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Thursday, March 6, 2008 | Science : Evolution and Biology | print version Print | Comments

Document Crossing the Divide

by ScienceMag.com

Reposted from:
http://sciencemag.com

Read the article PDF here:
http://media.richarddawkins.net/documents/2008/CrossingTheDivide.pdf

CROSSING THE DIVIDE
Like others who have rejected creationism and embraced evolution, paleontologist Stephen Godfrey is still recovering from the traumatic journey


CTD1

SOLOMONS, MARYLAND - On a clear January day, Stephen Godfrey is dressed for fossilhunting: frayed baggy jeans, a puffy green vest, and a leather jacket that's seen better times. A paleontologist and curator at the modest Calvert Marine Museum here, Godfrey frequents the nearby Calvert Cliffs, which rise from the shoreline of Chesapeake Bay and hold everything from ancient shark teeth to dolphin skulls. "You start collecting them because, well, they're beautiful," he says of his beloved fossils.

It was the study of fossils that, 25 years ago, set Godfrey on an anguished path. Raised in a fundamentalist Christian family in Quebec, Canada, embracing a 6000-year-old Earth where Noah's flood laid down every fossil, Godfrey began probing the underpinnings of creationism in graduate school. The inconsistencies he found led step by step, over many years, to a staunch acceptance of evolution. With this shift came rejection from his religious community, estrangement from his parents, and, perhaps most difficult of all, a crisis of faith that endures.

Powerful emotions bind together young- Earth creationists, members of a movement making inroads from Kenya to Kentucky, where a $27 million Creation Museum opened last year. Scientists and educators have responded mainly by boosting biology's place in the classroom and building rational arguments for evolution. But reason alone is rarely enough to sway believers. That's because letting go of creationism carries enormous emotional risks, including a loss of identity and community and an agonizing, if illusory, choice: science or faith. People like Godfrey tend not to advertise their painful transition from creationist to evolutionist, certainly not to scientific peers. When doubts about creationism begin to nag, they have no one to turn to: not Christians in their community, who espouse a literal reading of the Bible and equate rejecting creationism with rejecting God, and not scientists, who often dismiss creationists as ignorant or lunatic.

"Nothing else I have done in my life has made me such an outsider," says Brian Alters, director of McGill University's Evolution Education Research Centre in Montreal. Alters has written books on teaching evolution and testif ied in the 2005 Dover, Pennsylvania, trial against bringing intelligent design—a form of creationism— into the classroom. But few of his friends or his enemies know that Alters, who had a fundamentalist Christian upbringing in southern California, rejected creationism in college. More than 2 decades later, he says, "I still have childhood friends and relatives who won't speak to me."

CTD4Faithful upbringing
Religion anchored Godfrey's childhood. He was the third of five children—"a great place to be overlooked," he jokes. Every evening after dinner, his father, a Sunday school teacher, pulled out the Bible. "We would go systematically through two readings of books," says Godfrey, and devote time to prayer. The family attended church twice on Sundays, in the morning and in the evening, and one parent or the other often dropped in on a Bible study class midweek.

From a young age, Godfrey had a keen interest in biology. He adored touring natural history museums and collected pinecones, rocks, minerals, and anything else he could find outdoors. Skeletons in particular captivated him for their visual aesthetic. During visits to his mother's family in New York state, he began gathering the skeletal remains of groundhogs and squirrels left by the side of the road, carefully wrapping them in black garbage bags for the trip home to Quebec.

His parents saw no conflict between their son's love of biology and their beliefs and encouraged his interests. "I guess they figured that the young-Earth creationist position was strong enough, was robust enough, that he would believe in young-Earth creationism and he would be a biologist, and that would be fine," says Godfrey.

Now 48, Godfrey came of age after young- Earth creationism took hold in North America in the early 1960s. Its leaders argued that during the previous 150 years, Bible-believing Christians had gone too far in accommodating science in their interpretation of scripture and pushed for a literal reading of the Bible, says Ronald Numbers, a historian of science at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. Fossils, for example, are the remains of plants and animals left out of Noah's ark. The description of Adam and Eve in Genesis suggests that humans had never been subject to evolution. Using calculations drawn from genealogy, young-Earth creationists consider the planet to be 6000 to 10,000 years old. (Geologists say it is about 4.5 billion years old.)

Godfrey, who subscribed wholeheartedly to these views, vividly recalls his earliest encounter with evolution. In the first grade, when he was about 6 years old, a student teacher said that apes were the ancestors of people. "I remember having this visceral reaction … and saying, 'No, that can't be.' " Around the dinner table that night, his family discussed the experience, concluding that the teacher must have been mistaken. "It couldn't be true because apes aren't evolving into humans today; they're apes," Godfrey remembers. And that was that.

Although creationism might seem bizarre to individuals who have never believed in it, for those who do, its power is almost beyond words. Alters remembers, as a young teenager, sitting in on a sermon by Robert Schuller, a televangelist whose California church is fairly liberal. Listening to Schuller endorse the views of scientists who consider rocks to be millions of years old, Alters began to cry, horrified that the preacher would lie. "It was almost as if he stood there and said Jesus Christ didn't exist," he recalls. For biblical literalists, belief is generally an all-ornothing proposition.

Identity crisis
Godfrey entered college convinced that scientists were engaged in a vast conspiracy to promote evolution. At Bishop's University in Sherbrooke, Quebec, he majored in biology and lived at home, several kilometers away. In one sense, his studies had little effect on his faith. "You can learn facts, and you can do really well on exams and not believe" what you're learning, he says. But then, his classes also raised niggling questions that biblical literalism could not easily answer.

CTD2For example, there was the quandary of death. A literal reading of Genesis indicates that no animals perished before Adam and Eve ate the fateful apple—in other words, that there were no carnivores preying on other animals. But in his biology classes, Godfrey learned of predators perfectly framed to kill: cats with stereoscopic vision, enlarged canines, and claws; spiders that weave webs as traps; and sharks that replace serrated teeth throughout their life. "They're not eating sea seaweed," says Godfrey, who puzzled over how these animals had emerged if God hadn't intended them to prey on others. "That was the first thing at university that really started to disturb me," he says.

