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US military accused of harboring fundamentalism
by Breitbart
Thanks to Thad Peters for the link.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080214063450.m1i2f0gz&show_article=1
US military accused of harboring fundamentalism
Since his last combat deployment in Iraq, Jeremy Hall has had a rough time, getting shoved and threatened by his fellow soldiers. The trouble started there when he would not pray in the mess hall.
"A senior ranking staff sergeant told me to leave and sit somewhere else because I refused to pray," Hall, a 23-year-old US army specialist, told AFP.
Later, Hall was confronted by a major for holding an authorized meeting of "atheists and freethinkers" on his base. The officer threatened to discipline him and block his re-enlistment.
"He said: 'You guys are being a problem and problems can be removed,'" Hall said. "He was yelling at us and stuff and at the very end he says, 'I really love you guys, I want you to see the light.'"
Now Hall is suing the major and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, accusing them of breaching his constitutional rights. A campaign group, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, is waiting for the Pentagon to respond to a lawsuit filed in a Kansas federal court on Hall's behalf.
It alleges a "pernicious pattern and practice" of infringement of religious liberties in the military.
The group's founder, former Air Force lawyer Mikey Weinstein, said he has documented 6,800 testimonies by military personnel -- nearly all of them Christians -- of sometimes punitive or humiliating attempts to make them accept a fundamentalist evangelical interpretation of Christianity.
"I am at war with those people who would create a fundamentalist Christian theocracy in the technologically most lethal organization ever created by our species, which is the United States armed forces," he said.
He plans to add extra charges and possibly other lawsuits this month.
"It violates title seven of the US code for an employer to push their Biblical world view on an employee," he said. "But it's a trillion times worse when that is not just your shift manager at Starbucks but that is your military superior."
He singles out one of the major Christian groups in the military, the Officers Christian Fellowship (OCF).
The group represents 15,000 US military personnel around the world, according to its director, retired Air Force general Bruce Fister.
"It is not the position of OCF to try and coerce people to believe what we believe," Fister told AFP.
OCF's aim, as stated on its website, is to achieve "a spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for Christ in uniform, empowered by the Holy Spirit."
It professes belief in "the eternal blessedness of the saved; and the everlasting, conscious punishment of the lost."
Fister emphasized the group's work to support families of soldiers deployed in the "global war on terror."
"People make mistakes. There's probably been some instances where people have wrongly spoken," he added. "We'd like them not to, but that's life."
"Our checks within our equal opportunity channels identified fewer than 100 formal complaints over a two-year period," said Pentagon spokeswoman Eileen Lainez.
Army spokesman Paul Boyce told AFP: "The Army places a high value on the rights of its soldiers to observe tenets of their respective religious faiths."
The MRFF's constitutional complaint "is a matter of the courts system to address and resolve," he added.
"The joint standards of conduct for the Armed Forces and military equal opportunity policies address the freedom of religion, avoiding discrimination because of religion."
But Weinstein argued that most personnel are "too terrified" to speak out.
"When you actually fight against them, they make your life hell," said Hall, adding he has been passed over for promotion since launching his lawsuit. "I can't get a leg up no matter what I do."
A former military chaplain of a prestigious US military college reported being prevented from leading worship after disagreeing with the fundamentalist stance of other officials.
"I am not ready to say that if someone does not profess Christ as their savior that they are going to hell ... That got a lot of people angered," the minister told AFP, speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of retaliation against a spouse who is a senior officer.
"The leader of the youth group that ministered to the teens (at the academy) said that Catholics were not Christians and that Muslims hated Christians, and that created a lot of tension," the ex-chaplain added.
"As a soldier, many times you want to believe you're fighting on the right side. It's easy to kill someone if you believe that they're going to hell and that they are religiously opposed to you."
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080214063450.m1i2f0gz&show_article=1
US military accused of harboring fundamentalism
Since his last combat deployment in Iraq, Jeremy Hall has had a rough time, getting shoved and threatened by his fellow soldiers. The trouble started there when he would not pray in the mess hall.
