Sunday, March 9, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version

Oklahoma: One Step from Doom

by Bad Astronomy

Oklahoma: One Step from Doom

http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2008/03/09/oklahoma-one-step-from-doom/

The Oklahoma House of Representatives has passed a bill that says that a student can receive a passing grade in an Earth Science class if they say that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the Earth an hour ago, and then planted false memories into every single living creature on Earth to make it seem like they've been around longer.

Of course, that's not the intent of the bill. The intent is that a student can say the Earth is 6000 years old and still get a passing grade. The bill itself says that a student cannot be graded down if they say that what they are being taught interferes with their religious beliefs.

Specifically, the bill states:

A school district shall treat a student's voluntary expression of a religious viewpoint, if any, on an otherwise permissible subject in the same manner the district treats a student's voluntary expression of a secular or other viewpoint on an otherwise permissible subject and may not discriminate against the student based on a religious viewpoint expressed by the student on an otherwise permissible subject.

It's the "otherwise permissible subject" phrase that's sticky. That can easily be interpreted as meaning tests, besides just normal classroom discussion.

For a long time, I have been disquieted by the fact that many people want to give patently ridiculous ideas as much standing as reality. One problem with this is that once you open the door to fantasy, any and all flavors of it can walk on through, as in the example above. But it also elevates fantasy to the same level as reality, and that is simply wrong.

I taught a few classes back when I was a grad student. If someone had answered a question on a test saying the Earth was 6000 years old, I would have marked it as incorrect. That's because — and sit down for this breaking news — that answer is wrong. The student could complain, they could take it to the dean, the president, the Supreme Court for all I care — I wouldn't have backed down. Wrong is wrong.

I don't care what your religious belief is, there are some things that are simple facts. An object with mass has gravity. A lump of lithium dropped into water will create heat and hydrogen gas. An accelerating charged particle will emit radiation. These are facts. It doesn't matter what you believe: reality is that which, when you go to sleep, doesn't go away.

What I find most ironic about this legislation — and there is a rich, rich field of irony to choose from — is that it was passed by conservatives, people who no doubt would rail against political correctness and relativism (for example, the bill's primary author, Sally Kern, has spoken clearly about her being against "the gay lifestyle" — she even compares being gay to cancer), yet this is exactly what this legislation is all about. The problem here is that they are trying to legislate relativistic reality. And that's simply wrong.

And it's not like they have to go far to see what a disaster this bill will create: Texas is already in a peck o' trouble for passing a similar law.

This bill still has to pass Oklahoma's state Senate before it becomes a law. If that happens, Oklahoma will have taken a long stride back into the Dark Ages. I'll be honest: if I were an employer, or a University recruiter, and the bill becomes law, I would look very skeptically at any application that came to my desk from a student who graduated in Oklahoma. That makes me sad, but that is the reality Oklahoma is aiming toward.

For more about this horrid bill, check out Oklahomans for Excellence in Science Education. Also, evidently this bill will also allow the straightforward teaching of religion in school. Mainstream Baptist has something to say about that.

Hat tip to ERV.

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1. Comment #141052 by Inferno on March 9, 2008 at 9:59 pm

You cannot make this stuff up. Can you? Please tell me you can!

Other Comments by Inferno

2. Comment #141054 by Nephite on March 9, 2008 at 10:40 pm

They just keep on coming. My fellow Americans, you can help by becoming a member of the National Center for Science Education if you haven't already.

Other Comments by Nephite

3. Comment #141055 by JD Cherry on March 9, 2008 at 10:40 pm

I wonder if a student in a history or social studies class could hide under this bill while claiming that homosexuals and witches caused 9/11.

Also, doesn't this mean that a lazy student is GUARANTEED a pass if they simply use religion to get themselves out of learning the facts?

Maybe there should be some sort of a test to make sure of the legitimacy of the child's belief. Like for example, if the kid eats shellfish or trims the corners of his beard he can't take the bible TOO literally.

Other Comments by JD Cherry

4. Comment #141056 by cyris8400 on March 9, 2008 at 10:41 pm

Son of a whore! I'm Oklahoman.

Other Comments by cyris8400

5. Comment #141057 by Greyman on March 9, 2008 at 10:57 pm

"Oklahoma families need to know their children will not be persecuted for exercising their constitutional rights and expressing religious beliefs at school," said Reynolds, R-Oklahoma City. "While students and guest speakers can't use state resources to proselytize, they have every right to express their personal beliefs and should be given the same protections afforded non-religious or even anti-religious officials."

