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Friday, February 15, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document Dumb and Dumber: Are Americans Hostile to Knowledge?

by NY Times

Thanks to mr_joshua_69 for the link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/14/books/14dumb.html?ex=1203656400&en=c890bc759b2111be&ei=5070&emc=eta1

By PATRICIA COHEN

A popular video on YouTube shows Kellie Pickler, the adorable platinum blonde from "American Idol," appearing on the Fox game show "Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?" during celebrity week. Selected from a third-grade geography curriculum, the $25,000 question asked: "Budapest is the capital of what European country?"

Ms. Pickler threw up both hands and looked at the large blackboard perplexed. "I thought Europe was a country," she said. Playing it safe, she chose to copy the answer offered by one of the genuine fifth graders: Hungary. "Hungry?" she said, eyes widening in disbelief. "That's a country? I've heard of Turkey. But Hungry? I've never heard of it."

Such, uh, lack of global awareness is the kind of thing that drives Susan Jacoby, author of "The Age of American Unreason," up a wall. Ms. Jacoby is one of a number of writers with new books that bemoan the state of American culture.

Joining the circle of curmudgeons this season is Eric G. Wilson, whose "Against Happiness" warns that the "American obsession with happiness" could "well lead to a sudden extinction of the creative impulse, that could result in an extermination as horrible as those foreshadowed by global warming and environmental crisis and nuclear proliferation."

Then there is Lee Siegel's "Against the Machine: Being Human in the Age of the Electronic Mob," which inveighs against the Internet for encouraging solipsism, debased discourse and arrant commercialization. Mr. Siegel, one might remember, was suspended by The New Republic for using a fake online persona in order to trash critics of his blog ("you couldn't tie Siegel's shoelaces") and to praise himself ("brave, brilliant").

Ms. Jacoby, whose book came out on Tuesday, doesn't zero in on a particular technology or emotion, but rather on what she feels is a generalized hostility to knowledge. She is well aware that some may tag her a crank. "I expect to get bashed," said Ms. Jacoby, 62, either as an older person who upbraids the young for plummeting standards and values, or as a secularist whose defense of scientific rationalism is a way to disparage religion.

Ms. Jacoby, however, is quick to point out that her indictment is not limited by age or ideology. Yes, she knows that eggheads, nerds, bookworms, longhairs, pointy heads, highbrows and know-it-alls have been mocked and dismissed throughout American history. And liberal and conservative writers, from Richard Hofstadter to Allan Bloom, have regularly analyzed the phenomenon and offered advice.

T. J. Jackson Lears, a cultural historian who edits the quarterly review Raritan, said, "The tendency to this sort of lamentation is perennial in American history," adding that in periods "when political problems seem intractable or somehow frozen, there is a turn toward cultural issues."

But now, Ms. Jacoby said, something different is happening: anti-intellectualism (the attitude that "too much learning can be a dangerous thing") and anti-rationalism ("the idea that there is no such things as evidence or fact, just opinion") have fused in a particularly insidious way.

Not only are citizens ignorant about essential scientific, civic and cultural knowledge, she said, but they also don't think it matters.

She pointed to a 2006 National Geographic poll that found nearly half of 18- to 24-year-olds don't think it is necessary or important to know where countries in the news are located. So more than three years into the Iraq war, only 23 percent of those with some college could locate Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Israel on a map.

Ms. Jacoby, dressed in a bright red turtleneck with lipstick to match, was sitting, appropriately, in that temple of knowledge, the New York Public Library's majestic Beaux Arts building on Fifth Avenue. The author of seven other books, she was a fellow at the library when she first got the idea for this book back in 2001, on 9/11.

Walking home to her Upper East Side apartment, she said, overwhelmed and confused, she stopped at a bar. As she sipped her bloody mary, she quietly listened to two men, neatly dressed in suits. For a second she thought they were going to compare that day's horrifying attack to the Japanese bombing in 1941 that blew America into World War II:

"This is just like Pearl Harbor," one of the men said.

The other asked, "What is Pearl Harbor?"

"That was when the Vietnamese dropped bombs in a harbor, and it started the Vietnam War," the first man replied.

At that moment, Ms. Jacoby said, "I decided to write this book."

