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Saturday, February 16, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document The Search for Truth, God and Braver Scientists in 'Expelled'

by Dan Whipple, Colorado Confidential

I'm sure most readers are tired of hearing about Expelled, but this was just too revealing to pass up.

Also see PZ Myers' blog post on this:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/02/hypocrisy_from_the_expelled_gu.php

Reposted from:
http://www.coloradoconfidential.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=3463

Ben Stein and the producers of Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed held a press conference. But hardly any questions were allowed.

Over the past couple thousand years, a lot of people have tried to establish convincing rational proofs of God.

In Summa Theologica, for instance, written between 1265 and 1274, Thomas Aquinas produced five arguments for the existence of God, one of which was the "argument of design." Aquinas said that an intelligent being whom we call God guides natural bodies.

19th century theologian William Paley in 1802 argued that if you found a watch on the ground, you'd be likely to posit a watchmaker. If you find yourself in the midst of a universe far more complex than a watch, you'd likely posit a Designer God. Q.E.D.

German Catholic theologian Hans Küng wrote a lengthy book titled Does God Exist?, a question he answered in the affirmative. "Some time ago," Küng wrote in 1978, "an English Nobel prizewinner is supposed to have answered the question whether he believed in God: 'Of course not. I am a scientist.' This book is sustained by the hope that a new age is dawning when the very opposite answer will be given: 'Of course. I am a scientist.'"

Ben Stein is not satisfied with these efforts. Stein, best known as the boring economics teacher in the movie Ferris Bueller's Day Off, and his cohorts in the movie trade have felt it necessary to rush to God's defense against the assaults of science in the film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.

I wrote a review of Expelled on this site in December. The producers inadvertently invited us to a screening of it. As I said at the time, they were kind enough to invite me, so I feel bad about disliking it so much.

They disliked my review. So much that they now ask people who watch the film to sign nondisclosure agreements before they see it. (Expelled won't be officially released until April.) So much, that they put 72 links of commentary on their website, but omit my review, the only one of the 72 who had actually seen the movie. I am crushed, I tell you. Crushed.

Roger Moore, a reviewer for the Orlando Sentinel was also inadvertently invited to a screening, where he refused to sign one of these nondisclosure agreements, bless his heart. You can read what Moore thought of the movie here.

I thought the Expelled crowd was done with me, but lo! I received an email invitation to a telephone press conference with Stein and the producers in late January.

Now if Expelled can be said to have a theme, it is that all sorts of ideas should be batted around the ballfield of science and theology, that there should be freedom of expression. I was jazzed. I'd get to ask my questions. It would be American intellectual combat at its most naked. As producer Walt Ruloff put it:

"What we're really asking for is freedom of speech, and allowing science, and students, people in applied or theoretical research to have the freedom to go where they need to go and as the questions."


This makes it ironic, at least, that they expected the Orlando Sentinel to sign a nondisclosure agreement.

But there are limits. Let's face it. We all have them. Freedom of expression is unseemly at an Expelled press conference. There was no give-and-take, no open marketplace of ideas, in fact, scarcely any questions at all. Ruloff and Stein batted one softball after another out of the park from those posed by Paul Lauer, a representative of the film's public relations firm. Questions from non-employees had to be submitted by email. Lauer (or somebody at his firm) screened them.

I'm not sure whether Thomas Aquinas handled media inquiries this way. I'll have my people get back to your people on that.

The questions that made it through the screening were from: Listen Up TV, a Christian program; the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, the policy arm of the Southern Baptist Convention; Focus on the Family; and the Colorado Catholic Herald. Four outside questions in 50 minutes of press conference, only two of which can be described as "press."

