The atheist delusion2. Comment #144015 by Laurie Fraser on March 14, 2008 at 9:48 pm
3. Comment #144018 by MelM on March 14, 2008 at 10:11 pm
How about this little bit of treason to humanity:Both science and religion are systems of symbols that serve human needs - in the case of science, for prediction and control.
Religions have served many purposes, but at bottom they answer to a need for meaning that is met by myth rather than explanation.
4. Comment #144022 by Laurie Fraser on March 14, 2008 at 10:19 pm
5. Comment #144026 by Mango on March 14, 2008 at 10:24 pm
6. Comment #144028 by nother person on March 14, 2008 at 10:27 pm
I could swear I've read this before... Are they not only figuratively repeating themselves, but actually literally re-publishing the same tired crap?7. Comment #144030 by Lenny on March 14, 2008 at 10:47 pm
Whenever I see things like this, Sam's argument that we shouldn't call ourselves atheists becomes more convincing.8. Comment #144031 by MelM on March 14, 2008 at 10:47 pm
These evil atheists:Zealous atheism renews some of the worst features of Christianity and Islam. Just as much as these religions, it is a project of universal conversion.Give me a break! Universal conversion is a normal and, basically, rational desire of a philosophy and is not one of the worst features of these religions. It isn't Dawkins that's running Jesus camps, trying to replace 2500 years of natural science with theistic drivel, or training jihadis. If one doesn't accept Dawkins' theories, there will be no executions, or eternal fire; he isn't advocating shooting "unbelievers." Really, I don't see how Hitler and Stalin could have come to power without the preceding religious "virtues" of unreason and sacrifice.
9. Comment #144033 by wasabi on March 14, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Heh. I like this article. I find it well written. Yes, we all do know that logic and reason are.... more logical and reasonable. But seriously, do we all think that we can force all humans to be logical and reasonable? They are not. Some people simply are not INTs. They don't want to be. They don't need to be. And all our attempts to convince them that they should be reasonable will fail. Teach your ideas. Try to build agreement. But why do us Atheists hate these people so much?10. Comment #144035 by MelM on March 14, 2008 at 11:02 pm
Why do I hate them so much? Well, I'll submit this evidence from a recent PZ post. In my first comment above, I turned the statement around so as to read it from my perspective.11. Comment #144037 by tobybarrett on March 14, 2008 at 11:46 pm
12. Comment #144042 by lievemebe on March 15, 2008 at 1:01 am
But might there not be a connection between the attempt to eradicate religion and the loss of freedom?
Knowledge grows, but human beings remain much the same.
rarely inquiring where these freedoms have come from, and never allowing that religion may have had a part in creating them.
In today's anxiety about religion, it has been forgotten that most of the faith-based violence of the past century was secular in nature
These secular terrorists believed they were expediting a historical process from which will come a world better than any that has ever existed.
Islamism is nowhere near a danger of the magnitude of those that were faced down in the 20th century.
Religion has not gone away. Repressing it is like repressing sex, a self-defeating enterprise.
13. Comment #144043 by Steve Zara on March 15, 2008 at 1:06 am
Comment #144033 by wasabiBut seriously, do we all think that we can force all humans to be logical and reasonable? They are not.
Try to build agreement. But why do us Atheists hate these people so much?
Today secular faith is ebbing, and it is the apostles of unbelief who are left stranded on the beach.
14. Comment #144044 by mmurray on March 15, 2008 at 1:07 am
15. Comment #144058 by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy on March 15, 2008 at 1:51 am
"But the idea of free will that informs liberal notions of personal autonomy is biblical in origin (think of the Genesis story). The belief that exercising free will is part of being human is a legacy of faith, and like most varieties of atheism today, Pullman's is a derivative of Christianity."16. Comment #144059 by davem on March 15, 2008 at 1:54 am
"Secularisation is in retreat"17. Comment #144062 by AshtonBlack on March 15, 2008 at 2:10 am
18. Comment #144072 by Logicel on March 15, 2008 at 2:56 am
19. Comment #144076 by mandelstam on March 15, 2008 at 3:15 am
Once again someone completely misses the point. I would get angry at how lazy these articles are if I was not overwhelmed by exasparation and ennui....20. Comment #144085 by mixmastergaz on March 15, 2008 at 4:12 am
21. Comment #144086 by rod-the-farmer on March 15, 2008 at 4:14 am
Many militants of the secular cause look astonishingly like clergy. Worse: like caricatures of clergy
enormous money-spinners
22. Comment #144090 by Corylus on March 15, 2008 at 4:26 am
There is the claim of religious authorities, also made by atheist regimes, to decide how people can express their sexuality, control their fertility and end their lives, which should be rejected categorically. Nobody should be allowed to curtail freedom in these ways, and no religion has the right to break the peace.Wha? Is his saying that China's one child policy is enacted because of atheism? Is his saying that atheists generally seek to dictate how people express sexuality? Dear me.