Ms. Jacoby doesn't expect to revolutionize the nation's educational system or cause millions of Americans to switch off "American Idol" and pick up Schopenhauer. But she would like to start a conversation about why the United States seems particularly vulnerable to such a virulent strain of anti-intellectualism. After all, "the empire of infotainment doesn't stop at the American border," she said, yet students in many other countries consistently outperform American students in science, math and reading on comparative tests.

In part, she lays the blame on a failing educational system. "Although people are going to school more and more years, there's no evidence that they know more," she said.

Ms. Jacoby also blames religious fundamentalism's antipathy toward science, as she grieves over surveys that show that nearly two-thirds of Americans want creationism to be taught along with evolution.

Ms. Jacoby doesn't leave liberals out of her analysis, mentioning the New Left's attacks on universities in the 1960s, the decision to consign African-American and women's studies to an "academic ghetto" instead of integrating them into the core curriculum, ponderous musings on rock music and pop culture courses on everything from sitcoms to fat that trivialize college-level learning.

Avoiding the liberal or conservative label in this particular argument, she prefers to call herself a "cultural conservationist."

For all her scholarly interests, though, Ms. Jacoby said she recognized just how hard it is to tune out the 24/7 entertainment culture. A few years ago she participated in the annual campaign to turn off the television for a week. "I was stunned at how difficult it was for me," she said.

The surprise at her own dependency on electronic and visual media made her realize just how pervasive the culture of distraction is and how susceptible everyone is — even curmudgeons.

Comments 1 - 50 of 183 |

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1. Comment #127368 by Tomcat on February 15, 2008 at 7:50 am

Well, when you're the most important country in the world, who cares about if you know anything about the other ones?

Or that's the idea. I think what's more astounding is that "eggheads" often can explain to you all about physics and evolution, but they don't "know" how to talk to people at a party...

Other Comments by Tomcat

2. Comment #127374 by Philip1978 on February 15, 2008 at 7:57 am

 avatarI think this is somewhat unfair, I know several people from my own green and pleasant land who cannot locate the difference twixt their arse and elbow!

Interesting study though, I wonder what would happen if they did the same in England, has anyone heard of such an investigation?

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

3. Comment #127378 by Quetzalcoatl on February 15, 2008 at 8:02 am

 avatar
and anti-rationalism ("the idea that there is no such things as evidence or fact, just opinion")


I've read arguments like this made by religious believers.

On the whole though, America's a big place, and there will no doubt be plenty of smart people there. This article seems a little unfair.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

4. Comment #127384 by Epinephrine on February 15, 2008 at 8:12 am

 avatarSounds like a good book; people are amazingly ignorant. Granted, I cant tell you who an actor is on sight, nor what roles he played or what movies won prizes, so I'm guilty of ignorance too, but I'd like to think the things that I do follow are a little more important than following football trades (or whatever people discuss) and awards ceremonies.

Maybe I'm the ignorant one...

@Quetzalcoatl -

Sure, America is big, and there are smart folks there too, but stupidity is almost appreciated. As long as you have kids pulling low grades because they don't want to be uncool, schools offering huge celebrations for athletic achievement but scarcely any recognition for academic achievement, and media continually portraying science, math, and education as boring, repressed and laughable you'll have problems getting people interested in learning.

The grossly unfair portrayal of science (and mathematics, or learning in general) as nerdy, uncool, mostly pointless and arrogant isn't going to help matters. Thankfully there are some interesting shows nowadays with a science edge that aren't portraying all scientists in a poor light. As much as I can't stand watching CSI, since the science is absurd and drives me up the wall, it portrays a very scientific field in an interesting and even attractive manner. I'll say bravo to that.

Other Comments by Epinephrine

5. Comment #127385 by tybowen on February 15, 2008 at 8:14 am

 avatarHaving recently graduated from high school (2005) I would like to say that the real problem is not "electronic distraction" but rather seems to be the effort to not hurt anyone's feelings or pride. When teachers are not allowed to fail a student because it would make them feel bad or are not allowed to teach a subject (evolution) because it might offend some people. This all lead to the inflation of grades and lowering of expectations.

Other Comments by tybowen

6. Comment #127387 by bentleyd on February 15, 2008 at 8:14 am

 avatarHere's the referenced YouTube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juOQhTuzDQ0

Keep in mind that the "contestants" on these types of shows are intentionally selected based on their "lack" of intelligence for the purpose of ridicule. This genre of television show is similar to Jerry Springer, who displays the dregs of society for public amusement.