In his final year, Godfrey gave a presentation on the origin of flight, arguing that Archaeopteryx, the earliest known bird, could not have evolved from the dinosaurs. Although impressed by similarities between Archaeopteryx's anatomy and that of dinosaurs, he pushed this to the back of his mind. By this time, Godfrey was at a crossroads and determined to find out for himself whether the claims of biologists and paleontologists were true. He enrolled in graduate school in paleontology at McGill University and was taken in by Robert Carroll. Carroll had heard that Godfrey was a creationist but didn't give it much thought, he says now. In Carroll's lab, Godfrey prepared and described fossils of an ancient amphibian called Greererpeton. The fossils "could have come from the moon," says Carroll. Analyzing them out of context had little impact on Godfrey's views.

Then Godfrey's world came crashing down.

His first summer in graduate school, he was invited to join a f ield expedition in rural Kansas, where University of Toronto paleontologist Robert Reisz and some students were digging for pelycosaurs, 300-million-year-old animals that display some features of mammals that evolved later. Living in tents on a farmer's field in searing heat and humidity and surrounded by cows, the group visited the nearest town, Garnett, weekly for food and other supplies. At night, the sky glowed with stars, and Godfrey pointed out the constellations to his companions.

By day, quarrying through thin layers of rock, "we started to come across footprints of terrestrial animals," says Godfrey. "You can't imagine a global flood and animals finding ground to make footprints on. … That, more than anything, any other experience in my life, really shook me to the core." Godfrey agonized about where these footprints might have come from. Some creationists argue for floating mats of vegetation during the flood, but Godfrey found that unconvincing.

"He was one of the brightest students that I'd ever seen," says Reisz, who at the time knew that Godfrey was a devout Christian but had no idea of the crisis triggered by his fieldwork. "The ease with which he learned, the ease with which he accumulated new ideas, … all spoke to a superior intelligence."

Godfrey held out from embracing evolution, however, until after moving in 1989 to Drumheller, Alberta, dubbed the "dinosaur capital of the world" because of its diversity of fossils. Godfrey often drove southeast to Dinosaur Provincial Park, passing through a landscape of sediments laid atop one another: deposits from freshwater and terrestrial environments in one, marine organisms and mollusks in another, and a third that mimicked the first, a mix of fossils from fresh water and land. "These animals were living here in this same place, but they couldn't have all been there at the same time," he says, a fact that was irreconcilable with flood geology. It was then that "the rest of the young-Earth creationist ideas kind of exploded."

CTD3Godfrey ran through bitterness, anger, and disappointment about having been deceived for so many years. He sought out creationists and confronted them. Late in graduate school, he and his devout Christian wife, mother-in-law, and mother attended a weekend symposium at a Bible school in New York state, where Godfrey says he angrily stood up at the end of a talk and argued passionately with the speaker.

It was there, and in conversations during holiday meals, that Godfrey's parents realized that he had changed. Deeply unhappy, they worried whether their son could endorse an old Earth and remain a Christian. Their message was, "It's all or nothing," says Christopher Smith, Godfrey's brother-inlaw and a pastor at the University Baptist Church in East Lansing, Michigan. "I do remember a discussion one year at Christmas; the tone quickly turned angry," Smith says. Godfrey's father eventually asked that he stop mentioning evolution, as the topic was too upsetting to the family, who believe that their afterlife depends on embracing creationism.

Parents often cannot cope with such an upheaval in a child. "The day I had to tell my mother I wasn't a young-Earth creationist was the scariest day of my life," says Denis Lamoureux, who teaches science and religion at St. Joseph's College in the University of Alberta in Edmonton, Canada. His mother was so embarrassed by his work in biology that she told her friends her son was still in the profession he once belonged to: dentistry. Some compare these conversations to informing fundamentalist Christian parents that they are gay—but perhaps even more wrenching.

Jagged resolution
Trying to articulate where his religious beliefs stand now, Godfrey's eyes fill with tears. "It's been so long, a lifelong struggle, to sort out," he says. He has flirted with atheism but found it too depressing. Several years ago, he stopped attending church for a year before returning. He believes in God today, he says, but tomorrow may be different.

Complicating matters are the people he most loves and their stance on creationism. Godfrey and his wife met as teenagers in a church youth group. They and their five children have always attended an evangelical, young-Earth creationist church. About 6 months ago, Godfrey seethed through 12 weeks of a DVD presentation on creationism. During an early session, he raised objections in front of a church youth group that included his 15-year-old daughter. The group was not brought back for later showings.

"I was really torn," he says, "because I would have loved to have been given the opportunity to say, 'Okay, I'm now going to do a presentation on the other side.' But they don't want to hear it. It's too threatening and it's too upsetting."

Like many creationists-turned-evolutionists, Godfrey is conflicted about how, and how forcefully, to press his case. In 2005, he and his brother-in-law Smith published Paradigms on Pilgrimage, a book describing their own transition and making the case for evolution. His father prayed that it would not be published, and Godfrey did not send his parents a copy. He thought his book would change minds among creationists but isn't sure it has.

"I haven't" read it, says his younger sister Esther Godfrey, of Sherbrooke. "I'm feeling it's a very odd way of viewing the Bible, if you can choose which parts you believe literally and not literally." Esther Godfrey is not sure what turned her brother away from a young Earth, as they've never discussed it. "I know he saw something at some point, maybe a fossil, and thought the Earth has to be old," she says. "That is what I've heard."

Just as he longs for biblical literalists to be more receptive to evolution, Godfrey also wishes that biologists would join the discussion. He was incensed 5 years ago when, participating in an evolution-creationism debate at Bishop's University, where he once argued against the fossil record, no one from the biology department attended.

"I continue to think that scientists have made a serious mistake in not engaging the issue," agrees entomologist Susan Fisher of Ohio State University in Columbus. Fisher, always an evolutionist, was shocked to learn that more than half the students in her 700-person introductory biology class identified themselves as creationists. Last year, she received funding from the John Templeton Foundation to bring in scholars, most of them Christians who reject creationism, to speak to the students. "We need to figure out among students changing their minds, what does that?" says Jason Wiles, who studies evolution education at McGill and Syracuse University in New York state and was himself once a creationist.

