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Friday, March 14, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document The atheist delusion

by Guardian

Reposted from:
http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/politicsphilosophyandsociety/story/0,,2265446,00.html

Opposition to religion occupies the high ground, intellectually and morally,' wrote Martin Amis recently. Over the past few years, leading writers and thinkers have published bestselling tracts against God. John Gray on why the 'secular fundamentalists' have got it all wrong

Saturday March 15, 2008
The Guardian


An atmosphere of moral panic surrounds religion. Viewed not so long ago as a relic of superstition whose role in society was steadily declining, it is now demonised as the cause of many of the world's worst evils. As a result, there has been a sudden explosion in the literature of proselytising atheism. A few years ago, it was difficult to persuade commercial publishers even to think of bringing out books on religion. Today, tracts against religion can be enormous money-spinners, with Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion and Christopher Hitchens's God Is Not Great selling in the hundreds of thousands. For the first time in generations, scientists and philosophers, high-profile novelists and journalists are debating whether religion has a future. The intellectual traffic is not all one-way. There have been counterblasts for believers, such as The Dawkins Delusion? by the British theologian Alister McGrath and The Secular Age by the Canadian Catholic philosopher Charles Taylor. On the whole, however, the anti-God squad has dominated the sales charts, and it is worth asking why.

The abrupt shift in the perception of religion is only partly explained by terrorism. The 9/11 hijackers saw themselves as martyrs in a religious tradition, and western opinion has accepted their self-image. And there are some who view the rise of Islamic fundamentalism as a danger comparable with the worst that were faced by liberal societies in the 20th century.
For Dawkins and Hitchens, Daniel Dennett and Martin Amis, Michel Onfray, Philip Pullman and others, religion in general is a poison that has fuelled violence and oppression throughout history, right up to the present day. The urgency with which they produce their anti-religious polemics suggests that a change has occurred as significant as the rise of terrorism: the tide of secularisation has turned. These writers come from a generation schooled to think of religion as a throwback to an earlier stage of human development, which is bound to dwindle away as knowledge continues to increase. In the 19th century, when the scientific and industrial revolutions were changing society very quickly, this may not have been an unreasonable assumption. Dawkins, Hitchens and the rest may still believe that, over the long run, the advance of science will drive religion to the margins of human life, but this is now an article of faith rather than a theory based on evidence.

It is true that religion has declined sharply in a number of countries (Ireland is a recent example) and has not shaped everyday life for most people in Britain for many years. Much of Europe is clearly post-Christian. However, there is nothing that suggests the move away from religion is irreversible, or that it is potentially universal. The US is no more secular today than it was 150 years ago, when De Tocqueville was amazed and baffled by its all-pervading religiosity. The secular era was in any case partly illusory. The mass political movements of the 20th century were vehicles for myths inherited from religion, and it is no accident that religion is reviving now that these movements have collapsed. The current hostility to religion is a reaction against this turnabout. Secularisation is in retreat, and the result is the appearance of an evangelical type of atheism not seen since Victorian times.

As in the past, this is a type of atheism that mirrors the faith it rejects. Philip Pullman's Northern Lights - a subtly allusive, multilayered allegory, recently adapted into a Hollywood blockbuster, The Golden Compass - is a good example. Pullman's parable concerns far more than the dangers of authoritarianism. The issues it raises are essentially religious, and it is deeply indebted to the faith it attacks. Pullman has stated that his atheism was formed in the Anglican tradition, and there are many echoes of Milton and Blake in his work. His largest debt to this tradition is the notion of free will. The central thread of the story is the assertion of free will against faith. The young heroine Lyra Belacqua sets out to thwart the Magisterium - Pullman's metaphor for Christianity - because it aims to deprive humans of their ability to choose their own course in life, which she believes would destroy what is most human in them. But the idea of free will that informs liberal notions of personal autonomy is biblical in origin (think of the Genesis story). The belief that exercising free will is part of being human is a legacy of faith, and like most varieties of atheism today, Pullman's is a derivative of Christianity.

Zealous atheism renews some of the worst features of Christianity and Islam. Just as much as these religions, it is a project of universal conversion. Evangelical atheists never doubt that human life can be transformed if everyone accepts their view of things, and they are certain that one way of living - their own, suitably embellished - is right for everybody. To be sure, atheism need not be a missionary creed of this kind. It is entirely reasonable to have no religious beliefs, and yet be friendly to religion. It is a funny sort of humanism that condemns an impulse that is peculiarly human. Yet that is what evangelical atheists do when they demonise religion.

A curious feature of this kind of atheism is that some of its most fervent missionaries are philosophers. Daniel Dennett's Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon claims to sketch a general theory of religion. In fact, it is mostly a polemic against American Christianity. This parochial focus is reflected in Dennett's view of religion, which for him means the belief that some kind of supernatural agency (whose approval believers seek) is needed to explain the way things are in the world. For Dennett, religions are efforts at doing something science does better - they are rudimentary or abortive theories, or else nonsense. "The proposition that God exists," he writes severely, "is not even a theory." But religions do not consist of propositions struggling to become theories. The incomprehensibility of the divine is at the heart of Eastern Christianity, while in Orthodox Judaism practice tends to have priority over doctrine. Buddhism has always recognised that in spiritual matters truth is ineffable, as do Sufi traditions in Islam. Hinduism has never defined itself by anything as simplistic as a creed. It is only some western Christian traditions, under the influence of Greek philosophy, which have tried to turn religion into an explanatory theory.

The notion that religion is a primitive version of science was popularised in the late 19th century in JG Frazer's survey of the myths of primitive peoples, The Golden Bough: A Study in Magic and Religion. For Frazer, religion and magical thinking were closely linked. Rooted in fear and ignorance, they were vestiges of human infancy that would disappear with the advance of knowledge. Dennett's atheism is not much more than a revamped version of Frazer's positivism. The positivists believed that with the development of transport and communication - in their day, canals and the telegraph - irrational thinking would wither way, along with the religions of the past. Despite the history of the past century, Dennett believes much the same. In an interview that appears on the website of the Edge Foundation ( www.edge.org) under the title "The Evaporation of the Powerful Mystique of Religion", he predicts that "in about 25 years almost all religions will have evolved into very different phenomena, so much so that in most quarters religion will no longer command the awe that it does today". He is confident that this will come about, he tells us, mainly because of "the worldwide spread of information technology (not just the internet, but cell phones and portable radios and television)". The philosopher has evidently not reflected on the ubiquity of mobile phones among the Taliban, or the emergence of a virtual al-Qaida on the web.