As an American, I cringe when this kind of crap from Hollywood is exported overseas. This nonsense is what gives us a bad reputation.

Other Comments by bentleyd

7. Comment #127391 by Roland_F on February 15, 2008 at 8:22 am

In my office there are from time to time this mails circulated when another manifestation of unbelievable knowledge gaps of US citizens were recorded.
The reporter shows a map of Australia and Tasmania titled North and South Korea and most US citizens does not recognize this.
And the angry reply from a Texas cowboy to some commenter from Sydney is then that the persons from the UK (so Sydney is in the UK !) are themselves stupid.
And the president G.W.B. was surprised that there are also many black people living in Brazil and he does not remember which country he was visiting in Europe before (Slovakia)

Yes according to the holy Bible eating from the tree of knowledge is a very bad sin and blessed are the poor in spirit as theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Other Comments by Roland_F

8. Comment #127393 by Epinephrine on February 15, 2008 at 8:24 am

 avatar- bentleyd,

Wow, that clip is BAD...

Other Comments by Epinephrine

9. Comment #127394 by Mango on February 15, 2008 at 8:24 am

 avatarMy girlfriend is a graduate student in America and I chide her every time I see her on a ridiculous gossip webpage. She's simply a woman of her times -- she has an innate intelligence but is swept up in the rot of popular culture.

Intellectuals, and intellectualism, are not American values. There are too many distractions for people to turn to to avoid thinking. Thinking and intellectual self-improvement are hard work, and most people avoid it.

Look at the American presidential race. The talking heads on TV say something like, "Obama won South Carolina with 90% of the black vote." The next level of analysis, such as why people cast their precious vote on the basis of a phenotype, might as well be string theory.

Other Comments by Mango

10. Comment #127399 by memphis matt on February 15, 2008 at 8:37 am

It's about time someone - other than the usual conservatives such as bloom and hofstadter- wrote a book on this topic. I can tell you from personal experience (as a lifelong Tennesseean) that america is full of "intelligent" but vacuous people who can make a decent grade in even graduate level courses, but who have very few interests other than American Idol and Desperate Housewives. These are the same people who can, say, pass the bar exam with ease and still reject evolution. Maybe it's also like this in UK, but i haven't spent much time over there.

Here in the US, we have a serious problem in education. You can be functionally illiterate and still graduate from high school. Because "everybody has to graduate" from high school and "go to college", college degrees are now basically worthless. I know many graduates of legitimate 4-year universities who are basically retarded and who have absolutely nothing interesting to say. You really have no chance of getting a high-end job without a post-graduate (law, medical, Masters, or PhD) degree. And as i just said, there is no guarantee that even a good post-grad degree will make you a well-rounded or interesting person.

I think the real problem is not that people are literally stupid, but rather that they lack curiosity and genuine interest in the world around them. At least in America, this type of ignorance is quietly and systematically encouraged. I don't know why this is, but it is true.

Other Comments by memphis matt

11. Comment #127402 by annabanana on February 15, 2008 at 8:40 am

 avatarI hate this kind of pessimism. I don't think it does any good to continually lament the present times in such a way. I'm not sure if this is a good analogy or not, but it reminds me of this study I read about that people who think that "everything gives you cancer" don't bother to live healthy lives and thus end up being a self-fulfilling prophecy. From the article, it seems that the book is just a long-winded bitch-fest. If you aren't going to offer some sort of solution or be part of a solution, then shut up.

I would also like to add that collective human knowledge and technology have advanced rather quickly over the last century or so. Is it really that big of a surprise that some people are going to have a hard time keeping up?

Other Comments by annabanana

12. Comment #127404 by elfinabout on February 15, 2008 at 8:44 am

 avatarThe current American "condition" is progressing exactly as intended by those at the top.

Informed, knowledgeable people are difficult to control. They are aware of their rights, able to spot abuses of it and have the annoying tendency to react unfavourably if taken advantage of.