"A senior ranking staff sergeant told me to leave and sit somewhere else because I refused to pray," Hall, a 23-year-old US army specialist, told AFP.
Later, Hall was confronted by a major for holding an authorized meeting of "atheists and freethinkers" on his base. The officer threatened to discipline him and block his re-enlistment.
"He said: 'You guys are being a problem and problems can be removed,'" Hall said. "He was yelling at us and stuff and at the very end he says, 'I really love you guys, I want you to see the light.'"
Now Hall is suing the major and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, accusing them of breaching his constitutional rights. A campaign group, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, is waiting for the Pentagon to respond to a lawsuit filed in a Kansas federal court on Hall's behalf.
It alleges a "pernicious pattern and practice" of infringement of religious liberties in the military.
The group's founder, former Air Force lawyer Mikey Weinstein, said he has documented 6,800 testimonies by military personnel -- nearly all of them Christians -- of sometimes punitive or humiliating attempts to make them accept a fundamentalist evangelical interpretation of Christianity.
"I am at war with those people who would create a fundamentalist Christian theocracy in the technologically most lethal organization ever created by our species, which is the United States armed forces," he said.
He plans to add extra charges and possibly other lawsuits this month.
"It violates title seven of the US code for an employer to push their Biblical world view on an employee," he said. "But it's a trillion times worse when that is not just your shift manager at Starbucks but that is your military superior."
He singles out one of the major Christian groups in the military, the Officers Christian Fellowship (OCF).
The group represents 15,000 US military personnel around the world, according to its director, retired Air Force general Bruce Fister.
"It is not the position of OCF to try and coerce people to believe what we believe," Fister told AFP.
OCF's aim, as stated on its website, is to achieve "a spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for Christ in uniform, empowered by the Holy Spirit."
It professes belief in "the eternal blessedness of the saved; and the everlasting, conscious punishment of the lost."
Fister emphasized the group's work to support families of soldiers deployed in the "global war on terror."
"People make mistakes. There's probably been some instances where people have wrongly spoken," he added. "We'd like them not to, but that's life."
"Our checks within our equal opportunity channels identified fewer than 100 formal complaints over a two-year period," said Pentagon spokeswoman Eileen Lainez.
Army spokesman Paul Boyce told AFP: "The Army places a high value on the rights of its soldiers to observe tenets of their respective religious faiths."
The MRFF's constitutional complaint "is a matter of the courts system to address and resolve," he added.
"The joint standards of conduct for the Armed Forces and military equal opportunity policies address the freedom of religion, avoiding discrimination because of religion."
But Weinstein argued that most personnel are "too terrified" to speak out.
"When you actually fight against them, they make your life hell," said Hall, adding he has been passed over for promotion since launching his lawsuit. "I can't get a leg up no matter what I do."
A former military chaplain of a prestigious US military college reported being prevented from leading worship after disagreeing with the fundamentalist stance of other officials.
"I am not ready to say that if someone does not profess Christ as their savior that they are going to hell ... That got a lot of people angered," the minister told AFP, speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of retaliation against a spouse who is a senior officer.
"The leader of the youth group that ministered to the teens (at the academy) said that Catholics were not Christians and that Muslims hated Christians, and that created a lot of tension," the ex-chaplain added.
"As a soldier, many times you want to believe you're fighting on the right side. It's easy to kill someone if you believe that they're going to hell and that they are religiously opposed to you."