But sometimes, former creationists believe, changing minds is not worth the heartache it brings. Godfrey no longer considers evolution worth mentioning to his parents, now 78 and 79 years old, and he asked that they not be contacted for this article. "You can live your life just fine and not know squat about evolution," he says.

When it comes to his children, Godfrey's not sure what they believe nor how firmly to steer them. Certainly, he says, they are exposed to creationist teachings. Of all his children it's his youngest, 4-year-old Victoria, who shows the strongest penchant for science. Wandering the beaches near her home, she often asks to bring home bones she finds, just as her father did years ago. Will her view of the world make room for evolution? Godfrey watches and waits and wonders whether to step in.

–JENNIFER COUZIN

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1. Comment #139661 by jimbob on March 6, 2008 at 11:16 am

199 years ago Charles Darwin was born. Geology was popular at that time among religious folks who were looking for evidence for creation -- and Darwin was interested too.

Of course, Darwin's other research revealed the absurdity of "intelligent design," but religion is nothing if not virtually immune to rationality.

Next year -- February 12th to be precise, is Darwin's 200th birthday. Moreover, he shares that birthday with Abraham Lincoln.

We should start planning now for a celebration of rationality centered on the lessons that:

- Darwin taught us about the absurdity of "intelligent design."

- Lincoln taught us about the absurdity of the bible being a basis for morality. (The bible is a virtual owner's manual for slave holders, and as Sam Harris reminded us, that bible-based immorality had to be eradicated at bayonet point through the pious Southern states!).

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2. Comment #139675 by Geoff on March 6, 2008 at 11:39 am

 avatarA story that's both sad and heartening at the same time.

Yet more evidence that education is the key.

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3. Comment #139682 by stephenray on March 6, 2008 at 11:51 am

It wasn't that long ago that I twigged to the fact that creationists don't just think that evolution is wrong and mistaken, they really do believe that there is an 'evolution conspiracy', that there are thousands, hundreds of thousands of biologists, chemists, university and school administrators, book and magazine publishers, editors, film makers, TV program makers, TV company managers, etc - all determined to peddle an untrue story about how organised complexity came to be on this planet.

The only way you can acquire such a bizarre and non-sensical belief is if your parents indoctrinate you into it, or if you are terminally stupid.

My congratulations to Mr Godfrey, and let's hope he helps his children to a better understanding of the universe than he got from his parents.

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4. Comment #139693 by bamafreethinker on March 6, 2008 at 12:04 pm

 avatarThis describes pretty well what it's like for me as well. I'm stuck in the middle of a YEC family and social environment and it can get really frustrating at times. I mostly just keep my mouth shut. My children are the most difficult part of the equation, as my wife is a "weak" YEC. She is opening more and more to the idea of evolution the more we watch the Discovery Channel; and as our 12 year old son explains it to her!

I very much enjoyed this article.

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5. Comment #139705 by pulsar1z on March 6, 2008 at 12:14 pm

 avatarThe truth isn't that terrible. It is miraculous and wonderful. It is the stubbornness and ignorance that causes the unhappiness.

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6. Comment #139724 by bamafreethinker on March 6, 2008 at 12:40 pm

 avatar
The truth isn't that terrible. It is miraculous and wonderful. It is the stubbornness and ignorance that causes the unhappiness.


The unhappiness comes from the way other people react to your beliefs. It may be similar to the way a gay person feels to come out. It feels great to be honest with one's self, but the way other people react is what makes things miserable.

My parents are just too old (75 and 79) to think about things like this and I don't think their heart could handle knowing that I'm not a believer. I stay in the closet to protect them from the stress I suppose.

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7. Comment #139728 by Goldy on March 6, 2008 at 12:44 pm

Every evening after dinner, his father, a Sunday school teacher, pulled out the Bible. "We would go systematically through two readings of books," says Godfrey, and devote time to prayer

Amazing - if it was my family, we'd still be hammer and tongs at Genesis. Too mnay inconsistencies in the first few words for it to make any meaningful sense.
Odd how some people are. Glad he saw the light, as it were, but surprised it wasn't from his Bible readings...

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8. Comment #139732 by robotaholic on March 6, 2008 at 12:49 pm

 avatarthis was a great article

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9. Comment #139734 by bamafreethinker on March 6, 2008 at 12:52 pm

 avatar
.Amazing - if it was my family, we'd still be hammer and tongs at Genesis. Too mnay inconsistencies in the first few words for it to make any meaningful sense.


Ah, but if you were brought up, like me, to put the cart before the horse, i.e. the bible IS god's word, so no matter what "seems" wrong with it: it's your inability to understand it. Seems too simple to work but, unfortunately, it does

I have to be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking, "If eveeryone was just as bright, witty, and rational as me, there would be no religion."

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10. Comment #139742 by clunkclickeverytrip on March 6, 2008 at 12:57 pm

"He has flirted with atheism but found it too depressing."
I'll cut the guy some slack since he was abused as a child. However, I agree with pulsar1z - there is nothing quite as liberating and uplifting as knowing the truth. The universe is gloriously devoid of a supernatural creator. What IS depressing is the cycle of ignorance perpertuated by religion:

-------->childhood indoctrination---

---------adult delusion <--------

(Sorry for the poor graphics - I intend to dress this up a bit for my avatar).

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11. Comment #139746 by Goldy on March 6, 2008 at 1:00 pm

Ah, but if you were brought up, like me, to put the cart before the horse, i.e. the bible IS god's word, so no matter what "seems" wrong with it: it's your inability to understand it. Seems too simple to work but, unfortunately, it does

You're right, I know. I'm still floored by certain Chinese beliefs - try and tell the wife it's bollocks and try to get her to see it, but it is deeply ingrained.
Odd how flexible the human mind can be, flexible in its learning capacity and flexible in the way it can process data.

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12. Comment #139752 by Goldy on March 6, 2008 at 1:08 pm

I have to be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking, "If everyone was just as bright, witty, and rational as me, there would be no religion."