If you want to be able to use your population for your own purposes - to have a virtually unlimited supply of cheap labour and willing army recruits to keep the wars (and hence the military-industrial complex) going, you do the following:

Keep them stuffed with cheap, addictive junk food that temporarily satiates them but has little nutritional value needed for complex thought or general fitness - this keeps them tame;

Force upon them an unrelenting, homogenous media barrage controlled by a select few individuals that tells them over and over and over that they are in imminent danger from unspecified and undefinable external agents - this keeps them scared and lets you remove their rights in the name of "security";

Keep them working their arses off 12 hours a day to keep a roof over their heads and pay for all medical assistance - this stops them having too much free time to relax and think;

Make exams easier, dumb down science or ignore it completely, and encourage anti-scientific, religious thinking. Make rationality and critical thinking seem elitist or pointless. This promotes credulity to the point that they believe without question the vast majority of what the aforementioned media channels tell them;

Encourage segregation and suspicion of all cultural groups that do not fit within one narrow set of parameters. Make vague associations between countries/colours and terrorism, etc., and reinforce them constantly - this keeps the embers hot and allows you to mobilise vast numbers of people to your cause in deeply emotionally-charged ways at the drop of a hat.

Americans - take a step back, and maybe have a look at some of Herman Goerings' writings - the methods he employed on the German people before they marched en-masse on Europe. The parallels are astonishing...

Other Comments by elfinabout

13. Comment #127406 by rod-the-farmer on February 15, 2008 at 8:49 am

 avatarThis Kellie Pickler video is truly depressing. I am not alone in saying I have met a number of people who supposedly have a university degree, but could not find their posterior with both hands in the dark. But this air-head blonde is truly an embarrassment. I know National Geographic is trying to do something about this sort of abysmal ignorance. But I feel it will be like bailing out the ocean. WAY too much to get done in the lifetime of a human. If you gently confront these people, they just shrug their shoulders and say "Well, I never was very good at ----pick a subject---." (cringe)

Maybe we need to promote reading - a LOT more.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

14. Comment #127407 by aquilacane on February 15, 2008 at 8:49 am

 avatarIt won't be long before I can bus cheap American labour over the border into my Canadian factories. Pay them crap and make them sleep in freezing cold rooms with no water or facilities.

And they will like it, or starve!

Other Comments by aquilacane

15. Comment #127412 by annabanana on February 15, 2008 at 8:52 am

 avatarelfinabout, maybe calm down with the conspiracy theories?

Other Comments by annabanana

16. Comment #127413 by sidfaiwu on February 15, 2008 at 8:52 am

 avatarAs long as you have enough people and enough time, anyone can collect a bunch of anecdotes of stupidity. The few actual stats offered in the article are about very specific pieces of information.

"only 23 percent of those with some college could locate Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Israel on a map."

What percentage could identify 3 of the 4? The book does sound a bit like a "kids these days" complaint book. The population is really quite diverse. There are large groups of young people who highly value intelligence, creativity, and high culture. They just get none of the press.

That being said, I do notice some anti-intellectual attitudes in America. It's especially bad for females who seem to be given the message that smart = unattractive.

Other Comments by sidfaiwu

17. Comment #127422 by annabanana on February 15, 2008 at 9:01 am

 avatarsidfaiwu, as an American, I've never been under the impression that smart=unattractive. As a matter of fact, I've always had the impression that it was a double whammy! Of course, that's just anecdote.

Although, I will say that most people seem to assume that I'm young, naive, and stupid when they first lay eyes on me. Oh, the plights of being attractive.

Other Comments by annabanana

18. Comment #127426 by Mango on February 15, 2008 at 9:14 am

 avatar
comment 11 annabanana If you aren't going to offer some sort of solution or be part of a solution, then shut up.


We are not told from the article whether her analysis of the situation includes prescriptions for change. Regardless, what's wrong with an indictment of a cultural situation that delves into the depth and ubiquity of a perceived problem and leaves the answers for another book? Certainly her work has value either way and your rude off-the-cuff dismissal seems out of line.

Other Comments by Mango

19. Comment #127427 by al-rawandi on February 15, 2008 at 9:16 am

 avatarWell lets look at how many people live in England...


50,000,000

Let's say 50% are smart.

25,000,000


In the US total population

303,000,000

Let's say 10% are smart

30,300,000.



That means even if you have 5 times as many smart people in England, we still have more smart people.