Um, what exactly are these special protections non-religious Oklahomans currently enjoy? O.o

Other Comments by Greyman

6. Comment #141058 by robotaholic on March 9, 2008 at 11:03 pm

oh wow - i am in norman from OU and wow- oklahoma is kind of cool but not this

Other Comments by robotaholic

7. Comment #141059 by tman on March 9, 2008 at 11:31 pm

BUUUULLLLLLSHIIIIT!

Well there you go want a "real" education you have to move! This better be protested and in the news.

What were they thinking. It's science class. Ummm how can we make our state look ridiculously stupid.

Other Comments by tman

8. Comment #141060 by HitbLade on March 9, 2008 at 11:42 pm

Shhhhhhhhhh! Don't break the spell!

I'm reading it now, they should too. Morons. Take a look in Sweden, where it is against the law to teach creationism/ID in private schools.

So basically it has turned into "science-or-whatever-you-like"???

Other Comments by HitbLade

9. Comment #141061 by NormanDoering on March 9, 2008 at 11:51 pm

You cannot make this stuff up. Can you? Please tell me you can!

Yes, you can make it up. The Onion does it all the time. And if you watch "Little Bush" on the Comedy channel in one show that's the argument for being religious -- you don't have to study as hard.

Other Comments by NormanDoering

10. Comment #141063 by JamesDB on March 10, 2008 at 12:34 am

Where are the people standing up to this when it gets brought up in the first place. It shouldn't even get the time of day. Hopefully once this set of wackos has retired away the younger generation won't tolerate people coming forward with ideas like this.
Sad times for yet another american state.
I say all you secularists down there come on up to canada, we have more then enough room to spare for the enlightened. Then you won't have to put up with all this bs.

Other Comments by JamesDB

11. Comment #141064 by kungfucat on March 10, 2008 at 12:38 am

While all this is going on China is just laughing it's ass off.

Will "American Science" be an oxymoron in say a 100 years.

Other Comments by kungfucat

12. Comment #141065 by JamesDB on March 10, 2008 at 12:38 am

Oh and we also have stronger beer;)

Other Comments by JamesDB

13. Comment #141067 by Simon Sherbourne on March 10, 2008 at 1:10 am

Just a moment, isn't the quote from the bill saying precisely what we would wish it to? It says that religious views must be treated in the same way as non-religious views.

Now, the non-religiously influenced answer, 2 2=5, would be marked as incorrect. As religious expressions are to be treated equally and without prejudice, the answer that the universe is 6000 years old _must_ also be marked as incorrect, or be in violation of the bill...

Looked at from another angle, the bill gives equal protection to secular views, which could be useful where a school board is controlled by the religious.

If the intention of this bill, with this wording, was to allow religious views to be accepted as 'correct' in science classes, then it is unusable, because if you accept that reading you must concede that 2 2=5 is also valid, as 'an expression of the student's secular views'.

Other Comments by Simon Sherbourne

14. Comment #141068 by The Reverend Dark on March 10, 2008 at 1:22 am

If you are interested in hearing what a homophobic, hate-mongering, twat Sally Kerns is (she's the bill's primary author)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPB7bTdz2xQ
(Be warned - this is pretty offensive stuff)

This is an elected official?

This lady does not have a screw loose - she doesn't have one screw completely tightened.

And people elected her?
The Reverend Shayne Dark

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

15. Comment #141069 by Stublore on March 10, 2008 at 1:31 am

And it's not like they have to go far to see what a disaster this bill will create: Texas is already in a peck o' trouble for passing a similar law.
The link above in the article did not work for me, I think this is the article:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/viewpoints/stories/DN-miller_27edi.ART.State.Edition1.425343c.html

Other Comments by Stublore

16. Comment #141071 by bamboospitfire on March 10, 2008 at 1:45 am

Sally Kerns is an evil, evil woman. However, I had to chuckle when she began speaking about indoctrination of children being a bad thing. Replace the word "homosexuality" with "Christianity" and I couldn't agree with her more.

Other Comments by bamboospitfire

17. Comment #141072 by Pundane on March 10, 2008 at 2:05 am

This is hilarious if only it wasn't true. Truely saddening. Reminds me of a few Calvin and Hobbes where faith is used as an excuse not to learn.

Other Comments by Pundane

18. Comment #141074 by YssiBoo on March 10, 2008 at 2:12 am

I trust that such legislation will serve to rally all secular forces in the US. The country which has contributed the most to scientific advancement during the last hundred years will continue to do so in the future I think.