The growth of knowledge is a fact only postmodern relativists deny. Science is the best tool we have for forming reliable beliefs about the world, but it does not differ from religion by revealing a bare truth that religions veil in dreams. Both science and religion are systems of symbols that serve human needs - in the case of science, for prediction and control. Religions have served many purposes, but at bottom they answer to a need for meaning that is met by myth rather than explanation. A great deal of modern thought consists of secular myths - hollowed-out religious narratives translated into pseudo-science. Dennett's notion that new communications technologies will fundamentally alter the way human beings think is just such a myth.

In The God Delusion, Dawkins attempts to explain the appeal of religion in terms of the theory of memes, vaguely defined conceptual units that compete with one another in a parody of natural selection. He recognises that, because humans have a universal tendency to religious belief, it must have had some evolutionary advantage, but today, he argues, it is perpetuated mainly through bad education. From a Darwinian standpoint, the crucial role Dawkins gives to education is puzzling. Human biology has not changed greatly over recorded history, and if religion is hardwired in the species, it is difficult to see how a different kind of education could alter this. Yet Dawkins seems convinced that if it were not inculcated in schools and families, religion would die out. This is a view that has more in common with a certain type of fundamentalist theology than with Darwinian theory, and I cannot help being reminded of the evangelical Christian who assured me that children reared in a chaste environment would grow up without illicit sexual impulses.

Dawkins's "memetic theory of religion" is a classic example of the nonsense that is spawned when Darwinian thinking is applied outside its proper sphere. Along with Dennett, who also holds to a version of the theory, Dawkins maintains that religious ideas survive because they would be able to survive in any "meme pool", or else because they are part of a "memeplex" that includes similar memes, such as the idea that, if you die as a martyr, you will enjoy 72 virgins. Unfortunately, the theory of memes is science only in the sense that Intelligent Design is science. Strictly speaking, it is not even a theory. Talk of memes is just the latest in a succession of ill-judged Darwinian metaphors.

Dawkins compares religion to a virus: religious ideas are memes that infect vulnerable minds, especially those of children. Biological metaphors may have their uses - the minds of evangelical atheists seem particularly prone to infection by religious memes, for example. At the same time, analogies of this kind are fraught with peril. Dawkins makes much of the oppression perpetrated by religion, which is real enough. He gives less attention to the fact that some of the worst atrocities of modern times were committed by regimes that claimed scientific sanction for their crimes. Nazi "scientific racism" and Soviet "dialectical materialism" reduced the unfathomable complexity of human lives to the deadly simplicity of a scientific formula. In each case, the science was bogus, but it was accepted as genuine at the time, and not only in the regimes in question. Science is as liable to be used for inhumane purposes as any other human institution. Indeed, given the enormous authority science enjoys, the risk of it being used in this way is greater.

Contemporary opponents of religion display a marked lack of interest in the historical record of atheist regimes. In The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason, the American writer Sam Harris argues that religion has been the chief source of violence and oppression in history. He recognises that secular despots such as Stalin and Mao inflicted terror on a grand scale, but maintains the oppression they practised had nothing to do with their ideology of "scientific atheism" - what was wrong with their regimes was that they were tyrannies. But might there not be a connection between the attempt to eradicate religion and the loss of freedom? It is unlikely that Mao, who launched his assault on the people and culture of Tibet with the slogan "Religion is poison", would have agreed that his atheist world-view had no bearing on his policies. It is true he was worshipped as a semi-divine figure - as Stalin was in the Soviet Union. But in developing these cults, communist Russia and China were not backsliding from atheism. They were demonstrating what happens when atheism becomes a political project. The invariable result is an ersatz religion that can only be maintained by tyrannical means.

Something like this occurred in Nazi Germany. Dawkins dismisses any suggestion that the crimes of the Nazis could be linked with atheism. "What matters," he declares in The God Delusion, "is not whether Hitler and Stalin were atheists, but whether atheism systematically influences people to do bad things. There is not the smallest evidence that it does." This is simple-minded reasoning. Always a tremendous booster of science, Hitler was much impressed by vulgarised Darwinism and by theories of eugenics that had developed from Enlightenment philosophies of materialism. He used Christian antisemitic demonology in his persecution of Jews, and the churches collaborated with him to a horrifying degree. But it was the Nazi belief in race as a scientific category that opened the way to a crime without parallel in history. Hitler's world-view was that of many semi-literate people in interwar Europe, a hotchpotch of counterfeit science and animus towards religion. There can be no reasonable doubt that this was a type of atheism, or that it helped make Nazi crimes possible.

Nowadays most atheists are avowed liberals. What they want - so they will tell you - is not an atheist regime, but a secular state in which religion has no role. They clearly believe that, in a state of this kind, religion will tend to decline. But America's secular constitution has not ensured a secular politics. Christian fundamentalism is more powerful in the US than in any other country, while it has very little influence in Britain, which has an established church. Contemporary critics of religion go much further than demanding disestablishment. It is clear that he wants to eliminate all traces of religion from public institutions. Awkwardly, many of the concepts he deploys - including the idea of religion itself - have been shaped by monotheism. Lying behind secular fundamentalism is a conception of history that derives from religion.

AC Grayling provides an example of the persistence of religious categories in secular thinking in his Towards the Light: The Story of the Struggles for Liberty and Rights That Made the Modern West. As the title indicates, Grayling's book is a type of sermon. Its aim is to reaffirm what he calls "a Whig view of the history of the modern west", the core of which is that "the west displays progress". The Whigs were pious Christians, who believed divine providence arranged history to culminate in English institutions, and Grayling too believes history is "moving in the right direction". No doubt there have been setbacks - he mentions nazism and communism in passing, devoting a few sentences to them. But these disasters were peripheral. They do not reflect on the central tradition of the modern west, which has always been devoted to liberty, and which - Grayling asserts - is inherently antagonistic to religion. "The history of liberty," he writes, "is another chapter - and perhaps the most important of all - in the great quarrel between religion and secularism." The possibility that radical versions of secular thinking may have contributed to the development of nazism and communism is not mentioned. More even than the 18th-century Whigs, who were shaken by French Terror, Grayling has no doubt as to the direction of history.

But the belief that history is a directional process is as faith-based as anything in the Christian catechism. Secular thinkers such as Grayling reject the idea of providence, but they continue to think humankind is moving towards a universal goal - a civilisation based on science that will eventually encompass the entire species. In pre-Christian Europe, human life was understood as a series of cycles; history was seen as tragic or comic rather than redemptive. With the arrival of Christianity, it came to be believed that history had a predetermined goal, which was human salvation. Though they suppress their religious content, secular humanists continue to cling to similar beliefs. One does not want to deny anyone the consolations of a faith, but it is obvious that the idea of progress in history is a myth created by the need for meaning.

