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Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts
by BBC
Thanks to Richard for the link.
Reposted from:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7264903.stm
Turkey is preparing to publish a document that represents a revolutionary reinterpretation of Islam - and a controversial and radical modernisation of the religion.
The country's powerful Department of Religious Affairs has commissioned a team of theologians at Ankara University to carry out a fundamental revision of the Hadith, the second most sacred text in Islam after the Koran.
The Hadith is a collection of thousands of sayings reputed to come from the Prophet Muhammad.
As such, it is the principal guide for Muslims in interpreting the Koran and the source of the vast majority of Islamic law, or Sharia.
But the Turkish state has come to see the Hadith as having an often negative influence on a society it is in a hurry to modernise, and believes it responsible for obscuring the original values of Islam.
It says that a significant number of the sayings were never uttered by Muhammad, and even some that were need now to be reinterpreted.
'Reformation'
Commentators say the very theology of Islam is being reinterpreted in order to effect a radical renewal of the religion.
Its supporters say the spirit of logic and reason inherent in Islam at its foundation 1,400 years ago are being rediscovered. Some believe it could represent the beginning of a reformation in the religion.
Turkish officials have been reticent about the revision of the Hadith until now, aware of the controversy it is likely to cause among traditionalist Muslims, but they have spoken to the BBC about the project, and their ambitious aims for it.
The forensic examination of the Hadiths has taken place in Ankara University's School of Theology.
An adviser to the project, Felix Koerner, says some of the sayings - also known individually as "hadiths" - can be shown to have been invented hundreds of years after the Prophet Muhammad died, to serve the purposes of contemporary society.
"Unfortunately you can even justify through alleged hadiths, the Muslim - or pseudo-Muslim - practice of female genital mutilation," he says.
"You can find messages which say 'that is what the Prophet ordered us to do'. But you can show historically how they came into being, as influences from other cultures, that were then projected onto Islamic tradition."
The argument is that Islamic tradition has been gradually hijacked by various - often conservative - cultures, seeking to use the religion for various forms of social control.
Leaders of the Hadith project say successive generations have embellished the text, attributing their political aims to the Prophet Muhammad himself.
Revolutionary
Turkey is intent on sweeping away that "cultural baggage" and returning to a form of Islam it claims accords with its original values and those of the Prophet.
But this is where the revolutionary nature of the work becomes apparent. Even some sayings accepted as being genuinely spoken by Muhammad have been altered and reinterpreted.
Prof Mehmet Gormez, a senior official in the Department of Religious Affairs and an expert on the Hadith, gives a telling example.
"There are some messages that ban women from travelling for three days or more without their husband's permission and they are genuine.
"But this isn't a religious ban. It came about because in the Prophet's time it simply wasn't safe for a woman to travel alone like that. But as time has passed, people have made permanent what was only supposed to be a temporary ban for safety reasons."
The project justifies such bold interference in the 1,400-year-old content of the Hadith by rigorous academic research.
Prof Gormez points out that in another speech, the Prophet said "he longed for the day when a woman might travel long distances alone".
So, he argues, it is clear what the Prophet's goal was.
Original spirit
Yet, until now, the ban has remained in the text, and helps to restrict the free movement of some Muslim women to this day.
As part of its aggressive programme of renewal, Turkey has given theological training to 450 women, and appointed them as senior imams called "vaizes".
They have been given the task of explaining the original spirit of Islam to remote communities in Turkey's vast interior.
One of the women, Hulya Koc, looked out over a sea of headscarves at a town meeting in central Turkey and told the women of the equality, justice and human rights guaranteed by an accurate interpretation of the Koran - one guided and confirmed by the revised Hadith.
She says that, at the moment, Islam is being widely used to justify the violent suppression of women.
"There are honour killings," she explains.
"We hear that some women are being killed when they marry the wrong person or run away with someone they love.
"There's also violence against women within families, including sexual harassment by uncles and others. This does not exist in Islam... we have to explain that to them."
'New Islam'
According to Fadi Hakura, an expert on Turkey from Chatham House in London, Turkey is doing nothing less than recreating Islam - changing it from a religion whose rules must be obeyed, to one designed to serve the needs of people in a modern secular democracy.
He says that to achieve it, the state is fashioning a new Islam.
"This is kind of akin to the Christian Reformation," he says.