I've participated in a lot of press conferences in my thirty years as a journalist. I once bumped into President Gerald Ford on the front lawn of the White House. I had a question for him, which he politely answered. I went to a press conference by John Lennon and Yoko Ono, who took all of our questions and hung around afterward to talk with me. I've had press conference questions answered by physicists Hans Bethe and Edward Teller, "father of the hydrogen bomb"; by Harvard biologist E.O. Wilson; by John Wayne; by U.S, Secretary of Defense Richard Cheney; by U.S. Sens. Alan Simpson, Craig Thomas, John Kerry, Malcolm Wallop and Gary Hart, and by lots and lots of other public figures whose time I've wasted. Some of my questions were argumentative, but all were thoroughly - if sometimes equally argumentatively -- answered.

Until I got to Ben Stein. Though calling for the rough-and-tumble of openness and debate, Stein didn't have time for questions.

In my earlier review, I dealt with Expelled as a failed and dull attack on evolution. But this "press conference" convinced me that not only is Expelled and the intellectual movement behind it hypocritical in its supposed defense of "freedom of expression," it's an attack on the entire superstructure of science and technology that has created the modern world. Expelled is anti-rational.

To quote from the media extravaganza (all the quotes that follow are from the Expelled staff's transcript of the phone call):

Paul Lauer: You mentioned that Darwinism appears to be lacking on certain fronts. From your research, and your travels, and interviews with many different scientists, what are some of the areas that scientists are, perhaps, increasingly saying are problematic with the theory of, Darwin's Theory of Evolution?

Ben Stein:Well, just a couple of them, I've already hit one is: Where did life come from? Second one is: How did the cell get so complex? Third one, which I think is overwhelming, and just sort of blows the whole theory of Random Mutation out of the water, is, at least, let me say, raises big questions, that is. Assuming it all did happen by Random Mutation and Natural Selection, where did the laws of gravity come from. Where did the laws of thermodynamics come from? Where did the laws of motion and, of heat come from? Where, I guess that's the same as thermodynamics. Where did all these laws, that make it possible for the universe to function, where did they all come from? Why isn't all just chaos and everything collapsing in on itself and killing everything? I think that`s where the universe works. Who created these perfect laws, that keeps the planet in motion, keeps the blood pumping through our bodies? So, I think, all these are giant questions that need answers.


Giant questions, indeed. However, only one of them -- the complexity of the cell -- has anything to do with Darwinism or evolution. The others are very interesting questions, especially why the conditions of the universe seem to be so finely attuned to human existence. They are active and important areas of research across many fields, primarily physics. But evolutionary theory does not argue that the laws of gravity arose from natural selection, or that natural selection keeps the planets in motion. Stein is getting his Ferris confused with his Bueller.

Except for the evolutionary theorists, atheists and other Darwinists appearing in Expelled all of whom answered questions forthrightly, Stein and company seem to have interviewed an exceptionally cowardly crop of scientists. Here's what producer Walt Ruloff had to say:

Paul Lauer: Sure. Walt, there was some out there who wanted to speak on this issue but they were afraid to show their identity. Could you tell us a little bit about that?

Walt Ruloff: Yeah, we interviewed many, many, many scientists, who, first of all, we talked to hundreds and hundreds of scientists who wouldn't even talk - wouldn't even go on camera, even if we assured them that we were going to black them out. So, the ones that finally did, there were dozens of scientists that we were able to do that with. The reason why they need to do that is because if they stray from the current orthodoxy, if they stray from a Darwinian position, and you'll see this in the movie, these people have been called in to their superiors' office and have lost their jobs, or have been denied tenure, or have been so discredited by the powers that be, that their future, and their hopes and dreams of being a scientist have been squashed, and so, this is a real problem, as we've discussed.


I've been interviewing scientists nearly every day for twenty years. Don't get me started. I have a lot of complaints about them. But refusing to defend their research isn't one. Most of the time, you can't get 'em to shut up. They are so eager to promote their latest hypothesis that I still don't know whether it's safe to drink coffee or not. The concept of "hundreds and hundreds of scientists" afraid to talk about their favorite idea is so unlike real life that I have to question - how to put this politely? - Ruloff's support for this assertion. But then I haven't talked to every scientist in the world. Maybe I just missed these hundreds and hundreds.