The problem with the secular narrative is not that it assumes progress is inevitable (in many versions, it does not). It is the belief that the sort of advance that has been achieved in science can be reproduced in ethics and politics. In fact, while scientific knowledge increases cumulatively, nothing of the kind happens in society. Slavery was abolished in much of the world during the 19th century, but it returned on a vast scale in nazism and communism, and still exists today. Torture was prohibited in international conventions after the second world war, only to be adopted as an instrument of policy by the world's pre-eminent liberal regime at the beginning of the 21st century. Wealth has increased, but it has been repeatedly destroyed in wars and revolutions. People live longer and kill one another in larger numbers. Knowledge grows, but human beings remain much the same.

Belief in progress is a relic of the Christian view of history as a universal narrative, and an intellectually rigorous atheism would start by questioning it. This is what Nietzsche did when he developed his critique of Christianity in the late 19th century, but almost none of today's secular missionaries have followed his example. One need not be a great fan of Nietzsche to wonder why this is so. The reason, no doubt, is that he did not assume any connection between atheism and liberal values - on the contrary, he viewed liberal values as an offspring of Christianity and condemned them partly for that reason. In contrast, evangelical atheists have positioned themselves as defenders of liberal freedoms - rarely inquiring where these freedoms have come from, and never allowing that religion may have had a part in creating them.

Among contemporary anti-religious polemicists, only the French writer Michel Onfray has taken Nietzsche as his point of departure. In some ways, Onfray's In Defence of Atheism is superior to anything English-speaking writers have published on the subject. Refreshingly, Onfray recognises that evangelical atheism is an unwitting imitation of traditional religion: "Many militants of the secular cause look astonishingly like clergy. Worse: like caricatures of clergy." More clearly than his Anglo-Saxon counterparts, Onfray understands the formative influence of religion on secular thinking. Yet he seems not to notice that the liberal values he takes for granted were partly shaped by Christianity and Judaism. The key liberal theorists of toleration are John Locke, who defended religious freedom in explicitly Christian terms, and Benedict Spinoza, a Jewish rationalist who was also a mystic. Yet Onfray has nothing but contempt for the traditions from which these thinkers emerged - particularly Jewish monotheism: "We do not possess an official certificate of birth for worship of one God," he writes. "But the family line is clear: the Jews invented it to endure the coherence, cohesion and existence of their small, threatened people." Here Onfray passes over an important distinction. It may be true that Jews first developed monotheism, but Judaism has never been a missionary faith. In seeking universal conversion, evangelical atheism belongs with Christianity and Islam.

In today's anxiety about religion, it has been forgotten that most of the faith-based violence of the past century was secular in nature. To some extent, this is also true of the current wave of terrorism. Islamism is a patchwork of movements, not all violently jihadist and some strongly opposed to al-Qaida, most of them partly fundamentalist and aiming to recover the lost purity of Islamic traditions, while at the same time taking some of their guiding ideas from radical secular ideology. There is a deal of fashionable talk of Islamo-fascism, and Islamist parties have some features in common with interwar fascist movements, including antisemitism. But Islamists owe as much, if not more, to the far left, and it would be more accurate to describe many of them as Islamo-Leninists. Islamist techniques of terror also have a pedigree in secular revolutionary movements. The executions of hostages in Iraq are copied in exact theatrical detail from European "revolutionary tribunals" in the 1970s, such as that staged by the Red Brigades when they murdered the former Italian prime minister Aldo Moro in 1978.

The influence of secular revolutionary movements on terrorism extends well beyond Islamists. In God Is Not Great, Christopher Hitchens notes that, long before Hizbullah and al-Qaida, the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka pioneered what he rightly calls "the disgusting tactic of suicide murder". He omits to mention that the Tigers are Marxist-Leninists who, while recruiting mainly from the island's Hindu population, reject religion in all its varieties. Tiger suicide bombers do not go to certain death in the belief that they will be rewarded in any postmortem paradise. Nor did the suicide bombers who drove American and French forces out of Lebanon in the 80s, most of whom belonged to organisations of the left such as the Lebanese communist party. These secular terrorists believed they were expediting a historical process from which will come a world better than any that has ever existed. It is a view of things more remote from human realities, and more reliably lethal in its consequences, than most religious myths.

It is not necessary to believe in any narrative of progress to think liberal societies are worth resolutely defending. No one can doubt that they are superior to the tyranny imposed by the Taliban on Afghanistan, for example. The issue is one of proportion. Ridden with conflicts and lacking the industrial base of communism and nazism, Islamism is nowhere near a danger of the magnitude of those that were faced down in the 20th century. A greater menace is posed by North Korea, which far surpasses any Islamist regime in its record of repression and clearly does possess some kind of nuclear capability. Evangelical atheists rarely mention it. Hitchens is an exception, but when he describes his visit to the country, it is only to conclude that the regime embodies "a debased yet refined form of Confucianism and ancestor worship". As in Russia and China, the noble humanist philosophy of Marxist-Leninism is innocent of any responsibility.

Writing of the Trotskyite-Luxemburgist sect to which he once belonged, Hitchens confesses sadly: "There are days when I miss my old convictions as if they were an amputated limb." He need not worry. His record on Iraq shows he has not lost the will to believe. The effect of the American-led invasion has been to deliver most of the country outside the Kurdish zone into the hands of an Islamist elective theocracy, in which women, gays and religious minorities are more oppressed than at any time in Iraq's history. The idea that Iraq could become a secular democracy - which Hitchens ardently promoted - was possible only as an act of faith.

In The Second Plane, Martin Amis writes: "Opposition to religion already occupies the high ground, intellectually and morally." Amis is sure religion is a bad thing, and that it has no future in the west. In the author of Koba the Dread: Laughter and the Twenty Million - a forensic examination of self-delusion in the pro-Soviet western intelligentsia - such confidence is surprising. The intellectuals whose folly Amis dissects turned to communism in some sense as a surrogate for religion, and ended up making excuses for Stalin. Are there really no comparable follies today? Some neocons - such as Tony Blair, who will soon be teaching religion and politics at Yale - combine their belligerent progressivism with religious belief, though of a kind Augustine and Pascal might find hard to recognise. Most are secular utopians, who justify pre-emptive war and excuse torture as leading to a radiant future in which democracy will be adopted universally. Even on the high ground of the west, messianic politics has not lost its dangerous appeal.

Religion has not gone away. Repressing it is like repressing sex, a self-defeating enterprise. In the 20th century, when it commanded powerful states and mass movements, it helped engender totalitarianism. Today, the result is a climate of hysteria. Not everything in religion is precious or deserving of reverence. There is an inheritance of anthropocentrism, the ugly fantasy that the Earth exists to serve humans, which most secular humanists share. There is the claim of religious authorities, also made by atheist regimes, to decide how people can express their sexuality, control their fertility and end their lives, which should be rejected categorically. Nobody should be allowed to curtail freedom in these ways, and no religion has the right to break the peace.