"Not exactly the same, but if you think, it's changing the theological foundations of [the] religion. "
Fadi Hakura believes that until now secularist Turkey has been intent on creating a new politics for Islam.
Now, he says, "they are trying to fashion a new Islam."
Significantly, the "Ankara School" of theologians working on the new Hadith have been using Western critical techniques and philosophy.
They have also taken an even bolder step - rejecting a long-established rule of Muslim scholars that later (and often more conservative) texts override earlier ones.
"You have to see them as a whole," says Fadi Hakura.
"You can't say, for example, that the verses of violence override the verses of peace. This is used a lot in the Middle East, this kind of ideology.
"I cannot impress enough how fundamental [this change] is."
Reposted from:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7264903.stm
Turkey is preparing to publish a document that represents a revolutionary reinterpretation of Islam - and a controversial and radical modernisation of the religion.
The country's powerful Department of Religious Affairs has commissioned a team of theologians at Ankara University to carry out a fundamental revision of the Hadith, the second most sacred text in Islam after the Koran.
The Hadith is a collection of thousands of sayings reputed to come from the Prophet Muhammad.
As such, it is the principal guide for Muslims in interpreting the Koran and the source of the vast majority of Islamic law, or Sharia.
But the Turkish state has come to see the Hadith as having an often negative influence on a society it is in a hurry to modernise, and believes it responsible for obscuring the original values of Islam.
It says that a significant number of the sayings were never uttered by Muhammad, and even some that were need now to be reinterpreted.
'Reformation'
Commentators say the very theology of Islam is being reinterpreted in order to effect a radical renewal of the religion.
Its supporters say the spirit of logic and reason inherent in Islam at its foundation 1,400 years ago are being rediscovered. Some believe it could represent the beginning of a reformation in the religion.
Turkish officials have been reticent about the revision of the Hadith until now, aware of the controversy it is likely to cause among traditionalist Muslims, but they have spoken to the BBC about the project, and their ambitious aims for it.
The forensic examination of the Hadiths has taken place in Ankara University's School of Theology.
An adviser to the project, Felix Koerner, says some of the sayings - also known individually as "hadiths" - can be shown to have been invented hundreds of years after the Prophet Muhammad died, to serve the purposes of contemporary society.
"Unfortunately you can even justify through alleged hadiths, the Muslim - or pseudo-Muslim - practice of female genital mutilation," he says.
"You can find messages which say 'that is what the Prophet ordered us to do'. But you can show historically how they came into being, as influences from other cultures, that were then projected onto Islamic tradition."
The argument is that Islamic tradition has been gradually hijacked by various - often conservative - cultures, seeking to use the religion for various forms of social control.
Leaders of the Hadith project say successive generations have embellished the text, attributing their political aims to the Prophet Muhammad himself.
Revolutionary
Turkey is intent on sweeping away that "cultural baggage" and returning to a form of Islam it claims accords with its original values and those of the Prophet.
But this is where the revolutionary nature of the work becomes apparent. Even some sayings accepted as being genuinely spoken by Muhammad have been altered and reinterpreted.
Prof Mehmet Gormez, a senior official in the Department of Religious Affairs and an expert on the Hadith, gives a telling example.
"There are some messages that ban women from travelling for three days or more without their husband's permission and they are genuine.
"But this isn't a religious ban. It came about because in the Prophet's time it simply wasn't safe for a woman to travel alone like that. But as time has passed, people have made permanent what was only supposed to be a temporary ban for safety reasons."
The project justifies such bold interference in the 1,400-year-old content of the Hadith by rigorous academic research.
Prof Gormez points out that in another speech, the Prophet said "he longed for the day when a woman might travel long distances alone".
So, he argues, it is clear what the Prophet's goal was.
Original spirit
Yet, until now, the ban has remained in the text, and helps to restrict the free movement of some Muslim women to this day.
As part of its aggressive programme of renewal, Turkey has given theological training to 450 women, and appointed them as senior imams called "vaizes".
They have been given the task of explaining the original spirit of Islam to remote communities in Turkey's vast interior.
One of the women, Hulya Koc, looked out over a sea of headscarves at a town meeting in central Turkey and told the women of the equality, justice and human rights guaranteed by an accurate interpretation of the Koran - one guided and confirmed by the revised Hadith.
She says that, at the moment, Islam is being widely used to justify the violent suppression of women.
