I've been saying for ages (well, to friends and family at least).

To be against mulitculturism (a phrase that always makes me shudder) is NOT being racist.

Race is a non-issue here - but cultures are man made and (just like religions) have no need to be respected without good reason. If a particular culture is morraly wrong, why should we tolerate it in the name of multiculturism?

Other Comments by Heretic

17. Comment #125230 by Steve Zara on February 11, 2008 at 5:18 am

 avatar
Race is a non-issue here


Well, not entirely. The problem is when people use the issue of culture for racist ends. This is something we have to watch out for.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

18. Comment #125231 by Tyler Durden on February 11, 2008 at 5:18 am

 avatarComment #125188 by Ian Bamlett:
"how do you solve - a problem like Shareeeahhh?"
Actually, I was singing "I've just met a law named Sharia" from West Side Story :)

I'll get me coat!

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

19. Comment #125242 by nickthelight on February 11, 2008 at 5:42 am

 avatarDown with the liberal wimps. We need to stop bending over backwards to entertain peoples ideals. Take it or leave it; we are all equal before the law.
The Christian faith has been slowly eroded from common law; homosexuality as sin for example - why? because of the shifting moral zeitgeist in which the Islamic faith is not in step with. Sharia law is simply not in tune with the modern world. It is un-civilized 6th century nonsense and deserves no respect or promotion.

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20. Comment #125243 by Ian Bamlett on February 11, 2008 at 5:43 am

 avatarComment #125231 by Tyler Durden:

Actually, I was singing "I've just met a law named Sharia" from West Side Story :)


Oh, that's a good un! I didn't think of that.

Other Comments by Ian Bamlett

21. Comment #125244 by Steve Zara on February 11, 2008 at 5:46 am

 avatar
Down with the liberal wimps. We need to stop bending over backwards to entertain peoples ideals. Take it or leave it; we are all equal before the law.


The difficulty with that is that people have different ideas of what "equal before the law" means.

I remember hearing the following argument against gay rights : "Gay men have the same rights as 'normal' men - they can marry women too."

There are no simple answers here; just important questions that have to be asked.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

22. Comment #125249 by SilentSkeptic on February 11, 2008 at 6:10 am

 avatarFunny thing is (or perhaps not so funny), while everyone's busy discussing the Archbishop's statement the government goes and does this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/03/nbenefit103.xml

Other Comments by SilentSkeptic

23. Comment #125265 by Chris Bell on February 11, 2008 at 6:40 am

A proposal for a new law:

Section 1) It is confusing to the public when non-governmental organizations call themselves "courts". Participants in these courts often do not recognize that the "judgments" of these "courts" are not legally binding. Often, the participants do not seek further legal help from the government because they think their issue has already been settled. THEREFORE, any non-governmental organization calling itself a "court" will be fined 1,000 pounds upon the first violation, and will be closed upon the second violation.

Section 2) Any "court" which reads the following statement aloud to the participants before conducting its business shall be exempted from Section 1.

"This is not a court with legal authority. You may choose to obey the ruling of this court, but you are not required to. If you are not satisfied with the result here, you may be able to find help in the Courts of England."

Other Comments by Chris Bell

24. Comment #125267 by HughCaldwell on February 11, 2008 at 6:46 am

The Archbishop of Canterbury made a tremendous blunder. He mentioned the word 'Sharia'. Pavlovian responses immediately overwhelm all rational debate. Johann Hari heard the trigger as 'multiculturalism' and the result was the same inability to understand the naive but subtle arguments of the Archbishop, The Beth Din (Jewish courts) seek to propagate and enforce senseless rules. There is nothing like senseless rules for promoting group solidarity. Yet, in the spirit of democracy, tolerance and lack of dogmatism, we should welcome this cultural diversity, where it does not, as the Archbishop would agree,go against human rights

Other Comments by HughCaldwell

25. Comment #125270 by gcdavis on February 11, 2008 at 6:58 am

 avatarThe one good thing to come out of all this is the extent to which secular voices have been heard, across the media, politics, blogs and letters pages there has been near unanimous condemnation of archbishop’s comments along with an appreciation that this special pleading is demanded by all faith groups, not just islam.
Hugh Caldwell I’m not sure about Pavlovian, there is a difference between a Pavlovian response that has been conditioned by repetition and a spontaneous response to the obvious threat associated with sharia. I understand where you are coming from though, if Williams had been talking about integrating hindu customs into our law it would have passed with far less comment.