In my experience, scientists are forthright, diligent and feverishly eager to promote their ideas. There is no greater scientific laurel to be gained than to overturn the reigning paradigm. I get periodic emails from a wonderful man, a respected nuclear chemist, who has a groundbreaking idea about the makeup of the sun. He thinks it's a ball of iron. The world's leading solar physicist described these ideas to me as "crackpot science." Does this make my nuclear chemist shy of publicity? Does it make him quake in the shadows and hide from the cameras? Is he so terrified of the solar physics establishment that he can't eat his morning cereal? No. He sends out another blanket email with dense formulae, along with a polite note. But the sun remains un-ironed.

Evidence that evolutionary theory was wrong would rock the world of biology, permanently assuring the immortality of the discoverer, putting him or her in the pantheon of Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Darwin and Einstein.

And that wouldn't be even an ankle tattoo on the guy who discovers the existence of God. Thomas Aquinas would be spinning in his grave.

The key word here, though, is "evidence." Even Aquinas knew that arguments aren't proof. Simply finding Darwinism inconvenient is not sufficient grounds for rejection. So what is it that's keeping these quivering aspens from appearing on camera? Fear of funding? No. Lack of evidence. You'd be scared too, going into a battle of wits unarmed.

I hate to say this, Walt Ruloff and Ben Stein having spent a lot of money to make this movie and all, but it seems to me more likely that these frightened scientists just don't exist. I'm calling "Bullshit."

So I sent a question to the Expelled people during their media extravaganza in the naïve assumption that it would be like every other press conference I've been invited to participate in over the past thirty years.

And this was my question:

The National Academy of Sciences recently issued a report saying that "The rapid advances now being made in the life sciences and in medicine rest on principles derived from an understanding of evolution." The report cites successes in combating the SARS virus, development of drought and pest resistant crops, and the creation of enzymes to make corn-based ethanol, as recent developments to which evolutionary theory was indispensable. If evolution inspires as much evil as your film argues that it does, should we refuse to use these technologies until they can be replicated by an intelligent-design-based research program?

Comments 1 - 42 of 42 |

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1. Comment #128176 by John Done on February 16, 2008 at 12:13 pm

Intelligent Design cannot have any applications, as it makes no predictions on anything. It merely nullifies the applications of evolutionary theory and says "the foundation of the universe a being unlike anything conceivable" which effectively nullifies all science and rationality. No basis of reality could be found in such a world. You'd just have to not think about it and essentially let the world around you run as it would without making any sense of it or interacting with it. And that's madness.

Ben Stein really hasn't a clue what he's talking about, and he doesn't seem to much care. All of this secrecy will only cement his popularity amingst the hardcore creationist crowd, and exclusive group which can only expand with the children it indoctrinates. The film will undoubtedly alienate everyone else willing to look at the evidence, and inspire suspicion in those not yet analyzing their own worldviews rationally. No converts, no groundbreaking revelations, just conflict and humiliation.

This film should not be taken seriously. However, its adherents should, as that's the only way to adequately address the issues that stimulate these conflicts between heartfelt beliefs and fact-finding rationality.

Other Comments by John Done

2. Comment #128180 by Nails on February 16, 2008 at 12:22 pm

 avatarI am in two minds as to whether I want to see this, I'd hate to be the first one to walk out after a few minutes.

Maybe I'll get a pirate DVD and donate the entrance fee for my family to the AHA campaign.

Is that like doing the wrong thing for the right reasons?

Other Comments by Nails

3. Comment #128181 by Glen Davidson on February 16, 2008 at 12:23 pm

Yes, they also censor their blog. I'm linking below to an instance I documented, where someone called "javascript" had maligned what I had written with out-of-context quotemines and malicious libel, and I was not allowed to demonstrate how javascript was dishonest:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/11/carnivalia_and_an_open_thread_85.php#comment-625774

It might be hard to understand just what's going on there, but the important issue is that I was not allowed to respond to comment #33 of Ben Stein's blog post of Oct. 31, 2007, which has the title of "Darwinism: The Imperialism of Biology."