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Posted: Friday, February 15, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 66 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #127401 by al-rawandi on February 15, 2008 at 8:39 am
You are worried. You are English, no? I am scared to death. I can't believe there are people on this site that want to give these people discretion to torture other human beings, for any reason. Other Comments by al-rawandi
3. Comment #127403 by irate_atheist on February 15, 2008 at 8:42 am
Someone, please, use the word before I'm forced to. Other Comments by irate_atheist
4. Comment #127408 by wednesdayguevara on February 15, 2008 at 8:51 am
Fucktard?Other Comments by wednesdayguevara
5. Comment #127409 by Devolution on February 15, 2008 at 8:51 am
With a last name like "Fister" I was sure that they guy had to be Catholic! Ok sorry I couldn't resist. Other Comments by Devolution
6. Comment #127410 by Quetzalcoatl on February 15, 2008 at 8:51 am
al-rawandi-
I am indeed English.
Irate_Atheist-
just for you:
FUCKTARDS!
Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
7. Comment #127411 by rod-the-farmer on February 15, 2008 at 8:52 am
Truly scary. Not sure I ever want to visit the U.S. ever again. Other Comments by rod-the-farmer
8. Comment #127414 by bamboospitfire on February 15, 2008 at 8:52 am
All the best to Hall and Weinstein in their efforts.
It always makes me laugh when fundies in the US assert that Catholics are not Christians. It just goes to show how spectacularly stupid these people are.
One could understand if it was "us" (Christians) against "them" (Muslims), but these people seem determined to cause divisions within their own ranks. Extraordinary.
And Bruce Fister?! You couldn't make it up!
Other Comments by bamboospitfire
9. Comment #127416 by Mike187 on February 15, 2008 at 8:53 am
This sort of situation does not surprise me. I'm in the Canadian military and I know a few of the officer cadets from USAFA. They are forced to line up to go to their church and all the non-religious/other religious cadets have to go down the "walk of shame". This way everyone sees who is christian and who is not. As you can guess this does not bode well for the non-christians.Other Comments by Mike187
10. Comment #127418 by Arcturus on February 15, 2008 at 8:54 am
Nothing new, we've had Soldiers for Christ before.It's ironic though, given that Christians are preaching to love our neighbors and not to kill, they should be the biggest pacifists. Their presence in the military is a proof that they are either preaching non-sense or they are hypocrites.
Other Comments by Arcturus
11. Comment #127419 by irate_atheist on February 15, 2008 at 8:54 am
4. Comment #127408 by wednesdayguevara
6. Comment #127410 by Quetzalcoatl
Thank you, thank you so much.
The relief is palpable.
Other Comments by irate_atheist
12. Comment #127420 by irate_atheist on February 15, 2008 at 8:57 am
10. Comment #127418 by Arcturus -Nothing new, we've had Soldiers for Christ before.And the Crusades.
Ohhhh, the times they are a changin'...
Other Comments by irate_atheist
13. Comment #127421 by wednesdayguevara on February 15, 2008 at 8:59 am
Arcturus,Nah, they don't believe in the hippy-dippy long-haired Treehugging Jesus. It's the sword-wielding, fig-tree Warrior Jesus they love. Both men are in the Bible, so it's easy to get them confused.
irate_atheist,
Any time!
Other Comments by wednesdayguevara
14. Comment #127423 by mikhailkill on February 15, 2008 at 9:03 am
As a former member of the military (Air Force) I can vouch for the soldiers whom accuse the military of fostering rampant religious fundamentalism.
In fact, it is not uncommon for the military to officially sanction fundamentalist religious groups under the guise of 'alcohol education'. By the way, enlisted military personnel attendance is MANDATORY at such meetings.
Other Comments by mikhailkill
15. Comment #127424 by al-rawandi on February 15, 2008 at 9:08 am
Fucktard, I want this word translated into every language and distributed widely. Other Comments by al-rawandi
17. Comment #127441 by HourglassMemory on February 15, 2008 at 9:46 am
To be honest, it does not give me the shivers.but this must be because I live in a country that nobody gives a s**t about....except for radical muslims who want to explode in my country when our country has done nothing but exist on the coast of europe in a state of neutrality for years....
Unless the US military goes wild and becomes the organised equivalent of suicidalo-fundamentalist islam, I do not worry.