So percentages be damned.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

20. Comment #127428 by elfinabout on February 15, 2008 at 9:21 am

 avatar@annabanana:

Throwing the phrase "conspiracy theory" at someone who points out something patently obvious but undesirable is exactly the reaction those in control want you to have - carefully fostered over the last few decades via very careful media manipulation.

If you are _actually_ under the impression that this is _not_ happening, and you think that the American administration has your best interests at heart, then I'm afraid that however informed you may consider yourself, you are one of the many and I'm afraid I must suggest you are quite naieve.
This situation is painfully, sadly obvious to most people living outside the US.

Other Comments by elfinabout

21. Comment #127430 by digitalia on February 15, 2008 at 9:27 am

 avatarsidfaiwu and annabanana - good points, both of you. i think there just appears to be more of a DIVIDE of intellectualism in this day and age. and shows like this just pander to the same side of us that can't seem to look away from a car accident.

and SMART = HOTNESS !!!

Other Comments by digitalia

22. Comment #127433 by ordeneus on February 15, 2008 at 9:33 am

@ #127412, why? You dispute this obviously? I think elfinabout is probably a lot closer to the mark than you obviously do.

Whetever one ascribes to the motives of it, it's hard not to deduce that those in charge of mass media are indeed trying to dumb down the populace. Stupidity is celebrated, the masses are distracted with sports or American Idol, or whatever.

Manufacturing Consent anyone?

Other Comments by ordeneus

23. Comment #127434 by Monosilabbiq on February 15, 2008 at 9:34 am

It sounds to me as if a few more Universities need a Professorship in the Public Understanding of Science.

Despite the gloom I can say that the Americans I met at my British university knew a lot more about their own country than I did about mine. They were proud of America and wanted to know everything about it. It would have helped if someone had equally inspired them to learn about the rest of the world. They certainly showed no lack of ability to absorb/retain information.

Other Comments by Monosilabbiq

24. Comment #127435 by mesomodel on February 15, 2008 at 9:37 am

 avatarThere was a related discussion on the failures of the American education system on a previous thread.

I'm not optimistic things are going to get better.

Other Comments by mesomodel

25. Comment #127436 by Geoff on February 15, 2008 at 9:38 am

 avatarI can assure you that there is a high percentage of uneducated schoolchildren in the UK; I'm in the middle of marking mountains of GCSE mock exam papers at present!

Other Comments by Geoff

26. Comment #127440 by annabanana on February 15, 2008 at 9:44 am

 avatarMango, this comment suggests to me that she doesn't really do anything but complain in her book:

Ms. Jacoby, whose book came out on Tuesday, doesn't zero in on a particular technology or emotion, but rather on what she feels is a generalized hostility to knowledge.


Not to mention, I said "from the article..." and in case you didn't catch the subtleness of that phrase, that means I have yet to evaluate the book for myself, but judging from the synopsis of it in the article, it seems that she is offering no sort of solutions. I maintain my opinion that general pessimism is not helpful. Optimism and the thought that you can actually make a difference usually leads to a difference being made. Lamenting is just that; lamenting for the sake of it. "Woe as me, everyone's stupid." This wasn't a rude, off-the-cuff dismissal. I actually do tend to think about what I say, believe it or not.

elfinabout, you have an outsider's point of view; I have an insider's point of view. I'm not contending that you don't have some valid points, but I think you've taken it a bit far. Your assertions are presented as if they are fact and you call them "patently obvious" when this is only speculation. You also make it sound as if Americans are forced to do the things you are suggesting. Last time I checked there were a good many people who eat only organic, whole foods, worked out a lot, and were reasonably educated. So, I have a problem with your sweeping generalizations.

EDIT: If I had a dollar for every time I'd gotten called naive on this site...

I genuinely wonder what the response to my comments would be like if my avatar were something genderless or even a picture of a guy...

Other Comments by annabanana

27. Comment #127445 by al-rawandi on February 15, 2008 at 9:49 am

 avatarmesomodel,


I share your pessimism about the future. Hopefully someone with power gets it.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

28. Comment #127451 by Jonathan Dore on February 15, 2008 at 9:56 am

Obviously Americans are not, as a group, distributed any differently along the IQ bell-curve from anyone else. But as epinephrine notes above, there is a particular strand of American cultural attitudes that has made the unfortunate equation of inarticulacy with sincerity, and of articulacy with duplicity. (You can see this, for instance, in the common casting of the well-spoken, often aristocratic Englishman as the villain in movies, from the voice of Shere Khan in Disney's "Jungle Book" to just about anything involving Mel Gibson -- this surely has deep cultural roots, probably going back to the War of Independence.)