The attempt to eradicate religion, however, only leads to it reappearing in grotesque and degraded forms. A credulous belief in world revolution, universal democracy or the occult powers of mobile phones is more offensive to reason than the mysteries of religion, and less likely to survive in years to come. Victorian poet Matthew Arnold wrote of believers being left bereft as the tide of faith ebbs away. Today secular faith is ebbing, and it is the apostles of unbelief who are left stranded on the beach.


· John Gray's Black Mass: Apocalyptic Religion and the Death of Utopia will be out in paperback in April (Penguin)

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1. Comment #144014 by MelM on March 14, 2008 at 9:46 pm

Faith is the greatest enemy reason has. Religion creates a milieu of unreason that accomodated the hatred for reason by Hitler and the suppression of it by Stalin. Neither of these regimes had any problem fitting the sacrifice of the individual to the state into their national religious backgrounds. It is irrationality across the board that is my enemy. Astrology is a minor problem; alien abduction stories, and crop circles may come and go but the vice of faith is the most persistent danger to reason, science, Western Civilization, and freedom. I am anti-religion because I'm pro-reason, pro-science, and pro-freedom.

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2. Comment #144015 by Laurie Fraser on March 14, 2008 at 9:48 pm

 avatarThis rooster qualifies as the master of the non sequitur. What is it with religious apologists and bad logic? (Sorry, stupid question.)

"the apostles of unbelief stranded on the beach":
What are we now, whales?

"the ugly fantasy that the Earth exists to serve humans, which most secular humanists share":
Could this be true? I'm worried now; I was under the impression most of us "secular (don't you just love that word) humanists" actually gave a hoot about the environment as distinct from the psych-jeezoids who have been raping the planet for a fair while now.

Pass me a bucket.

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3. Comment #144018 by MelM on March 14, 2008 at 10:11 pm

How about this little bit of treason to humanity:
Both science and religion are systems of symbols that serve human needs - in the case of science, for prediction and control.
Religions have served many purposes, but at bottom they answer to a need for meaning that is met by myth rather than explanation.


"myth"? Living in reality according to a corrupt system of falsehoods brought ignorance, death, poverty, tyranny, and descruction--as it had to. Reason has brought an enormous improvement in life to those societies that have embraced it and it's responsible for the Bill Of Rights.

I think our attack strategy needs to evolve to meet the response from religion.

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4. Comment #144022 by Laurie Fraser on March 14, 2008 at 10:19 pm

 avatarExactly, MeIM. The non sequitur that reason, or science, is just another ideology that can be corrupted to serve evil misses the point. Of course the outcomes of scientific thought can be used destructively (nuclear weapons), but that evil is often caused by the religious, or insane, or tyrranically deluded minds that have just as much access to them as anyone else. "God told me to use this C4, the product of science, to blow up myself and a few dozen others."

The reality is that it is only reason that has the power to free us from mythology.

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5. Comment #144026 by Mango on March 14, 2008 at 10:24 pm

 avatar"evangelical atheists." Why must writers so thoroughly expose their abysmal ignorance and wrong-headed biases by using religious terms for the non-religious? The article appears to have no value whatsoever.

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6. Comment #144028 by nother person on March 14, 2008 at 10:27 pm

I could swear I've read this before... Are they not only figuratively repeating themselves, but actually literally re-publishing the same tired crap?

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7. Comment #144030 by Lenny on March 14, 2008 at 10:47 pm

Whenever I see things like this, Sam's argument that we shouldn't call ourselves atheists becomes more convincing.

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8. Comment #144031 by MelM on March 14, 2008 at 10:47 pm

These evil atheists:
Zealous atheism renews some of the worst features of Christianity and Islam. Just as much as these religions, it is a project of universal conversion.
Give me a break! Universal conversion is a normal and, basically, rational desire of a philosophy and is not one of the worst features of these religions. It isn't Dawkins that's running Jesus camps, trying to replace 2500 years of natural science with theistic drivel, or training jihadis. If one doesn't accept Dawkins' theories, there will be no executions, or eternal fire; he isn't advocating shooting "unbelievers." Really, I don't see how Hitler and Stalin could have come to power without the preceding religious "virtues" of unreason and sacrifice.

I didn't see a way to post a response to this Gaurdian article.

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9. Comment #144033 by wasabi on March 14, 2008 at 10:54 pm

Heh. I like this article. I find it well written. Yes, we all do know that logic and reason are.... more logical and reasonable. But seriously, do we all think that we can force all humans to be logical and reasonable? They are not. Some people simply are not INTs. They don't want to be. They don't need to be. And all our attempts to convince them that they should be reasonable will fail. Teach your ideas. Try to build agreement. But why do us Atheists hate these people so much?

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10. Comment #144035 by MelM on March 14, 2008 at 11:02 pm

Why do I hate them so much? Well, I'll submit this evidence from a recent PZ post. In my first comment above, I turned the statement around so as to read it from my perspective.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/what_hath_the_god_of_biscuits.php

Night night.

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11. Comment #144037 by tobybarrett on March 14, 2008 at 11:46 pm

 avatarQuote: "A curious feature of this kind of atheism is that some of its most fervent missionaries are philosophers."

Why is this curious?

- Philosophers have always held arguments and propositions up to logical scrutiny. Socrates was accused of stopping the Athenian youth from beliveing in the gods.

- Philosophy starts from a sceptical point of view. Descartes started by doubting evrything he could to see what was left.

- Philosophers care about the truth.

It would be curious if philosophers were NOT arguing for atheism.

Post enlightenment, I think most major philosophers have been at least agnostic. (No doubt there have been some exceptions.)

Toby

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12. Comment #144042 by lievemebe on March 15, 2008 at 1:01 am

But might there not be a connection between the attempt to eradicate religion and the loss of freedom?

I don't see a connection, all I see is a strawman.

Knowledge grows, but human beings remain much the same.

People educated in science are much more enlightened and socially resposible than the bronze age nomads of the Old Testament.

rarely inquiring where these freedoms have come from, and never allowing that religion may have had a part in creating them.

What freedoms has religion created? Answer, none.

In today's anxiety about religion, it has been forgotten that most of the faith-based violence of the past century was secular in nature

What is this faith based violence that was secular and has been forgotten? Perhaps if I repeat faith, secular, faith, secular….I might magically remember a connection.

These secular terrorists believed they were expediting a historical process from which will come a world better than any that has ever existed.

Anyone who suicide bombs as a way to a better future is a common garden murderer. It has no relevance to secularism.