This is something, I must admit, that plagues me. If I can see it, I assume everyone else can. If I can see it and point it out, I assume everyone else can understand my point.
It is something I do as well, though - many's the time I believed and even argued a point even when told it was wrong. If YEC is shown to be right, I shall probably undergo the same feelings :-)

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13. Comment #139755 by pulsar1z on March 6, 2008 at 1:10 pm

 avatarI have a similar problem in my family, Father is 88 and Mother is 86

The way people react to your beliefs is something you have little control of. The best thing to do is to set an example of happiness and loving kindness. I found that usually works best. At first I tried to explain but immediately got nowhere so I decided humility was called for. My Brother is a Catholic extremist.

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14. Comment #139758 by bamafreethinker on March 6, 2008 at 1:12 pm

 avatarIf someone tells me they de-converted in a matter of months or weeks - I'm skeptical. It is likely that they; 1) had serious doubts from as far back as childhood, or 2) they were not heavily indoctinated in the first place. For me, it took about 3 years of consistant study.

The fear of hell is real - even if hell itself is not and this has an extremely strong influence on even being open to questions.

I agree that the bible is the first place to start, however.

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15. Comment #139759 by Slyer on March 6, 2008 at 1:14 pm

 avatarOh why must religion divide us so.
I'm just so glad I was brought up by irreligious parents...

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16. Comment #139761 by Colwyn Abernathy on March 6, 2008 at 1:18 pm

 avatar"The whole history of the progress of human liberty shows that all concessions yet made to her august claims have been born of earnest struggle. . . .If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters." -Frederick Douglass

Without questions, there can be no knowledge. As long as religion refuses to question even its most dearly held tenets and beliefs, it will forever be resistant to reason, growth, and reform. It fears questions, because to enlighten its followers would mean their dissolution, and ultimately, its destruction.

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17. Comment #139764 by Goldy on March 6, 2008 at 1:21 pm

If someone tells me they de-converted in a matter of months or weeks - I'm skeptical. It is likely that they; 1) had serious doubts from as far back as childhood, or 2) they were not heavily indoctinated in the first place. For me, it took about 3 years of consistant study.

It is this that makes me feel like Dawkins when he talks of religion being child abuse (I paraphrase - but I think we all know what he meant). However, I have to try and think on the other side - if this fear of Hell is real, then I can see why parents would want to keep their children safe. So it isn't child abuse.
The lack of questioning is hard for me to grasp - probably why I am a scientist now :-) I did try the oilfield for a spell, even worked in Alberta and saw the Drumheller Museum (used to drive through Drum when going from Red Deer to Brooks) but the blind acceptance of things because that's how they were was hard. Have to say, though, that as much as Alberta is Canada's Bible belt, Christian mores were not that great in evidence, expecially when coming to sex and moderation!
I can see why there is a chasm between the rational and the religion. We both look at teh same things but our brains just don't process the info the same. Be an interesting study into brain development, methinks :-)

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18. Comment #139766 by Colwyn Abernathy on March 6, 2008 at 1:22 pm

 avatar
The truth isn't that terrible. It is miraculous and wonderful. It is the stubbornness and ignorance that causes the unhappiness.


Agreed. Truth is liberating, and the only way to arrive at the truth is to explore, question, and observe. If we cannot ask the question: "Is this true, or is this simply what I want to be true?" then we will not be able to grow as thinking, conscious beings.

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19. Comment #139768 by bamafreethinker on March 6, 2008 at 1:23 pm

 avatar
I'm just so glad I was brought up by irreligious parents...


In many ways I envy you, but I guess in some ways I'm better off for having experienced what I did. Many of the best lesson I've learned were from mistakes; mostly my own - some from others.

When it's a 2000 year long line of mistakes you don't know who to be angry with, so you just do the best with what you were handed.

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20. Comment #139771 by Colwyn Abernathy on March 6, 2008 at 1:27 pm

 avatar
In many ways I envy you, but I guess in some ways I'm better off for having experienced what I did. Many of the best lesson I've learned were from mistakes; mostly my own - some from others.


A good point. It is our experiences that partly shape who we eventually become, and even that becoming is in a state of flux, ie: you aren't the same person today as you were yesterday. At some point in everyone's life, we must take responsibility for our own growth (or lack of) and our own actions and words.

When it's a 2000 year long line of mistakes you don't know who to be angry with, so you just do the best with what you were handed.

Anger isn't necessarily a prerequisite for such a long line of 'mistakes', so long as you view them as that, instead of intentional misleading out of fear, ignorance, and resistance to change. It's disheartening to be unable to share such enlightenment and exhaultation of the liberating power of knowledge and discovery. Especially with people we care the most about.

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21. Comment #139773 by Vaal on March 6, 2008 at 1:30 pm

 avatar
"He has flirted with atheism but found it too depressing."


Really? For such an intelligent man, I find that comment baffling, especially considering his career. I would say just the opposite. The religious world is a small narcissistic world with narrow horizons, poor answers and displaying incomprehensible arrogance. To be free of that appalling and limited dogma is empowering and illuminating.

As Carl Sagan says so eloquently..

In some respects, science has far surpassed religion in delivering awe. How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, "This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed"? Instead they say, "No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way."

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22. Comment #139774 by black wolf on March 6, 2008 at 1:32 pm

 avatarThis article is a great contribution to the site and the internet as a whole. It could help much if creationists who have even slight doubts read it. However, many would reject it as a full fabrication or a distortion of some unknown mysterious secret document, especially when they believe that rd.net is a complete deceit. I wouldn't put it beneath many of them to even spread that lie across the web, as that is a strategy they frequently follow, even regarding their own sources (see Wedge).

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23. Comment #139775 by D'Arcy on March 6, 2008 at 1:33 pm

 avatarThis sort of story makes me glad that my upbringing never involved any belief in supernatural beings. There are problems enough in growing up, but at least I didn't have to deal with what Godfrey went / is going through.

Religion really does affect people's take on reality. I mean, what is the problem with a 4.5 billion year old Earth? It makes a lot of sense to me.