23. Comment #144092 by Ian Bamlett on March 15, 2008 at 4:34 am
24. Comment #144096 by MrPickwick on March 15, 2008 at 4:45 am
25. Comment #144097 by D'Arcy on March 15, 2008 at 4:58 am
The incomprehensibility of the divine is at the heart of Eastern Christianity,
26. Comment #144100 by black wolf on March 15, 2008 at 5:17 am
The 9/11 hijackers saw themselves as martyrs in a religious tradition, and western opinion has accepted their self-image.
27. Comment #144104 by black wolf on March 15, 2008 at 5:26 am
But the idea of free will that informs liberal notions of personal autonomy is biblical in origin (think of the Genesis story). The belief that exercising free will is part of being human is a legacy of faith, and like most varieties of atheism today, Pullman's is a derivative of Christianity.
28. Comment #144107 by notsobad on March 15, 2008 at 5:28 am
29. Comment #144109 by Terminally Nerdy on March 15, 2008 at 5:35 am
Someone please help me point out the fallacy of the 'science as an excuse for abuses' statement. Yes, we're all aware of what deluded minds can do with superficial notions of science, it's terrible. CLEARLY, though, science provides far more benefits that harms, not to mention its based in empirical facts. It can be vetted and verified in a way that is fundamentally impossible for religion. The comforts or benefits of religion, however, are such that can be more than adequately substituted by science. Except that you gotta think about them to benefit by them. The required thinking gets us atheists every time. Some people just aren't willing to make the effort.30. Comment #144111 by black wolf on March 15, 2008 at 5:41 am
The incomprehensibility of the divine ...
in spiritual matters truth is ineffable...
...and if religion is hardwired in the species, it is difficult to see how a different kind of education could alter this. Yet Dawkins seems convinced that if it were not inculcated in schools and families, religion would die out. This is a view that has more in common with a certain type of fundamentalist theology...
31. Comment #144112 by Jack Rawlinson on March 15, 2008 at 5:47 am
32. Comment #144113 by Vaal on March 15, 2008 at 5:49 am
The incomprehensibility of the divine
33. Comment #144116 by Apathy personified on March 15, 2008 at 6:02 am
34. Comment #144127 by Inferno on March 15, 2008 at 6:39 am
Human biology has not changed greatly over recorded history, and if religion is hardwired in the species, it is difficult to see how a different kind of education could alter this
He gives less attention to the fact that some of the worst atrocities of modern times were committed by regimes that claimed scientific sanction for their crimes.
It is clear that he wants to eliminate all traces of religion from public institutions.
With the arrival of Christianity, it came to be believed that history had a predetermined goal, which was human salvation. Though they suppress their religious content, secular humanists continue to cling to similar beliefs.
it has been forgotten that most of the faith-based violence of the past century was secular in nature.
He used Christian antisemitic demonology in his persecution of Jews, and the churches collaborated with him to a horrifying degree. But it was the Nazi belief in race as a scientific category that opened the way to a crime without parallel in history. Hitler's world-view was that of many semi-literate people in interwar Europe, a hotchpotch of counterfeit science and animus towards religion. There can be no reasonable doubt that this was a type of atheism
Ridden with conflicts and lacking the industrial base of communism and nazism, Islamism is nowhere near a danger of the magnitude of those that were faced down in the 20th century.
the ugly fantasy that the Earth exists to serve humans, which most secular humanists share.
35. Comment #144128 by Foggerty on March 15, 2008 at 6:39 am
In The God Delusion, Dawkins attempts to explain the appeal of religion in terms of the theory of memes, vaguely defined conceptual units that compete with one another in a parody of natural selection. He recognises that, because humans have a universal tendency to religious belief, it must have had some evolutionary advantage, but today, he argues, it is perpetuated mainly through bad education. From a Darwinian standpoint, the crucial role Dawkins gives to education is puzzling. Human biology has not changed greatly over recorded history, and if religion is hardwired in the species, it is difficult to see how a different kind of education could alter this. Yet Dawkins seems convinced that if it were not inculcated in schools and families, religion would die out.
36. Comment #144130 by Steve Zara on March 15, 2008 at 6:46 am
Comment #144128 by FoggertyHe then goes on to imply that Dawkins suggested that religion *itself* was selected for darwinian reasons, again, missing the point and getting things horribly wrong.