Islamism is nowhere near a danger of the magnitude of those that were faced down in the 20th century.

Misguided people were saying right up to 1939 that Hitler was a good bloke, not dangerous.(Yawn)

Religion has not gone away. Repressing it is like repressing sex, a self-defeating enterprise.

Science offers rapturous, exciting, snake-handling fascination beyond the wildest dreams of religion. I could go to church and listen to a sermon by Richard Dawkins.

Other Comments by lievemebe

13. Comment #144043 by Steve Zara on March 15, 2008 at 1:06 am

 avatarComment #144033 by wasabi
But seriously, do we all think that we can force all humans to be logical and reasonable? They are not.


If we can't encourage most people to realise the importance of being logical and reasonable then we are in deep trouble. In a world containing nuclear weapons, and suffering from global warming, and potential starvation we need people to think about their lives and the future rationally.

Try to build agreement. But why do us Atheists hate these people so much?


I don't hate the religious. I have the stifiling of the imagination, and that religion can encourage prejudice, ignorance, and the treating of our world as nothing but a temporary waiting room.

From the article:
Today secular faith is ebbing, and it is the apostles of unbelief who are left stranded on the beach.


This sounds like someone closing their eyes, balling their fists and with all their strength wishing desperately that they were right: "Please God, if I am really good, make secularism go away"

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14. Comment #144044 by mmurray on March 15, 2008 at 1:07 am

 avatarPresumably this is he:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_N._Gray

Michael

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15. Comment #144058 by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy on March 15, 2008 at 1:51 am

"But the idea of free will that informs liberal notions of personal autonomy is biblical in origin (think of the Genesis story). The belief that exercising free will is part of being human is a legacy of faith, and like most varieties of atheism today, Pullman's is a derivative of Christianity."

Is there a name for this argument? The argument from "It says we thought of it first in our magic book, because our magic book says so and it's impossible that it might be a human concept, because humans can't think like that because our magic book says so"?

No?

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16. Comment #144059 by davem on March 15, 2008 at 1:54 am

"Secularisation is in retreat"

Uh?

Sometimes I think Grauniad writers do come from a different planet, and this is confirmation, indeed.

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17. Comment #144062 by AshtonBlack on March 15, 2008 at 2:10 am

 avatar"Secularisation is in retreat"

No.... Pew.

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18. Comment #144072 by Logicel on March 15, 2008 at 2:56 am

 avatarOne long belly laugh from start to finish.

If 'loud/new' atheism (though this guy feels humanism is a problem also, per the Wikipedia link) is flushing these demented fuckwits out in the open, then perhaps Sam Harris is not entirely right to resist focusing on atheism.

This guy sounds like Hedges, negative and has given up on mankind. Just nuts. If we as a species fail, at least we tried.

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19. Comment #144076 by mandelstam on March 15, 2008 at 3:15 am

Once again someone completely misses the point. I would get angry at how lazy these articles are if I was not overwhelmed by exasparation and ennui....

Just to be clear. I am an atheist, you are a (insert religion here). I do not claim any special dispensation for my opinions or arguments because I am an atheist, and I do not grant you any because you are a (whatever). I do not wish to convert you to anything except reason. I will examine the basis of your arguments reasonably. I will not quietly allow you to make laws on the basis of your religion, or to protect your religion. Feel free to say, believe or even poroseltyse anything you choose, but accept all the above.

Now go and read what Bishop Devine or the president of Iran have to say. Grant them special privelage for their religiosity if you wish, but grant me the right to say that because of their religion, they are ignorant, bigoted & potentially harmful. But I feel no impulse to compel them to silence, I just want the freedom to be able say that without fear of retribution or spurious accusations of "offending" them. This modest claim makes me a fundamentalist?

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20. Comment #144085 by mixmastergaz on March 15, 2008 at 4:12 am

 avatarInteresting that Gray considers Onfray's book to be the best amongst the 'new atheists'; I thought it was one of the worst (admittedly I haven't read it in its original language). It's full of unsupported assertions and provocative guesswork like 'St. Paul was impotent and that's why he's got such a downer on sexuality' (obviously I'm paraphrasing from memory!)

I agree with the earlier poster who said this guy is like Hedges; it's the same thesis. Too much reason/rationality leads to tyranny.

Bollocks.

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21. Comment #144086 by rod-the-farmer on March 15, 2008 at 4:14 am

 avatarThe many claims of this nut are enough to cause widespread headshaking. When he reports that Onfay claims

Many militants of the secular cause look astonishingly like clergy. Worse: like caricatures of clergy

I wonder what produced THIS idea. "Look like" ? In a physical sense ? Possibly, depending on your life experience. So what ? But sound like ? Not a chance. I never heard one of the Four Horsemen tell me what to think/not think, or especially what not to read. Or who I could marry, for that matter. This guy seems to want to attack atheists, because they are attacking religion. Pardon me for reading, but I didn't see much there defending religion. I got the impression he was ticked that he too was not, and should be getting some of the

enormous money-spinners

action.

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22. Comment #144090 by Corylus on March 15, 2008 at 4:26 am

 avatarGroan, John Gray!!

I thought his previous stuff was annoying, but looks like this new book is going to be even worse, especially if this is anything to go by...
There is the claim of religious authorities, also made by atheist regimes, to decide how people can express their sexuality, control their fertility and end their lives, which should be rejected categorically. Nobody should be allowed to curtail freedom in these ways, and no religion has the right to break the peace.
Wha? Is his saying that China's one child policy is enacted because of atheism? Is his saying that atheists generally seek to dictate how people express sexuality? Dear me.

The trouble with John Gray (who, heartbreakingly, is a smart and well read man) is that he takes the whole thinking dialectally business to unbelievable, ridiculous extremes. Yes, looking at hidden aims and agendas can yield insights. Yes, looking at points of opposition and resistance is fascinating. However, you cannot view all politics and thought in stark delineated, oppositional terms. (You make yourself look like a paranoid wally if you do).

It is possible to have new ideas and attempt real progress as opposed to being in a constant state of flux. I smell a case of Foucault overdose (amongst other things).

Anyways; an antidote by A.C. Grayling :-)

http://newhumanist.org.uk/1423

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23. Comment #144092 by Ian Bamlett on March 15, 2008 at 4:34 am

 avatarPainful, but I finished it.

Four thousand odd words and he didn't come close to answering the question that was growing paragraph after paragraph in my head: but is any of it TRUE?

I am left thinking this is no more than a weak defense of Dan Dennet's 'belief in belief'.