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24. Comment #139777 by bamafreethinker on March 6, 2008 at 1:35 pm

 avatar
Truth is liberating,


How true! I remember the day (about 6 years ago) as if it were yesterday.. I just finished reading Remsberg's 500 page "The Christ" and it hit me like a ton of bricks… It's all bullshit!!! The next few days I was on cloud nine â€" hugging my family and friends, appreciating the planet around me as was never possible before that moment.

In some ways it was like the Neo experience in the Matrix when he realized the truth was not as rosy as the lie he had been living, but it was the TRUTH!!!

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25. Comment #139778 by rod-the-farmer on March 6, 2008 at 1:35 pm

 avatarGreat article. As a long time (life long ? well, at least since about 10) atheist, I can sympathise with those who are reluctant to stand up in front of family and neighbours. Lucky for me, those of my relatives who are big bible believers, are at least willing to accept me as a nice person, notwithstanding my beliefs about Dog. The JW's came to the door a few months ago, and I said "Boy did you come to the wrong house, I am a militant athiest. Sorry my driveway is 1/4 mile long." My next-door neighbour, an elderly lady, has a lot of relatives in the area. I do what I can (plow her driveway, cut parts of her lawn) as a "good neighbour", to make up for the occasional profanity she might hear when I whack my thumb with a hammer, etc. Or maybe the JW's told this rural community about the devil living next door to her.

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26. Comment #139788 by bamafreethinker on March 6, 2008 at 1:48 pm

 avatar
Really? For such an intelligent man, I find that comment baffling,,


Me too, but I remember a phase when I was sitting on the fence, grieving over the fact that I would not be seeing my dead grandmother or my dear nephew who died in a car accident at 18 a few months earlier. But as soon as you cross that line and realize that no matter how great the concept of heaven is, it's just wishful thinking, you drop that thinking in a second and start appreciating what we do have. I remember when I finally came to grips that there was no Santa Clause; I still had my family and the toys kept coming... that was good enough!

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27. Comment #139811 by Adam Morrison on March 6, 2008 at 2:18 pm

 avatarRod,

If you don't mind my asking, what part of Canada do you live in? (Curiosity mostly)

It's a little creepy how out of the way JW's will go. I was living on a lake an hour outside of Edmonton for a while, with no city or town in the immediate area and had one knock on my door at 10 in the morning. I get a kick out of how they always say 'Does 'so-and-so' still live here, just trying to get their foot in the door. The last place I lived had the same people in it for 10 years and allegedly 'a friend of theirs lived here a year ago'. Apparently it's ok to lie if its to get converts.

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28. Comment #139822 by mmurray on March 6, 2008 at 2:27 pm

 avatarHe looks a bit like Stephen J. Godfrey with that moustache.

I guess it is worth noting, for all the Americans who think they are getting picked on on this website, that this is about Canada.

Having been raised a Catholic and attended some Catholic schools it amazes me how many brands of Christian lunacy there are. I got told some really stupid things but I nobody, including the Marist Brother who taught me biology in Year 11, would have suggested that the earth was 6000 years old.

Why didn't he just decide that all the things that didn't make sense were put there by God to test his faith? That is the usual catch all solution to these problems.

Michael

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29. Comment #139836 by rod-the-farmer on March 6, 2008 at 2:40 pm

 avatarAdam Morrison
I live in south west Ontario, in a really rural area. Right on the migratory bird path. Today about a dozen tundra swans flew over, honking a bit.

Anyone interested in birds will enjoy this site

http://www.birds.cornell.edu/AllAboutBirds/BirdGuide/

as it includes bird calls.

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30. Comment #139838 by Bonzai on March 6, 2008 at 2:43 pm

If JW come visit, we'll invite them back with a couple of Mormons, conservative Muslims and evangelical Christians. Serve them tea and let them fight it out in the living room. This will be so cool.

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31. Comment #139845 by Teratornis on March 6, 2008 at 2:48 pm

 avatarIn reply to comment #139759 by Slyer:

Oh why must religion divide us so.


Because humans only reliably unite around facts, which all sane humans have some degree of common access to, and all religions (as far as I have seen) refuse to limit themselves to facts, or even to fully respect such facts as are available.

Instead, religions prioritize "faith," which essentially means the collective imaginings of various groups of people.

Since collective imaginings are unconstrained by any reality, they constantly mutate and evolve into contradictory schisms. Religions evolve much like other things we know to be social constructs: music, art, architecture, money, politics, fashion, cuisine, sports, etc.

This wouldn't be so bad but for the weird human tendency to become so emotionally possessed by their beliefs, and religious beliefs in particular.

For example, the social construct of music also schisms like crazy, with the various schisms occasionally inspiring fanatical loyalty, but fans of different musical styles rarely conduct suicide bombing missions over their differences in musical tastes. That's because music fans have not received systematic lifelong instruction to believe their music is the only true music and all other music must be eliminated. Few people view music as anything more than a product for personal consumption.

Rationalists may feel similar emotional attachments to their pet theories, and may feel emotional distress when someone presents contradictory evidence, but as rationalists we consciously strive toward the ideal that all our beliefs are subject to re-evaluation in light of new evidence. At least intellectually we understand, whether our emotions always come along for the ride, that having someone else correct us makes us even more likely to be correct in the future.

Religion is based on the fantastic proposition that it's possible to get all the way to The Answer for free. Divine Revelation offers a way to skip over all the hard work of reasoning things out, and is therefore and thereafter immune to any reasonable second-guessing.

Even if Divine Revelation may actually exist, i.e., if some particular religion has in fact got it right, there is no method available to humans which can distinguish genuine Divine Revelation from the thousands of mutually contradictory collective imaginings.

Which is to say, collective imagining is clearly easy for people to mistake for Divine Revelation. Therefore, rather than ask why religion is divisive, a better question is to ask why religious conflicts and wars are not ubiquitous and continuous, rather than merely widespread and frequent.