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26. Comment #125278 by HughCaldwell on February 11, 2008 at 7:13 am

"if Williams had been talking about integrating hindu customs into our law it would have passed with far less comment. "

And his comment about respect for the Beth Din passed with no comment at all. As I said, the Archbishop should never have mentioned 'Sharia' since the media have conditioned a Pavlovian response to the word.

Other Comments by HughCaldwell

27. Comment #125281 by Quetzalcoatl on February 11, 2008 at 7:19 am

 avatarHugh Caldwell-

Yet, in the spirit of democracy, tolerance and lack of dogmatism, we should welcome this cultural diversity


I disagree. I don't see it as unreasonable to expect that those who come to this country should be expected to abide by its laws, and not expect that their own be enforced in the interests of "tolerance". I cannot see something similar happening in Muslim countries.

You mention the Beth Din, but there is a substantial difference between them and Sharia courts. Beth Din courts defer to English law in almost everything, would Sharia courts do the same?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

28. Comment #125284 by Incredulous on February 11, 2008 at 7:29 am

For the first time in a long time, someone has begun a sensitive and yet honest conversation about multiculturalism.

It has become a feel-good doctrine mindlessly celebrating "difference", without looking at what that difference actually means.


The writer goes on to describe a process I have always associated with the more emphatic and vocal proponents of the multicultural society:

"By creating different laws and judicial systems for each ethnic group, we are not fighting racism. In fact, we are institutionalising it."


Whether this is a hysterical statement is open to debate, but nothing in my mind has contributed to the kind of ghettoisation of many parts of Britain, especially inner city Britain, than the nonsensical belief that you are celebrating difference by continually accentuating racial, religious and cultural differences.

I probably mistakenly treat everyone has an individual and give them an opportunity to tell me who they are; how does this help us create the liberal, and dareIsayit, secular society which seems to spring naturally from this welcome critique.

Other Comments by Incredulous

29. Comment #125289 by HughCaldwell on February 11, 2008 at 7:41 am

Beth Din courts defer to English law in almost everything, would Sharia courts do the same? 27. Comment #125281 by Quetzalcoatl on February 11, 2008 at 7:19 am

I cited Beth Din as examples of cultural diversity, as the article by Johann Hari conspicuously does not.

Other Comments by HughCaldwell

30. Comment #125290 by HughCaldwell on February 11, 2008 at 7:44 am

'"By creating different laws and judicial systems for each ethnic group, we are not fighting racism. In fact, we are institutionalising it." 28. Comment #125284 by Incredulous on February 11, 2008 at 7:29 am '

What, exactly, is wrong with allowing Jewish culture to flourish in Britain?

Other Comments by HughCaldwell

31. Comment #125297 by Quetzalcoatl on February 11, 2008 at 7:56 am

 avatarThere is nothing wrong with allowing Jewish culture to flourish, just as there is nothing wrong with allowing Muslim culture to flourish. But all must be subject to the overall law of the land, not their own.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

32. Comment #125300 by oisha on February 11, 2008 at 8:00 am

 avatar"Well, not entirely. The problem is when people use the issue of culture for racist ends. This is something we have to watch out for."

Steve seems to be stealing the words right out of my mouth tonight. I did not mean to suggest as my earlier comments may imply that ALL critics of multiculturalism are racist, but I would suggest that racism is nevertheless alive and well and that MANY critics of multiculturalism ARE racist. Anybody who thinks otherwise would have to be living in a dreamworld, or at least, not the Australia that I'm living in.

Whereas the indicator of "race" may previously have been blood or complexion or eye colour, the new signpost for the "other" has become different cultural traditions. Many racists and xenophobes irrationally view their own culture as instrinsically superior simply because it is their own, the one that they were born into - and not for any of the more Enlightened or rational reasons which most readers here would canvas: universal human rights, for example. The more aesthetically different a culture may be the more inferior these racists will consider it, even if it is the more aesthetically similar culture which is a much greater affront to human decency.