Other Comments by Ian Bamlett

24. Comment #144096 by MrPickwick on March 15, 2008 at 4:45 am

 avatarOf course this whole article is full of s***, no question about it. But it is exactly what people who want to believe, but are not used to think for themselves, need to go on believing: An "intelligent" guy, from a "respected" newspaper, quoting poets and philosophers (out of context) and providing "arguments" that support their view of the world. This kind of "intellectuals" are the real enemies. Let them play the flute and a huge herd will follow them. Who cares about truth.

I am afraid that nobody, not even guys like Dawkins, Hitchens, etc, can compete with The Pied Piper of Hamelin.

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25. Comment #144097 by D'Arcy on March 15, 2008 at 4:58 am

 avatarI have just picked out one phrase from this long ramble:

The incomprehensibility of the divine is at the heart of Eastern Christianity,


That about sums up what any religion is about.

"God's ways are mysterious, and you humans are bloody fools to try to understand them, so don't bother".

Poisonous weasels these faith defenders.

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26. Comment #144100 by black wolf on March 15, 2008 at 5:17 am

 avatar
The 9/11 hijackers saw themselves as martyrs in a religious tradition, and western opinion has accepted their self-image.


How do you discern whether someone's self-image is relevant or true? You can't. Someone who thinks they're religious and does things for religious reasons is religious. Period. What do you expect? Allah coming down from heaven and declaring 'I, Allah your God, hereby testify that these people didn't believe in my commands!'? When someone says he believes something, and all of his actions and statements fit that belief, it is logical and reasonable to assume that that is what he does believe. It doesn't make any sense to deny that.

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27. Comment #144104 by black wolf on March 15, 2008 at 5:26 am

 avatar
But the idea of free will that informs liberal notions of personal autonomy is biblical in origin (think of the Genesis story). The belief that exercising free will is part of being human is a legacy of faith, and like most varieties of atheism today, Pullman's is a derivative of Christianity.


Bullshit. The idea goes back to pre-Christian Hellenistic philosophy, when nobody had heard of a story called 'Genesis'. There is plenty of evidence for that, and it is about time that this Judeo-Christian propaganda myth is done away with. Believers cling to this myth like a tick to its host, and it has been seeded into generations who never questioned it.

Other Comments by black wolf

28. Comment #144107 by notsobad on March 15, 2008 at 5:28 am

 avataranother flea thinking he is a writer...

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29. Comment #144109 by Terminally Nerdy on March 15, 2008 at 5:35 am

Someone please help me point out the fallacy of the 'science as an excuse for abuses' statement. Yes, we're all aware of what deluded minds can do with superficial notions of science, it's terrible. CLEARLY, though, science provides far more benefits that harms, not to mention its based in empirical facts. It can be vetted and verified in a way that is fundamentally impossible for religion. The comforts or benefits of religion, however, are such that can be more than adequately substituted by science. Except that you gotta think about them to benefit by them. The required thinking gets us atheists every time. Some people just aren't willing to make the effort.

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30. Comment #144111 by black wolf on March 15, 2008 at 5:41 am

 avatar
The incomprehensibility of the divine ...
in spiritual matters truth is ineffable...


An idea that remains incomprehensibile and ineffable after millenia of pondering fits the definition of nonsense.
Nonsense: words or language having little or no sense or meaning; something absurd or fatuous; anything of trifling importance or of little or no use.

...and if religion is hardwired in the species, it is difficult to see how a different kind of education could alter this. Yet Dawkins seems convinced that if it were not inculcated in schools and families, religion would die out. This is a view that has more in common with a certain type of fundamentalist theology...


Repeat after me: Religion is not hardwired. Irrational faith based on pattern reckognition may be, but that does not make it religion. Religion fully depends on inculcation, preferably as early in life as possible. Nobody is born with God in his head, let alone Jesus or circumcision or praying. This is a straw man argument.

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31. Comment #144112 by Jack Rawlinson on March 15, 2008 at 5:47 am

 avatarOkay, that's it. The Guardian was the only newspaper I could tolerate for many years but I've had it with these constant, highly unbalanced attacks on atheism and rationalism. Not only that, the general quality of the paper has been declining. There are too many tabloid-style pieces about pop culture nobodies and superficial non-news. I'm not reading the fucking atrocity any more, and I'm writing to let them know why. It disgusts me that the paper I used to recommend as the best British news source has become possibly the most prolific outlet for anti-atheist propaganda. I hope their circulation goes to hell. It's certainly going to be reduced by at least one, as from now.

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32. Comment #144113 by Vaal on March 15, 2008 at 5:49 am

 avatar
The incomprehensibility of the divine


Cracking! It is incomprehensible because it doesn't exit.

Other Comments by Vaal

33. Comment #144116 by Apathy personified on March 15, 2008 at 6:02 am

 avatarWell, he loses the debate via Godwin's Law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law

It's a typical tactic, forgetting that in no way were Nazi Germany or Communist Russia and China anything to do with secularism, the fact is that the dominant political party controlled every aspect of peoples lives, that's religious tyranny, not secularism.
It also seems to have become a common tactic to say all athiests are far left wacko's (communists), do we have to start worrying about a McCarthy witch hunt again?
ANd finally, WHY DO THESE CRACKPOTS DELIBERATELY MISINTERPRET EVERY ARGUMENT WE HAVE THEN TELL US WE ARE WRONG BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE INTELLECTUAL CAPACITY TO LISTEN TO WHAT WE SAY

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34. Comment #144127 by Inferno on March 15, 2008 at 6:39 am

 avatarIf you're gonna write against Dawkins' et al's view of religion, fine. But get your argument straight.

Human biology has not changed greatly over recorded history, and if religion is hardwired in the species, it is difficult to see how a different kind of education could alter this


Having children is hard wired into the brain, but education seems to work pretty well at getting people to use contraception.

He gives less attention to the fact that some of the worst atrocities of modern times were committed by regimes that claimed scientific sanction for their crimes.


Science reveals, or attempts to reveal, facts about the world. It does not tell you how to act in knowledge of those facts (or supposed facts). Religion on the other hand DOES tell you how to act. The very religious texts themselves promote violence, the supression of women and hatred of homosexuals.

It is clear that he wants to eliminate all traces of religion from public institutions.


Far from it. Dawkins is in favour of religious education. He just doesn't think it should stop at the religion of the childs parents. Kids should learn about all the major religions in order to make an educated decision which one to join - if any.

With the arrival of Christianity, it came to be believed that history had a predetermined goal, which was human salvation. Though they suppress their religious content, secular humanists continue to cling to similar beliefs.


Sorry, who says this? Many atheists have an opptomistic view of humanity - that we are in charge of our own destiny and can make a better world if we chose too. But that is a far different thing from a predetermined goal!

it has been forgotten that most of the faith-based violence of the past century was secular in nature.