Since inarticulacy can also disguise idiocy, this has had the even more unfortunate result of allowing lack of intelligence to seem virtuous, and when lack of intelligence is combined with malevolence (step forward, Shrub), this can make a pretty lethal combination.

Once again I emphasize that this is merely one strand in American thought, and by no means characterizes all, or even most, Americans; nor is it remotely confined to Americans. But if anyone doubts that there is a broadly national, and not just personal, element to this thinking, I invite them to try to imagine someone even remotely like Bush being elected chief executive in, say, France, Britain, Norway or Denmark ...

Other Comments by Jonathan Dore

29. Comment #127452 by mesomodel on February 15, 2008 at 9:58 am

 avataral-rawandi,

OT: I looked up "Homunculi headed robot".
Wouldn't such a robot require the ability to learn from inputs (like the brain) in order to work continuously? Future decisions and actions are guided by past outcomes.

EDIT: We can continue the discussion on the "Danish Cartoonist" thread, if you'd like.

Other Comments by mesomodel

30. Comment #127453 by MPhil on February 15, 2008 at 10:00 am

 avatarHave a look at this and despair:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE&feature=related

...an excerpt:

-"Which country should we invade next in the war on terror?"
-"Uh... France."
-"Why would you say 'France'"?
-"Well, err, because there's some friction going on between France and the United States."

Other Comments by MPhil

31. Comment #127454 by Sally Luxmoore on February 15, 2008 at 10:01 am

 avatarBefore I say this, I freely acknowledge that we have plenty of ignorant people here in England.

BUT - When I went to America for the first time, in 1977, I was asked:
-whether people in England spoke English
-whereabouts in France England was
and - whether we had cars in England.

Being gobsmacked and also reluctant to be rude to people who were being very friendly to me, I failed to make the witty replies that perhaps I should have done.

Other Comments by Sally Luxmoore

32. Comment #127455 by al-rawandi on February 15, 2008 at 10:05 am

 avatarmesomodel,



It is no doubt problematic. It was a philosophical question of consciousness. It was paired with the "doppleganer perception" problem.

Like, if I see red as green and you see it as red. There is no way to know that I really see green, because when you point to red, you say red, and I say red. So I would appear normal to everyone and would be able to use stoplights (assuming red and green are reversed) just fine.

As for the robot, it would need to learn. But I think the functions were assigned individually to the Chinese, so this presupposes there is already some sort of consciousness present at the outset. But if one takes the intent of the model, I doub't it would function.

Just like if I created a robot (AI) that exactly mirrored my every synapse, blood cell, bone, etc... and I uploaded all of my memories, etc... into the brain of the AI, would this suddenly become conscious as myself.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

33. Comment #127458 by al-rawandi on February 15, 2008 at 10:08 am

 avatarSally,


I have a friend from Switzerland. He was asked by an athlete at Berkeley whether or not they had electricity there. He informed her that the per capita GDP was higher there than in the US. Unfortunately this girl had no idea what GDP was or how it could be "per capita".

I proceeded to defenestrate myself so I missed the rest of the exchange.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

34. Comment #127460 by Epinephrine on February 15, 2008 at 10:10 am

 avatarAnnabanana -

I try to treat everyone based on how they behave, not their avatar. I suspect most people do; I don't expect that al-rawandi is actually Duff-Man for example ;)

Optimism is associated by many with naivete (darn post won't accept accents), just as many view comments like elfinabout's as "conspiracy theory" - you're both dismissive of each other. I'd like to think others are reacting to your optimism rather than your image, but either is possible.

Yes, making a change and presenting fixes are better than just complaining, but complaining is a good start *when nobody seems to think there is a problem*. If you are denying the problem, why would you even listen to complaints? Raising the issues in the first place, with some data behind it, is a good idea.