Only because my country will not suffer....much.
Other Comments by HourglassMemory
18. Comment #127446 by Incredulous on February 15, 2008 at 9:49 am
And the Crusades.
Ohhhh, the times they are a changin'...
hahahaha! This just tickled me ... well I thought it was funny, anyway.
Other Comments by Incredulous
19. Comment #127447 by al-rawandi on February 15, 2008 at 9:50 am
Hourglass,
What country is this?
Other Comments by al-rawandi
20. Comment #127449 by rod-the-farmer on February 15, 2008 at 9:52 am
Mike187In the mid 1960's, cadets at RMC who did not wish to attend church services were offered the choice of standing at attention (maybe at-ease, not sure) outside the chapel for the duration of the services. But this stuff sounds a lot worse.
Other Comments by rod-the-farmer
21. Comment #127463 by Prankster on February 15, 2008 at 10:18 am
So the bottom line is some one is abused because he doesn't want to be a "warrior for christ"?Looks like a crusade is going on not just against Islam/war on terror (to me the 2 seemed to be linked) but also against "unbelievers" or those who won't follow the faith and are exposed to shame and ridicule because of it. Truly sad and terrifying
Hourglass I assume you live in the UK (like Me?)if so we are not neutral as we have ridden on the coat tails of fuckwit Bush and gone into the middle east at the behest of a vainglorious former prime minister. A man fed bullshit and lies by "experts" claiming the likes of Saddam could deploy WMD's in 45 minutes when it wasn't the case? No weapons found after years of looking and no proof he had them.....
And you are sure no one wants to harm us?
Other Comments by Prankster
22. Comment #127470 by al-rawandi on February 15, 2008 at 10:26 am
Prankster,
I can't believe Hourglass is from England and then said:
except for radical muslims who want to explode in my country when our country has done nothing but exist on the coast of europe in a state of neutrality for years....
The week after Saddam gassed the Kurds, the British foreign minister was in Baghdad to offer Saddam 300 million pounds in British export credits. Some innocent bystander.
You would have to be monumentally stupid to think the English have been innocent. It was Churchill who fucked up Iraq to begin with.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
23. Comment #127486 by pkruger on February 15, 2008 at 10:39 am
"People make mistakes. There's probably been some instances where people have wrongly spoken," he added. "We'd like them not to, but that's life."
How refreshing to see someone is SO concerned.
"As a soldier, many times you want to believe you're fighting on the right side. It's easy to kill someone if you believe that they're going to hell and that they are religiously opposed to you."
Quick, take away his gun.
Other Comments by pkruger
24. Comment #127487 by MaxD on February 15, 2008 at 10:40 am
I ship off to basic in April. This will be annoying to say the least. Other Comments by MaxD
25. Comment #127492 by arogop on February 15, 2008 at 10:45 am
7. Comment #127411 by rod-the-farmer
Truly scary. Not sure I ever want to visit the U.S. ever again
Why? Do you think the military controls our streets? Our military hangs out in other peoples countries. Come, visit, have fun!
Other Comments by arogop
26. Comment #127494 by MaxD on February 15, 2008 at 10:45 am
I would be a warrior for Odin.
He commissions the making of cool hammers.
And everyone needs a cool hammer that can call lightning, create storms. What does Christ do for his warriors? Not much. But Odin, damnit, he could really be helpful to US military. I'm going to go see if I can get his people to talk to some folks in the pentagon.
Other Comments by MaxD
27. Comment #127495 by 82abhilash on February 15, 2008 at 10:46 am
Thomas Jefferson once said, “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.”I am hoping things would be even better. Maybe the tree of liberty can be refreshed with the blood of traitors who are killing each other - fundamentalist Christians against fundamentalist Muslims.