Ask a handful of non-tertiary educated Australians how they would define Australian culture, for example, and I daresay a good number of them would resort to the tired cliches of Vegemite, cricket, Weet Bix, Waltzing Matilda and so on before they'd even think to mention freedom of speech, or democracy, or the rule of law. In their mind, it is the former group rather than the latter which is under threat from multiculturalism and they will reflexively defend it at all costs. Quite simply, they have got their priorities around the worng way. They are anti-liberal and cling so desperately to their own aesthetic preferences that they disparage other cultural aesthetics and see no place in society for legitimate alternatives. They are thus hostile to anyone who would even attempt to import such alternatives, however benign. It is this xenophobia which is at the heart of racist critiques of multiculturalism. Some people just don't like change and will try to keep other people from changing around them as a salve against their own insecurities.

Clearly, the above articles and many of the above comments do NOT fall into this category of critique, and I did not mean to imply that they DID. However, if we're going to encourage criticism of extreme multiculturalism such as that demonstrated by Rowan William, then I think that racism is such a pervasive force for evil that we must be just as uncompromising in our attitude towards those who may try to misconstrue our comments as a blanket denunciation of other cultures. There are justified critiques of multiculturalism and then there are unjustified critiques.

In my above post, I merely meant to draw attention to the fact that many people who call themselves multiculturalists are not cultural relativists or the wishy washy kind of multiculturalist exemplified by Rowan Williams. In my mind, multiculturalism means embracing those aspects of other cultures which are objectively beneficial to society, rejecting those aspects which are objectively counterproductive, and letting everyone enjoy all other aspects of other cultures which are neither better nor worse but merely different. Maybe this doesn't qualify me to call myself a multiculturalist in your mind. My definition of multiculturalism is, I admit, just a restatement of "liberalism"; but it is, as I have already argued, the definition which many multiculturalists would sympathise with and there are a number of good reasons for why they retain the term "multiculturalism" even if it IS just a euphemism for liberalism. I think that there may be a lot more common ground here than some posters are willing to admit.

Other Comments by oisha

33. Comment #125324 by Bonzai on February 11, 2008 at 8:31 am

First, this is not entirely a race issue. Religion is self segregating, some of the most strident Muslims are Western converts,

Secondly, "Multiculturalism" doesn't have the same connotation in Europe as it is in Canada where the term is coined.

In Europe "multiculturalism" is basically a form of institutionalized cultural apartheid. Identity is binding, "Multiculturalism" is way to slot and manage people based on some collective identity.

It is an adaptation of colonial technique to the domestic immigrant population.Under this scheme the "multi-cultural" people are supposedly represented by their tribal elders and chiefs and the government would only deal with these self appointed representatives. Hence you have the funding of faith schools, the musing of separate laws as long as they only apply to "your kinds", and the assumption that outfits such as MCB actually "represent" Muslims.

In spite of the appearance of catering to minority, ultimately it is a kind of racism which serves the purpose of keeping minorities in their ghettos rather than helping them to become full citizens. It erects a firewall between the minorities and the mainstream society. The assumption is that as long as you keep your own crap to your own community you can live in the bubble we create for you, but don't let the shit spill over to pollute us.

Moreover, the minorities themselves don't necessarily ask for these "special treatments", really absurd ideas like banning the three little pigs in the name of "sensitivity" are more often than not the creation by the hpersensitive "white" elite,--I hate to use the word "liberal" as a pejorative,--with encouragement from "community leaders" with their own agendas when the everyday Muslims are unfairly targeted for backlash when the "appeasement" goes too far.

In Europe "Multiculturalism" should be more appropriately called Multiple Monoculturalism.

In Canada, predegree is not as important comparing to Europe and "identity" is in general more fluid, "Multiculturalism" is this context merely provides a comfort zone, especially for first generation immigrants, It doesn't exclude and doesn't preclude participation in mainstream society. It merely allows an identity in addition to the common citizenship, nothing is taking away. It allows people to slip in and out of different identities, it is liberating rather than binding.