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32. Comment #139876 by Deepthought on March 6, 2008 at 3:41 pm

 avatarGood article, and it brings up a good point. I think that people like Stephen Godfrey and other Young Earth Creationists that converted to evolutionism could help those who have doubts about YEC and give them evolution. I think that it is perfectly fine to have an imaginary friend, so long as it doesn't block your thought processes and reasoning. I have a friend who winces the same way I do when he hears about Young Earth Creationists and he is a christian. I think he only goes to church for three reasons which are:

1. Faith
2. Friends
3. A good pastor

I am fine with this kind of religion. It doesn't affect his life but keeps him happy. My own mother has a strange deistic type of the Christian God. It's like she is a deist who has been hanging around Christians for most of her life so it rubs off on her. Again this is fine with me.

To me, trying to force atheism on people would be just as bad as forcing religion on them. I'm not saying that atheism is a religion, but forcing people to accept it is just as bad. The best thing to do would be to teach them, not atheism, but science and scientific methodology.

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33. Comment #139896 by Teratornis on March 6, 2008 at 4:20 pm

 avatarIn reply to comment #139773 by Vaal:


"He has flirted with atheism but found it too depressing."

Really? For such an intelligent man, I find that comment baffling, especially considering his career. I would say just the opposite. The religious world is a small narcissistic world with narrow horizons, poor answers and displaying incomprehensible arrogance. To be free of that appalling and limited dogma is empowering and enlightening.


You can say that about religion, because you aren't currently mired in that particular tarpit, but how about something you are currently accustomed to having?

In the U.S., for example, our esteemed Pres. Bush tells us we are "addicted to oil." While petroleum has thousands of uses in modern economies, perhaps the most pervasive and central use is to power autonomous vehicles. In the U.S., 97% of energy for transportation comes from petroleum. When Pres. Bush says we are addicted oil, he is euphemistically saying we are addicted to automobiles.

While it may be difficult to believe, there are a few thoughtful people, even in the U.S., who have considered the pros and cons of our national cult of mass automobility (our true state religion), and concluded it would be best to live car-free. For example, such people have thought about issues such as:

1. Car-nage, the 9/11 worth of violent slaughter that occurs every month on U.S. roads. We were all shocked by 9/11, but the overwhelmingly greater violence on our roads hardly draws notice. Even in Israel during the height of suicide attacks from Palestinians, traffic accidents killed Israelis at twice the rate. Yet at no time did such accidents receive worldwide publicity, nor were they regarded as a threat to Israel's survival as a nation.

2. The obesity epidemic, along with research which finds the most motorized populations to be the most overweight. To a first approximation, the more people drive, the fatter they are, with an array of negative consequences for their physical and mental health. (With humans, all generalizations are necessarily approximate. There are some obese people who do not use automobiles, and some slender people who drive frequently, but the overall trend is for motorized populations to get fatter, and we see this trend in nations such as China which are rapidly motorizing.)

3. Incivility - it is common for people who get along well enough with other people in social settings to become seething, angry maniacs behind the wheel. For a technology we claim to cherish so much, the automobile certainly seems to stress many people and make them dangeously antisocial.

3.a. The trash that collects on every roadside suggests automobiles promote a sort of borderline-sociopathic disconnection from the environment. Many people casually throw trash from cars because cars enable them to speed away from the consequences of soiling their environment.

4. Support for Islam - the U.S. is the world's largest oil importer; Saudi Arabia is the world's largest exporter; not surprisingly, therefore, Saudi Arabia is the second largest supplier of oil imports to the U.S., growing both absolutely and percentage-wise as other exporters enter their terminal production declines. The other oil-rich Muslim countries (except for Iran, with whom the U.S. does not officially trade) also export vast quantities of petroleum to the U.S. in exchange for vast quantities of money. Most of the world's remaining oil sits under Muslim populations, who tend not to like the U.S. very much. What will they do with all the money we are hurling at them?

The Saudi monarchy does not officially sponsor terrorism, and in fact is fighting al-Qaeda on its own soil, but the Saudi monarchy does lavish billions of its petrodollars to promote and export its state religion of Wahabbism. Many private Saudi citizens are awash in discretionary petrodollars and quietly fund Sunni insurgents in Iraq and elsewhere. A pretty good argument could be made that the state religion of Saudi Arabia, which we have helped to finance, had much to do with creating the credulous population that reads the Quran literally and supports the idea of suicide terrorism. I.e., it is not an oversimplification to claim that wasting gas supports terrorism. It is also not unreasonable to ask why so many people who claim to oppose terrorism appear completely unconcerned about their travel junkie habits of driving cars whenever they feel the urge, and jetting around the world to exchange ideas and socialize. The disconnect between claimed beliefs and personal behavior is breathtaking.

I doubt many U.S. citizens could rationally square their support for the Saudi government, and yet they keep right on driving as if gasoline appears at filling station by magic. The level of denial is actually far deeper and more pervasive than in religion - because religious people do routinely entertain doubts and questions about their faith.

In contrast, it seems Americans lack any capacity to question the automobile. I've had many people ask me why I do not own an automobile, and when I ask them to first tell me if they can imagine some reasons for my behavior, they usually cannot coherently formulate any of the important ones. At best, they might think of environmentalism as a motive, and while it is a good one, it is not nearly the most important, nor the most plainly relevant and obvious.

5. The sheer insanity of basing one's personal life, and the economy of one's country, on a single specific finite commodity whose supply is almost certain to fall catastrophically short of demand in the near future. We are seeing the beginning of this even now, as petroleum prices regularly punch through one price "barrier" after another.

The more a person examines the facts about mass automobility, as opposed to merely going with the flow of received automobile culture (which runs at least three generations deep in most parts of the U.S. now, and has become ever-more ubiquitous and entrenched during our past six decades of accelerating urban sprawl), the more that person must conclude it is insane to persist in being a gaswasting travel junkie, and that the only reasonable course of action is to live, insofar as possible, "car-light" or "car-free".

Now, most people who are addicted to cars would not picture the sharply curtailed use, or absence of, an automobile to constitute any sort of "freedom." This includes the 99% or so of U.S. citizens who are currently indulging in the consensus trance, which holds we can continue to live forever as we have lived since the post-WWII economic boom.

This is the default mindset in the U.S. Breaking out of this mindset requires at least as much personal study and effort as breaking out of religion.

I know because I have personally broken out of both mindsets.