At that point I quit commenting on their blog (yesterday I finally put a link in the comments, since I'd lose little if they didn't post it, which they did), because if javascript is allowed to malign dishonestly quotemine while I'm not allowed merely to show how dishonest he is, there can be no honest discussion (which the Expelled people hypocritically claims to desire).

Just like Whipple, I'm rather amazed at how they want to claim suppression, when they're busy censoring out whatever they don't like.

Glen Davidson
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

Other Comments by Glen Davidson

4. Comment #128184 by Elles on February 16, 2008 at 12:30 pm

 avatarI started cackling violently at the Ben Stein quote. I might go see this film just for comic relief.

Other Comments by Elles

5. Comment #128185 by Nails on February 16, 2008 at 12:31 pm

 avatarBut the real problem with ID is that they claim conspiracy and get automatic support from the gullable and ignorant majority.

And why do they never provide a framework which improves medicine and health, and scientific research? (real research, not nursery school stuff).

After all, has ID ever helped pinpoint the origin and lead to a cure for a genetic illness?

Still waiting for an answer on that one...

So I'll take it as a no then.

So Ben, on second thoughts, you can stick the film up your arse.
I'd rather watch Mary Poppins.

Other Comments by Nails

6. Comment #128189 by SPS on February 16, 2008 at 12:40 pm

How do you get answers? By searching for them.
How do you not find answers? By thinking you already have them.
ID is not about finding answers, therefore it never was and never will be science, and adds exactly nothing to human endeavor, when it's not busy taking away from it.

Other Comments by SPS

7. Comment #128192 by righton on February 16, 2008 at 12:56 pm

This Expelled movie might turn out to be a very good thing.

It will get a lot of press and hopefully it will also get the far superior counter arguments out to the general public.

I cant wait for it to come out because it will promote the discussion of this topic. I will be able to tell a lot of people the vast shortcomings of ID. Without this movie it is a hard subject to bring up in a conversation.

Other Comments by righton

8. Comment #128194 by Double Bass Atheist on February 16, 2008 at 1:05 pm

 avatar
Stein is getting his Ferris confused with his Bueller

Priceless! I'm gonna have to remember that one!

Nails-
But the real problem with ID is that they claim conspiracy and get automatic support from the gullible and ignorant majority.

That is spot on!
I've recently found myself in an email debate with a young faith head. Just like Ben Stein, he jumps between evolution, cosmology, abiogenesis, and physics; all while attacking "evolution". Of course, he does not understanding the first thing about ANY of these subjects, or even their names! This is typical of the religious, evolution-denying mind. Their understanding of science is so poor that they actually think all these diverse subjects are all evolutionary biology.
The claims that evolution has been "thoroughly discredited" and that "most scientists don't believe in evolution any more. They're just afraid to say so" have come up in our debate. While hearing this is very typical in any debate with the pious, wait until he sees this movie!
It's only going to confirm the delusion of an already misinformed individual, and the general populous as well.

We have our work cut out for us people!

Other Comments by Double Bass Atheist

9. Comment #128196 by Adam Morrison on February 16, 2008 at 1:07 pm

 avatarGreat article. I've been making the argument that if someone could come up with a valid alternative to evolution he/she would be immortalized in science. Hell if I could come up with a better explanation that was supported by evidence I would.

Fact of the matter is there isn't a better theory. Intelligent Design is, at its best, lazy science (ohh this is too complicated... queue god!) and at its worst an barely concealed attempt for poofists to gain control of the education system.

Ben Stein's quote displayed a man who has no familiarity with the theory of natural selection. About the only thing he's convinced me of is that he's a vacuous twit.

Other Comments by Adam Morrison

10. Comment #128197 by Rational_G on February 16, 2008 at 1:07 pm

 avatarBen Stein = pompous ignorant fool.