I'll hold off judging Daniel Dennet until I've read his books though :-)
37. Comment #144133 by Double Bass Atheist on March 15, 2008 at 6:53 am
WHY DO THESE CRACKPOTS DELIBERATELY MISINTERPRET EVERY ARGUMENT WE HAVE THEN TELL US WE ARE WRONG BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE INTELLECTUAL CAPACITY TO LISTEN TO WHAT WE SAY
38. Comment #144136 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on March 15, 2008 at 7:05 am
He gives less attention to the fact that some of the worst atrocities of modern times were committed by regimes that claimed scientific sanction for their crimes. Nazi "scientific racism"
"We do not accept the absurd superstition �" propagated for different though sometimes overlapping reasons by capitalists, liberals, Marxists and theologians - of human equality. ...This must not be taken to mean or imply that we believe that any particular ethnic group or race is 'superior' or 'inferior'; we simply recognise that �" as any biologist would be able to predict, and the new medical science of pharmacogenetics is now confirming �" human populations which have undergone micro-evolutionary changes while being separated for many thousands of years have developed differences in many fields of endeavour, susceptibility to health problems, behavioural tendencies and such like." British National Party: Rebuilding British Democracy general election manifesto 2005, p. 17
39. Comment #144138 by Spinoza on March 15, 2008 at 7:28 am
40. Comment #144140 by Vaal on March 15, 2008 at 7:31 am
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth
the ugly fantasy that the Earth exists to serve humans, which most secular humanists share
41. Comment #144150 by Geoff on March 15, 2008 at 8:04 am
42. Comment #144171 by Dr Benway on March 15, 2008 at 8:43 am
Science and reason 'can' make all horrific kinds of things acceptable.I think you're confusing "science" with "sciency." We all know sciency when we see it: white coats, test tubes, machines, maths, measuring instruments, etc.
The fact that it was justified by science, stemming from Galton's eugenics, is important...Facts about the world are just that, whether those facts are established by scientists, historians, journalists, priests, or your car mechanic. Facts are either well established, somewhat established, or false. Some facts may seem more sciency than others. But branding a fact "scientific" adds no particular meaning.
We can pretend we are logical and rational but we just aren't.We suffer certain cognitive limitations that we don't always appreciate and that likely will be with us for a long time. We invented rules of evidence to help us overcome these limitations.
43. Comment #144193 by Roy_H on March 15, 2008 at 9:42 am
44. Comment #144195 by Richard Morgan on March 15, 2008 at 9:43 am
MUSIC UPDATE45. Comment #144209 by John Desclin on March 15, 2008 at 10:35 am
To Mixmastergaz's comment 21 #14408546. Comment #144210 by phasmagigas on March 15, 2008 at 10:39 am
There is an inheritance of anthropocentrism, the ugly fantasy that the Earth exists to serve humans, which most secular humanists share
The attempt to eradicate religion, however, only leads to it reappearing in grotesque and degraded forms. A credulous belief in world revolution, universal democracy or the occult powers of mobile phones is more offensive to reason than the mysteries of religion, and less likely to survive in years to come.
47. Comment #144213 by oriole on March 15, 2008 at 11:18 am
I've posted a response to Gray's article at the Guardian website under my user name there, BaltimoreOriole. Here's the link:48. Comment #144214 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on March 15, 2008 at 11:18 am
The set of facts accepted as true by application of this method provides a description of the world. But this description prescribes nothing.
But branding a fact "scientific" adds no particular meaning.
"We do not accept the absurd superstition propagated for different though sometimes overlapping reasons by capitalists, liberals, Marxists and theologians - of human equality. ...This must not be taken to mean or imply that we believe that any particular ethnic group or race is 'superior' or 'inferior'; we simply recognise that as any biologist would be able to predict, and the new medical science of pharmacogenetics is now confirming human populations which have undergone micro-evolutionary changes while being separated for many thousands of years have developed differences in many fields of endeavour, susceptibility to health problems, behavioural tendencies and such like."
British National Party: Rebuilding British Democracy general election manifesto 2005, p. 17
Science itself is merely a method for separating fact from fiction.
49. Comment #144215 by youmemeyou on March 15, 2008 at 11:37 am
ThoughtsonCommonToad:"Science itself is merely a method for separating fact from fiction."50. Comment #144217 by Dr Benway on March 15, 2008 at 11:38 am
Science and reason have exactly the same foibles as religion.
Racism is a prime example of this. Evolution suggests that race is important.Quite the opposite, actually.
1. Comment #144014 by MelM on March 14, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Faith is the greatest enemy reason has. Religion creates a milieu of unreason that accomodated the hatred for reason by Hitler and the suppression of it by Stalin. Neither of these regimes had any problem fitting the sacrifice of the individual to the state into their national religious backgrounds. It is irrationality across the board that is my enemy. Astrology is a minor problem; alien abduction stories, and crop circles may come and go but the vice of faith is the most persistent danger to reason, science, Western Civilization, and freedom. I am anti-religion because I'm pro-reason, pro-science, and pro-freedom.Other Comments by MelM