Other Comments by 82abhilash
28. Comment #127497 by Prankster on February 15, 2008 at 10:49 am
Al-rawandiI know and it's shameful that we had anything to do with him-we do have a shameful colonial record I know but I wasn't born when it was happening I can't comment on the UK government supplying Saddam with trade credits but I'm dammed if i'm taking the blame for any of it-sorry man....
I think Hourglass may just be covering his ears and saying "la-la-la-la" and hoping no nasty suicide bomber tries to blow him to bits/poison him/irradiate him due to a supposed neutrality for his little island. Monumental stupidity aside It does give me the shivers to think the biggest military power on the planet is "getting religion"-how long before unbelievers are converted not to xtianity but hydrogen carbon and other elements courtesy of a few well placed nukes-That's what's scaring me Hourglass, that should give everyone the shivers
Other Comments by Prankster
29. Comment #127502 by phopas on February 15, 2008 at 10:52 am
Well, this kind of excess is well taken care of under the US constitution and the court system. Unlike the UK, we do divide church and state. The evangelicals truly believe they must do all they can to prevent souls from going to hell. Well, the courts will eventually clip their wings, some officers will lose their jobs and procedures will be established to prevent this from happening in the future.
It takes time effort and courage by some willing to do so, but it will happen. We do not suffer with entrenched fools like the UK's archbishop.
Other Comments by phopas
30. Comment #127511 by delta2echo on February 15, 2008 at 11:03 am
Quetzalcoatl said:I can't help but be worried about religious fundamentalism growing within the most powerful military in the world. This is perhaps a consequence of 8 years of the US having a government dominated by religion in a way that no other US government has ever been.
I LIVE in America... and to be honest Im scared shitless!
Other Comments by delta2echo
31. Comment #127514 by al-rawandi on February 15, 2008 at 11:06 am
Prankster,
I worry more about an increasingly powerful government in my life. Add religion to that equation and you get something very ugly.
The British have done some nast nasty things, even in my lifetime. Like starting a war of the Falkland Islands. I mean, who gives a shit about those sheep infested islands.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
32. Comment #127518 by Quetzalcoatl on February 15, 2008 at 11:12 am
al-rawandi-
didn't the military dictatorship government of ARGENTINA invade? And the Falklands is part of Britain (I'm not sure whether it's a protectorate or what), and its people want to remain that way. Should Britain have ignored that wish?
Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
33. Comment #127521 by Prankster on February 15, 2008 at 11:18 am
Well I was 16 at the time of the Falkland conflict-I won't call it war -it wasn'tHowever the Argentinians did invade a British outpost ( Yeah I know we could have picked a better place-bit more sun and sand and a few palm trees wouldn't have gone amiss-but I digress) and our right wing government decided to get tough with the invaders-result? A ship heading the wrong way (away from the combat zone) is sunk and a couple of hundred British soldiers die, as you rightly say for sheep infested islands
My government whatever it is at the time, conservative or mock-socialist, has done and will continue to do questionable things but I do agree that a powerful religious government will be a scary prospect for all concerned (neutral or not eh Hourglass?)
Other Comments by Prankster
34. Comment #127525 by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy on February 15, 2008 at 11:23 am
"I mean, who gives a shit about those sheep infested islands."Maybe the people who live in those sheep infested islands? Oh, and the penguins as well.
Other Comments by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy
35. Comment #127527 by Quetzalcoatl on February 15, 2008 at 11:24 am
Prankster-
if you're talking about the ship I think you're talking about, the commander of it admitted later that they were going to swing back into the disputed zone later anyway.
Sheep-infested they may be, but it's still British land, occupied by British citizens. Doesn't matter how far away they are.
I was -1 at the time.
Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
36. Comment #127535 by MaxD on February 15, 2008 at 11:35 am
I'm not familiar with the Falkland Islands conflict, but if the Argentinians did indeed invade British soil then I think Britain was obligated to respond with force. No pussy-footing around. No being a great soppy bed-wetter. No negotiations, just, "Get the fuck off our penguin ladden islands you twits." The talking can come afterwards or not. But once invaded, I think you just have to knuckle-the-fuck-up. Other Comments by MaxD
37. Comment #127539 by MaxD on February 15, 2008 at 11:39 am
Okay, back-ground on the Falkland conflict from wikipedia.