Other Comments by Rational_G

11. Comment #128200 by umkomasia on February 16, 2008 at 1:24 pm

What does it say about our culture that a minor B-list celebrity thinks he can challenge the modern science of evolution, and that at least some fools think enough of his views to make a movie out of it? I'm less concerned about Ben Stein being a "pompous ignorant fool" as #128197 points out, than I am in the fact that he seems to have a certain authority with many people.

Other Comments by umkomasia

12. Comment #128201 by Neiman on February 16, 2008 at 1:32 pm

One thing to keep in mind is that any group with little to no evidence to stand on will attempt to enlist "celebrities" to further their cause; the fact that ID/creationists can only get someone like Stein, who barely rates as B-List these days, to pimp their message says a lot about how desperate they have become.

Other Comments by Neiman

13. Comment #128211 by Nails on February 16, 2008 at 2:23 pm

 avatar8. Comment #128194 by Double Bass Atheist on February 16, 2008 at 1:05 pm
I've recently found myself in an email debate with a young faith head. Just like Ben Stein, he jumps between evolution, cosmology, abiogenesis, and physics; all while attacking "evolution". Of course, he does not understanding the first thing about ANY of these subjects, or even their names! This is typical of the religious, evolution-denying mind. Their understanding of science is so poor that they actually think all these diverse subjects are all evolutionary biology.
The claims that evolution has been "thoroughly discredited" and that "most scientists don't believe in evolution any more. They're just afraid to say so" have come up in our debate. While hearing this is very typical in any debate with the pious, wait until he sees this movie!
It's only going to confirm the delusion of an already misinformed individual, and the general populous as well.

We have our work cut out for us people!

It is indeed a big problem, I have experienced this myself when debating people of religious persuasion. I couldn't believe this kind of attitude actually existed until I got out and began to discuss the issue.
Now I understand why RD and others spreading the words of reason have to repeat themselves so many times.
After all, why would you not trust a school teacher or a priest etc. - they are portrayed as upstanding memebers of the community and most people accept argument from authority all too easily.
The sad thing is, there are many who walk, eat and work amongst us (and can vote - another problem in the making) who not only believe this type of crap but actively seek out evidence to support their delusion - and they find what they are looking for.
Of course, it's not really evidence - more an analogy or straw-man - but they think its real.

Other Comments by Nails

14. Comment #128216 by wonderer* on February 16, 2008 at 2:49 pm

4. Comment #128184 by Elles on February 16, 2008 at 12:30 pm

I started cackling violently at the Ben Stein quote. I might go see this film just for comic relief.


I think it could be a good thing for intelligent people to go to this movie and laugh loudly as appropriate.

Other Comments by wonderer*

15. Comment #128219 by Noodly on February 16, 2008 at 2:55 pm

 avatarWhen we look back on this we'll see that Expelled was repelled because it smelled.

Other Comments by Noodly

16. Comment #128223 by jbacsa on February 16, 2008 at 3:07 pm

The comment by user Nails about so called faith-heads being ingnorant of science can be reversed, the comments by atheists on this website demonstrates ignorance of religious experience which most humans on this planet seem to share and be aware. It also seems to me that a notable exception are a wealthy, privileged minority who have no use for God.

Other Comments by jbacsa

17. Comment #128224 by Partisan on February 16, 2008 at 3:08 pm

 avatarWell...this is bollocks

Other Comments by Partisan

18. Comment #128233 by Mark Smith on February 16, 2008 at 3:28 pm

jbacsa
The comment by user Nails about so called faith-heads being ingnorant of science can be reversed, the comments by atheists on this website demonstrates ignorance of religious experience which most humans on this planet seem to share and be aware.

In fact a great many of us have plenty of firsthand knowledge of religious experience. I, for one, spent a number of years as a strongly-committed Christian. You should not make the mistake of confusing negative opinions about religion for a lack of experience of it.

Other Comments by Mark Smith

19. Comment #128244 by Mark Smith on February 16, 2008 at 3:37 pm

jbacsa
It also seems to me that a notable exception are a wealthy, privileged minority who have no use for God.