Where I live (Ontario, Canada) we had a conservative government come into power a while back, and they hacked up the funding for universities. University tuitions have skyrocketted, and as a result fewer people will go to school. It's not a "conspiracy theory" to start to wonder about whether there is more to the decision than simply saving some money short term. There are real benefits to the wealthy and conservative of keeping higher education elite and of having more people in trades; it allows companies to hire cheaper labour, makes industry grow, and puts money in the pockets of the wealthy. Those who are behind the changes have the money to put their kids in school, so it won't affect them, their children will still benefit from higher education. Is it a conspiracy theoristic point of view to lok at the facts and try to determine why some actions are taken?

I do think that there is some good coming out of some newer media; shows that engage the public with science and mathematics in non-boring ways, that present them as interesting pursuits and fields are on the rise; Numbers, House, CSI, and on the "discovery"-type channels you see shows that try to bridge the gaps somewhat - How it's Made, Mythbusters, Guinea Pig and so on. Sure, watching Adam and Jamie blow things up is entertaining, but there's a lot of physics in there for the layperson.

That's a good thing - make science seem fun. I'd like to see fewer shows with characters like Professor Frink, and more scientists like those on CSI - attractive, confident, showing off their knowledge in an impressive but not arrogant manner, getting young people thinking about wanting to learn that stuff.

Other Comments by Epinephrine

35. Comment #127461 by mesomodel on February 15, 2008 at 10:14 am

 avatar

Just like if I created a robot (AI) that exactly mirrored my every synapse, blood cell, bone, etc... and I uploaded all of my memories, etc... into the brain of the AI, would this suddenly become conscious as myself.


Just conjecture...If one could build and wire a brain in the exact configuration of yours (or mine) at some instant in time, pre-load it with memories, and initialize it with the same electrical and chemical state as the real brain, I do think it would be a conscious entity that self-identifies with its real brain template.
I don't think there's anything non-materialistic about consciousness. Consciousness is the result of the configuration and wiring of the brain. When you die, your brain dies, and the bulb goes out. The end.

We can continue this on the Danish Cartoon thread, if you'd like, but it's probably just as OT on that thread.

Other Comments by mesomodel

36. Comment #127464 by Epinephrine on February 15, 2008 at 10:20 am

 avatar@MPhil

I have to laugh that the reporter who introduced the piece made an error in his first sentence, using "further" in place of "farther".

Other Comments by Epinephrine

37. Comment #127466 by Sally Luxmoore on February 15, 2008 at 10:21 am

 avatarAl - Rawandi

That made me laugh out loud.

I did a PGCE (teacher training) some years ago and my then tutor said that his aim was to put The Sun newspaper out of business. This is a paper that requires a reading age of 9 and (I think I'm right in saying this) it out sells all the 'intelligent' newspapers put together, by far.

There's no danger of it losing its readership in the near future.

Who was it who said you can never lose money by underestimating the intelligence of the British population?

Other Comments by Sally Luxmoore

38. Comment #127468 by ordeneus on February 15, 2008 at 10:24 am

Epinephrine

While I understand your point about slightly more intelligent portrayals of science in certain shows... Aren't even those still part of the same pattern though? People watching CSI are too busy thinking about cheesy acting to worry about military spending, or disporportionate tax cuts, or any other serious issue facing them. Keep the populace distracted, with CSI, or sports, or whatever, and they won't be asking the ackward questions. To me the ultimate expression of this, is US news coverage. At a time when they're knee deep in a middle east war, they take a month out for wall to wall coverage of Anna Nicole Smith dying... Amazing!

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39. Comment #127469 by Mango on February 15, 2008 at 10:26 am

 avatar
comment 27 annabanana - I genuinely wonder what the response to my comments would be like if my avatar were something genderless or even a picture of a guy...


I'm not wondering. In comment 11 you tell the author of the book to "shut up" because the article isn't telling you if the book contains any remedies. In comment 15 you refer to elfinabout's thoughtful post as a "conspiracy theory" and recommend he "calm down." In comment 17 you call yourself "attractive." No, I'm not wondering at all -- I think your words would elicit the same replies regardless of the avatar you displayed. Few, if any, regular posters on this website are more roundly respected than Paula Kirby. I suggest you closely read how she communicates before you decide to play the gender card.

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40. Comment #127471 by mesomodel on February 15, 2008 at 10:26 am

 avatarI'm sure we could all relate local anecdotes of idiocy. The State of New Mexico isn't in Mexico?