"There are honour killings," she explains.
"We hear that some women are being killed when they marry the wrong person or run away with someone they love.
"There's also violence against women within families, including sexual harassment by uncles and others. This does not exist in Islam... we have to explain that to them."
'New Islam'
According to Fadi Hakura, an expert on Turkey from Chatham House in London, Turkey is doing nothing less than recreating Islam - changing it from a religion whose rules must be obeyed, to one designed to serve the needs of people in a modern secular democracy.
He says that to achieve it, the state is fashioning a new Islam.
"This is kind of akin to the Christian Reformation," he says.
"Not exactly the same, but if you think, it's changing the theological foundations of [the] religion. "
Fadi Hakura believes that until now secularist Turkey has been intent on creating a new politics for Islam.
Now, he says, "they are trying to fashion a new Islam."
Significantly, the "Ankara School" of theologians working on the new Hadith have been using Western critical techniques and philosophy.
They have also taken an even bolder step - rejecting a long-established rule of Muslim scholars that later (and often more conservative) texts override earlier ones.
"You have to see them as a whole," says Fadi Hakura.
"You can't say, for example, that the verses of violence override the verses of peace. This is used a lot in the Middle East, this kind of ideology.
"I cannot impress enough how fundamental [this change] is."
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Posted: Thursday, February 28, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 48 of 48 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #134971 by Janus on February 28, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Good.Of course it's nonsense: They're not really "researching" or "reinterpreting" anything, they're twisting the meanings of words and sentences to make them fit with modern secular morality. But it's still a good thing. Since Islam is nonsense anyway, I would rather it become a harmless kind of nonsense rather than the oppressive, dangerous kind of nonsense that it currently is.
Other Comments by Janus
3. Comment #134975 by SPS on February 28, 2008 at 12:21 pm
If you can change "the theological foundations of [the] religion", did it ever have a foundation in the first place, and why would it after the change is made? When your religion is changed from under you how can you avoid feeling like a sheep lead around by not-so-divine forces? This may be good news in some sense, but a reformation of principles based on myth is a bit lacking.Other Comments by SPS
4. Comment #134979 by MPhil on February 28, 2008 at 12:23 pm
Oh please - the "original spirit"? The prophet's "original values"? Gimme a break! The guy was a deluded, megalomaniacal crook - the hadith and koran are full of misogyny and worse things.
This is like the modern, modest, central European christianity... far from its roots, reading part of the moral Zeitgeist into its holy scripture to avoid being left in the middle ages.... and then selling it as a return to the "original values" and a more "accurate" interpretation. Bullshit, it's just the opposite and these people are hypocrites.
Still, I'm glad Turkey is doing this... now if only they were to strengen their Laicism again, as Kemal Attatürk, the father of the modern turkish nation intended (and this we know for a fact).
Other Comments by MPhil
5. Comment #134983 by Goldy on February 28, 2008 at 12:26 pm
In here toohttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/26/wturkey126.xml
Before we get too excited...
But Mehmet Gormez, the British trained theologian who is supervising the work, refutes such charges. The exercise is "purely academic" he told the Daily Telegraph
and
Despite the excitement the project has elicited in Western circles, some Islamic experts caution that it will have little impact, not least because the government is involved.
"There are established views on Islam and how it should be practiced that have been in place for 1400 years," said Hashim Hashimi, an Islamic sheikh and a former MP. "And they aren't going to change any time soon," he added.
Other Comments by Goldy
6. Comment #134984 by Quetzalcoatl on February 28, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Excellent. We shall see how well this goes down with the rest of the Islamic world. But even so, this is a very positive step. Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
7. Comment #134986 by al-rawandi on February 28, 2008 at 12:27 pm
This will never get past Istambul, Izmir and Ankara.
The term bida'a means "innovation" and it is a very dirty word for Muslim scholars.
This will be viewed by the Sunni Orthodox community as something that is "alien to Islam" and a "western imposition". It will do a great deal to solidify fundamentalism in some parts of the Muslim world.
It could have quite the opposite effect, especially when a Muslim party is currently empowered in Turkey. If power transfers from Racip Tayyip Erdogan to Abdullah Gul, then there may be additional probelms.
Erdogan said:
"Democracy is like a street car, you get off when you reach your destination".