Even if you are right, what is your point?

(I don't think you are right by the way - take a look at wealthy America, for example)

Other Comments by Mark Smith

20. Comment #128256 by Sally Luxmoore on February 16, 2008 at 4:08 pm

 avatarWell, if the film is anything like as boring as the clip shown in Roger Moore's review, no-one has anything to worry about.
I nearly fell asleep!

Other Comments by Sally Luxmoore

21. Comment #128279 by alan baylis on February 16, 2008 at 4:53 pm

The National Academy of Sciences recently issued a report saying that "The rapid advances now being made in the life sciences and in medicine rest on principles derived from an understanding of evolution." The report cites successes in combating the SARS virus, development of drought and pest resistant crops, and the creation of enzymes to make corn-based ethanol, as recent developments to which evolutionary theory was indispensable

This is undoubtedly true. It seems that the huge corporations have a large vested interest in REAL evolutionary science being taught in schools and universities in the USA. Therefore, why don’t they use their political clout and some of their vast resources in countering all this ID nonsense.

Other Comments by alan baylis

22. Comment #128297 by quill on February 16, 2008 at 5:33 pm

 avatarjbasca,

I'd also like to mention that I too was once a born-again, Bible-believing, Spirit-feeling, tract-reading, youth-group going, Christian-rock-concert-attending and yes, evolution-denying Methodist. I used to go onto religious websites and "warn" atheists that they were going to Hell for not believing in God. I read my New International Version cover to cover three times before it dawned on me that my god never existed in the first place. Have you even read it once?

In my opinion, atheists tend to be more knowledgable about religious matters than Christians are. Most of us in America come from religious upbringings and the thing about losing your faith is that, when you do, you make it a point to read every argument for the existence of God you possibly can in order to convince yourself that your religious views are correct.

But those arguments, as you know, don't work. There is no evidence for any god, and the more you read on the subject, the more you understand that there never has been.

On another note, I'd like to congratulate Dan Whipple for having the patience to carefully articulate what's wrong with Ben Stein's movie. Too often we atheists just tend to shake our heads and sigh at the stupidity of these people, rather than engaging in discourse with them, and that's really an advantage they have over us.

Other Comments by quill

23. Comment #128381 by Teratornis on February 16, 2008 at 10:08 pm

 avatarIn reply to comment #128279 by alan baylis:

It seems that the huge corporations have a large vested interest in REAL evolutionary science being taught in schools and universities in the USA. Therefore, why don’t they use their political clout and some of their vast resources in countering all this ID nonsense.


Probably because only a tiny handful of employees in a company like Archer Daniels Midland are in a position to actually apply evolutionary theory. As long as American universities churn out a few hundred or maybe a few thousand Ph.D.s per year in various scientific fields, everybody else in the company, let alone the country can believe the Earth is flat for all the difference it makes.

Another factor might be that something like half of the scientists in America weren't born in America. Some of them came from cultures that are probably even more scientifically backward than the United States, but it doesn't matter once they get to university. They only have to work hard and be smart.

The suits who run the company probably don't understand how the scientists do their jobs anyway.

The vast majority of jobs involve mostly routine work. Only a very few people are actually advancing some frontier of knowledge that requires them to understand neo-Darwinian theory.

That may change somewhat depending on how medicine and biotechnology develop. Eventually we might have everyday applications of technology that directly illustrate Darwinian principles. If that happens, then Darwinism might have an everyday impact similar to, say, aerodynamics. Most people don't understand aerodynamics, but they are aware that airplanes are as heavy as houses and yet can fly.

Other Comments by Teratornis

24. Comment #128399 by Skep on February 16, 2008 at 11:38 pm

The Fine Tuning Argument? Oh, please. Will Professor Stein now argue that noses were made to have spectacles and thus we have spectacles? Voltaire's Candide eviscerated the fine tuning argument in 1759.