Other Comments by YssiBoo

19. Comment #141075 by Sans foi ni dieu on March 10, 2008 at 2:13 am

Ridiculous. If any of us wanted to take a theology class and pass it fair and square, we would have to study their point of view and provide answers based on that. It doesn't mean that you have to believe any of it. For some reason that same fairness doesn't have to be forced upon those theists. How pitifully christian of them.

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20. Comment #141077 by rod-the-farmer on March 10, 2008 at 2:19 am

(shakes head) I thought for a minute I had somehow clicked on the wrong link, and was reading The Onion. You Oklahomans have my deepest sympathy. You are, like Kansas of a few months back, about to become the laughing stock of the world. Not really fair, but watch the reaction of the worlds media to a few of your elected officials. It will be interesting to observe job interviews for Oklahoma students in the coming years, if this bill stands. On a slightly related topic....anyone have any info on home-schooled students success in getting jobs in high tech industry ? Or even admission to university ?

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

21. Comment #141086 by Vaal on March 10, 2008 at 2:39 am

The bill itself says that a student cannot be graded down if they say that what they are being taught interferes with their religious beliefs.

WHAT!!!!?? How about the Earth being carried on the back of an elephant? Talk about Dumb and Dumber, and this from the nation who put a man on the Moon, and who have probes on Mars and Titan. I am flabbergasted. This sort of nonsense should be fought tooth and nail, or ignorance will become the norm.

I would be very interested in the results of a science test on the cretins who propose this legislation. I expect that they would be shown as utter science dunces. Would they even know that the sun is a star? Somehow I doubt it.

Other Comments by Vaal

22. Comment #141090 by irate_atheist on March 10, 2008 at 2:51 am

I wait to see how this develops.

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23. Comment #141099 by DamnDirtyApe on March 10, 2008 at 3:05 am

I suspect this is going to be a cause of genuine amusement in the near future.

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

24. Comment #141101 by Steve Zara on March 10, 2008 at 3:14 am

and may not discriminate against the student based on a religious viewpoint expressed by the student on an otherwise permissible subject.

If I were marking work on the subject of evolution and someone claimed that evolution could not have happened because the Earth was only a few thousand years old, I would not be discriminating based on a religious viewpoint when I marked them wrong. I would be justifiably discriminating based on a biological viewpoint. As a teacher I would be using a well-established priciple called NOSY (Non-Overlapping StupiditY). As a believer in the separation of church and state, it is my duty to separate out, and deal with, apparently well-entangled kinds of ignorance.

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25. Comment #141105 by Geoff on March 10, 2008 at 3:19 am

The best way to show this up is exactly the method suggested in the article. Get someone to use FSM, or a teapot...

http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=111655&in_page_id=2

...in exactly that way.

Other Comments by Geoff

26. Comment #141106 by Roy_H on March 10, 2008 at 3:22 am

Crazy, deluded, backward thinking.
Old Joke. A farmer was showing his farm to a catholic priest. As the priest gazed across the fields at the beautiful looking crops he remarked "You know my son, God and you have made a wonderful job of this farm!" to which the farmer replied "Yes, but you should have seen the land when I first took it over, when God had it to himself!"

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27. Comment #141107 by hungarianelephant on March 10, 2008 at 3:29 am

Simple solution. Since, based on the evidence of this site, creationists can't spell or write grammatical sentences, simply deduct marks for that.

A lawyer's answer. You're welcome.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

28. Comment #141108 by will young on March 10, 2008 at 3:31 am

Son of a whore! I'm Oklahoman.

Me too and as an Okie I intend to do whatever I can to prevent this bill from passing.

Other Comments by will young

29. Comment #141113 by aquilacane on March 10, 2008 at 3:47 am

A few big problems here:

How would a teacher know if the student was right, unless the teacher was educated in that child's specific religion?

Will all teachers be required to know all religions?

By what method will a teacher explain to the children how the same question can have two or more correct answers?

What will the state do with intelligent children who see this as false and refuse to comply?

How ridiculous an answer is permissible as long as it has religious affiliation?

Will any evidence be required to support the religious opinion?

Can a child refuse to answer any and all questions due to religious dogma and still recieve a passign grade.

Must the child answer in their parents religion, or are they permitted to chose their own religion with which to answer the question?

For a better chance at getting the question right, can a child reference multiple religions providing more than one answer to each question?