I take him at his word.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
8. Comment #134990 by Noodly on February 28, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Turkey is a strange mix of western and middle eastern cultures. Having made some Turkish friends on holiday and business trips I noticed how atheism is strong in younger educated people and Islam strong in the older and more rural populations. Which is as you would expect.
These revisions will be a big leap forward if they are successfully implemented.
Other Comments by Noodly
9. Comment #134992 by jonjermey on February 28, 2008 at 12:30 pm
This is wonderful news. This 'reinterpretation' is exactly what had to happen to Christianity before it was able to accept the idea of tolerance. Tolerance permits people to debate, and debate leads eventually to atheism. Baby steps, but essential ones. Let's hope the movement spreads.Other Comments by jonjermey
10. Comment #134993 by Barry Pearson on February 28, 2008 at 12:32 pm
It isn't just the Haddith that are wrong.
The Koran is also wrong! Here is a Muslim website that identifies problems with the Koran itself:
http://reformislam.org/
Here are verses in the Koran that are incompatible with the 21st Century:
http://reformislam.org/verses.php
There are a number of groups trying to reform Islam. I suspect that they will have little or no real impact in Islamic states during the next decade or few, if ever.
Other Comments by Barry Pearson
11. Comment #134994 by Goldy on February 28, 2008 at 12:32 pm
http://www.mentalmayhem.net/newswire/2005/02/saudi_who_rode_.htmlHow the people outside Turkey might respond ;-)
Actually, they're not that bad. Mosy of the Turks i know of are actually in Austria and Germany. Guest workers, they're called, and boy is that a barrier to integration!
Other Comments by Goldy
12. Comment #134995 by al-rawandi on February 28, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Noodly,
Booya! The religious are considered yokels who will make Turkey into Iran. That is why the Muslim parties are strongly tied to Populist ideas.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
13. Comment #134996 by JamesDB on February 28, 2008 at 12:32 pm
This is a smart move by the Turkish government. I like to see that they are especially taking notice to the rules that are spefically targeted at women, giving them the rights they should have anyways.
No travelling for 3 days without permission, haha why would anyone take that seriously. This is the kind of thing that shows us that religion is stupid and people are stupid for believing in it.
Other Comments by JamesDB
14. Comment #135018 by dazzjazz on February 28, 2008 at 12:54 pm
"But this isn't a religious ban. It came about because in the Prophet's time it simply wasn't safe for a woman to travel alone like that. But as time has passed, people have made permanent what was only supposed to be a temporary ban for safety reasons."
Nice to see SOME reason for a change. Still much work to be done before they realise having millions of people believe and take on one persons spiritual experience is stupid idea.
Darren
Other Comments by dazzjazz
15. Comment #135034 by MPhil on February 28, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Goldy,
Noone is called a "guest worker" in Germany anymore. The term has faded out of usage almost completely. It was used specifically to refer to the people from Italy, Greece and Turkey (mostly) that were hired during the late 50s to late 60s when the German population couldn't provide enough workers for the rocketing economy, the "Wirtschaftswunder" and its consequences.
Those people are now in their 60s or even 70s - some went back to their countries of birth, others stayed and had children, who are now mostly parents themselves.
That is not to say that there are no obstacles to integration - erected both by the German government and economy and by the immigrants.
Other Comments by MPhil
16. Comment #135036 by Mike O'Risal on February 28, 2008 at 1:19 pm
They make this out to be a big deal, but I think I can give this religion all the reformation it really needs right here in this forum.Forget all the supernatural stuff and treat others as you would like them to treat you.
Ta dah. All done.
Other Comments by Mike O'Risal
17. Comment #135038 by Goldy on February 28, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Noone is called a "guest worker" in Germany anymore
True, but I believe the feeling lingers. Turks are the majority in Austria (hard to notice an Italian where we're from given Sud tirol is just south of the Brenner :-)). I know that the laws are being revised - heck, even my mother can't see why they can't get citizenship after so many years - generations even. Not that she's racist assuch - but old feelings die hard...
Other Comments by Goldy
18. Comment #135043 by Goldy on February 28, 2008 at 1:26 pm
http://www.urban-europe.net/working/06_2004_Anil.pdfThe German citizenship reform was recent history.
others stayed and had children, who are now mostly parents themselves.
They weren't considered German (or Austrian).