Without any intention to be hostile, I submit this idea for you to consider: to understand how hard it was for Stephen Godfrey to break out of the consensus trance of his religious upbringing, consider how difficult it is for automobile addicts, who aren't even consciously aware of their addiction to a set of propositions even more absurd and dangerous than the propositions of young-earth creationism, to break out of the automobile consensus trance.

If you yourself are a present victim of the automobile consensus trance, then consider what sort of social impact you would experience by choosing not to drive a car again. As long as you are surrounded by friends, family, and a larger society who lack any capacity to think clearly about the problems caused by automobiles, your decision to think clearly on this subject would have enormous impact on your life, and much of it would be difficult. You would find yourself having to swim against a raging social current. People all around you would routinely, perhaps unconsciously, feel threatened by your nonconformism, and try to pressure you to rejoin the consensus trance.

Even if you disagree that there is any reason to question the automobile, just try living without one anyway in a culture where everybody uses one. It's very hard to violate the social norms of one's tribe.

That's what Stephen Godfrey confronts. Particularly as he is literally "sleeping with the enemy," i.e., he chose his wife partly on the basis of their once-deeply-shared religious beliefs. So now he is bound daily into a family life, with a corresponding network of social links, that he cannot back out of even temporarily. He probably lacks the comforts of solitude and contemplation, which can be wonderful antidotes to social pressure. It's much easier to think for yourself when you live alone.

But I do have to admit, as I read the article describing his emotional woes, I kept thinking to myself, "Come on brother, grow a pair."

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34. Comment #139910 by Duff on March 6, 2008 at 5:23 pm

Rodthefarmer,
I thought I would laugh myself to death. I also live at the end of a quarter of a mile driveway and when the JWs came to my door, I also said, "man, have you come to the wrong place." Where upon I reamed them a new one.

I have more than two hundred immediate relatives who are serious mormon christians! I am about to educate all of them.

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35. Comment #139933 by GordonYKWong on March 6, 2008 at 6:58 pm

 avatarhey Teratonis,

Have you written all that in a blog somewhere? If you do/did I would like to link it.

I am not an environmentalist/greenie/peacenik, but very intrigue by your views. Deep down I know what you are saying makes perfect sense but cars are just so addictive. I have only been driving for less than 3 years (I am 30 yo) and boom... I am sucked into it.

I miss my bike :'-(

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36. Comment #139952 by SPS on March 6, 2008 at 7:44 pm

Rod,
You're hilarious! I always enjoy reading your posts.
Teratornis,
I very much agree with you in principle. Preferable choices can be made, but we can't entirely divorce action from intended or unintended consequence. And then we are left with the problem of what level of consequence is acceptable and to whom. I think the solution may lie in the effort to bring our intentions in line with our collective and individual desires, rather than giving up one side for the other.
Regarding the article, and the struggle to move away from creationist fables, I like this quote by Carl Sagan from his Cosmos series:
I saw east Africa and thought, "a few million years ago we humans took our first steps there. Our brains grew and changed. The old parts began to be guided by the new parts, and this made us human -- with compassion and foresight and reason. But, instead, we listened to that reptilian voice within us, counseling fear, territoriality and aggression. We accepted the products of science; we rejected its methods."


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37. Comment #139957 by Podaar on March 6, 2008 at 8:04 pm

 avatar
I have more than two hundred immediate relatives who are serious mormon christians! I am about to educate all of them.


Good luck with that! I've lived my entire life surrounded by Mormons and I've only ever convinced one that it was a good idea to question their belief and especially the origin of their religion… and I'm convinced she was well on her way to an "atheist epiphany" already. I remember the anger on her face when…halfway through reading "No Man Knows My History" she suddenly dropped the book on the coffee table and said, "I can't believe they shoveled this shit at me my whole life." It was incredibly uplifting to see the shadow rise from her mind.

She happens to be the love of my life and wife now. Lucky me! < /babbling >

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38. Comment #139960 by jonjermey on March 6, 2008 at 8:11 pm

I came across a wonderful quote some years ago: 'You can't talk someone out of something they weren't talked into'. A slight exaggeration but largely true; and this is why ditching religion will be a generational change rather than a sudden one. What will promote the change is the gradual realisation by believers that atheists are all around them, that they're normal healthy people, lovers, friends, bosses, colleagues... it gets harder and harder to demonise someone when your life is inextricably bound up with theirs. And the best way we can cause that to happen is for us to stand up proudly and be counted.

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39. Comment #139963 by MPhil on March 6, 2008 at 8:20 pm

 avatarPodaar,

a moving story.
My girlfriend happens to be from a deeply religious family as well. She was indoctrinated ever since early childhood - and is a choir member, works with children-groups at church and whatnot.

It took about two months of being together with me until she became an atheist. But she hasn't told her family yet. I know them and think they're generally very nice people. I even was a classmate of her older sister for 3 years.
She has a very loving relationship with her family - but she thinks (and sadly, I believe her) that they could never accept her being an atheist. She thinks they would be so immensely disappointed, enraged and sad that they couldn't accept it.

One night she lay in my arms - and cried for an hour because of this.

I cannot tell you how much I hate religion for that!


Maybe your story might help - how did your wife handle that?

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40. Comment #139970 by discipline on March 6, 2008 at 9:13 pm

> ditching religion will be a generational change
> rather than a sudden one

Exactly. Here in the rural southern US, we are literally generations away from Dawkins-style pure scientific rationalism. The first step is a complete overhaul of public school science education and serious restrictions on Christian homeschooling.I'm not holding my breath.

For now, we need to encourage and support moderate/liberal Christianity as a first step toward a more secular society, contrary to what Richard and Sam Harris might think. It's likely a different situation in Europe, but in the US we have to think pragmatically -- after all, 50-60% of Americans are creationists. We have a long way to go.

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41. Comment #139985 by Mitchell Gilks on March 6, 2008 at 10:33 pm

 avatarHa! I was raised in a fundementalist christian family that believed all that crap too. I never did, I did buy into some of the objections of evolution when I was like 13, though I never embraced creationism, as I never believed in that God stuff. It always was over my head, and I'm a pretty conceited fellow. I consider myself to be considerably smarter than my parents, and their friends, so them being able to understand it, and me not being able to grasp it, just didn't fly. I came to the conclusion that it just must be nonsense that they are pretending to understand when I was about 12 I think.