The war was triggered by the occupation of South Georgia by Argentina on 19 March 1982 followed by the occupation of the Falklands, and ended when Argentina surrendered on 14 June 1982. War was not actually declared by either side. The initial invasion was considered by Argentina as the re-occupation of its own territory, and by Britain as an invasion of a British overseas territory, and the most recent invasion of British territory by a foreign power.
In the period leading up to the war, Argentina was in the midst of a devastating economic crisis and large-scale civil unrest against the military junta that had been governing the country since 1976.[2] The Argentine military government, headed by General Leopoldo Galtieri, sought to maintain power by diverting public attention playing off long-standing feelings of the Argentines towards the islands,[3] although they never thought that the United Kingdom would respond militarily.[4] The ongoing tension between the two countries over the islands increased on 19 March when a group of hired Argentinian scrap metal merchants raised their flag at South Georgia, an act that would later be seen as the first offensive action in the war. The Argentine Military Junta, suspecting that the UK would reinforce its South Atlantic Forces,[5] ordered the invasion of the Falkland Islands to be brought forward to 2 April.
Word of the invasion first reached Britain via ham radio.[6] Britain was initially taken by surprise by the Argentine attack on the South Atlantic islands, despite repeated warnings by Royal Navy captain Nicholas Barker and others. Barker believed that the intention expressed in Defence Secretary John Nott's 1981 review to withdraw his ship HMS Endurance, Britain's only naval presence in the South Atlantic, sent a signal to the Argentinians that Britain was unwilling, and would soon be unable, to defend her territories and subjects in the Falklands.[7][8] Britain launched a naval task force to engage the Argentine Navy and Air Force, and retake the islands by amphibious assault. After combat resulting in 258 British and 649 Argentine deaths, the British eventually prevailed and the islands remained under British control. However, as of 2007 [9] and as it has since the 19th century, Argentina shows no sign of relinquishing its claim. Indeed, the claim remains in the Argentine constitution after its reformation in 1994.[10]
The political effects of the war were strong in both countries. A wave of patriotic sentiment swept through both: the Argentine loss prompted even larger protests against the military government, which hastened its downfall; in the United Kingdom, the government of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher was bolstered. It helped Thatcher's government to victory in the 1983 general election, which prior to the war was seen as by no means certain. The war has played an important role in the culture of both countries, and has been the subject of several books, films, and songs. However, it is not seen as a truly major event of either military or 20th century history because of the low number of casualties on both sides and the small size and limited economic importance of the disputed areas. The cultural and political weight of the conflict has had less effect on the British public than on that of Argentina, where the war is still a topic of discussion.[11]
So, Al was the UK in the wrong?
Other Comments by MaxD
38. Comment #127543 by sidfaiwu on February 15, 2008 at 11:45 am
Let's see:1. Unquestioning acceptance of authority
2. Suspension of free thought
3. Attempt at creating uniform thoughts
4. Having one's goals and purpose set by others
5. Belonging to a new 'family'
Is anyone surprised that fundamentalism is flourishing in the military?
I'm not too worried, though. This is nothing new. 'God and Country' have gone hand-and-hand in the US ever since the Cold War. Also, America doesn't have a history of military coups, unlike most theocracies. Of course, there always could be a first time...
Other Comments by sidfaiwu
39. Comment #127548 by Ian Bamlett on February 15, 2008 at 11:50 am
Oh, who cares what a bunch of grunts in the infantry do or believe.
**DO NOT** make the mistake of thinking that these people are indicative of all the US Military. If this was happening on US stategic subs I'd be worried - a bunch of fundies riding around in nuclear powered subs with enough nukes to wipe out half the planets cities; yes that would be a problem. But the navy and airforce attract a higher caliber of candidates. Those with their fingers on the triggers of the really scary stuff simply aren't these people.