It is a global problem, but there does seem to be a relatively high idiot density in the States. I'm certainly not a world traveler, but I've been to a good number of countries. My non-scientific survey of random citizens from these countries leads me to the conclusion that the U.S. is "dumberer".

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41. Comment #127472 by al-rawandi on February 15, 2008 at 10:27 am

 avatarMango,


Is that Sly Stallone as your avatar?

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42. Comment #127474 by arogop on February 15, 2008 at 10:29 am

 avatar14. Comment #127407 by aquilacane

Your my hero. I love the irony, and for Anna the optimistic way you present it!

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43. Comment #127475 by Mango on February 15, 2008 at 10:31 am

 avatar
al-rawandi - Is that Sly Stallone as your avatar?


Close, Dean Martin

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44. Comment #127476 by al-rawandi on February 15, 2008 at 10:34 am

 avatarmesomodel,



We can stay OT for a minute, it appears the doberman pinscher of OT (Steve Zara) is gone for the moment.

Consciousness is absolutely a materialistic event. I read a great book called "The Accidental Mind" it shed a lot of light on consciousness. Consciousness is very complicate and is very amazing, it is the major reason why people believe in God. They feel unique, they feel they have some reasoning ability that seems outside their physical body, thus they believe ridiculous things.

It is amazing that evolution from lifeless substances has yielded thinking and reasoning entities.

My point was if the robot was given this info would it become conscious as me, simultaneously?

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45. Comment #127478 by davidjn on February 15, 2008 at 10:36 am

I love how the author of the article, when mentioning the anecdote about Pearl Harbor, felt it necessary to remind the readers what did happen there, just in case they were as clueless as the two men in suits at the bar. Nothing like dumbing down an article about the dumbing down of a country.

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46. Comment #127479 by jakelovatto on February 15, 2008 at 10:36 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/901723.stm

"A hospital paediatrician has hit out at vandals who forced her to flee her home after apparently taking her job title to mean she was a paedophile.

South African-born Yvette Cloete - a 30-year-old trainee consultant at the Royal Gwent Hospital, Newport, south Wales - said she planned to move home after returning to find the outside of her property daubed with the words "paedo". "


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47. Comment #127480 by delta2echo on February 15, 2008 at 10:36 am

 avatarannabanana said:
I genuinely wonder what the response to my comments would be like if my avatar were something genderless or even a picture of a guy...


That would be a very sad thing indeed. Its sad to think that in a place like this people havent out grown such rudimentry sexisim.

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48. Comment #127482 by Epinephrine on February 15, 2008 at 10:37 am

 avatarordeneus -

I agree that people should pay more attention to things that matter, and that people are easily distracted from serious issues by fun, exciting, sensationalised media. Still, I think that there is hope, and that small steps are sometimes needed to shift things.

Changing attitudes is hard, and if the attitudes are that education is unecessary (or worse) it doesn't bode well. Making intelligent people on TV attractive, and showing exciting things that one can do with an education, teaching people to learn about the world, all of these can help shift attitudes and priorities. Removing stigmata from intelligence will likely open more people to learning. I'm not suggesting that this is the only thing we should do, but given the power of the media we should certainly not ignore it. After all, if splashing P. Hilton across every form of media known to man is enough to make her a celebrity, the same might be true of science...

P.S. Why do so many posters have names that lack capitilisation? I have a habit of capitalising the names of people I am responding to, but I am trying not to in case it is deliberate.

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49. Comment #127483 by MPhil on February 15, 2008 at 10:38 am

 avatarEpinephrine,

I think in this case you could technically use both. Of course, since we say something is 'far from true', the comparative form would be 'farther', but since it's not a physically measuarable distance, but a matter of degree of ascribing a property, I think 'further' could be technically permissible.

Still, I'd go with 'farther' for the sake of maintaining idiomatic expressions.

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50. Comment #127484 by Henri Bergson on February 15, 2008 at 10:38 am

 avatarHere in Europe Americans do have a reputation for being very dumb. There are reasons for stereotypes.

Even when I was doing my Master's, the American students were very biased (politically correct to the extreme) and undereducated.

I now cringe when I hear an American try to be intellectual. It is a prejudice, but one with some justification.

I think the underlying reason is that money is valued higher than knowledge in the US.

This is an example, very funny:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=q566ys0sqVQ

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