My accepting evolution went as follows:
some stupid objection I thought made sense, followed by a clear and comprehencive answer that seemed so obvious I felt like a tool. Which repeated for all of my objections. I then decided to actually read about the theory instead of embarrassing myself again. After becoming marginally aquainted with the theory, I decided it was overwhelmingly the best explanation, and had far more backing then I ever dreammed, and an answer to every conceivable objection that could be raised.

I also found it quite addicting to watch and read such amazingly intelligent and inspiring people dicuss science. Something I hadn't experienced before.

By the time I was 16 I was arguing it constantly with everyone. It wasn't until I was 19 that I actually came accross the term atheist though, and found out what it meant. I knew instantly that is what I've always been.

When I hear Christopher Hitchens use the quote from Pascel, saying how he is addressed "those so made that they cannot believe." That always speaks to me directly, I am such a person as well.

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42. Comment #139988 by Roy_H on March 6, 2008 at 10:54 pm

 avatar"By day, quarrying through thin layers of rock, "we started to come across footprints of terrestrial animals," says Godfrey. "You can't imagine a global flood and animals finding ground to make footprints on. … That, more than anything, any other experience in my life, really shook me to the core." Godfrey agonized about where these footprints might have come from. Some creationists argue for floating mats of vegetation during the flood, but Godfrey found that unconvincing."
I nearly fell of my chair laughing at that one!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS5vid4GkEY
17 short videos entitled "Why do people laugh at creationists?" there are more gems like that on there.

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43. Comment #139998 by mothwentbad on March 6, 2008 at 11:24 pm

The following quote has been under fire a lot this thread:

He has flirted with atheism but found it too depressing. Several years ago, he stopped attending church for a year before returning. He believes in God today, he says, but tomorrow may be different.


The answers I've seen look kind of obtuse or disingenuous or something else. What could possibly be so depressing about the liberating power of atheism? The inevitable and permanent extinguishment of you and everyone you will ever know on this Earth. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. This is why Jesus brings more people to bake sales than Cthulhu. It's a harder sell then you're acting like you think it is - trading in your belief in the blissful persistence of your soul after death for a few decades to build your understanding of the natural world on a sounder foundation.

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44. Comment #140039 by Animavore on March 7, 2008 at 12:04 am

 avatarI really don't know how to take this article, one part of me is saying 'get over it,' but that's easy for me to say growing up in Ireland were evolution is accepted, standard fact, I never even heard about creationists until 2 years ago when I first read The God Delusion, the other half is trying to show empathy although he did achieve something I didn't. When I was an early teen I once pronounced to my parents that I didn't believe in religion expecting a reaction. Turns out they didn't believe it either. I felt like that bloke out of Little Britain, 'I'm the only atheist in the village.' I guess the clue was my father never went to church with us. Mum must've felt like she had to. Once I stopped going my brother and sister stopped and my ma stopped too. My little sis had 5 years less of church then me the bitch.

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45. Comment #140094 by mrjonno on March 7, 2008 at 12:54 am

What is depressing about atheism?

The only purpose in life are the ones you create or find (ie you aren't given a crap made up one via a 2000 year old hate filled story book)

When you die thats it , and you will die! scary stuff

When your friends/relatives die you will not see them again, they are gone the end!

The only justice system is the one that a flawed society can create, ie the innocent will sometimes suffer and the guilty will go free

The universe is a cold amoral place and the morality and warmth in it are what human beings bring to it. That in itself is a scary thing

People are religious because its the easy answer, rationality may be liberating but it is hard, it takes effort. Far simpler to say 'god did it'.

Want to understand how the universe works spend a dozen life times studying different branches of science? or get told 'god did it'

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46. Comment #140113 by rod-the-farmer on March 7, 2008 at 1:18 am

 avatarThanks, SPS. Glad you enjoy my posts. I am notorious in my family for my puns, and have made a few here, which seem to have escaped notice. Of course, a local cringe may not cause a disparaging post. I am still considering if I am strong enough to come completely out, like Steve Zara. Real name, with a picture. I am easily recognisable from my picture, but only to those who know me. If I put my real name on as well, that pulls my trousers down in front of the world. I am a bit like the subject of the article....concerned that there are friends & relatives out there who will think badly of me for being such a vocal atheist. I can handle their disgust over my puns. What does that say about me ?

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47. Comment #140122 by epeeist on March 7, 2008 at 1:34 am

 avatarComment #139724 by bamafreethinker

My parents are just too old (75 and 79) to think about things like this and I don't think their heart could handle knowing that I'm not a believer. I stay in the closet to protect them from the stress I suppose.

Commendable, and it would be fine if it worked both ways.

My father's family are Catholics, but my father was a staunch Marxist of the Trotskyist persuasion. When he died we had a Catholic funeral, purely for the benefit of the family, it wasn't something he would have wanted.

It didn't stop the priest at the funeral attacking the idea of Communism and claiming that my father had come back to the fold.

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48. Comment #140137 by irate_atheist on March 7, 2008 at 2:01 am

 avatar47. Comment #140122 by epeeist -

When I'm buried, I want to to be stuck in a hole in the ground in a nearby forest. No vicars (except for close relations and friends) allowed

This plan has the added bonus that it may give the local coppers something to worry about for a change.


Haw Haw Haw.

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49. Comment #140150 by YssiBoo on March 7, 2008 at 2:30 am

 avatarI saw the posts on JW and just wanted to respond with a question. I have never had the dubious pleasure of being visited by them, but part of me wish for it. I'm not really that confrontational, but I am interested in what they actually use for arguments. The closest I have come is the elderly ppl in my town quietly holding up the watchtower magazine.

My question then is: What are their conversion tactics after they have forced their way in? (I guess they are somewhat organized in this.)

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50. Comment #140152 by rod-the-farmer on March 7, 2008 at 2:34 am

 avatarThe best response I ever saw, and I think it was here, was to ask JW's about blood transfusions. Apparently they only began objecting to it around 1945, but transfusion technology was essentially perfected 50 years earlier.

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