Other Comments by Goldy
19. Comment #135058 by MPhil on February 28, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Goldy,
You're right - I just wanted to point out that the term is no longer used. And as I said, obstacles to integration exist on both sides.
Other Comments by MPhil
20. Comment #135063 by Goldy on February 28, 2008 at 1:45 pm
MPhil, call me oldfashioned ;-) And out of touch...so much to read, so little time, so much to learn and so little inclination :-(Other Comments by Goldy
21. Comment #135065 by al-rawandi on February 28, 2008 at 1:48 pm
You Germans sure are hard on people you think aren't German.
Geeeeezzzzeee
Other Comments by al-rawandi
22. Comment #135068 by Fiesoduck on February 28, 2008 at 1:48 pm
A "Reformation" of Islam? That is great, now they are only 500 years behind the rest of the world... Other Comments by Fiesoduck
23. Comment #135071 by MPhil on February 28, 2008 at 1:52 pm
You Germans sure are hard on people you think aren't German.
Now how am I to understand that generalization? Please tell me that wasn't meant seriously... I doubt you're capable of promoting false and malicious stereotypes.
Other Comments by MPhil
24. Comment #135073 by MPhil on February 28, 2008 at 1:55 pm
I'm sorry if my sarcasm detectors are a little misaligned right now - I'm pretty tired :) Other Comments by MPhil
25. Comment #135078 by MPhil on February 28, 2008 at 2:03 pm
And there is of course a major difference between Germany and Austria on the one side, and countries like France and America on the other.
Germany and Austria don't have a history that is completely based on immigration, nor do they have colonies anymore - for the entire lifetime of this and the last generation. So, the concept of "being German" or "being Austrian" is more dependent on how 'rooted' you are in the region where you live and the local culture than on what your passport says. I don't assign any moral value to being born inside an arbitraryily defined area... but some do, and I think that's wrong. But the idea of cultural identity and social cohesion based on this isn't evil per se.
Of course there's a problem where it leads to prejudice and intolerance (except for intolerance of the 'enemies' of a free, constitutional society, which have to be opposed).
Other Comments by MPhil
26. Comment #135080 by al-rawandi on February 28, 2008 at 2:06 pm
MPhil,
I am giving you a hard time and subtely poking fun at the habit of some religious people *Cough* Jews *Cough* to bring up the holocaust at any juncture.
I wasn't being serious.
Are you from the Ost Mark or Sud Mark?
Other Comments by al-rawandi
27. Comment #135095 by MPhil on February 28, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Neither, I'm from Upper Franconia... Bayreuth to be exact. Maybe you have heard of it, it's the Richard Wagner-city, every year thousands of fans of classical music from around the world make a pilgrimage to the Wagner-Festspiele.
I assure you this is in no way personal for me - except of course in the what that everyone is little more sensitive to strereotypization when it concerns a group (however arbitrary) to which he belongs.
Other Comments by MPhil
28. Comment #135101 by al-rawandi on February 28, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Classical Music?
It's all Greek to me.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
30. Comment #135105 by MPhil on February 28, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Anyways - I hope that the current movement to preserve/restore laicism as Attatürk set out will be successful... Other Comments by MPhil
31. Comment #135110 by epeeist on February 28, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Comment #135095 by MPhilNeither, I'm from Upper Franconia... Bayreuth to be exact. Maybe you have heard of it, it's the Richard Wagner-city, every year thousands of fans of classical music from around the world make a pilgrimage to the Wagner-Festspiele.Ooh, any chance of tickets for a complete Ring cycle?
Other Comments by epeeist
32. Comment #135131 by MPhil on February 28, 2008 at 3:00 pm
epeeist,
believe me - I wish there were. The current waiting list for Bayreuth-citizens is 4 years I think - and it ain't cheap either. Friends of mine go there every year - lucky bastards. Some even house a few of the international artists that sing at the Festspielhaus.
All I ever managed was to get tickets for the dress rehearsals of Sigfried and Rheingold.
But if you're willing to wait a few years, why not get your order placed now? I think it's worth it and I plan on doing so once I am reasonably sure where I'll be in 4-5 years :)
Until then, there is a wonderful DVD-set of the 1976(-1980)"Jahrhundertring" with Pierre Boulez conducting and Patrice Chéreau as director.