Master Pangloss taught the metaphysico-theologo-cosmolonigology. He could prove to admiration that there is no effect without a cause; and, that in this best of all possible worlds, the Baron's castle was the most magnificent of all castles, and My Lady the best of all possible baronesses.

"It is demonstrable," said he, "that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end. Observe, for instance, the nose is formed for spectacles, therefore we wear spectacles. The legs are visibly designed for stockings, accordingly we wear stockings. Stones were made to be hewn and to construct castles, therefore My Lord has a magnificent castle; for the greatest baron in the province ought to be the best lodged. Swine were intended to be eaten, therefore we eat pork all the year round: and they, who assert that everything is right, do not express themselves correctly; they should say that everything is best."


via http://www.literature.org/authors/voltaire/candide/chapter-01.html

The whole fine tuning argument is silly. It is like asking a winning lottery ticket why the rules of the universe were set up expressly to allow for it's winning numbers to be drawn in spite of the odds against. What ever life formed in the universe was naturally going to be based on the laws of that universe, not the other way around, though Dr. Pangloss Stein would have you think otherwise.

Other Comments by Skep

25. Comment #128433 by Stafford Gordon on February 17, 2008 at 2:16 am

"How did the cell get so complex?" This is a question which could only be posed by someone who has not read Darwin; or, if they have done so have not understood the central idea from which all else has since flowed.

Other Comments by Stafford Gordon

26. Comment #128435 by Titus on February 17, 2008 at 2:21 am

Ok then, if no-one else is going to do it, it'll have to be me.

Ben Stein - fuckwit

That's better! :-)

Other Comments by Titus

27. Comment #128451 by the great teapot on February 17, 2008 at 3:30 am

What would Intelligent design research exactly consist of.
Apart from trying to disprove other peoples theories, what positive research might they be doing?

Other Comments by the great teapot

28. Comment #128466 by rod-the-farmer on February 17, 2008 at 4:21 am

 avatarAs for jbacsa in comment #128223, presumably describing atheists

a notable exception are a wealthy, privileged minority who have no use for God.

Gee, I have no use for god, but I am certainly not wealthy. Privileged ? I live on a nice piece of land, way out in the country, with beautiful sunrises almost every day. Does that make me privileged ? Yeah, I guess. But like the actress who won an award said, "god had nothing to do with it !"

I found a nice picture of a recent sunrise I took, but it is posted in such a way as to identify me rather closely. Not quite sure I am ready to come out that far. I am working up to it. My photo is really me, tho'.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

29. Comment #128470 by Steve Zara on February 17, 2008 at 4:32 am

The comment by user Nails about so called faith-heads being ingnorant of science can be reversed, the comments by atheists on this website demonstrates ignorance of religious experience which most humans on this planet seem to share and be aware.


It is those who have the religious experience who are ignorant. They don't understand what is happening in their own minds. They assume it is as a result of something external to their minds and spiritual.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

30. Comment #128471 by rod-the-farmer on February 17, 2008 at 4:34 am

 avatarOne other thing I have not seen mentioned in any stories about "Expelled". Just where will it be shown ? Somehow I can't see the regular, commercial movie theatres showing this. It does not sound like it has a lot of general appeal. Of course, it would give us all some hope, if a few theatres DID show it, to a complete lack of interest, and the word got out it was a dud. Perhaps someone in that industry can tell us how many tickets a movie has to sell to be held over ? Even the mini theatres that seem to be so popular in N. America must have a minimum attendance figure. And if a cinema agrees to rent it, and it turns out to be a total dud, can they just replace it with another film without breaking any contract provisions ? Has anyone among the regular readers heard of a theatre being approached to rent this turkey when it becomes available ? Does such an approach come through the regular, automatic channels, or is this going to be a more manual sales pitch ? What sort of fee do they charge ? I stand ready to be educated.....

I am reminded of an interchange between Winston Churchill and George Bernard Shaw. Apparently Shaw once sent a note to Churchill that his new play was opening on Friday, and he had left two tickets for Churchill, saying, "Bring a friend, if you have one." Churchill responded that he was unable to come to the opening night, "but will come the next night, if you have one."