Other Comments by Bonzai

34. Comment #125332 by HughCaldwell on February 11, 2008 at 8:44 am

"...all must be subject to the overall law of the land, not their own. 31. Comment #125297 by Quetzalcoatl on February 11, 2008 at 7:56 am "

This is a two-way process. The 'law of the land" is ever-changing.

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35. Comment #125336 by Quetzalcoatl on February 11, 2008 at 8:54 am

 avatarHughCaldwell-

This is a two-way process. The 'law of the land" is ever-changing


Perhaps, but everyone should still abide by it. Separate laws for separate communities is a recipe for insular segregation.

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36. Comment #125337 by Bonzai on February 11, 2008 at 8:57 am

Steve,

The difficulty with that is that people have different ideas of what "equal before the law" means.

I remember hearing the following argument against gay rights : "Gay men have the same rights as 'normal' men - they can marry women too."


Well straight men and women can marry members of the same sex too under same sex marriage. The law is universal. It doesn't create special status for gays, it just makes marriage gender blind.

Actually some straights do marry with same sex "partners" for convenience. Again this only broadens equality to make abusing the law more accessible to gays and straights alike.

In conclusion, same sex marriage doesn't contravene the principle of equality before the law.

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37. Comment #125342 by AllanW on February 11, 2008 at 9:01 am

 avatarRe; comment #125332 HughCalgwell
'This is a two-way process. The 'law of the land" is ever-changing.'

Of course; and your point is?

Or is this meant to suggest that you disagree with the good posts above defining and discussing multiculturalism?

Do you accept Quetz's point above?

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38. Comment #125343 by HughCaldwell on February 11, 2008 at 9:02 am

"Separate laws for separate communities is a recipe for insular segregation.35. Comment #125336 by Quetzalcoatl on February 11, 2008 at 8:54 am"

I'm having trouble figuring out what we mean by 'laws'. Beth Din (Jewish courts) lay down all sorts of rules which consenting Jews are supposed to obey. I imagine anything Islamic would be the same. This is my idea of multiculturalism.

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39. Comment #125345 by Bonzai on February 11, 2008 at 9:03 am

Regardless of interpretation, a central idea of Sharia is exactly to slot people based on religion and apply separate laws to different communities based on the superstition they happen to subscribe to. It is the idea of "equality" in idealized Sharia ,--that is, ignoring the difficulties and unbalance of power when different faiths interact in a legal context. Some Muslims actually try to use this as a selling point for Sharia,

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40. Comment #125346 by AllanW on February 11, 2008 at 9:05 am

 avatar'I'm having trouble figuring out what we mean by 'laws'.'

Lame, post-modernistic arse gravy; post your views.

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41. Comment #125349 by al-rawandi on February 11, 2008 at 9:14 am

 avatarBonzai,


Historically, it has been based on allowing the indigenous conquered peoples to maintain their legal systems. The Muslims would invade and leave their forces in garrison towns (such as Kufa, Iraq, Cairo, Baghdad etc... In fact modern cities such as Baghdad were simply garrison cities which developed into their own cities. Baghdad was actually across the river from Ctesiphon). The forces would generally not interfere in the day to day domestic activities of the lands. Thus it was necessary that Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, etc... keep their legal institutions, so the conquering forces would not be required to manage the lives of these people.

Once the state was established in a more serious manner these communities were allowed to maintain these legal institutions and were forced to pay a tax. They were excused from military service, but were largely discriminated against in all areas of life, however never forced to convert, so long as they were Christian or Jewish or in some instances Zoroastrian and Hindu.

The entirety of this is based on a document known as Mithaq al-Madina (The Constitution of Madina) which was authored by Muhammad granting civil rights to the Jews of Madina after his migration.

It is a perfect example of the inequality of people in Islamic law.

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42. Comment #125350 by HughCaldwell on February 11, 2008 at 9:15 am

"Regardless of interpretation, a central idea of Sharia is exactly to slot people based on religion39. Comment #125345 by Bonzai on February 11, 2008 at 9:03 am "

The Archbishop didn't advocate a system of Sharia law, either in parallel to, or as a replacement for, British law.