Bit unfair. What is secular? Everything other than religion. So he's arguing religion v every other cause out there. Bit like asking the question which movie has made more money, Ghostbusters or every other movie ever made.

Dawkins and Harris has never said religion is the only cause of war. In fact, they even admit it is probably not the major cause of war. But it one cause. And one cause that we can overcome!

He used Christian antisemitic demonology in his persecution of Jews, and the churches collaborated with him to a horrifying degree. But it was the Nazi belief in race as a scientific category that opened the way to a crime without parallel in history. Hitler's world-view was that of many semi-literate people in interwar Europe, a hotchpotch of counterfeit science and animus towards religion. There can be no reasonable doubt that this was a type of atheism


Where did hitler get his hatred of jews and other non-christians? Hmmm? If his actions are a type of atheism (what the heck is a type of atheism? are there types of not collecting stamps?) then it is also a type of religion.

Ridden with conflicts and lacking the industrial base of communism and nazism, Islamism is nowhere near a danger of the magnitude of those that were faced down in the 20th century.


Maybe so, but does that mean we should wait until it is of that magnitude?

the ugly fantasy that the Earth exists to serve humans, which most secular humanists share.


What? Who? Please supply the name of this organisation and the number of members.

Other Comments by Inferno

35. Comment #144128 by Foggerty on March 15, 2008 at 6:39 am

In The God Delusion, Dawkins attempts to explain the appeal of religion in terms of the theory of memes, vaguely defined conceptual units that compete with one another in a parody of natural selection. He recognises that, because humans have a universal tendency to religious belief, it must have had some evolutionary advantage, but today, he argues, it is perpetuated mainly through bad education. From a Darwinian standpoint, the crucial role Dawkins gives to education is puzzling. Human biology has not changed greatly over recorded history, and if religion is hardwired in the species, it is difficult to see how a different kind of education could alter this. Yet Dawkins seems convinced that if it were not inculcated in schools and families, religion would die out.


This is seriously missing the point - the Darwinian aspect (advantage) is implicitly believing what authority figures tell you. He seems unable to under stand that religous memes then latch on to this via "education".

He then goes on to imply that Dawkins suggested that religion *itself* was selected for darwinian reasons, again, missing the point and getting things horribly wrong.

Its people like this and the pretentious intellectual wannabe crap they churn out that make me generally distrust Philosophers. I'll hold off judging Daniel Dennet until I've read his books though :-)

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36. Comment #144130 by Steve Zara on March 15, 2008 at 6:46 am

 avatarComment #144128 by Foggerty

He then goes on to imply that Dawkins suggested that religion *itself* was selected for darwinian reasons, again, missing the point and getting things horribly wrong.


I'll hold off judging Daniel Dennet until I've read his books though :-)


Dennett makes an interesting point regarding selection of religion.

Religion may well be directly selected for Darwinian reasons. The question is what gets the benefit of the selection.

Dennett gives examples of how animal behaviour may seem odd, until you discover that the behaviour is not for the benefit of the animal itself, but for the benefit of a parasite.

Religion may be a parasitic idea or set of ideas. The behaviour of religious people may not benefit people at all - it may for the benefit of the the parasitic memes forming religion.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

37. Comment #144133 by Double Bass Atheist on March 15, 2008 at 6:53 am

 avatarComment #144116 by Apathy personified
WHY DO THESE CRACKPOTS DELIBERATELY MISINTERPRET EVERY ARGUMENT WE HAVE THEN TELL US WE ARE WRONG BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE INTELLECTUAL CAPACITY TO LISTEN TO WHAT WE SAY


Childhood indoctrination does not go away easily. In addition, believing a god just magic'd everything into existence just soooo much easier to "understand" then a dozen different disciplines of science.
Besides, they really want to believe that all their nonsense (I call it non-science) is true! It gives their life "meaning." ...and I absolutely cringe every time I hear those words. Life cannot possibly have "meaning" without spending it praising some omnipotent sky fairy?

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38. Comment #144136 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on March 15, 2008 at 7:05 am

 avatar
He gives less attention to the fact that some of the worst atrocities of modern times were committed by regimes that claimed scientific sanction for their crimes. Nazi "scientific racism"


If you read Mein Kampf yes Hitler is obsessed with race and blood purity and this allows the fervour of hatred to ferment against non-Aryans, particularly Jews. The fact that it was justified by science, stemming from Galton's eugenics, is important, I don't know why there is so much argument against this patently obvious fact.

The BNP in Britain use science to justify their bile:

"We do not accept the absurd superstition �" propagated for different though sometimes overlapping reasons by capitalists, liberals, Marxists and theologians - of human equality. ...This must not be taken to mean or imply that we believe that any particular ethnic group or race is 'superior' or 'inferior'; we simply recognise that �" as any biologist would be able to predict, and the new medical science of pharmacogenetics is now confirming �" human populations which have undergone micro-evolutionary changes while being separated for many thousands of years have developed differences in many fields of endeavour, susceptibility to health problems, behavioural tendencies and such like." British National Party: Rebuilding British Democracy general election manifesto 2005, p. 17


The BNP are Nazi's its like studying a Hunter-gatherer tribe deep in the forest to help understand how ancient humans lived. Why must we close our eyes to the fact that science, reason can be manipulated. That science and reason are amoral, a-everything and that they can be used to ferment fervour and hatred as powerfully as anything else. They can make these things acceptable.

Science and reason 'can' make all horrific kinds of things acceptable.

Science and reason are a-everything. They can be used in a multiplicity of ways to justify multiplicities of beliefs.

Humans however much we deny it, are emotional creatures, "Our frontal lobes too small, and our pituitary glands too big". Rationalisation is usually post-hoc. Just take the atheists on this site who rationalise their political beliefs with reason.

We can pretend we are logical and rational but we just aren't.

BUT - who would suggest a society that would not value science, reason and logic?

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39. Comment #144138 by Spinoza on March 15, 2008 at 7:28 am

 avatarWell, as much as I am chagrined to admit it, it would be a lie to say that most major post enlightenment philosophers have been at least agnostic.

That would be to ignore greats like G.E.M. Anscombe, P.F. Strawson, etcetera...

Yes, the PROPORTION of agnostics and atheists among philosophers is probably as high, if not higher than among scientists... So far as I can tell.

There is something to the idea that as a philosopher one must be "technically" agnostic about anything one has no solid logical proof for...

But at the same time, there are tons of great Jewish and Christian (and maybe some Muslim, though not many in the Western tradition, so far as I can tell) philosophers living today who just happen to PRACTICE their religion, but as philosophers their God-belief is mediated by philosophy.

It would be an oversimplification indeed to equate the practice of a religion with necessary theism.