I'd be happy to meet you here and give you a tour of the wonderful cultural artifacts in this city, like the Hermitage (http://www.schloesser.bayern.de/englisch/palace/objects/bay_as.htm) and the margrave opera (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Opernhaus_Bayreuth_2_db.jpg - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Opernhaus_Bayreuth_1_db.jpg)
;)
Other Comments by MPhil
33. Comment #135142 by Goldy on February 28, 2008 at 3:15 pm
BBC article about German muslims. Hopefully the Turkish theologians can get this issue cleared up...http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7268701.stm
Other Comments by Goldy
34. Comment #135150 by MPhil on February 28, 2008 at 3:26 pm
That's the problem everywhere, isn't it... radical fundamentalist mentality. I think it's not necessarily dependant on religion (Islam), but more generally an outdated concept of pride and honor, which of course is reinforced by Islam.
There can be no real integration into a free, democratic society with such people. But this is also a huge problem with young people without migration background... it's a problem of the 'lower class'. In some areas and schools there isn't any problem, there is cooperation and understanding... but mostly, uneducated, low-income parents live in 'ghettos' where there is a "might makes right" mentality and a lot of violence. Furthermore, the parents and the media the children are exposed to through their parents leave them without proper education, intellectual as well as moral. Domestic violence levels are high, so are violent crimes.
But the people with migration background and inhuman, outdated conceptions of pride and honor aren't helping... these notions, this machoism is impressive to the children - who adopt it. The only way to solve conflicts they know is violence...
I really almost despair when I think of it. It's a vicious circle, it's a growing phenomenon and there's almost no escape for those who are already part of it.
Other Comments by MPhil
35. Comment #135155 by Goldy on February 28, 2008 at 3:36 pm
That's the problem everywhere, isn't it... radical fundamentalist mentality
It is. Mind you, I think it is beyond even religion - it is some cultural thing from way back, probably before gods.
I'm not 100% sure of the integration of Turks and Yugoslavs (well, the constituents of what was Yugoslavia now) where my mother's from (in Tirol). I know a large family live where the butcher used to, in apartments. They have Turkish flags, Turkish music and I dare say it is Turkey inside (but hey, who am I to say anything - I am English here in NZ, listen to the BBC, speak English, support English teams...). I wonder how the children are, if they have a range of nationalities in their schoolfriends or if they segregate.
Sad, isn't it? We travel and settle like no time since the fall of Rome and yet it's like oil on water when it comes to integration.
Other Comments by Goldy
36. Comment #135162 by black wolf on February 28, 2008 at 3:50 pm
from Goldy's link:"No," one of the boys replied, "because honour matters even more than religion."
and
One Muslim community leader told me that if he could talk to those boys, I met at the shopping mall, he would explain to them in no uncertain terms that killing one's own sister - or anyone for that matter - has nothing to do with being a good Muslim.
Apparently some people are missing the point. The only concept these youth answer to is archaic honor and respect. These themes are incidentally very common in German rap music by immigrant descendants. As that one guy says, it's the only thing they've got left. They don't care for religion much, except where it confirms their view without restricting their lifestyle. They don't care for the law either, because the law takes their right to hang around wherever they wish, publically humiliate girls and women, graffiti, drug dealing and petty crime. I know many of these allegations sound like bigotry, but that is how very many of these guys spend their days, and what I know from personal experience.
What they do respect are stronger guys (that's why very many are into martial arts), elder brothers, fathers. Many can't speak or write proper German or Turkish, so once they start dropping out of school early, more follow and there's no turning back. Some can be hopefully brought to a decent education and job training individually, but that takes weeks and months of effort, and the youth offices just don't have the budget or personnel to accomplish that with all of them.
Seemingly also more and more Germans from the condo areas join them in their perception of Ghetto Glory and 'us vs. everyone else' idealization.
Other Comments by black wolf
37. Comment #135172 by Dr Nev on February 28, 2008 at 4:24 pm
I'm going to try and be optimistic and say this might work out to have a positive effect. As much as I detest Islam or any other religion for that matter, revising the texts is a start, especially if it can improve the treatment of Women and even become a little less oppressive. Still at the end of the day revising really means they are playing with the texts and redefining passages to try and fit with today's worldview. I guess we will have to wait and see? (I don't advise anybody to hold their breath!). Other Comments by Dr Nev
38. Comment #135203 by Robert Maynard on February 28, 2008 at 5:37 pm
This is good news. Other Comments by Robert Maynard
39. Comment #135207 by Goldy on February 28, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Letter in the Independent...Islam demands respect for women
Sir: It is deeply saddening to hear cases of domestic violence against Muslim women (letter, 21 February). It should be clear to those who commit such acts, as well as to those who blame Islam for it, that they have no sanction whatsoever within sharia.