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

31. Comment #128491 by Geoff on February 17, 2008 at 7:13 am

 avatarOff topic: Steve Zara, sent you a PM re your blog.

Other Comments by Geoff

32. Comment #128493 by Steve Zara on February 17, 2008 at 7:27 am

Thanks... it is amazing what can get past the proof reading efforts of several people.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

33. Comment #128574 by D'Arcy on February 17, 2008 at 12:13 pm

 avatarAs usual with these religios we get intelligent sounding questions "how did the cell get to be so complicated?", posed as unanswerables. If it can't be answered therefore seek divine explanation. Same for origin of life. Same for "fine tuning" of nature's constants. Same for Earth orbiting in the "Goldilocks zone" around the sun(i.e. not too hot nor too cold).

It really is lazy thinking to suppose that answers can never be given, but then a fool can ask more questions in 5 minutes than a wise man can answer in 7 years (lifetime?).

The annoying thing is that people like Stein, if they actually believed what they are saying, face eternal punishment for lying about evolution. I suspect they don't actually believe at all but are just cynically playing the "religion" card.

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34. Comment #128576 by Geoff on February 17, 2008 at 12:16 pm

 avatarSteve, please tell me this was deliberate...


proof reasing


;)

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35. Comment #128577 by Steve Zara on February 17, 2008 at 12:16 pm

Noooooooooooooooooooo

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36. Comment #128617 by Duff on February 17, 2008 at 12:54 pm

This is simply another battle between science and religion. Please remind me if science has ever lost one of these battles from Prothagoras to Ptolemy; from Galileo to Newton to Einstein. We should all encourage this kind of a fight because the religionists are, in the end, going to look stupid.

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37. Comment #128662 by Skep on February 17, 2008 at 2:16 pm

@ Duff

Science looses these battles all the time because they are decided by mobs rather than science. 20 percent of Americans surveyed think the sun revolves around the earth. A super majority of people in the US believe in a personal god--i.e., science has already lost the battle in the US.

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38. Comment #128744 by dlitt on February 17, 2008 at 9:47 pm

 avatar
Comment #128223 by jbacsa on February 16, 2008 at 3:07 pm
[edit] It also seems to me that a notable exception are a wealthy, privileged minority who have no use for God.
It is unfortunate that the 'privileged minority' can better afford the 'higher education' that gives them a better understanding of science and the requirement of some evidence to support a theory. It isn't about not having a "use for God," it is about a lack of evidence to support a God hypothesis or more bluntly, not having a use for nonsense.

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39. Comment #128816 by Tyler Durden on February 18, 2008 at 2:47 am

 avatarComment #128662 by Skep:
science has already lost the battle in the US.
Skep, no need to be so pessimistic, people's personal opinions about god does not negate the work of science. Science won in the Dover trial, and science will win again should it ever go to the courts because it has evidence and rationality on its side!

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40. Comment #128909 by jackster on February 18, 2008 at 9:31 am

comment#128223 by jbacsa,
i am not in privilaged minority, left school at 15, brought up catholic till 9 then born again christian. now a fair amount about christian doctin and religious experiance to now its a sham. however despite my lack of formal education my human intelligence marvells at the truth of evolution and the transparancy of the evidence for it, unlike the lack of evidence for god and the mystesism surrounding it. sorry for spelling/grammer.

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41. Comment #129425 by Azven on February 19, 2008 at 5:46 am

 avatarDoes any body else feel that this article ends rather suddenly?

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42. Comment #129445 by MuNky82 on February 19, 2008 at 6:29 am

 avatarcomment 16 from jbacsa:

It also seems to me that a notable exception are a wealthy, privileged minority who have no use for God.


I have to quote RD when he was on Have Your Say (BBC):

"Well it still doesn't mean that God's existance is true"

A lot of believers use this, even my mom. She said that religion gave her hope. I said using a false belief as crutches is just mental masturbation. She frowned upon my frankness though...

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