Other Comments by HughCaldwell

43. Comment #125353 by Quetzalcoatl on February 11, 2008 at 9:19 am

 avatarHugh Caldwell-

I'm having trouble figuring out what we mean by 'laws'


Really????? I would have thought it was obvious.

Beth Din (Jewish courts) lay down all sorts of rules which consenting Jews are supposed to obey. I imagine anything Islamic would be the same.


You honestly think Sharia courts would be the same as Beth Din courts? It wouldn't stop there. I'm not particularly a fan of there being Beth Din courts anyway, although I admit I know relatively little about the subject.

You must understand the danger of there being different legal systems for different groups within one country.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

44. Comment #125355 by al-rawandi on February 11, 2008 at 9:24 am

 avatarQuetzacoatl,


Beth Din is a nasty bit. Women have next to no rights. Draconian Halacha law is enforced. It is Old Testament justice.

So it would not be identical, but as bad.

I am seeing a lot of people here treat Jews and Judaism as some cuddly harmless little faith. The only thing that keeps this nasty system of beliefs in check is their small number and high degree of secularization. Believe me, halacha is every bit as nasty as shariah.

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45. Comment #125356 by HughCaldwell on February 11, 2008 at 9:24 am

"You must understand the danger of there being different legal systems for different groups within one country. 43. Comment #125353 by Quetzalcoatl on February 11, 2008 at 9:19 am "

The Archbishop is not suggesting that.

Other Comments by HughCaldwell

46. Comment #125358 by Bonzai on February 11, 2008 at 9:26 am

Al-Ranwandi,

Once the state was established in a more serious manner these communities were allowed to maintain these legal institutions and were forced to pay a tax. They were excused from military service, but were largely discriminated against in all areas of life, however never forced to convert, so long as they were Christian or Jewish or in some instances Zoroastrian and Hindu.


I may be wrong on that, my understanding is that even under ideal circumstances, the "protection racket" extends only to "People of the Book", namely Jews and Christians, but Hindus and other Pagans are fair game. So there is a hierarchy of superstitions under Sharia. In reality even Jews and Christians are under pressure to convert.

Other Comments by Bonzai

47. Comment #125362 by wednesdayguevara on February 11, 2008 at 9:30 am

Are Beth Din courts presided over exclusively by men? If so, they, as Sharia courts, have no place in a liberal democracy.

Other Comments by wednesdayguevara

48. Comment #125368 by al-rawandi on February 11, 2008 at 9:34 am

 avatarBonzai,



Theoretically the "protection" only applied to people of the book.

Muhammad decreed that Zoroastrians be treated as "people of the book" specifically in Bharain.

Hindus were fair game, although the Moghul dynasty in India actually granted them more rights and Brahmans served in the govt. Some of the generals in Shah Ahmad's army were actuall Hindu. But this was due to political expediency and not textual impetus.

Largely others were given little choice. Leave Muslim lands, convert, or die.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

49. Comment #125369 by Partisan on February 11, 2008 at 9:35 am

 avatarThe author comes to a very good conclusion: Britain has a proud tradition of Liberalism yet Liberalism's tenents can be confused with those of Multiculturalism, which is what's happening now. The rights of the Individual should always come before the rights of a cultural group; well said.

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50. Comment #125370 by Bonzai on February 11, 2008 at 9:35 am

HugeCaldwell,

I'm having trouble figuring out what we mean by 'laws'. Beth Din (Jewish courts) lay down all sorts of rules which consenting Jews are supposed to obey. I imagine anything Islamic would be the same. This is my idea of multiculturalism.


Well people make private agreements and settlements out of court all the time, But these agreements are not automatically legally binding. They don't have formal legal status and participants can always back out in case a court decision is sought,

If this is how "Sharia courts" work then they don't require any legal recognition. But by enshrining them into legal system the state is granting Sharia special status that other private agreements don't enjoy and effectively formalizing Sharia court rulings in the law. That must not be allowed to happen.

I don't know how Jewish courts work but in my province Ontario, Jewish courts are stripped of their legal status as well after the rejection of Sharia. As our Premier puts it, there is only one law in Ontario, no religious courts, period. I think that is great.

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