Is a child permitted to change their religious views to suit the question?

Must the child's opinion be of an organized religion or is the child free to use any religious opinion including their own invented religion?

Since religious opinion can not be questioned, will all answers be deemed correct so long as they are of a religious nature?

If the childs answer is not in keeping with their parent's (or their) religion will it be deemed incorrect or can the child claim their religion to be an offshoot (variant) of the parent religion?

What do teachers teach if the answers are up to the children to provide. Will class be nothing more that questions you take home and fill in based on the bible?

There are more...

This is stupid...

I feel sick... puked in my mouth a bit.

I thought the last nail was in the coffin of the good ol' US of A a while ago, but this really puts the box in the ground for me.

Other Comments by aquilacane

30. Comment #141117 by Tyler Durden on March 10, 2008 at 4:04 am

Comment #141068 by The Reverend Dark

This lady (Sally Kerns) does not have a screw loose - she doesn't have one screw completely tightened.

And people elected her?

Rev, people get the elected officials they deserve. Yep, they elected her. She put her wacky views out there, the people of Oklahoma liked what they heard and *bang* - Sally Kerns represents them.

To be honest, nothing really suprises me anymore when it comes to the battle between science and religion in the U.S.

How very sad!

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

31. Comment #141119 by Wosret on March 10, 2008 at 4:25 am

Bunch o'goons. I can't believe this crap.

JamesDB, it is a misconception that our beer is stronger, the alcohol percentage is only larger because we use a different measurement system. It equates to the same alcohol content.

Other Comments by Wosret

32. Comment #141130 by phasmagigas on March 10, 2008 at 5:10 am

so for earths age a student could put say 6457 years and still get a mark?

i wonder if they have some learned scholar checking these dates?

its amazing the lengths that the christian right will go to get their own way even if it means acting like a big bunch of uberliberal, acid popping, soap opera studies professors.

some students are going to be so excited 'oh, goody, i believe in jesus and i can get a mark too!!'

so i wonder where this could lead, can you imagine a med school student having to explain the reasoning behind using multiple antibiotics in treating infections and he says 'multiple antibiotics not needed as bacteria created by designer as they now stand so no mutations, no evolution, no need for multiple antibiotics' and still gets a mark and still gets to become a doctor. well who knows, as they say, its hard to make this stuff up!

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33. Comment #141131 by Gustaf Sjoblom on March 10, 2008 at 5:10 am

Q: What where the causes of the Great Depression?

A: It was God's punishment for gays, lesbians and feminists.

I guess answers like that will now result in a passing grade. This isn't isolated to nature sciences.

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34. Comment #141140 by phasmagigas on March 10, 2008 at 5:26 am

Ridiculous. If any of us wanted to take a theology class and pass it fair and square, we would have to study their point of view and provide answers based on that. It doesn't mean that you have to believe any of it. For some reason that same fairness doesn't have to be forced upon those theists. How pitifully christian of them.

thats what i was thinking too. so could one go to 'bible class' (whatever that actually is) and start discussing 'descent with modification' and get a pass?

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35. Comment #141155 by scotriani on March 10, 2008 at 6:07 am

I sense material for a new Penn and Teller "Bullshit" episode with this article.

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36. Comment #141157 by Incredulous on March 10, 2008 at 6:15 am

What is really scary about this is that it is just as simple to teach the acientific truth, providing all of the evidence, etc, as it is to simply state that anything goes, as these people are doing.

These people are simply retarding the kiddies and that simply is not fair. Not only that it is robbing future human society of the most important resource of all, trained, thoughtful, enquiring and rational minds.

And why? I have no real idea what the benefit can possibly be in teaching our young people that evidence doesn't matter.

For me, this is real child abuse.

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37. Comment #141158 by cowalker on March 10, 2008 at 6:16 am

I wonder if the teacher could get around this by wording the question as:

According to the text "xxx," the earth is estimated to be 4.5 billion years old. Give three examples of evidence cited in the text to support this conclusion.

As others have remarked, atheists in a theology class would be required to demonstrate knowledge of what was in the Bible, or Koran, or Torah, etc., in order to pass.

There's no reason a student in science class shouldn't be required to demonstrate familiarity with the material in the text used in class, whether they agree with it or not.

Other Comments by cowalker

38. Comment #141169 by noodly_noodleson on March 10, 2008 at 6:28 am

cowalker,
Yes, a clever teacher could beat the system, but that's assuming that they want to. Don't forget, teachers would be part of the voting public that elected these people in the first place.