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40. Comment #144140 by Vaal on March 15, 2008 at 7:31 am

 avatar
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth


Now, that is the quote that as a youngster made me squirm, and seriously doubt the Bible, and THAT is the very beginning of it. The arrogance of the Abrahamic religions that humans could treat the Earth and all its other inhabitants as they wished, to give them a blank cheque for all sorts of monstrous behaviour towards anything that wasn't human, and that they were somehow separate from the animal kingdom, was utter solipsistic nonsense, and a point of view that was morally and ethically bankrupt. I just didn't understand that people in the Church could accept that without question.

So, the following comment below is actually the point of the view of the Religious, written in black and white above. Most humanists are VERY concerned about the appalling extinction rates, the exponential growth in the human population, the habitat loss as a direct result of overpopulation, the trafficking of animal parts, the destruction of forests and the environment.

Personally, I contribute towards the WWF, the RSPCA, and other bodies, otherwise we will be left with a planet with hardly any other species. That would be an appalling and irrecoverable crime by humanity!

the ugly fantasy that the Earth exists to serve humans, which most secular humanists share


Unbelievable the utter misrepresentation of the Godbotherers, to the point of slander. Lying for Jesus seems to be common practice.

Other Comments by Vaal

41. Comment #144150 by Geoff on March 15, 2008 at 8:04 am

 avatar"atheist creed"
Stalin, Hitler...

Nothing new to see here, move along...

Other Comments by Geoff

42. Comment #144171 by Dr Benway on March 15, 2008 at 8:43 am

 avatar
Science and reason 'can' make all horrific kinds of things acceptable.
I think you're confusing "science" with "sciency." We all know sciency when we see it: white coats, test tubes, machines, maths, measuring instruments, etc.

Science itself is merely a method for separating fact from fiction. Everyone uses this method, crudely or carefully, when sorting out cause and effect. The set of facts accepted as true by application of this method provides a description of the world. But this description prescribes nothing.

The fact that it was justified by science, stemming from Galton's eugenics, is important...
Facts about the world are just that, whether those facts are established by scientists, historians, journalists, priests, or your car mechanic. Facts are either well established, somewhat established, or false. Some facts may seem more sciency than others. But branding a fact "scientific" adds no particular meaning.
We can pretend we are logical and rational but we just aren't.
We suffer certain cognitive limitations that we don't always appreciate and that likely will be with us for a long time. We invented rules of evidence to help us overcome these limitations.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

43. Comment #144193 by Roy_H on March 15, 2008 at 9:42 am

 avatarI think Dave Allen said it all.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxo81Ok9Urk

What utter nonsense!

Other Comments by Roy_H

44. Comment #144195 by Richard Morgan on March 15, 2008 at 9:43 am

 avatarMUSIC UPDATE


Excuse my off-topic : all my RDNet compositions are now posted on:


http://www.myspace.com/fleabytes

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45. Comment #144209 by John Desclin on March 15, 2008 at 10:35 am

To Mixmastergaz's comment 21 #144085
Obviously, Onfrays is an admirer of Freud (he says so in his book which I have read in french, since it is my language), and Freud is the perfect example of a new prophet who didn't care about scientific truth!

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46. Comment #144210 by phasmagigas on March 15, 2008 at 10:39 am

 avatar
There is an inheritance of anthropocentrism, the ugly fantasy that the Earth exists to serve humans, which most secular humanists share


i have never met anybody who I would call a humanist who thought that, that is pure bollocks.

The attempt to eradicate religion, however, only leads to it reappearing in grotesque and degraded forms. A credulous belief in world revolution, universal democracy or the occult powers of mobile phones is more offensive to reason than the mysteries of religion, and less likely to survive in years to come.


better the devil you know??

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47. Comment #144213 by oriole on March 15, 2008 at 11:18 am

I've posted a response to Gray's article at the Guardian website under my user name there, BaltimoreOriole. Here's the link:
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/john_gray/2008/03/godless_evangelicals.html

Let's all remember not just to vent our annoyance at such silly articles here among friends, which of course does have value, but also to go to the newspaper, magazine, or whatever and put forth the atheist position in that larger forum where we might have a chance to sway public opinion, or at least let people know that Dawkins, Dennett, etc. are not quite the lonely voices that faithheads make them out to be.

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48. Comment #144214 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on March 15, 2008 at 11:18 am

 avatarDr Benway

The set of facts accepted as true by application of this method provides a description of the world. But this description prescribes nothing.


a-everything as I said yes.

But branding a fact "scientific" adds no particular meaning.


I have to disagree in the strongest terms possible. Branding a fact scientific adds an enormous meaning to a statement of 'fact'. It carries with it the respectability that science has earned. With respectability comes great efficacy.

Racism is a prime example of this. Evolution suggests that race is important. I choose to highlight the facts that make race meaningless but I could just as easily make race seem an undeniable fact that is of ultimate importance. I will again quote the British National Party:

"We do not accept the absurd superstition propagated for different though sometimes overlapping reasons by capitalists, liberals, Marxists and theologians - of human equality. ...This must not be taken to mean or imply that we believe that any particular ethnic group or race is 'superior' or 'inferior'; we simply recognise that as any biologist would be able to predict, and the new medical science of pharmacogenetics is now confirming human populations which have undergone micro-evolutionary changes while being separated for many thousands of years have developed differences in many fields of endeavour, susceptibility to health problems, behavioural tendencies and such like."
British National Party: Rebuilding British Democracy general election manifesto 2005, p. 17


Where there is room in science, on the particularly contentious issues a scientific opinion carries enormous importance for propaganda. Beyond any other branding of a fact.

Science itself is merely a method for separating fact from fiction.


Yes but this thread is about the elevation of science and reason. That it will cure all human ills. Science and reason have exactly the same foibles as religion. The soft sciences are very much about agenda, and propaganda etc.

Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad

49. Comment #144215 by youmemeyou on March 15, 2008 at 11:37 am

ThoughtsonCommonToad:"Science itself is merely a method for separating fact from fiction."


There's something about this formulation that makes me uncomfortable. A little like people who define reason as unemotional, linear processes of deduction. Which it is not, however powerful this individual tool in the suitcase term of 'reason'.

Other Comments by youmemeyou

50. Comment #144217 by Dr Benway on March 15, 2008 at 11:38 am

 avatarThoughtsonCommonToad:
Science and reason have exactly the same foibles as religion.



You're confusing two distinct problems:

1. Science as a method for separating fact from fiction.
2. Dressing up bold social agendas in lab coats and test tubes to fool people into believing dodgy claims.

#1 is the enemy of #2. You seem to see #1 and #2 as allies.

Racism is a prime example of this. Evolution suggests that race is important.
Quite the opposite, actually.

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