The fuck tards seem to join the marines/army infantry.
(Apologies to the minority of marines smart enough to be on this site - semper fi)
Other Comments by Ian Bamlett
40. Comment #127549 by al-rawandi on February 15, 2008 at 11:51 am
Ian,
Fucktard.
It's one word. FYI
Other Comments by al-rawandi
41. Comment #127554 by murphyjd on February 15, 2008 at 11:59 am
Years and years of religious commandment at our military helms has unfortunately led to this... Other Comments by murphyjd
42. Comment #127555 by Ian Bamlett on February 15, 2008 at 11:59 am
al-rawandi
Sorry Al,
I admit I did steal it off you and should have at least had the decency to get it right.
:-)
Other Comments by Ian Bamlett
43. Comment #127560 by Lu Castro on February 15, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Fister? I just met her! Other Comments by Lu Castro
44. Comment #127563 by Steven Mading on February 15, 2008 at 12:21 pm
This practice is undeniably illegal under the US constitution. Military officers are granted a lot of authority to give orders to their subordinates, much more so than for a typical civilian boss/employee relationship. That authority comes from the U.S. Government. As such, a military officer in the U.S. Armed Forces must never use that authority to coerce their subordinates into any religion whatsoever. PERIOD.BUT, Doing something about that means having to convince the supreme court - nine lifetime appointees - of the obvious truth of that.
And that's damned near impossible these days.
Deciding who gets to appoint the next few supreme court judges is a far more important consequence of the upcoming election than anything else the next president does. These 9 people have been effectively forming an impenetrable firewall between the rules of the U.S.A. on paper and the what the U.S.A. actually practices for real. So much of the dishonest bull that the presidency is getting away with can be traced back to this problem. In practice the law doesn't actually mean what it says - it merely means what these 9 people are willing to lie and CLAIM it says.
Other Comments by Steven Mading
45. Comment #127567 by HourglassMemory on February 15, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Portugal!I live in Portugal!
I'm sorry, I only checked the site now...
Other Comments by HourglassMemory
46. Comment #127571 by kaiserkriss on February 15, 2008 at 12:30 pm
"atheists and FREETHINKERS"... in the military. That's an oxymoron if ever I heard one.
It would seem prudent in light of these happenings, each and every person enlisted in the military, and especially potential officers should be forced to attend a four week course on civil rights, and in this case the US constitution.
This events are EXACTLY the same precursors to what happened in Germany in 1933. By the time civilians care, it is too late, and everybody not conforming is regarded as a non patriot... jcw
Other Comments by kaiserkriss
47. Comment #127584 by Veronique on February 15, 2008 at 12:50 pm
My personal practice is to check on posters' locations prior to making a comment and making assumptions and then basing spurious arguments on those assumptions.So, yes Hourglass, I was aware that you were resident in Portugal.
Cheers
V
Other Comments by Veronique
48. Comment #127587 by Quetzalcoatl on February 15, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Hey Veronique, how are you keeping these days? Any new slogans on the old board? Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
49. Comment #127598 by cluffy on February 15, 2008 at 1:02 pm
I agree that such blatant religious bullying has much to do with the fundie tone of the current administration but I fear it will continue under Obama/Clinton...perhaps even increase as a conservative/military backlash to what Fister and co. will perceive as the dangerous "secularisation" of America.Other Comments by cluffy
50. Comment #127615 by Veronique on February 15, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Hi QuetzThe rain has been washing the slogans off:-(. Love the rain though:-)
How about this: Insight, untested and unsupported, is an insufficient guarantee of truth. Bertie Russell.
Cheers
V
Other Comments by Veronique
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by Richard Dawkins
Unweaving the Rainbow
by Richard Dawkins
1. Comment #127392 by Quetzalcoatl on February 15, 2008 at 8:24 am
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