I say we offer a reward for any student willing to answer "God did it" for every question on every exam.

Hell, I would've done it on any question I didn't know the answer to. It's a fail-proof cheat.

Other Comments by noodly_noodleson

39. Comment #141182 by CJ22 on March 10, 2008 at 6:44 am

The country which has contributed the most to scientific advancement during the last hundred years will continue to do so in the future I think.

[Citation Needed]

Other Comments by CJ22

40. Comment #141197 by NJS on March 10, 2008 at 6:54 am

It's not just science that is affected. I remember studying history and some of the conclusions I was taught being at odds with my burgeoning political views. However being a practical person and wanting to pass the exam I bit my tongue to a degree and towed the party line.

What this is saying is that religion is so important it can transcend that practicality and allow students to be bloody-minded without penalty.

I can only hope if it passes that some kind of case is brought which illustrates perfectly how dangerous this is.

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41. Comment #141198 by AshtonBlack on March 10, 2008 at 6:54 am

I trust that such legislation will serve to rally all secular forces in the US. The country which has contributed the most to scientific advancement during the last hundred years will continue to do so in the future I think.

Yes, the UK will indeed. :p

Other Comments by AshtonBlack

42. Comment #141200 by Elles on March 10, 2008 at 6:56 am

Oh sweet Reason, what has the world come to?

This is all a dream, this is all a dream, this isn't real... Ha! I don't believe it's real, therefore it isn't! Yay!

Other Comments by Elles

43. Comment #141212 by Ygern on March 10, 2008 at 7:08 am

Take a look in Sweden, where it is against the law to teach creationism/ID in private schools

I'm not American, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the Supreme Court has said that it is against the law in the USA too?

Other Comments by Ygern

44. Comment #141237 by Podaar on March 10, 2008 at 7:38 am

When I was a kid, I worked on a landscaping crew that employed a couple of transient workers from Oklahoma--Bob and Andy by name. We sometimes had to explain the day's duties to Bob several times before he would "get it." He would say, "Don't get mad. I'm from Oklahoma...I'm supposed to be dumb."

I never really believed him until now.

-- Gregg

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45. Comment #141250 by Partisan on March 10, 2008 at 7:55 am

I remember being told a story by an exam moderator during my GCSEs (exams taken in the UK at 16) of a student who had written "God knows all the answers" to a question on his Philosophy paper, to which he had been given a zero and the paper returned with the reply "Maybe, but he doesn't give out the marks."

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46. Comment #141262 by BaronOchs on March 10, 2008 at 8:04 am

Old Joke. A farmer was showing his farm to a catholic priest. As the priest gazed across the fields at the beautiful looking crops he remarked "You know my son, God and you have made a wonderful job of this farm!" to which the farmer replied "Yes, but you should have seen the land when I first took it over, when God had it to himself!"

That's a crap joke really. It would work if the farmer irrigated a desert, but not exactly if he cleared a forest or drained a meadow.

Other Comments by BaronOchs

47. Comment #141274 by Palmer_Eldritch on March 10, 2008 at 8:22 am

"Okie use' ta mean you was from Oklahoma. Now it means you're a dirty son-of-a-bitch. Okie means you're scum. Don't mean nothing itself, it's the way they say it."

The Grapes of Wrath (Chapter 18) - John Steinbeck

Other Comments by Palmer_Eldritch

48. Comment #141278 by Sally Luxmoore on March 10, 2008 at 8:25 am

I see Oklahoma isn't on RD's list. Maybe it should be.
Perhaps a comment on this insanity wouldn't go amiss in his talks. (When are we going to see one of them? Every time I log on I think there'll be one to watch.)

Other Comments by Sally Luxmoore

49. Comment #141286 by Alkal on March 10, 2008 at 8:34 am

Considering that it is the same state where representatives make remarks like
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4711

I am not surprised...

Other Comments by Alkal

50. Comment #141300 by LordYuri on March 10, 2008 at 8:47 am

Dammit I am an Okie... >.>
To give you all an idea of the "living conditions" in OKC, there is over 110 churches in Edmond, a city of less than 70,000. There is at least...12 or so within a two mile radius of my apartment next to UCO.
I remember reading somewhere (on the book Scientists Confront Creationism) a story from the 80's where a bill was being considered here for equal-time for the instruction of ID and a school principal i believe from Burns Flat convinced them to kill the bill saying in effect that they teach creation already...why give evolution a foothold? Apologies for not having a better citation.

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