The life of Muhammad is in itself a verdict upon the matter, where each member of the family was always treated with utter kindness and respect and not one example of physical punishment was ever recorded. His sayings include: "The more civil and the kinder a Muslim is to his wife, the more perfect of faith he is."
A closer look at the instances of domestic violence will reveal cultural and personality problems as the root causes rather than partially quoted Quranic verses (letters, 11 February). I say this because I belong to a Muslim community who believe in every single verse of the Quran, and where women are well educated and lead fulfilling lives, seeing Islam as liberating rather than repressive.
Naveed Malik
Coventry
So, mistreatment of women is unIslamic. How very circular this argument gets!
Other Comments by Goldy
40. Comment #135435 by Wendy M on February 29, 2008 at 1:03 am
I belong to a Muslim community who believe in every single verse of the Quran, and where women are well educated and lead fulfilling lives, seeing Islam as liberating rather than repressive.
Naveed Malik
I can't help noticing that this letter was written by a man.
Other Comments by Wendy M
41. Comment #135442 by mulder on February 29, 2008 at 1:23 am
I am from Turkey and I can honestly say that this news is great.I think a revolutionary look of Islam can be a perfect opportunity to criticize or review Islam, which few people can do in today's Turkey apart from an amazingly increasing number of atheist.Other Comments by mulder
42. Comment #135451 by Goldy on February 29, 2008 at 1:53 am
I am watching a documentary about Christians and Muslims in Nigeria and all I can think of is....silly buggers! If there was no religion..but that will never happen. Bloody silly buggers!Other Comments by Goldy
43. Comment #135454 by sornord on February 29, 2008 at 1:57 am
Let's hope the Islamo-fundies don't start hunting down reformers in Turkey...Other Comments by sornord
44. Comment #135459 by irate_atheist on February 29, 2008 at 2:06 am
Any chance of a non-fiction version? Other Comments by irate_atheist
45. Comment #135466 by IanG on February 29, 2008 at 2:19 am
This seems to me to be a good example of understanding the need sometimes to choose between the lesser of evils.Or, as I am inclined to say, "Which problem do you want?"
Right now this is probably the best that we could have hoped for and I feel that we should welcome it and support it. If it means that we get challenged with supporting religious ideas, that will be the time to clarify our underlying values and longer-term wishes.
It is encouraging to ponder the possibility that a main stimulus to this Turkish initiative is the need for the country to become acceptable to the European society that it hopes to join. We should use the peer-pressure of civilised democracy as much as possible.
It is, equally, worth bearing in mind that, once inside the European Union, it would not be contrary to the long-established precedent of Islamic behaviour for this movement to go into reverse, having gained the tactical advantage from short-term political accommodation. Otherwise known as "keeping your powder dry".
I am delighted for the people of Turkey, particularly the women.
I am cautiously optimistic for the rest of us, rather than being joyfully ecstatic. Gift horses merit continued attention even if provisionally welcomed!
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46. Comment #135983 by crazy4blues on February 29, 2008 at 11:52 am
Wonderful! Check back with me in about 200 years when some of this might take some effect! Other Comments by crazy4blues
47. Comment #136101 by Prankster on February 29, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Won't this cause in-fighting between the more moderate elements of Islam and the hardline hardcore fundamentalists?Or will it actually work
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48. Comment #136108 by al-rawandi on February 29, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Prankster,
It will cause a widespread rejection of this sinful "innovation" of Islam. Fundamentalists may win some recruits.
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1. Comment #134970 by knutsondc on February 28, 2008 at 12:15 pm
It's about time! It seems that the Turkish theologians can get away with reinterpreting admittedly genuine hadiths because, unlike the Qu'ran itself, orthodox Islam does not consider the hadith to be the literal "Word of God," valid and binding at all times and in all places.It'd be better if people could just give up so-called "revealed" religions outright, but an effort to bring Islamic religious and social doctrines out of their 7th Century Arabian rut is at least modest progress.
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